Investigation Journalism - is it dying or dead?

Biggins

The more I scan the printed newspapers and see the like of Jordan rubbish and Strictly boring Ballroom gossip, I keep asking myself is investigation journalism dying or dead?

It seems to me that only a few papers now print even fewer articles that have and substance and research beyond what the fcuk Britney is wearing (or not!) or how brain dead (or "vacant") is skank Paris Hilton and who she is banging this week!

What the hell has happened to the good years of investigative journalism?
Bring back Woodward and Bernstein to teach the mob today how to be a decent journalist. If half their likes existed today, there would be a LOT less of the crap being pulled by our crooks in white collars!

All we are getting today is the latest regurgitated news as events unfold - which is fair enough to some extent - but in an era of the internet, hell, I know about current events happening before the newspapers are printed the next day so 90% of their article are null and void to surfers interest alone!

Is there any one decent newspaper out there today that can really be called a newspaper worthy of having decent investigation journalists? I despair!
Its all just dumbed down fodder for the sheep population!

Wazdakka

It's unfortunate to say, but in the age of free information investigative journalism just doesn't pay off.
However, often pandering to the celebrity obsessed, fickle, unwashed masses does.

It's actually becoming a serious problem in a few places.
Investigative journalists are probably the one crowd of people who keep a close eye on politicians.
We almost rely on them to tell us if an elected official is abusing their power, embezzling ect..

I was in SanFrancisco a few months ago and due to the economy a lot of their local newspapers have shut down.
Apparently most of the local politicians are basically going un checked and having a field day.

humanji

To be honest, it's probably for the best. Think about all the corruption that's going on around us that we're fully aware of. Nothing really ever comes of it and you don't see many being brought to justice. Finding out that there's even more corruption going on that nobody will be arrested for would just be depressing.

dr.bollocko

OMG!
AMY WINEHOUSE GOT A BOOB JOB!

Wazdakka

humanji wrote: »

To be honest, it's probably for the best. Think about all the corruption that's going on around us that we're fully aware of. Nothing really ever comes of it and you don't see many being brought to justice. Finding out that there's even more corruption going on that nobody will be arrested for would just be depressing.

Ahh The Ostrich approach to life.

Cant say I agree with you..

But I can say that if I ever become an elected official..
I want my entire constituency to be made up of people like you.

phasers

I spend my days reading about Jedward tbh

minidazzler

Who needs investigative when you can just believe what blogs say and take them at their word.

Much more convienient! :P

super_furry

At least the Sunday World is still presenting us with a seemingly never-ending stream of Batman villians each week.

Palmerstown_guy

We are not allowed to be intelligent and thoughtful in today's Ireland.

The press just lives off the American gossip machine most of the time which is sad.

Biggins

Biggins wrote: »

I know about current events happening before the newspapers are printed the next day so 90% of their article are null and void to surfers interest alone!

Thats the problem, though. It's a hell of a lot cheaper to host a news website or to syndicate a news story from Reuters or whatever than it is to pay for a journalist and his expense account to spend a month digging up dirt and getting the real scoop. You're giving out about it and yet you're part of the problem. When's the last time you bought a paper? How do you expect these journalists to be paid if you get all your news for free on the web?

lucylu

investigative journalism now resorts to trawling through Bebo or Facebook pages of victims, their relatives , perpetrators of crimes or tragedies.
The only genuine investigate journalism appears to be on Prime Time.

humanji

Wazdakka wrote: »

Ahh The Ostrich approach to life.

Cant say I agree with you..

But I can say that if I ever become an elected official..
I want my entire constituency to be made up of people like you.

You wouldn't need people like me. This is Ireland. You can be as corrupt as you like and tell everyone about it. Nothing will ever happen to you as long as you're wealthy. That's why there's little need for investigative journalism. Once people can be made accountable for their actions then there's a need. Until then, it's a pointless exercise.

AnonoBoy

Sometimes I wonder if there's any actual regular journalism going on let alone investigative.

gerry28

Yeah and even the broad sheets are dumbing down.

I used to enjoy reading the sunday independant. But for the las t year article after article has been populist drivel about the need for public sector pay cuts.

Brendan oconnor and the rest of them must be laughin at their employer.... getting paid to regurgitate the same old rubbish week after week!!!

not bakunin

I don't think that it's all that fair to claim that investigative journalism is nearly dead. Fair enough pop culture "icons" seem to have been filling reams of newsprint recently, but maybe you arn't looking in all the right places.
Also, investigative journalism is completely different to writing a news story or a feature piece. There are many legal loopholes which the journalist has to consider before anything can go to print. Investigative stories will often take months of pinstaking detail. I'm fairly sure that there are plenty of cases where good stories had to be scrapped due to legal constraints.

Here are a few examples of good investigative journalism recently:

-The Tribune's revealing and questioning of John O'Donoghue's lavish expenses account.
-Still on the Bull, the Sunday World recently revealed how he had been in a state car which was caught doing 200kph near Castleisland in 2000. O'Donoghue told the Dail that he had not been a passenger in the car, despite the claims of the Garda that stopped the car. That Garda was later froced to resign, after he was "hounded" by management. O'Donoghue is now sueing the paper.
-Various English papers, left by The Gaurdian revealing the circumstances in which Ian Tomlinson died
- http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090622/bauer some stories like that.

That's all I can think of right now, yeah it's not Watergate, but that was setting the bar fairly high to be fair!

Aidric

As advertising revenues continue to fall and more journalists get let go, I don't see things improving anytime soon.

ei.sdraob

due to internet and mobile phones its dead

Biggins

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats the problem, though. It's a hell of a lot cheaper to host a news website or to syndicate a news story from Reuters or whatever than it is to pay for a journalist and his expense account to spend a month digging up dirt and getting the real scoop. You're giving out about it and yet you're part of the problem. When's the last time you bought a paper? How do you expect these journalists to be paid if you get all your news for free on the web?

Its a vicious circle . If they continue to produce the trash they do, others don't buy their rag - and - if we don't buy their rag, some claim they can't afford for deeper investigations.
The cycle has to be broken at its source!

not bakunin wrote: »

I don't think that it's all that fair to claim that investigative journalism is nearly dead. Fair enough pop culture "icons" seem to have been filling reams of newsprint recently, but maybe you aren't looking in all the right places.
Also, investigative journalism is completely different to writing a news story or a feature piece. There are many legal loopholes which the journalist has to consider before anything can go to print. Investigative stories will often take months of painstaking detail. I'm fairly sure that there are plenty of cases where good stories had to be scrapped due to legal constraints.

Very true. I know of one VERY high TD who's antics is pure shame filled madness but has yet to be reported on so yes, I believe other cases like that do exist.

not bakunin wrote: »

Here are a few examples of good investigative journalism recently:

-The Tribune's revealing and questioning of John O'Donoghue's lavish expenses account.
-Still on the Bull, the Sunday World recently revealed how he had been in a state car which was caught doing 200kph near Castle Island in 2000. O'Donoghue told the Dail that he had not been a passenger in the car, despite the claims of the Garda that stopped the car. That Garda was later froced to resign, after he was "hounded" by management. O'Donoghue is now suing the paper.
-Various English papers, left by The Gaurdian revealing the circumstances in which Ian Tomlinson died
- http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090622/bauer some stories like that.

That's all I can think of right now, yeah it's not Watergate, but that was setting the bar fairly high to be fair!

While good to see, sadly they have become the rare items rather than the every day items.
I wouldn't expect them to be in a paper EVERY day but at least more often than not, more so would be nice.

---

As the internet brings us all the latest news stories more so than ever before, maybe if some of the newspapers actually took a step backwards and brought us more deeper investigative reports than the same across the media circle sound bite rubbish they spew out, more that are willing to kick their brains up a gear would be inclined to fork out money for something that is not just there any more.

Morlar

I think the closest we get to it in Ireland thesedays is freedom of information requests (which are coincidentally among the most expensive to pursue and also give the politicians in question prior warning of stories coming down the pipeline).

Also worth noting that these only came about months after identical stories of politicians expense scandals hit the headlines in the UK.

Prior to the FOI ones - the most notable ones about Ireland that spring to mind would be the big scandals like the haughey telephone bugging, or the NI security forces & loyalist paramilitary collusion ones from years ago, even then were more extensively investigated & reported by the UK media like panorama etc. I think Ireland in general is very poorly served by it's news media.

Morlar

Now that I think of if the Sunday World is a good example. Yes it's a tabloid rag but alongside the jiggling tits they did the most work in highlighting crime issues in recent years.

stovelid

Morlar wrote: »

but alongside the jiggling tits they did the most work in highlighting crime issues in recent years.

Glorifying them would be a better word.

Morlar

stovelid wrote: »

Glorifying them would be a better word.

I don't agree with that. MTV glorifies gangs & gang criminal culture relentlessly imo. I don't see how the likes of paul williams etc glorify them by exposing their activities.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Morlar wrote: »

Now that I think of if the Sunday World is a good example. Yes it's a tabloid rag but alongside the jiggling tits they did the most work in highlighting crime issues in recent years.

It would, if they didn't make the **** up. When you're preaching about morality, standards and honesty, you can't have lies and chat-up lines on the next page.

Morlar

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

It would, if they didn't make the **** up. When you're preaching about morality, standards and honesty, you can't have lies and chat-up lines on the next page.

The fact that they have sleazy adverts is obvious & irrelevant. Do you have an example of a gang crime in Ireland stories that they invented?

Would you really say that inventing stories was an accurate generalisation of their crime coverage ? If so we can agree to disagree on that.

stovelid

Morlar wrote: »

I don't agree with that. MTV glorifies gangs & gang criminal culture relentlessly imo. I don't see how the likes of paul williams etc glorify them by exposing their activities.

I don't think it's as obvious a case as your first example, but there is definitely a subtle titillation in the coverage. It's a common tabloid trait to simultaneously moralize and titillate, whether for sex or crime stories. They're not stupid. It's a pretty accurate approximation of how the readership feel: they abhor the crimes, but want the gory details. There is also the fact that scobes and probably the criminals themselves actually like the overall lionization of their activities, even if it bites them sometimes when they're exposed or whatever.

There is also the uncomfortable Veronica Guerinization of Paul Williams to contend with: there is a serious vanity and cult of personality in his self-appointed position as scourge of the criminals.

I'm not sure that the police (at least in private) are that fond of this kind of rabble coverage - perhaps I'm wrong.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Morlar wrote: »

The fact that they have sleazy adverts is obvious & irrelevant. Do you have an example of a gang crime in Ireland stories that they invented?

Would you really say that inventing stories was an accurate generalisation of their crime coverage ? If so we can agree to disagree on that.

To a certain extent, we can. I was talling more about the generalised stories. I read one about an alleged pedo trying to abduct a girl in "south west Ireland" No names, no conrete information as to when or where or who.

Another was a sex-shop that had been closed down in Dundalk. No information as to where it was.

Don't know enough about the gangland crime situation to comment.

And the sleazy adverts IS relevant if half your paper is anti-sleaze.

Lux23

Its not dead. I know this from personal experience. There is certainly less of it going on but this has more to do with PR companies than just lazy journalism. The problem with investigative journalism today is that so many articles in the better newsapers in the Times, Examiner, Independent etc are based on a random quote from someone who has very little idea of what the real situation is. Then they just rehash the story so far. But there are some good fearless journalists out there.

For example look at Nick Webbe and Shane Ross who broke the original Fas story, they worked on that for months. And I would imagine if you think back on most scandals from the last year or so there is journalist somewhere who unearthed a piece of information and either ran the story or forced the government or whoever to come clean. Its sort of harder to get these stories out these days because its the done thing to inform the other party of what you plan to do which normally give them a bit of time to come clean and put a bit of spin on it.

So no I don't think investigative journalism is dead.

MementoMori

I think a fair bit might be down to the decline of "old media" and the related decrease in revenue.

Investigative journalism is a lot more expensive and time-consuming compared to pulling stories off the wire services/reprinting press releases/printing gossip ****e.

Any numpty who can type can do the above whereas it takes time and money to conduct any sort of decent investigative work.

Potentially down the line I wouldnt be too surprised if the new media steps in. Seems to be happening somewhat in the States. However that poses certain difficulties in Ireland.

OT: The cost for freedom of information requests in this country is a disgrace and is effectively being used to muzzle journalists.

Turd Ferguson

I get all my news from The Onion

Morlar

Lux23 wrote: »

... Nick Webbe and Shane Ross who broke the original Fas story, they worked on that for months.

The point also needs to be made that many Irish journalists were along for the ride on those junkets & prior to the stories breaking kept schtum.

Re the earlier point - I have no interest in p.williams delusions of grandeur. I am not referring to his personality or ego. FYI In Dublin and Private Eye are other examples of publications that contain (or contained sleazy adverts).

Biggins

MementoMori wrote: »

OT: The cost for freedom of information requests in this country is a disgrace and is effectively being used to muzzle journalists.

Couldn't agree more and so does a lot of journalists.
They are extremely angry over it.

orourkeda

Look at the title of this thread. Perhaps we should investigate how to use a dictionary?

Morlar

orourkeda wrote: »

Look at the title of this thread. Perhaps we should investigate how to use a dictionary?

Whistleblower !!

dr.bollocko

orourkeda wrote: »

Look at the title of this thread. Perhaps we should investigate how to use a dictionary?

Dictionaries do not work that way.
All of those words are in the dictionary.

TheScribbler

humanji wrote: »

You wouldn't need people like me. This is Ireland. You can be as corrupt as you like and tell everyone about it. Nothing will ever happen to you as long as you're wealthy. That's why there's little need for investigative journalism. Once people can be made accountable for their actions then there's a need. Until then, it's a pointless exercise.

Ummmm. Not so much wealth as, 'connected,' even if wealth is a feature of being connected in the first place. In some case the wealth follows the connectedness rather than precedes it!

TheScribbler

I believe there is always a need for good investigative journalism. However I am at the age that I have become very sceptical of official government utterances on so many things of public interest, but one cannot rely on the impartiality of tabloid newspapers either.

Good journalism remains the preserve of quality newspapers and magazines.

mud

I'm in my 1st year of a journalism undergrad.

Ten weeks in and totally disillusioned

I had a very different idea of what journalism was all about before I started this degree.

Wazdakka

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Dictionaries do not work that way.
All of those words are in the dictionary.

Oh yea?

Lux23

mud wrote: »

I'm in my 1st year of a journalism undergrad.

Ten weeks in and totally disillusioned

I had a very different idea of what journalism was all about before I started this degree.

I have a qualification in journalism and don't let what you are studying colour your view of the job. Most people teaching journalists are failed journalists themselves who never really had the killer instinct, great at the theory but its one of those jobs where theory doesn't go very far.

mud

Lux23 wrote: »

I have a qualification in journalism and don't let what you are studying colour your view of the job. Most people teaching journalists are failed journalists themselves who never really had the killer instinct, great at the theory but its one of those jobs where theory doesn't go very far.

thanks for that, my main fear is that I don't have said 'killer instinct', don't want to write about who fell out of where holding whos you know what etc

The more I'm examining newspapers from an academic point of view, the more I realise that it's a jaded, jaded business, who's going to believe the truth when there are so so many lies . . .

not bakunin

mud wrote: »

The more I'm examining newspapers from an academic point of view, the more I realise that it's a jaded, jaded business, who's going to believe the truth when there are so so many lies . . .

.....and the cynical businessman who owns the paper will say who gives a fuuck so long as people keep reading and all that lovely juicy advertising revenue keeps flowing in..

jdivision

Lux23 wrote: »

The problem with investigative journalism today is that so many articles in the better newsapers in the Times, Examiner, Independent etc are based on a random quote from someone who has very little idea of what the real situation is. Then they just rehash the story so far. But there are some good fearless journalists out there.

In fairness if there was three newspapers less likely to break a story of any significance then you named them. Come on, they just rehash press releases, their editors are universally laughed at within the media. the Irish Times is embarrassing.
If people don't feel the levels of investigative journalism are where they were at then they need to look at how media is consumed, ie in many ways it's become free so costs, meaning salaries and staffing levels, are being driven down. That way there is no way people can have the time to follow up on stuff properly and investigate it properly, they have to do their daily quota of work instead. The public has chosen it wants crap, news agendas reflect that.
And then a lot of the time RTE and the dailies in particular are lazy. In RTE there are many parts that don't even get the Sundays so there's this news lapse. as a sunday journalist you feel like you've broken a big story, you get pickup on Today FM and Newstalk initially and then RTE ignores you because the intern in the newsroom hasn't gotten the paper (this does happen, some sections of RTE don't get the Sundays despite fact that the news agenda for the week is generally set there, obviously i'm excluding the sindo and red tops from this point). I've experienced this many times, where I've broken stories on a sunday, somebody else has repeated them later in the week (with nothing new!) and suddenly it's the lead story on Six One. The Funnniest was rte's own rezoning application that led the bulletin, six weeks (I think) after it was first reported. But hey RTE could "exclusively" reveal it. There's a lot of laziness out there but also there isn't a single radio or TV journalist that I'd rate in any way.
mud, feel free to pm me if you want any advice. will help any way i can.

jdivision

Just as an aside, the result of all this has been the FF crap that we've all gotten used to. It's directly related to the dumbing down of standards, and high up people in journalism get away with it. Soundbite from Govt, soundbite from opposition, reply from Govt. end of story. No critical facilities whatsoever. How often does a paper run a lead story saying "political sources say"exactly what we knew already.
This was how Bertienomics worked. Union claims money, bertie says no and "won't back down", union threatens strike, bertie backs down. Good times don't last, bertie's non climb downs mean country bankrupt. The embarrassment that people voted for this ****. I feel a certain amount of dignity that I never did.

orourkeda

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Dictionaries do not work that way.
All of those words are in the dictionary.

They're spelt correctly in the dictionary.

orourkeda

mud wrote: »

I'm in my 1st year of a journalism undergrad.

Ten weeks in and totally disillusioned

I had a very different idea of what journalism was all about before I started this degree.

Wait until you finish your degree and start looking for a job.

You won't know what real disillusionment is until then.

mud

orourkeda wrote: »

Wait until you finish your degree and start looking for a job.

You won't know what real disillusionment is until then.

eh thanks?

Bigdeadlydave

It depends were you look. I'm a subscriber to National Geographic and they do quite a lot. This month their was a particularly good one exposing the worlds No 1 animal smuggler.

Nodin

dr.bollocko wrote: »

OMG!
AMY WINEHOUSE GOT A BOOB JOB!

Yep. New gates out the front of a burning bungalow.

Nodin

stovelid wrote: »

I don't think it's as obvious a case as your first example, but there is definitely a subtle titillation in the coverage. It's a common tabloid trait to simultaneously moralize and titillate, whether for sex or crime stories. They're not stupid. It's a pretty accurate approximation of how the readership feel: they abhor the crimes, but want the gory details. There is also the fact that scobes and probably the criminals themselves actually like the overall lionization of their activities, even if it bites them sometimes when they're exposed or whatever.

There is also the uncomfortable Veronica Guerinization of Paul Williams to contend with: there is a serious vanity and cult of personality in his self-appointed position as scourge of the criminals.

I'm not sure that the police (at least in private) are that fond of this kind of rabble coverage - perhaps I'm wrong.

Stick in "exaggerate" there and you're bang on.

Gingervitis

The Wire Season 5 tbh. David Simon certainly nails it.

JuliusCaesar

Biggins wrote: »

The more I scan the printed newspapers and see the like of Jordan rubbish and Strictly boring Ballroom gossip, I keep asking myself is investigation journalism dying or dead?

It seems to me that only a few papers now print even fewer articles that have and substance and research beyond what the fcuk Britney is wearing (or not!) or how brain dead (or "vacant") is skank Paris Hilton and who she is banging this week!

What the hell has happened to the good years of investigative journalism?
Bring back Woodward and Bernstein to teach the mob today how to be a decent journalist. If half their likes existed today, there would be a LOT less of the crap being pulled by our crooks in white collars!

All we are getting today is the latest regurgitated news as events unfold - which is fair enough to some extent - but in an era of the internet, hell, I know about current events happening before the newspapers are printed the next day so 90% of their article are null and void to surfers interest alone!

Is there any one decent newspaper out there today that can really be called a newspaper worthy of having decent investigation journalists? I despair!
Its all just dumbed down fodder for the sheep population!

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