Cut back on Foreign Aid?

Time to cut it back a bit?

Department of Foreign Affairs

Irish Aid – the Irish Government’s official development cooperation programme – it is still a significant focus of the programme with some €5m being spent in India each year

Full circle: India buys 200 tons gold from IMF - India Business - Biz - The Times of India

India buys 200 tons gold from IMF

Nuclear Weapons - India Nuclear Forces

the NRDC estimates that India has a stockpile of approximately 30-35 nuclear warheads and claims that India is producing additional nuclear materials. Joseph Cirincione at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace (3) estimates that India has produced enough weapons-grade plutonium for 50-90 nuclear weapons and a smaller but unknown quantity of weapons-grade uranium. Weapons-grade plutonium production takes place at the Bhabha Atomic Research Center,

Sounds to me like Trócaire, Goal and Concern are pissing into the wind in some of these countries and quite frankly being made fools of.

How much would we save? Does charity begin at home or do these people need it more than we do? Personally I`d prefer free trade agreements with these countries rather than sending handouts

Tipsy Mac

I think any country with a bad track record of corruption shouldn't get one red cent. Countries like Ethiopia need a massive regime change and a full demilitrisation before any outside funds should be spent in them, since Live Aid in the 80's they have only got worse. I also don't think any state funding should go to aid organisations which spread religious propaganda and backward teachings, ie Trocaire and it's stance on contraception.

Acoustic

look after your own before you look after others

my advice

ronbyrne2005

Acoustic wrote: »

look after your own before you look after others

my advice

"your own"? They are our own, our own race that is , the human race. Dole here is nirvana to 90% of the third world

mikemac

Isn't is a set percentage?
So as GDP decreases so does the money spent

Though I wonder why they need to lease a massive building on O'Connell St, Dublin, rent can't be that cheap.
Why not get offices out in some business park and spend the difference on foreign aid if they are that concerned.

jimmmy

Charity should begin at home. Its absurd we borrow money on top of the fortune we are already borrowing in order for the state to give it to "poorer" countries. Not that much reaches those really in need in those countries anyway. Let them get aid from those countries we borrow money from, instead of saddling our grandchildren with the debt.

ronbyrne2005

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

"your own"? They are our own, our own race that is , the human race. Dole here is nirvana to 90% of the third world

Yup but should we be subsidising Indias space program??

ei.sdraob

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup but should we be subsidising Indias space program??

hmmm space'y curry

this was brought up in another thread, why is money being given to countries who spend a fortune of arms, India is not bad compared to Ethiopia now, at least in India they have a democracy and recently a portion of population was pulled out of poverty Ethiopia on the other hand is a complete basketcase

we spend as much on Aid worldwide as Ethiopia spends on buying weapons to kill own citizens, (erm ethnically cleanse them in Darfur)

skearon

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup but should we be subsidising Indias space program??

Should we be subsidising beer and fags for native Irish leeches who never contribute anything to society?

If its a choice between fags for the lazy or food for the starving, then the only answer is food for the starving.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1114/aid.html

A group of 30 TDs and Senators has called on the Government not to cut overseas aid in the Budget on 9 December.
The group includes former Fianna Fáil ministers Rory O'Hanlon and Michael Woods, who is currently Chairman of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs.

The letter is signed by a total of six Fianna Fáil TDs and by Ciarán Cuffe and Dan Boyle of the Green Party.

Members of Fine Gael, Labour, Sinn Féin and some Independents also put their name to the letter.
Ireland's total development aid spend for 2009 would be €696m

segaBOY

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

"your own"? They are our own, our own race that is , the human race. Dole here is nirvana to 90% 99.999999% of the third world

FYP

skearon

skearon wrote: »

Should we be subsidising beer and fags for native Irish leeches who never contribute anything to society?

If its a choice between fags for the lazy or food for the starving, then the only answer is food for the starving.

Should we do either? can we afford to do it anymore?
http://www.csa.gov.et/pdf/Cen2007_firstdraft.pdf

Hmmmn population of Ethiopia was 32 million in 1975 they have been starving ever since yet today the population is estimated to be around 78 million today.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:ETH&q=population+ethiopia

Dannyboy83

Did anyone see the primetime special on emigration?
http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1059959

Perhaps we should be sending some of that aid to those Irish organisations helping to care for Irish people in London etc.

dvpower

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Did anyone see the primetime special on emigration?
http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1059959

Perhaps we should be sending some of that aid to those Irish organisations helping to care for Irish people in London etc.

I'm pretty sure that we do.

SLUSK

I'm in favour of getting rid of all foreign aid funded by taxpayers. This does not mean I'm against foreign aid. Foreign aid should be handled privately and also with the mess Ireland is in this country can't afford it.

As an individual I can't be giving money to poor people if I'm skint, a nation can't either really.

cavedave

What are the most effective forms of foreign aid? If the government cannot efficiently spend your tax money here I doubt they will be able to spend it well in Ethiopia. Does government aid spending crowd out charity donation by individuals?

There is a good argument on foreign aid here. It brings up the point that allowing immigration may be the best way to help the third world.

Cannibal Ox

Long post

It's hard to argue for aid in this particular moment of economic depression because, the way that we've become over the past twenty years, people want you to convince them about what they gain from giving aid, what they get out of it, and that particular kind of (capitalist! :pac:) logic is in a lot of ways the antithesis of aid itself.

Which makes arguing for aid difficult. I haven't seen any of the aid adverts in Ireland recently, but I'm sure they follow the format of showing you some poor person, probably looking malnourished and maybe cradling a child who is looking equally, if not more, malnourished, and trying to get you to sympathize with their plight and give what is, to you, a relatively small amount of money to them based on that sympathy.

That idea of sympathy and being able to identify with this other person, who you probably don't have anything in common with besides both of you being human beings, and then to give away money that you have earned really doesn't equate with the logic of capitalism which is a logic of competition, gain, return, and individual self interest.

So, when people in Ireland, at this moment in time, ask why give aid, should we cut aid, I'd argue that what they're really asking is, in this exchange between me and this person, what do I get? Do I get a good return? Is this a good deal? I give x amount of money, what do I receive in return? What's my y! What kind of material return do I get for giving aid? What am I paying for. Charity, or aid, is, in itself, a selfless act, and the way that these questions are asked, or phrased, is rooted in a selfish logic, so any answer you give to those kind of questions can never be enough to satisfy those questions.

That doesn't mean those questions aren't valid. People are of course entitled to ask where is my money going? It would be completely irresponsible to hand out money and not enquire how it's being used. There should be comprehensive monitoring of who is getting aid, where the aid is going to, how it's being used, how can it be used most effectively, and where can it be used most effectively. The practice of giving aid itself, and of development as a project of the global community, should be constantly scrutinized, and it should be continually critiqued and examined, and the misuse and abuse of aid should be rigorously rooted out and exposed.

But none of these things, like corruption, like waste, like misuse, are reasons not to give aid. There are a lot of problems with aid, and with development practice. But, again, they are not reasons to not give aid. The only, as far as I can see, legitimate reason to not give aid, if you are willing to give aid, is if aid does not work, and, as far as I'm concerned, aid does work, aid improves peoples lives and it gives them a chance to improve not just their lives, but their families lives and their countries prospects.

I don't want to go in to why aid works here, because my post is long enough already, but if, as I believe, aid does work shouldn't that be answer enough to the question, why give aid? Should aid be cut? The funny thing is that it isn't. Why? I will go back to what I argued at the start, we think in terms of a capitalist logic. We think, what do I gain from this exchange? I give X, where is my Y? I want a return, what is my return? Is my return a school built in Ethiopia, is it giving a child an education in India, is it giving a woman a job in Haiti, is it giving children vaccines in Malawi? Or, is it the case that we don't get a return? We, I, me, do not get a return, in the sense, or logic, of capitalism.

I'm trying to point out that there's a fundamental disconnect between aid, or charity, and the way that we think in terms of money, which makes it incredibly difficult to justify it in those terms because it does not participate in them. Charity doesn't start at home. Charity starts by recognizing another human being, by recognizing their suffering and by sympathizing with their plight. Charity is blind to division, it is indiscriminate, and it is not bound by man made geographic borders, by notions of nationalism, or by constructed images of race, religion or creed. Charity is not a market relation. It is a moral act, and unless you happen to espouse a morality of "**** you buddy", then I don't see how you can possibly argue against giving aid, or how you could possibly argue for cutting aid altogether.

Giving aid is an act of solidarity. It is a recognition of another human being, a recognition of their suffering, and a recognition that I have the power to help them, and so I should, because, morally, it is the right thing to do. Cutting aid because some fat ****ing banker in Shrewsbury Road, or some property developer who was complicit in creating a property bubble that helped ruin this country, because of their own rampant self interest, because of their own lack of solidarity with their own people, seems to me to be a terrible thing. If anything it justifies them. It justifies and legitimates the actions of every single greedy mother ****er on this planet who rode roughshod over the markets for their own self interest because if you can't perform what is a tiny act of solidarity (48 cent out of every 100€), a tiny moral act that creates some good in the world, than why should they have any solidarity with you?

If you want a world where people don't care about others, can't sympathize with the plight of others, and can't help each other, than sure, cut aid. But you should understand that it will make absolutely no difference in Ireland, because that very act of cutting aid and refusing to recognize and sympathize with others is the very act that got Ireland in the position it is in today. You're perpetuating a morality and a logic that led to rampant greed, self interest, and disregard for others, instead of a morality that recognizes others suffering, acts to end their suffering, and realizes solidarity between human beings regardless of who they are or where they're from, and that is a morality that is the complete antithesis to capitalism and all of the ugly sentiments it espouses.

Daithinski

skearon wrote: »

Should we be subsidising beer and fags for native Irish leeches who never contribute anything to society?

If its a choice between fags for the lazy or food for the starving, then the only answer is food for the starving.

With the amount of tax on fags its hardly much of a subsidy.

You could say that the more people on the dole that smoke the better it is for the government finances.

For every pack of fags spent about 5/6 euros goes back to the government.

In fact I urge the unemployed people of Ireland to start smoking/smoke more to help the Irish economy through this tough time.

DanSolo

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

I give x amount of money, what do I receive in return? What's my y! What kind of material return do I get for giving aid? What am I paying for.

I have never, ever, in my entire life heard anybody ask that question. Have you?
Usually what I would like to see in return is *nothing*, i.e. less starving people. It simply doesn't work. In fact, the sum total of "suffering" is now far bigger in the Third World thanks to higher populations on the brink of starvation. It's only an apocalypse delayed.
And yes, I DO give to charity. Sure, it makes me feel a bit better about myself, but I just can't see the logic behind it.

Absurdum

SLUSK wrote: »

I'm in favour of getting rid of all foreign aid funded by taxpayers. This does not mean I'm against foreign aid. Foreign aid should be handled privately and also with the mess Ireland is in this country can't afford it.

I agree, but I would like to see some sort of emergency fund established to provide immediate aid in the event of a catastrophic disaster such as the Asian tsunami or various earthquakes, etc.

hiwayman

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1114/aid.html

Himmm, this reminds me of brown envelopes :rolleyes:

A group of 30 TDs and Senators has called on the Government not to cut overseas aid in the Budget on 9 December.
The group includes former Fianna Fáil ministers Rory O'Hanlon and Michael Woods, who is currently Chairman of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs.

The letter is signed by a total of six Fianna Fáil TDs and by Ciarán Cuffe and Dan Boyle of the Green Party.

Members of Fine Gael, Labour, Sinn Féin and some Independents also put their name to the letter.
Ireland's total development aid spend for 2009 would be €696m

namenotavailablE

In fact I urge the unemployed people of Ireland to start smoking/smoke more to help the Irish economy through this tough time.

Presumably a flippant comment- you'd need to count the economic costs of health care (both for smokers and for those affected by it ie passive smokers) and reductions in productivity when evaluating whether smoking actually is a net contributor to or drain on the economy.

DanSolo

namenotavailabl wrote: »

Presumably a flippant comment- you'd need to count the economic costs of health care (both for smokers and for those affected by it ie passive smokers) and reductions in productivity when evaluating whether smoking actually is a net contributor to or drain on the economy.

Hasn't this been done before though? Smokers die younger and are hence cheaper on the state. It costs less for a failed chemotherapy course than 20 years of pension and 15 years of nursing home.

Count Dooku

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

But none of these things, like corruption, like waste, like misuse, are reasons not to give aid.

Aid as it now is not act of humanity anymore
It is big business with powerful lobby of thousands hypocrites, which want to be good on somebody else expense

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

Should aid be cut? The funny thing is that it isn't. Why? I will go back to what I argued at the start, we think in terms of a capitalist logic. We think, what do I gain from this exchange? I give X, where is my Y? I want a return, what is my return? Is my return a school built in Ethiopia, is it giving a child an education in India, is it giving a woman a job in Haiti, is it giving children vaccines in Malawi?

It is nothing about capitalism or socialism
Our children will pay for aid, not us. Ireland doesn’t have money to pay own bills and have to borrow from international markets..
Do you think that it fair to be good on expense of little kids?

senordingdong

So the Indian govt. can afford a nuclear weapons programme, but western tax payers are feeding their poorest citizens?

tapo

It is very simple, we cannot afford to send money to irish charities abroad at present.

Stop sending it, we do not have it to give

Take care of Irish people first

it is not rocket science

meditraitor

Should we stop receiving AID also?

senordingdong

senordingdong wrote: »

So the Indian govt. can afford a nuclear weapons programme, but western tax payers are feeding their poorest citizens?

Thats pretty much my point. This may be harsh but they are the ones who need to sort out their own government and corruption not us.

meditraitor

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats pretty much my point. This may be harsh but they are the ones who need to sort out their own government and corruption not us.

The same with us but you dont see the EU refusing us the billions?

senordingdong

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats pretty much my point. This may be harsh but they are the ones who need to sort out their own government and corruption not us.

Well I agree whole heartidly.

Meditraitor- No we don't see the EU refusing us billions, but it would still be nice if the EU would intervene.

meditraitor

senordingdong wrote: »

Well I agree whole heartidly.

Meditraitor- No we don't see the EU refusing us billions, but it would still be nice if the EU would intervene.

At the moment the Eurozone is being held above water by the French and Germans and the majority of grants/aid we have received over the past 30 years has come from the coffers of these countries.
When they went into ressesion it didnt occur to them that they should stop helping their neighbours, now why is that?

If we decide its everyone for themselves(and other follow suit) we will be in a world of shit very quickly

Count Dooku

meditraitor wrote: »

The same with us but you dont see the EU refusing us the billions?

We will pay it back

senordingdong

meditraitor wrote: »

, now why is that?

Because they have more faith in this country than I do.

Anyway...I seem to recall outrage in Germany a few months ago when they found out how much was spent on our government.
Anybody else remember this?

meditraitor

senordingdong wrote: »

Because they have more faith in this country than I do.?

Its difficult to have faith at the moment:(

senordingdong wrote: »

Anyway...I seem to recall outrage in Germany a few months ago when they found out how much was spent on our government.
Anybody else remember this?

And rightly so, but I still think we should try to help others. India can f off. But other countries in sub saharan africa have problems which are not of their own making.

senordingdong

meditraitor wrote: »

And rightly so, but I still think we should try to help others. India can f off. But other countries in sub saharan africa have problems which are not of their own making.

I do agree, but at the risk of sounding calous, I think there are countless people in this country, in need, whos problems are not of their own making too.