Deconversion: The God Concept

Flamed Diving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12rP8ybp13s

These videos came recommended, basically an ex-Christian offering a method for "de-converting" Christians. There are many more videos in the set:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3

Flamed Diving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf5q6VFn17o

This is the next part. Could a Christian watch this and comment? It seems to be based on his genuine experiences as a Christian. I would be interested to hear your opinion, as I have no experience of this type of thing.

Flamed Diving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-q8WZ1Ibso

This is the latest chapter, I really like this guys videos, they are very sincere and honest. The reason I posted it is because he mentioned that, interestingly, when he was still a Christian, a crisis in his faith led him to become obsessed with debating with Atheists in online forums, for this was the only thing which seemed to fulfil his ministry... I don't know what the end of that means, but can anyone think of a poster or two that would fit this bill?

Hmm...

Tim Robbins

Cool music.

Flamed Diving

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Cool music.

Music:

"Recordare" by Libera

Coriolanus

Interesting stuff, FD. Cheers for the linkage.

Flamed Diving

Was it iUseVi who said he "deconverted"? He might like these, if so.

Coriolanus

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Was it iUseVi who said he "deconverted"? He might like these, if so.

Yep, afair.

iUseVi

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Was it iUseVi who said he "deconverted"? He might like these, if so.

I tell you what, the atheist community on youtube really helped me out a lot. I watched literally hundreds of videos on there.

Sam Vimes

That personal relationship aspect of faith is the most dangerous imo. The people on this forum know that they're pretty much talking to themselves but any intuition they might have is given incredible weight because they think it's god talking to them. That's fine for most people but I think it's fairly obvious how potentially dangerous it can be for someone to think their own opinion is backed up by the omnipotent creator of the universe.

That kind of thinking is probably the origin of religions in the first place, as in people had intuitions just like the guy in this video and thought it was god inspiring them. That would explain why the god of the old testament appears to have a personality very much like a primitive desert nomad.

Tim Robbins

Good stuff. There is no silver bullet mechanism to deconvert christians.
I agree with that. It's about taking a step back and really thinking about things which has the inevitable conclusion of agnosticism / atheism.

ShooterSF

Fascinating videos and at the risk of sounding homosexual I could listen to this guy talk for ever, it just puts you at ease...

pH

Anyone interested in a similar story in book form should get hold of Godless by Dan Barker, a quite compelling deconversion story from preacher to atheist.

http://books.google.com/books?as_isbn=1569756775

The weakest sections (IMHO) are the philosophy and anti-theology (others do it better), but the story of the journey itself was great.

Hugo Drax

If I am wrong.... Lucky you. A ride without the emotional baggage.

Hugo Drax

First there was the dream, now there is reality. Here in the untainted cradle of the heavens will be created a new super race, a race of perfect physical specimens. You have been selected as its progenitors. Like gods, your offspring will return to Earth and shape it in their image. You have all served in public capacties in my terrestrial empire. Your seed, like yourselves, will pay deference to the ultimate dynasty which I alone have created. From their first day on Earth they will be able to look up and know that there is law and order in the heavens.

Mena

How does Moonraker fit into the equation

Daftendirekt

Hugo Drax wrote: »

If I am wrong.... Lucky you. A ride without the emotional baggage.

First there was the dream, now there is reality. Here in the untainted cradle of the heavens will be created a new super race, a race of perfect physical specimens. You have been selected as its progenitors. Like gods, your offspring will return to Earth and shape it in their image. You have all served in public capacties in my terrestrial empire. Your seed, like yourselves, will pay deference to the ultimate dynasty which I alone have created. From their first day on Earth they will be able to look up and know that there is law and order in the heavens.

...

What?

mjg

While watching the first vid, I realised that at the moment of my de-conversion my "faith" was literally hanging by a thread. The vid makes complete sense regarding the interconnected nodes of someone's belief system but I had the silver bullet moment while reading a book of Philosophy Questions where a number of arguments were discussed. The particular (short) chapter finished with the line "these are some of the arguments used to disprove the existence of God" or something along that line.

And just like that......(as Tommy Cooper would say).

I can't remember what the arguments were now, I've read and discussed too much about it since but they're not important.

What is important is that I can honestly say that it was like a cartoon where a light-bulb appears over the head of a character.... "BING!!!"

I had made no effort to question my belief system up to that, I had just assumed, like the majority of socialised RC's in the country, that there was at the very least some deity that joined all religions together and it was just their interpretation of it that varied.

That moment, that sudden shot of clarity will stay with me for the rest of my life and it is really my happiest memory to date.

Flamed Diving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbXJC6KsYWs

The latest update.

Turtwig

Not part of the original series, but I thought I'd add this video here.

Turtwig

Again not part of the original series, but I thought I'd add this video.

homer911

Why dont you all read CS Lewis's "The Screwtape Letters"?

Flamed Diving

Why should we?

Turtwig

homer911 wrote: »

Why dont you all read CS Lewis's "The Screwtape Letters"?

Because everything I've read about Lewis's understanding of morality sucks. I may read it sometime when I've got nothing better to be doing, but right now it's education value is worth zero to me.

hiorta

mjg wrote: »

The particular (short) chapter finished with the line "these are some of the arguments used to disprove the existence of God"

Does that view only dissolve the Christian/ RC notion of 'god' or does it apply to all others, too?

Antbert

Hugo Drax wrote: »

First there was the dream, now there is reality. Here in the untainted cradle of the heavens will be created a new super race, a race of perfect physical specimens. You have been selected as its progenitors. Like gods, your offspring will return to Earth and shape it in their image. You have all served in public capacties in my terrestrial empire. Your seed, like yourselves, will pay deference to the ultimate dynasty which I alone have created. From their first day on Earth they will be able to look up and know that there is law and order in the heavens.

Cool.

Antbert

Malty_T wrote: »

Because everything I've read about Lewis's understanding of morality sucks. I may read it sometime when I've got nothing better to be doing, but right now it's education value is worth zero to me.

Even when I was little reading the Narnia books all the 'son of Adam, daughter of Eve' stuff seemed a bit weird.

robindch

homer911 wrote: »

Why dont you all read CS Lewis's "The Screwtape Letters"?

I have. They're terrible!

The Mad Hatter

Flamed Diving wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbXJC6KsYWs

The latest update.

The fact that it was respect for his statement that proved the turning point is, I think, instructive.

This is an excellent series of videos.

iUseVi

robindch wrote: »

I have. They're terrible!

+1

Personally I think most C. S. Lewis is complete junk, and I've read most of his stuff simply because it was on the bookshelf when I was growing up.

A lot of christians I know adore him because they see him as an "eminent Oxford scholar" which they somehow think lends credence to his nutty religious views.

End rant.

homer911

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Why should we?

The Screwtape letters are a series of letters written from Screwtape to his nephew Wormwood, two angels of Satan. Screwtape advises his nephew on how to drive a wedge between his latest human "charge" and "the enemy" i.e. deconverting them.

Seems a reasonable thing to read given the title of this thread! Perhaps you might get some tips...

homer911

iUseVi wrote: »

+1

Personally I think most C. S. Lewis is complete junk, and I've read most of his stuff simply because it was on the bookshelf when I was growing up.

A lot of christians I know adore him because they see him as an "eminent Oxford scholar" which they somehow think lends credence to his nutty religious views.

End rant.

Perhaps you see them as "junk" because they challenge your comfortable world view - the simplest reaction is to write it off as junk - then you can sleep comfortably at night safe in the knowledge that you are right and all Christians are wrong...

Turtwig

homer911 wrote: »

Perhaps you see them as "junk" because they challenge your comfortable world view - the simplest reaction is to write it off as junk - then you can sleep comfortably at night safe in the knowledge that you are right and all Christians are wrong...

I prefer sleeping comfortably in the knowledge that I'm probably less wrong.

homer911

Malty_T wrote: »

I prefer sleeping comfortably in the knowledge that I'm probably less wrong.

I don't visit this forum often - how do you mean "probably less wrong"? Are you being humourous or are you saying that Agnosticism is still wrong?

If Atheism/Agnosticism is wrong, what exactly is "right"?

Christians would be perfectly comfortable in knowing what they believe and trusting that what they dont understand will be revealed in the fullness of time. But you choose to be an atheist, even though you believe it to be wrong??

I'm impressed by your faith in nothing!

Turtwig

homer911 wrote: »

Christians would be perfectly comfortable in knowing what they believe and trusting that what they dont understand will be revealed in the fullness of time. But you choose to be an atheist, even though you believe it to be wrong??

Yep, I see my view of reality as probably being wrong, I just think it's less wrong that yours.
*searches for Sam Vimes's Sig.*

"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it." - Terry Pratchett

Nothing scares me more than someone who, outside the realm of mathematics, thinks they "know" something to be absolutely true.

token56

homer911 wrote: »

I don't visit this forum often - how do you mean "probably less wrong"? Are you being humourous or are you saying that Agnosticism is still wrong?

If Atheism/Agnosticism is wrong, what exactly is "right"?

Christians would be perfectly comfortable in knowing what they believe and trusting that what they dont understand will be revealed in the fullness of time. But you choose to be an atheist, even though you believe it to be wrong??

I'm impressed by your faith in nothing!

Just speaking as a general atheist I think point is that no one can definitively say if they are right or wrong about whether or not they think a deity exists or not, however Atheists would argue that the majority of the evidence from the world around us suggests there probably is no god (this is debated, argued, etc and has been done on many, many occasions), hence atheism being less wrong or more correct than say christianity. Just in our opinion of course.

As for a faith in nothing, I'm sure most atheists/agnostics would agree that atheism is not a "faith". Christians may believe that what they dont understand will be revealed to them in time, however atheists just accept that we currently dont and probably never will know everything, and that this is ok. Just because we cant explain something, doesn't automatically mean some supernatural being is behind in it. It doesn't require faith to say, its ok to not understand everything.

Turtwig

token56 wrote: »

however atheists just accept that we currently dont and probably never will know everything,.

Not in my lifetime anyway.:(

homer911

Interesting, thanks..

Dades

homer911 wrote: »

But you choose to be an atheist, even though you believe it to be wrong??

FYI - you don't "choose" to be an atheist any more than you choose not to believe in the Loch Ness monster. I'd love to think there's a prehistoric marine creature living in a Scottish loch. Unfortunately the evidence is too, well, unbelieveable.

robindch

homer911 wrote: »

Perhaps you see them as "junk" because they challenge your comfortable world view - the simplest reaction is to write it off as junk - then you can sleep comfortably at night safe in the knowledge that you are right and all Christians are wrong...

iUseVi and myself seem to share views on this. It's been some years since I've read them -- and also listened to John Cleese's excellent reading of them -- but I found them poorly written, frequently juvenile, splendidly trivial, thoroughly inconsistent, logically daft, immensely preachy and displaying a knowledge of human psychology and ethics that was so far off the mark, that I actually felt rather embarrassed for the guy that he could write something like that, and think it adequate.

I don't think that anybody here would have written them off because they "challenge a comfortable worldview". They're written off simply because they're crap.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Valmont

iUseVi wrote: »

+1

Personally I think most C. S. Lewis is complete junk, and I've read most of his stuff simply because it was on the bookshelf when I was growing up.

A lot of christians I know adore him because they see him as an "eminent Oxford scholar" which they somehow think lends credence to his nutty religious views.

End rant.

The man knew how to write a good book though. As a kid, I loved and still cherish my special editions of the Narnia books. Great stories and I would think that most kids will not read into the religious aspect. I know I certainly didn't. I just liked all the cool fantasy stuff.

homer911

Dades wrote: »

FYI - you don't "choose" to be an atheist any more than you choose not to believe in the Loch Ness monster. I'd love to think there's a prehistoric marine creature living in a Scottish loch. Unfortunately the evidence is too, well, unbelieveable.

So an Atheist is an atheist because..

...they believe in Science
...they have no better explanation of the meaning/purpose of life to offer

While I respect your position and would consider it better in some ways than cultural christians, are a lot of Athiests not shutting the door on Christianity off-hand without first approaching it with an open mind - I'm thinking here of people who would have grown up in the Catholic/Protestant church, never really understood what christian faith was about and hence written it off? I acknowledge that there are probably posters here who have studied Christian beliefs and still written them off for whatever reason - the Scriptures make a number of references to peoples hearts being hardened to God..

Pete M.

I was raised as a Christian, a Catholic indeed, and can think of no better reason why I shouldn't believe in God. Never did anything for me and as far as I'm concerned, as the Scriptures were written by some mortal or group of mortals, who didn't receive any divine inspiration for their content, that their writing of people whose hearts were 'hardened to Christ' or whatever, were really just giving out about those who hadn't signed up to their view.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dades

homer911 wrote: »

So an Atheist is an atheist because..

...they believe in Science
...they have no better explanation of the meaning/purpose of life to offer

Atheism isn't about believing in science or offering an explanation to philosophical questions - it's simply about not believing the explanations offered by theists in the form of religion. What conclusions an atheist comes to after that are to do with their own personal philosophy.

homer911 wrote: »

I acknowledge that there are probably posters here who have studied Christian beliefs and still written them off for whatever reason - the Scriptures make a number of references to peoples hearts being hardened to God..

I don't want to sound flippant, but to an atheist that's like hardening your heart to Darth Vader.
Both are believed to be fictional figures.

iUseVi

robindch wrote: »

iUseVi and myself seem to share views on this. It's been some years since I've read them -- and also listened to John Cleese's excellent reading of them -- but I found them poorly written, frequently juvenile, splendidly trivial, thoroughly inconsistent, logically daft, immensely preachy and displaying a knowledge of human psychology and ethics that was so far off the mark, that I actually felt rather embarrassed for the guy that he could write something like that, and think it adequate.

I don't think that anybody here would have written them off because they "challenge a comfortable worldview". They're written off simply because they're crap.

Yes! Thank you, this sums up my view perfectly.

Mostly I find them logically inconsistent. For example in "Mere Christianity" he assumes that everyone thinks as he does about a "moral law", and then literally by the next page he has jumped from moral law to Christian. This is but one example of the absurd and illogical thinking.

Thanks robin I wish I was half as eloquent as you.

iUseVi

Valmont wrote: »

The man knew how to write a good book though. As a kid, I loved and still cherish my special editions of the Narnia books. Great stories and I would think that most kids will not read into the religious aspect. I know I certainly didn't. I just liked all the cool fantasy stuff.

Yes, I did use an extremely broad brush. I was referring to his books on Christianity mostly - I don't think he has one logical and consistent argument in them.

That being said, I still cherish my copy of "The Magician's Nephew", one of my favourites.

On the other end of the spectrum are his Space books. I found "Perelandra" to be unread-ably awful.

Sam Vimes

homer911 wrote: »

I acknowledge that there are probably posters here who have studied Christian beliefs and still written them off for whatever reason - the Scriptures make a number of references to peoples hearts being hardened to God..

There are millions upon millions of claims of people with magical powers throughout history and right now and I see no reason to single your one out and declare it to be true over all others. Simple as that. My heart is no more hardened to christianity than it is to the Loch Ness monster or Mystic Meg

Mark Hamill

homer911 wrote: »

So an Atheist is an atheist because..

...they believe in Science
...they have no better explanation of the meaning/purpose of life to offer

Not quite. An atheist is an atheist because they dont believe in god/s. Thats it, thats all you can say about atheists in general. A lot may base this on science, but not all do.

homer911 wrote: »

While I respect your position and would consider it better in some ways than cultural christians, are a lot of Athiests not shutting the door on Christianity off-hand without first approaching it with an open mind - I'm thinking here of people who would have grown up in the Catholic/Protestant church, never really understood what christian faith was about and hence written it off?

Possibly, but like above, you cant make assumptions about why atheists do things, the only thing that unites us is that we dont believe in god/s not why we dont believe. Besides most religious people generally shut the door (or have the door shut on them) on other religions off-hand simply by virtue of being raised as a particular religion.

homer911 wrote: »

I acknowledge that there are probably posters here who have studied Christian beliefs and still written them off for whatever reason - the Scriptures make a number of references to peoples hearts being hardened to God..

Is is comforting to try to believe that the real reason for atheists is that they cant believe in god, rather than they have rational reasons for not believing in god? How do our hearts become hardened?

Turtwig

homer911 wrote: »

So an Atheist is an atheist because..

Firstly, atheists have different reasons for becoming atheist. Some have no reasons at all! All that matters is that they lack belief in a God.

While I respect your position and would consider it better in some ways than cultural christians, are a lot of Athiests not shutting the door on Christianity off-hand without first approaching it with an open mind - I'm thinking here of people who would have grown up in the Catholic/Protestant church, never really understood what christian faith was about and hence written it off? I acknowledge that there are probably posters here who have studied Christian beliefs and still written them off for whatever reason - the Scriptures make a number of references to peoples hearts being hardened to God..[

Ahh the auld "True Christian" card where we didn't actually understand Christianity at all. Here's a question :
Who actually does understand Christianity?
As it seems to me like you guys can't even agree on anything. Not only that, though, but often times ye blatantly contradict one and others beliefs.(Nevermind live in a world of hypocrisy.) Get some consistency into your picture and I might consider reconsidering, but right now the rules of the Quantum World should only apply to that world; not to everyday Christianity.