Not In Union, What are options for November 24th

782378

Two Relatives are working in a County Coucil when the vast majoriy of staff are in the union.They are not members of a union and are very anxious about the upcoming day of protest.

What are their options for the 24th of November? Earlier this year when staff held a strike and members crossed the picket line, they were abused and their cars were attacked. As result, they are very anxious about going to work on this day. Other staff members have warned them that they should not cross the picket line while a strike is on. As they are not in the union they are expected to attend work.

Both applied to take annual leave for this day to avoid this stressful situation but were refused, A memo was e-mailed and staff were advised that nobody was allowed to take a holiday for this day as a show of support for Public sector workers.

Any advise apreciated?

I_am_Jebus

I am in same boat.

Not in the Union and have very little time for it at the moment.

I have applied for leave for 24th but have not been given an answer yet. The union that (would) represent me hasn't finalised its ballot yet so I am hoping I get granted annual leave before the decision to strike is made.

Last time out, I didn't show up for work and was docked a days pay. I really can't afford that this time around.

All but one other of the employees in my division (41 staff) are in the union :mad:

dearg lady

I actually am in the Union, I joined mainly to avoid just such a situation. But now I feel I cannot join strike action as I do not support the Unions basis for it, and am unsure what action to take.

Riskymove

I sympathise but as laid out there are really only a few options

1. stay away and sacrifice a days pay (it cant really be that much after all)

2. cross a picket, get paid but face the sort of thing mentioned above, however unfortunate, it is likely to happen

It really depends where you are working, level of union membership and likely mood of pickets really.

I do have to say if I was actually in the union that is striking I would not consider crossing a picket but thats just me. I'd rather just stay away and keep the head down.

dearg lady

Riskymove wrote: »

I do have to say if I was actually in the union that is striking I would not consider crossing a picket but thats just me. I'd rather just stay away and keep the head down.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. Tbh, I don't think strikes will get us anywhere. Work wil build up on my desk lol

I can understand the Union fighting to get us the 'best deal' so to speak (or more to the point the less crappy deal) but going after the National Wage Agreement I can't agree with, and parts of their 10 point plan are well a bit crap.

Still, it's two weeks away so will see what happens in the meantime.

murphaph

Unfortunately too many union members who genuinely realise we're up sh!t creek are keeping the head down. The likes of McCloone and Begg etc. are the irish equivalents of the Duke of York! leading their members on a hiding to nothing. The PS workers with private sector spouses/family know all too well what it means to have a secure job and know a 10% pay cut now is far more preferable to the alternative in a year or two.

Riskymove

dearg lady wrote: »

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. Tbh, I don't think strikes will get us anywhere. Work wil build up on my desk lol

Still, it's two weeks away so will see what happens in the meantime.

I think thats what a lot of public servants are thinking too and hoping it wont come to a strike, certainly I have heard some things are progressing in the talks.

I have to consider all these things as my union is balloting; to be honest while I might prefer a No vote, I think it would be more of a nightmare personally if most of the staff were out on ballot and I was not!

Firetrap

How about ringing in sick?

bigdaddyliamo

As a former civil servant I can see both sides in this. However, I would have to say that the best thing the cpsu membership can do in this situation would be to take a step back and postpone any action the union ballots for. Package it as a move for solidarity for those in the private sector who have a less certain future and it will lead to better copy in the media.It will also deflect from the ramblings from out of touch union leadership.
More generic than your request,I know,but something to think about.

Coriolanus

I_am_Jebus wrote: »

Last time out, I didn't show up for work and was docked a days pay. I really can't afford that this time around.

Docked a day, or just lost out on the day you didn't work? Not sure what you mean, I hope you mean the latter, cause the first would suck.

Well, if you can't not go into work, sounds like you've answered your own question.

Firetrap wrote: »

How about ringing in sick?

Well, depends if he can do it uncertified or not... Plus, if he can't afford to lose even the one days pay, even if he had uncertified sick days, it's not much good.

OP, you have my every sympathy. I'm private sector myself, but have had a fair few chats with various public sector and taxi people who've been mortified over the stances the various representative bodies and unions have been taking.

ixoy

Firetrap wrote: »

How about ringing in sick?

I imagine you'll need a sick cert. Pretty sure that's what happened last time when the CPSU went on strike - if you were out "sick" you'd well need a doctor's cert to prove it wasn't merely a sympathetic sickness. The same rules could apply again, depending on your department.

ballsymchugh

ok i don't mean this as a smartarse answer, but how about you get in really really early, before the strikers turn up? it's what i'd do. at least you won't cross any line.

astrofool

It's a bit sad that a rabbling crowd can keep someone from working. While the right to strike is enshrined, the right to work, when you disagree with, or not a member of the strikers, should be similarly enshrined, and those who cause trouble for them should be ejected from the union/strikers.

Me, personally, I'd carry a few eggs with me in case anyone decided to cross me.

bamboozle

782378 wrote: »

Two Relatives are working in a County Coucil when the vast majoriy of staff are in the union.They are not members of a union and are very anxious about the upcoming day of protest.

What are their options for the 24th of November? Earlier this year when staff held a strike and members crossed the picket line, they were abused and their cars were attacked. As result, they are very anxious about going to work on this day. Other staff members have warned them that they should not cross the picket line while a strike is on. As they are not in the union they are expected to attend work.

Both applied to take annual leave for this day to avoid this stressful situation but were refused, A memo was e-mailed and staff were advised that nobody was allowed to take a holiday for this day as a show of support for Public sector workers.

Any advise apreciated?

who was responsible for the memo going round? thats bizarre that you are effectively being aligned with the trade unions whether you like it or not.

Riskymove

bamboozle wrote: »

who was responsible for the memo going round? thats bizarre that you are effectively being aligned with the trade unions whether you like it or not.

this is standard practice for industrial action

it means you cannot avoid a strike (whether in union or not) by taking casual leave. If you had a longstanding arrangment (e.g. a holiday booked) it may be allowed.

if you are not in a union that is on strike, you are expected to go to work

jimmmy

Firetrap wrote: »

How about ringing in sick?

Enough people done that last Friday

The country borrowed 70 million euro that day , the same as every other day of the week, to keep those it pays as well paid as it does. Thats a fact. Our children and grandchildren can pay it back in time, plus interest.:(

Absurdum

jimmmy wrote: »

Enough people done that last Friday

How many is that then? Have you got a link to prove this, or is another one of those "facts" you pull from thin air?

sogg

Loads in my workplace have just joined the union this week to cover themselves. I'm still undecided though - we're understaffed and overworked enough as it is as a result of cutbacks....honestly the idea of having to make up that day's work (inevitable!) just stresses me more if anything!!

Mr. Presentable

jimmmy wrote: »

Enough people done that last Friday

(

Can you support that? I know of non-union PS workers who on Friday took annual leave or flexi, but none who took sick (who weren't)

jimmmy

Absurdum wrote: »

How many is that then?

Only the public service would know that, and that is a figure I bet they will not release. However, we do know the absenteeism rate due to sick days in the p.s. : we do know approximately how many employees are in the p.s. ( although not exactly how many were to work last Friday if they were not sick;) ). Statistics from the civil service ( Monday to Friday workers ) on another thread , courtesy of another poster, show that Monday are almost three times more popular than Fridays for sickies, but will the p.s. ever let people know how many last Friday out of its 350,000 took a sickie ? T'would be interesting.;)

Now back to the thread : as firetrap suggests for the 24th :
"How about ringing in sick?"

Absurdum

jimmmy wrote: »

Only the public service would know that, and that is a figure I bet they will not release.

So in other words, you have no idea.

Taxipete29

nipplenuts wrote: »

Can you support that? I know of non-union PS workers who on Friday took annual leave or flexi, but none who took sick (who weren't)

I think the difference was Friday wasnt a strike, it was a day of protest. I know it sounds the same but they arent.

jimmmy

Absurdum wrote: »

So in other words, you have no idea.

Given sick rates in the public service ( http://www.independent.ie/national-n...r-1922474.html ), and the number of employees in the public service, there would be an average of 10,500 paid sick days taken every day 365 days a year in the public service. If last Friday is more or less than this only the p.s. know at this stage, and like their allowances I think they are not in a rush to divulge this information.

Mr. Presentable

jimmmy wrote: »

Given sick rates in the public service ( http://www.independent.ie/national-n...r-1922474.html ), and the number of employees in the public service, there would be an average of 10,500 paid sick days taken every day 365 days a year in the public service. If last Friday is more or less than this only the p.s. know at this stage, and like their allowances I think they are not in a rush to divulge this information.

Just say "No I can't"

Go on, you know you want to.

jimmmy

nipplenuts wrote: »

Just say "No I can't"

Go on, you know you want to.

No I can't be one of the 10,500 public service people paid full pay every day because they are too sick to work . Happy now ?

dvpower

bamboozle wrote: »

who was responsible for the memo going round? thats bizarre that you are effectively being aligned with the trade unions whether you like it or not.

Any responsible employer anticipating that most of their staff would be out on a particular day would refuse leave to the remaining staff (unless you happen to be in an employment where it didn't really matter if the work got done or not).

Euro_Kraut

dvpower wrote: »

Any responsible employer anticipating that most of their staff would be out on a particular day would refuse leave to the remaining staff (unless you happen to be in an employment where it didn't really matter if the work got done or not).

Yes its standard practice to refuse leave.

Op your relatives should not be subjected to any harassment as they come and go from work. I am dubious of your claim that there was trouble last time particularly when it was just one Union that we out on strike and other union member were instructed by ICTU to cross the picket.


If your relative want to go in than they should go in. Any harassment can be reported next day to their boss. Disciplinary action would be the likely outcome. However I suspect no one will day boo to them,

By the considered no one else will be in, I doubt there will be much work they can do on that day.

SLUSK

782378 wrote: »

Two Relatives are working in a County Coucil when the vast majoriy of staff are in the union.They are not members of a union and are very anxious about the upcoming day of protest.

What are their options for the 24th of November? Earlier this year when staff held a strike and members crossed the picket line, they were abused and their cars were attacked. As result, they are very anxious about going to work on this day. Other staff members have warned them that they should not cross the picket line while a strike is on. As they are not in the union they are expected to attend work.

Both applied to take annual leave for this day to avoid this stressful situation but were refused, A memo was e-mailed and staff were advised that nobody was allowed to take a holiday for this day as a show of support for Public sector workers.

Any advise apreciated?

We really need the police to bust the heads of union bullies. I ****ing hate the unions. What Ireland needs is a Margaret Thatcher who can crush the unions.

Psychedelic

I'd say crossing a picket line could be dangerous. You will be labelled a scab by an angry mob and have those people going around telling everyone you're a scab for crossing the picket line, a label that could potentially live with you a long time after the strike. Depending on the type of people striking you could also be met with verbal and/or physical intimidation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strikebreaker

Psychedelic

.

Firetrap

Don't suppose there would be any point in them having a chat with a union rep where they're working?

Euro_Kraut

Psychedelic wrote: »

I'd say crossing a picket line could be dangerous. You will be labelled a scab by an angry mob and have those people going around telling everyone you're a scab for crossing the picket line, a label that could potentially live with you a long time after the strike. Depending on the type of people striking you could also be met with verbal and/or physical intimidation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strikebreaker

Wow Scaremonger much?

I worked during the recent CSPU stike. I crossed the picket line. I was a member of another Union. There was no problem whatsoever and ICTU directed us to do so.

Have you much personal experience of cross picket lines in Ireland?

By the way, strikebreaking is really only when some does the work of a striking colleague. Its a big no-no in industrial relations but is easily avoided in a office situation where 90% of staff will not be working anyways.

Daithinski

782378 wrote: »

Two Relatives are working in a County Coucil when the vast majoriy of staff are in the union.They are not members of a union and are very anxious about the upcoming day of protest.

What are their options for the 24th of November? Earlier this year when staff held a strike and members crossed the picket line, they were abused and their cars were attacked. As result, they are very anxious about going to work on this day. Other staff members have warned them that they should not cross the picket line while a strike is on. As they are not in the union they are expected to attend work.

Both applied to take annual leave for this day to avoid this stressful situation but were refused, A memo was e-mailed and staff were advised that nobody was allowed to take a holiday for this day as a show of support for Public sector workers.

Any advise apreciated?

Maybe they could join the union?

jimmmy

Psychedelic wrote: »

I'd say crossing a picket line could be dangerous. You will be labelled a scab by an angry mob and have those people going around telling everyone you're a scab for crossing the picket line, a label that could potentially live with you a long time after the strike. Depending on the type of people striking you could also be met with verbal and/or physical intimidation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strikebreaker

All the more reason to stand up to the union bullies. You will have more respect from most people as a result.;)

Psychedelic

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Wow Scaremonger much?

I worked during the recent CSPU stike. I crossed the picket line. I was a member of another Union. There was no problem whatsoever and ICTU directed us to do so.

Have you much personal experience of cross picket lines in Ireland?

By the way, strikebreaking is really only when some does the work of a striking colleague. Its a big no-no in industrial relations but is easily avoided in a office situation where 90% of staff will not be working anyways.

I don't personally have experience, but my father was a worker in Waterford Crystal when they went on strike in the early 90's and even though I was only a child I remember a lot of talk about people who broke the picket. There was a fella living in our neighbourhood who was in senior management and he broke the picket, fella was just hated afterwards, referred to as a scab for a while.

Then there's the taxis; a driver has a run-in with a Garda during peak time on a Saturday night, some mad head of the local taxi drivers union decides to call a strike immediately and the word was flying out that any drivers who kept working were scabs. Of course these are just a couple of extreme examples so it might not be as bad elsewhere.

The way I see it is that people have a right to strike, but those on strike should observe the right of people who choose to cross the picket. An exception to this would be when every single worker in a company goes on strike and new workers come in and cross the picket, do the work and get paid (is that still legal?).

hawker

What is the situation for non members of a Union striking on 24th November? I would assume this is not possible but I may be wrong.

Anyone throw any light on it?

ditchhurler

hawker wrote: »

What is the situation for non members of a Union striking on 24th November? I would assume this is not possible but I may be wrong.

Anyone throw any light on it?

Many non- members of unions will not pass pickets anyway, and will simply be docked a day's pay by their employers. Not all teachers are members of ASTI . TUI etc, but I doubt if very many of them would pass a picket - much too much frostiness to look forward to in the staff canteen the next day.

hawker

Thanks ditchhurler.

So I'm assuming that non-union members cannot be disciplined for not turning into work that day. They basically are just docked a days pay. Is that right?

ditchhurler

hawker wrote: »

Thanks ditchhurler.

So I'm assuming that non-union members cannot be disciplined for not turning into work that day. They basically are just docked a days pay. Is that right?

Normally the employer would issue a circular/memo/e.mail to the effect that one day's pay and service entitlement would be lost for those absenting themselves from work on the day in question, unless employees sign in, or are on certified sick leave - this notification would be issued to all employees not just those in the union.

hawker

ditchhurler wrote: »

Normally the employer would issue a circular/memo/e.mail to the effect that one day's pay and service entitlement would be lost for those absenting themselves from work on the day in question, unless employees sign in, or are on certified sick leave - this notification would be issued to all employees not just those in the union.

Cheers ditchhurler.

Gumbo

im on this boat too, im not in the union, dont want to strike and cant afford to not turn up as im on contract till January. what do i do.........

Nody

kceire wrote: »

im on this boat too, im not in the union, dont want to strike and cant afford to not turn up as im on contract till January. what do i do.........

You have three options:

1) You walk past the picket line as is your legal right (this assumes the building is not locked out obviously) and hope it is recognised once the contract is up.

2) You say **** it and pander to the union by not showing up and end up playing after their whistle with out the benefits (best type of workers for a union; you do as they want but they don't have to protect you).

3) You get a 50 EUR cert doctor to sign you out for a few days but I'd say that would cost you more money over all and tie in with point 2.

Senwood

PEOPLE ITS VERY SIMPLE. IF YOU CHOOSE NOT TO PAY SUBSCRIPTIONS TO A UNION WITHIN YOUR WORKPLACE - YOU ARE NOT A MEMBER AND THEREFORE YOU ARE AWARE THAT IF THERE IS A STRIKE YOU WILL BE WORKING AS NORMAL ON THAT DAY - THERE IS NO CHANGE FOR YOU ON THE DAY. YOU WILL STILL BE PAID FOR YOUR DAYS WORK. NOT JOINING A UNION WITHIN AN ORGANISATION AS LARGE AS THE PUBLIC SECTOR IS REALLY TAKING A STAND FOR YOURSELF SO YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF WALKING PAST YOUR WORKMATES TWICE THAT DAY. THERE IS NO POINT MAKING A STAND & THEN STAYING AT HOME BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO PASS A PICKET!

IF YOU ARE ABUSED CROSSING A PICKET LINE (WHICH IS HIGLY UNLIKELY - IT IS FROWN UPON BY UNION OFFICIALS AND THEY HAVE ISSUED CORRESPONDENCE TO THEIR MEMBERS HIGHLIGHTING THIS) THEN WRITE A LETTER OF COMPLAINT TO (A) YOUR MANAGER AND COPY TO THE UNION OFFICIAL RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR WORKPLACE AND SECURITY PERSONNEL WITHIN YOUR WORKPLACE.

damo

WHAT????? SORRY I CANT HEAR YOU SENWOOD, YOU'RE GOING TO NEED TO SHOUT LOUDER TO GET YOUR POINT ACCROSS. THANK YOU!!!

nesf

kceire wrote: »

im on this boat too, im not in the union, dont want to strike and cant afford to not turn up as im on contract till January. what do i do.........

Talk to your supervisor and ask them what is expected of you on the 24th. If you are expected to turn up to work then walk past the picket. If anyone gives you crap about it tell them that you can't afford to be docked a day's pay and don't have a choice in the matter.

murphaph

Senwood wrote: »

IF YOU ARE ABUSED CROSSING A PICKET LINE (WHICH IS HIGLY UNLIKELY - IT IS FROWN UPON BY UNION OFFICIALS AND THEY HAVE ISSUED CORRESPONDENCE TO THEIR MEMBERS HIGHLIGHTING THIS) THEN WRITE A LETTER OF COMPLAINT TO (A) YOUR MANAGER AND COPY TO THE UNION OFFICIAL RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR WORKPLACE AND SECURITY PERSONNEL WITHIN YOUR WORKPLACE.

What if your manager is the school principal, who is also out on strike?!

gazzer

I am in the same boat. I am not a member of the PSEU but they will be striking next week. Last time the CPSU were on strike I came in before 8am and left after 7pm. I didnt go out for lunch so even though I was in work I didnt pass any picket.

This time around however I reckon I will be one of only 3 other people not in a union as all the unions in my place are striking. I can come in before 8 and leave after 7 but it is going to be a long long day as I will not be able to do any work as the people I deal with will be outside picketing.

I cant take annual leave, I can however take unpaid leave. I dont want to do this as to be honest I cant afford it at the moment but I think I will have no choice as I honestly think I will crack up if I an in this office for 11+ hours with nobody around and all my work piling up cos I cant get it done.

Senwood

DAMO, MATURE RESPONSE, GOOD ARGUMENT, WELL DONE! BY THE WAY YOU FORGOT THE "NA NA NA NA NAH" AT THE END.

Senwood

murphaph wrote: »

What if your manager is the school principal, who is also out on strike?!

I DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM WITH THIS QUESTION? HE WILL BE ON STRIKE ON THE 24TH BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN INSTRUCTED TO DO SO BY HIS UNION BECAUSE OF A MAJORITY BALLOT. ON THE 25TH NOV HE IS STILL THE SCHOOL PRINCIPAL AND SHOULD THEREFORE BEHAVE AND DEAL WITH ANY COMPLAINTS/GRIEVANCES IN A TOTALLY PROFESSIONAL AND NON-BIASED MANNER.

Scofflaw

Senwood wrote: »

DAMO, MATURE RESPONSE, GOOD ARGUMENT, WELL DONE! BY THE WAY YOU FORGOT THE "NA NA NA NA NAH" AT THE END.

If you're unaware that your Caps Lock key is on, you now know it. Turn it off, or I'll delete your posts.

Thanks.

moderately,
Scofflaw

segaBOY

Go into work early to avoid the picket line. I know a few guys in the company I used to work in who were not unionised. They came into work 2 hours before their shift was due to start just to avoid the picket and it seemed to work.