Rise in racism in the middle class? [Was "keep Newbridge foreigner free?"]

Fuinseog

i see the railway bar had to pay out 12,000 in compensation to travellers for refusing admittance. there were five inside and more intended going in and were refused. for obvious reasons most Irish people dislikethe travelling community or 'knackers' are they are referred to here.

what I don't understand though is the apparent aversion towards other groups

for example what's wrong with the Poles?

everyhwere I go people here are speaking about 'chinks' and 'pakis'. i have lived in other towns and cities and to me it sound like something the BNP would come out with, but seems to be somehow normal here.

Mr. Presentable

Ignorance, pure and simple. And, sadly, as the economy worsens, there will be more of it.

Fuinseog

the working class are afraid of foreigners, but I can honestly say for the first time in my life I get to hear the middle class going on about 'chinks' and 'pakis'. its usage had become so normal they don't even seem to mean it in a bad way. is this the way things are in the Midlands?
I wonder to they refer blacks as ****? probably not. that would be racist.

JupiterKid

Sadly, I think all forms of bigotry and discrimination - racism, sexism, homophobia and xenophobia - are growing here Ireland across all spectra of society due in large part to the worsening recession.:(

PaulieD

What do you mean by this, OP? "Newbridge foreigner free?"

D

Historically in times of economic hardship and other times of hardship there is a drift to the political right. When people feel threatened they have a tendency to adopt a tribal "them and us" attitude. They feel wronged and instead of admitting that its just tough **** they like to feel that it is someone else's fault and automatically blame other people based on a superficial differences if they can not find a relevant difference.


Edit: I do not mean to suggest that political right is racist.

Fuinseog

PaulieD wrote: »

What do you mean by this, OP? "Newbridge foreigner free?"

maybe because I lived in larger settlements up until now, but I find anti foreigner sentiment to be strong here in Newbridge. maybe its a rural Ireland kind of thing?
on the other hand there are towns the size of newbridge, Gort in Galway for example that seems to welcome foreigners.

Damien360

Fuinseog wrote: »

maybe because I lived in larger settlements up until now, but I find anti foreigner sentiment to be strong here in Newbridge. maybe its a rural Ireland kind of thing?
on the other hand there are towns the size of newbridge, Gort in Galway for example that seems to welcome foreigners.

Newbridge, Rural ???

I have lived in Newbridge for 15 years, having lived in various towns around the country. I would'nt say Newbridge dislikes foreigners at all, as long as you are working or part of the community.

We had a problem with Roma gypsies for a while, who were very aggressive.

Plenty of poles in the town who have kids and are integrating fully. The polish and lithuanian community is huge in the town. If you talk to any polish person outside of Newbridge, they will tell you that the town is not a good place to be. Reason is many of the poles that came to Newbridge are from a very rough part of Poland. Anecdotal evidence from the polish themselves is that many people wanted by the police back home in that area descended on Newbridge. I don't remember any incidence of trouble that would not be seen in the native Irish townie.

Chinese are becoming less obvious but this was a national thing when the Polish decended on Ireland. They keep to their own community. We cannot be expected to welcome them without actually meeting them.

Pakistani population is small and all appear to work in restaurant trade.

The malaysian population is large and you will see them all out in the markets on Sunday.

The African community (over generalising considering size of the continent) is large but still many in the hotel in the middle of the town. Mainly Nigerian and Ghanan.

Now when it comes to the knackers, we are fast becoming Tuam or Limerick. Vast majority are one large, large family. If you were in the town long enough to know about the fights in Piercetown and any bar you would not be pontificating about the Newbridge anti foreigner sentiment. The kids hit Xtravision most nights, even though many are banned for stealing (talk to the manager there). The cops do absolutely nothing and the evidence of that is in the papers. Many people have had enough of funding the traveller lifestyle and being told they want all the priveleges of owning and settling in a home but none of the responsibilty to your neighbours or neighbourhood. Sure someone else will clean it up.

That attitude is not isolated to Newbridge but is national. I travel the length and breath of the country daily and you would be amazed how the traveller situation comes up in conversation at a lunch break. At least once a week.

What situaiton could you possibly mean I hear you ask ?

Pay no tax. Someone else will do that. There is a government white paper on this very item for travellers.

That gives free medical card for all. Paid for by taxpayer.

God given right to move children in and out of classes when travelling and then complain of lack of education. Even when vast majority are given special needs education. Paid for by taxpayer.

Rubbish that the rest of society has to clean up. Paid for by taxpayer.

Constant in-fighting with no sanctions imposed. Imagine if you and 50 of your neighbours decided to have a scrap in the local field. Bet you would be arrested. Policing cost paid for by taxpayer.

Free solicitor even if you do get in trouble regardless of real obvious income. Paid for by taxpayer.

General blisfull ignorance of the law or just could'nt care less.

Claim to be another racial class, even when settled in homes and not travelling. That gives the right to claim all kinds of behaviour as tradition.

Far from being an underpriveleged class as they often claim, they are in fact some of the most priveleged. Tax and eduacation are just some of the few priveldges.

PaulieD

Good post.

No country has assimilated, never mind accepted the sheer volume of immigrants per capita, that Ireland has in the ast decade. Yet, some want to smear us Irish with the word "racism." If we were racist they would not be here in the first place.

Now we have a situation where the Irish youth are emigrating, but the foreigners still arrive. 60,000 odd this year alone. Lunacy.

Fuinseog

an article in todays indo about two americans getten beaten up in Sallins for having the wrong accent. some people here hate all foreigners whether they be from america, Poland or Nigeria.

Fuinseog

can someone tell where and why this thread has been moved. it was even renamed. surely an explanation should have been given. it is kildare related.

Fuinseog

PaulieD wrote: »

Good post.

No country has assimilated, never mind accepted the sheer volume of immigrants per capita, that Ireland has in the ast decade. Yet, some want to smear us Irish with the word "racism." If we were racist they would not be here in the first place.

Now we have a situation where the Irish youth are emigrating, but the foreigners still arrive. 60,000 odd this year alone. Lunacy.

the rest of teh EU has accpeted milions of foreigners over the past 4 decades e.g France and Germany. we were quick to point out how racist the germans were against the turks, at least when we were basically foreigner free. attitudes changed when johnny foreigner started arriving here.

in the boom years we needed the workers. irish people were no longer content to work in acdonalds, just like in germany. someone has to do the 'dirty' work. having someone beneath us made us feel good.
i was not aware that foreigners were still arriving, maybe to kildare but nationally a significant number of Poles are leaving our shores. poland is the new ireland.

Fuinseog

Damien360 wrote: »

Newbridge, Rural ???

I have lived in Newbridge for 15 years, having lived in various towns around the country. I would'nt say Newbridge dislikes foreigners at all, as long as you are working or part of the community.

We had a problem with Roma gypsies for a while, who were very aggressive.

Plenty of poles in the town who have kids and are integrating fully. The polish and lithuanian community is huge in the town. If you talk to any polish person outside of Newbridge, they will tell you that the town is not a good place to be. Reason is many of the poles that came to Newbridge are from a very rough part of Poland. Anecdotal evidence from the polish themselves is that many people wanted by the police back home in that area descended on Newbridge. I don't remember any incidence of trouble that would not be seen in the native Irish townie.

Chinese are becoming less obvious but this was a national thing when the Polish decended on Ireland. They keep to their own community. We cannot be expected to welcome them without actually meeting them.

Pakistani population is small and all appear to work in restaurant trade.

The malaysian population is large and you will see them all out in the markets on Sunday.

The African community (over generalising considering size of the continent) is large but still many in the hotel in the middle of the town. Mainly Nigerian and Ghanan.

Now when it comes to the knackers, we are fast becoming Tuam or Limerick. Vast majority are one large, large family. If you were in the town long enough to know about the fights in Piercetown and any bar you would not be pontificating about the Newbridge anti foreigner sentiment. The kids hit Xtravision most nights, even though many are banned for stealing (talk to the manager there). The cops do absolutely nothing and the evidence of that is in the papers. Many people have had enough of funding the traveller lifestyle and being told they want all the priveleges of owning and settling in a home but none of the responsibilty to your neighbours or neighbourhood. Sure someone else will clean it up.

That attitude is not isolated to Newbridge but is national. I travel the length and breath of the country daily and you would be amazed how the traveller situation comes up in conversation at a lunch break. At least once a week.

What situaiton could you possibly mean I hear you ask ?

Pay no tax. Someone else will do that. There is a government white paper on this very item for travellers.

That gives free medical card for all. Paid for by taxpayer.

God given right to move children in and out of classes when travelling and then complain of lack of education. Even when vast majority are given special needs education. Paid for by taxpayer.

Rubbish that the rest of society has to clean up. Paid for by taxpayer.

Constant in-fighting with no sanctions imposed. Imagine if you and 50 of your neighbours decided to have a scrap in the local field. Bet you would be arrested. Policing cost paid for by taxpayer.

Free solicitor even if you do get in trouble regardless of real obvious income. Paid for by taxpayer.

General blisfull ignorance of the law or just could'nt care less.

Claim to be another racial class, even when settled in homes and not travelling. That gives the right to claim all kinds of behaviour as tradition.

Far from being an underpriveleged class as they often claim, they are in fact some of the most priveleged. Tax and eduacation are just some of the few priveldges.

Few Irish peopel are naive enough to think that travelelrs don't create problems. as I said in the first post they are disliked all over ireland.

i work in a youth club and was just taken aback by well heeled youngetrs going on about pakis, polacks and chinks.

i know a lot of polish people in ireland, few in Newbridge. it is highly possible that the less well behaved ones have concentrated here, just like the Irish in London were regarded to a large extent as muck savages, due to their primitive behaviour. not true of them all of course, but a few bad apples...
i don't if the poles i know would be integrated. they are young, but don't piss their money away, so maybe they are not. it depends on how you interpret integrated.

Iwasfrozen

Why is Paki a racist word anyway ?
Surely if a Kazakh is from Kazakhstan, an Afghan is from Afghanistan and a kurd is from Kurdistan then why is a Paki not from Pakistan ?

pistolpetes11

Fuinseog wrote: »

maybe because I lived in larger settlements up until now, but I find anti foreigner sentiment to be strong here in Newbridge. maybe its a rural Ireland kind of thing?
on the other hand there are towns the size of newbridge, Gort in Galway for example that seems to welcome foreigners.

Dont agree with you at all, Its a very diverse and mixed community in Newbridge and I for one have never experienced this anti foreigner sentiment.

And I would hardly describe Newbridge as Rural Ireland,

You point about two lads getting beaten up for having the wrong accent , could happen any where , even a lad having a posh accent in an area that doesnt and the reason for this is there will always be gobsh*tes looking for trouble , no matter what

Ziggurat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why is Paki a racist word anyway ?
Surely if a Kazakh is from Kazakhstan, an Afghan is from Afghanistan and a kurd is from Kurdistan then why is a Paki not from Pakistan ?

Because it's "Pakistani". "Paki" has long been used as a racial slur.

Iwasfrozen

Ziggurat wrote: »

Because it's "Pakistani". "Paki" has long been used as a racial slur.

So why is someone from Afghanistan not Afghanistani or from Kazakhstan not Kazakhstani ?
I understand what you're saying but it has no logical meaning.
Just as it makes no sense to me why Negro is considered racist while "black" isn't even though you would think that black has alot more negitive connections.

Ziggurat

No, I suppose it doesn't. My only supposition is that it's simply one of the many irregularities of the English language, though I'm sure finding the etymology of such demonyms would be interesting.

As for negro/black...n*gger has it's root in the word negro, so that may be it.

granturismo

Ziggurat wrote: »

As for negro/black...n*gger has it's root in the word negro, so that may be it.

Possibly - Negro was the 'official term' used in the US and was replaced by 'coloured' and then 'black' which in turn was replaced by 'african american'. Negro probably had negative connotations because it was the term used by states with segregation policies.

Back to middle class racist attitudes. I know people from all walks of life who are racist but one middle class manifestation is a family who are sending their children to a gael scoil even though they have no interest in the language but dont want their children in a class with a majority of 'non-irish' pupils.

Danniboo

granturismo wrote: »

Possibly - Back to middle class racist attitudes. I know people from all walks of life who are racist but one middle class manifestation is a family who are sending their children to a gael scoil even though they have no interest in the language but dont want their children in a class with a majority of 'non-irish' pupils.

Or perhaps they send them to the gael scoil so they practise our religions as main stream religion and in light of all the statues of Mary, crucifixes etc been taken down in schools around Ireland lately to keep people happy. My younger sister is going to a school where they teach all sorts of different religion during school hours, and if she wants to make her confirmation she has to stay back for an hour after school to learn religion. Disgusting.

Pace2008

granturismo wrote: »

Back to middle class racist attitudes. I know people from all walks of life who are racist but one middle class manifestation is a family who are sending their children to a gael scoil even though they have no interest in the language but dont want their children in a class with a majority of 'non-irish' pupils.

Their motives aren't necessarily racist. I know a few primary school teachers, and apparently they have to teach English from the ground up to some non-Irish children since their parents have a rudimentary grasp on the language at best, and don't speak it at all in the home. In a school where there's a high percentage of foreign nationals a significant amount of time is spent trying to get these children to the level where they can follow the curriculum, so the native English speakers' education is compromised as a result.

humanji

Danniboo wrote: »

Or perhaps they send them to the gael scoil so they practise our religions as main stream religion and in light of all the statues of Mary, crucifixes etc been taken down in schools around Ireland lately to keep people happy. My younger sister is going to a school where they teach all sorts of different religion during school hours, and if she wants to make her confirmation she has to stay back for an hour after school to learn religion. Disgusting.

The way it should be. Why should someone have a religion forced on them?

Fuinseog

humanji wrote: »

The way it should be. Why should someone have a religion forced on them?

hear hear. I think I will go to Saudi Arabia and tell them that.

we bend over backwards to accomodate all religions, yet when we go to their country we have to adapt ourselves to their ways.

to the best of my knowledge Catholic schools in ireland promote the religion. other religions have to deal with that or go to a nondenomminational school, although from my experience such schools are academically not the best.

billy the squid

Danniboo wrote: »

Or perhaps they send them to the gael scoil so they practise our religions as main stream religion and in light of all the statues of Mary, crucifixes etc been taken down in schools around Ireland lately to keep people happy. My younger sister is going to a school where they teach all sorts of different religion during school hours, and if she wants to make her confirmation she has to stay back for an hour after school to learn religion. Disgusting.

No religion should have preferrential treatment in schools. If parents want their children to be religeous, they should send them to a sunday school or indoctrinate them themselves.

I despise the idea that taxpayers money is used to promote one religeon.

Nodin

Fuinseog wrote: »

hear hear. I think I will go to Saudi Arabia and tell them that.

we bend over backwards to accomodate all religions, yet when we go to their country we have to adapt ourselves to their ways.

So, to sum up, we should be like the Saudis?

quagmire123

Damien360 wrote: »

Newbridge, Rural ???

I have lived in Newbridge for 15 years, having lived in various towns around the country. I would'nt say Newbridge dislikes foreigners at all, as long as you are working or part of the community.

We had a problem with Roma gypsies for a while, who were very aggressive.

Plenty of poles in the town who have kids and are integrating fully. The polish and lithuanian community is huge in the town. If you talk to any polish person outside of Newbridge, they will tell you that the town is not a good place to be. Reason is many of the poles that came to Newbridge are from a very rough part of Poland. Anecdotal evidence from the polish themselves is that many people wanted by the police back home in that area descended on Newbridge. I don't remember any incidence of trouble that would not be seen in the native Irish townie.

Chinese are becoming less obvious but this was a national thing when the Polish decended on Ireland. They keep to their own community. We cannot be expected to welcome them without actually meeting them.

Pakistani population is small and all appear to work in restaurant trade.

The malaysian population is large and you will see them all out in the markets on Sunday.

The African community (over generalising considering size of the continent) is large but still many in the hotel in the middle of the town. Mainly Nigerian and Ghanan.

Now when it comes to the knackers, we are fast becoming Tuam or Limerick. Vast majority are one large, large family. If you were in the town long enough to know about the fights in Piercetown and any bar you would not be pontificating about the Newbridge anti foreigner sentiment. The kids hit Xtravision most nights, even though many are banned for stealing (talk to the manager there). The cops do absolutely nothing and the evidence of that is in the papers. Many people have had enough of funding the traveller lifestyle and being told they want all the priveleges of owning and settling in a home but none of the responsibilty to your neighbours or neighbourhood. Sure someone else will clean it up.

That attitude is not isolated to Newbridge but is national. I travel the length and breath of the country daily and you would be amazed how the traveller situation comes up in conversation at a lunch break. At least once a week.

What situaiton could you possibly mean I hear you ask ?

Pay no tax. Someone else will do that. There is a government white paper on this very item for travellers.

That gives free medical card for all. Paid for by taxpayer.

God given right to move children in and out of classes when travelling and then complain of lack of education. Even when vast majority are given special needs education. Paid for by taxpayer.

Rubbish that the rest of society has to clean up. Paid for by taxpayer.

Constant in-fighting with no sanctions imposed. Imagine if you and 50 of your neighbours decided to have a scrap in the local field. Bet you would be arrested. Policing cost paid for by taxpayer.

Free solicitor even if you do get in trouble regardless of real obvious income. Paid for by taxpayer.

General blisfull ignorance of the law or just could'nt care less.

Claim to be another racial class, even when settled in homes and not travelling. That gives the right to claim all kinds of behaviour as tradition.

Far from being an underpriveleged class as they often claim, they are in fact some of the most priveleged. Tax and eduacation are just some of the few priveldges.

Excellent post. i grew up in newbridge, but haven't lived there for about 16 years or so. the town has changed so much in the last few years. 20years ago there were rough parts of town, just like any other town, now, i'm told the no go areas are becoming more prevalent. don't think it's don to the poles or paki's though. The knackers moved into parts of town, Piercetown in particular, and bought up small two bed semi detached houses. They then proceeded to build "extensions" to these houses. The extensions comprise of at least four bedrooms (estimate given the size of the buildings), drive ways are all cobble locked, huge garages built to house their furniture business among other things. All are driving well and almost all are claiming social welfare ( they are seen in the queues at the p.o.). Best of all, these extensions were built without planning permission.

Nobody seems to want to take on the knackers out of fear of being branded racist.

I don't think that a day goes past that the papers don't have reference to organised crime, "Gangland". The biggest gang of highly organised criminals in this country are without doubt the knackers. ( I use the term knacker not to be gratuitously racist. i know that there are a few genuine travellers in the country so i don't want to use that term.)

Orizio

Fuinseog wrote: »

the working class are afraid of foreigners,

Fuinseog wrote:

maybe its a rural Ireland kind of thing?

Possibly you should look at your own prejudices before judging others. :rolleyes:

Fuinseog

Nodin wrote: »

So, to sum up, we should be like the Saudis?

i think foreigners living and working among us should adapt themselves to a certain extent. while PC started out with noble ambitions it has become ridiculous.
why should we bend over backwards to accomodate them in everyway, even to disadvantage our own citizens when they are not prepared to reciprocate_ because we are an advanced race? hardly.

in Turkey the headscarf is forbidden at university and for anyone holding office, so the more conservative Turks go abroad where their conservatism is entertained.
the headscarf is an interesting can of worms. to the best of my knowledge it is not a religious symbol. where in the koran is it stated that women have to wear one?

Fuinseog

Nobody seems to want to take on the knackers out of fear of being branded racist.

I don't think that a day goes past that the papers don't have reference to organised crime, "Gangland". The biggest gang of highly organised criminals in this country are without doubt the knackers. ( I use the term knacker not to be gratuitously racist. i know that there are a few genuine travellers in the country so i don't want to use that term.)[/quote]


interesting observation. i am new to this town so I am eager to hear different views. why do they descend on Newbridge and not NAAS or Athy?there does seem to be an uncouth element abroad in this town. touch wood I haven't been broken into yet.

Fuinseog

Orizio wrote: »

Possibly you should look at your own prejudices before judging others. :rolleyes:

I studied the whole xenophobic thing on a scientific level and studies have shown that the working class fear foreigners because they could take away their jobs. this is not my opinion, but that of researchers and is prevalent throughout the world.
the middle class on the other hand generally do not employ 'racist' discourse. they do not perceive a f oreigner to be a threta in the same way.

in my original posts I pointed out that i found it unusual that middle classes here used the terms 'paki' and 'chink', which tends to be more prevalent in the less well educated.

foxcomm

This post has been deleted.

Fuinseog

Fuinseog wrote: »

I studied the whole xenophobic thing on a scientific level and studies have shown that the working class fear foreigners because they could take away their jobs. this is not my opinion, but that of researchers and is prevalent throughout the world.

Interesting that you would study it on a scientific level when you're obviously having problems describing the study in sentences and secondly, seemingly fail to recognise the difference between cultures. Throw in this off-hand use of "working class" and I'm seriously wondering where you got your information. Lastly, you're employing massive generalisations in class format... something which isn't particularly popular anymore. Some serious linkage perhaps, so i can read some of this research and make sure its not the BMP?

Just in regards to the Midlands, which another poster mentioned.... I live in Athlone, and I've heard no mention of these chinks or other such words. Usually people have used the full description of Chinese or Indian. Some ignorance in using Chinese to describe Malay, Japanese, etc as all being Chinese but nothing particularly racist.


As for "Travelers", they've been a sore spot for "most" Irish people for generations, and I fully admit to being a passive racist towards them. Never quite figured out what was so special about them, and why they received so many more benefits than normal citizens, considering it comes down to different life choices.

Nodin

Fuinseog wrote: »

why should we bend over backwards to accomodate them in everyway, even to disadvantage our own citizens when they are not prepared to reciprocate_ because we are an advanced race? hardly.?

You might be as good as to elaborate, with a few specific examples.