Wearing a skirt

Oldfool

My boss insists that i wear a skirt to work. It is very inconvenient in the cold weather. i wore trousers in one day an the boss locked the ladies toiet and pretended he couldn't find the key. Then he made remarks that I did not look any different from a man and so using the gents should not be a problem. Is this legal?

Keano

Is your boss a joker because I hope this is one big joke? :eek:

Even if it is a joke, time to put a stop to it now.

MarkR

Computer says no. Linky

Ask about an employee handbook. Equalty Authority may be worth a bookmark...

markpb

MarkR wrote: »

Computer says no. Linky

That story is incredible - they tried to claim women should wear skirts on hygiene grounds!

InReality

It never fails to amaze me the stuff people have to put up with in work. Your boss is totally out of order.

monkeypants

Your boss is a clown. You should sue him just to see the look on his face.

Seriously, start documenting this stuff. What was done/said and when. If he's as cavalier towards the law as you make out, he'll probably try and fire you at some point.

Jo King

There are a lot of people who would prefer to be at work wearing a skirt than having to stay at home, even though they can wear what they like at home. A skirt is a standard item of clothing. I have had jobs where my work clothing made me a figure of ridicule outside of work.

Hathor

Unless you have a work uniform that you are required to wear, then yes it is illegal! That is a disgrace, you can of course be asked to dress smartly and professionally but it is up to you whether you wear a skirt or trousers. In the Employment Equality Act 1998 - 2008, it was deemed that telling women they have to wear skirts is discriminatory on gender grounds. You should bring this to your boss's attention or sue him for discrimination!

pebbles21

Jo King wrote: »

There are a lot of people who would prefer to be at work wearing a skirt than having to stay at home, even though they can wear what they like at home. A skirt is a standard item of clothing. I have had jobs where my work clothing made me a figure of ridicule outside of work.

I take it you were just doing as your username suggests?

Oldfool

thanks everyone for the replies. The boss has written and "unwritten" rules. He is very adept at keeping things off paper. the punishments for breaking the unwritten rules are always indirect. He "loses" keys, the heating system "breaks down", "emergencies" requiring pre-booked days off to be cancelled.
He is also devious in finding breaches of the written rules and keeping it under wraps until it suits him. I typed a letter for my brother, applying for a job on an office computer. Six months later he confronts me with it saying I was in breach of the IT policy. He knew all along, but was holding back on saying it.

Eoin

Then I think you need to find a different job. You might win this battle, but it sounds like there will just be something else down the road where the legislation may not be as clear, or he can act the arse as you have described above.

Keano

Jo King wrote: »

There are a lot of people who would prefer to be at work wearing a skirt than having to stay at home, even though they can wear what they like at home. A skirt is a standard item of clothing. I have had jobs where my work clothing made me a figure of ridicule outside of work.

This :rolleyes: was invented for posts like that.

OP I know times are tough but you cannot subject yourself to that. Perhaps contact citizens advice bureau and they may be able to put you on to the appropriate people.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

eoin wrote: »

Then I think you need to find a different job. You might win this battle, but it sounds like there will just be something else down the road where the legislation may not be as clear, or he can act the arse as you have described above.

WTF? Not at all... even in this climate, people still have rights. Sounds like her boss is a sexist pig.

Keano A Legend wrote: »

This :rolleyes: was invented for posts like that.

OP I know times are tough but you cannot subject yourself to that. Perhaps contact citizens advice bureau and they may be able to put you on to the appropriate people.

I can tell you this now. With remarks like that comming from your boss, he is 100% in the wrong. Where it is stated in your contract about your aparel, it might have something about wearing a skirt. It may not either. Check it out op.

Jo King

Keano A Legend wrote: »

This :rolleyes: was invented for posts like that.

Obviously have never had to wear a hotel porter's uniform in public.

Eoin

Kaiden Spoiled Watermelon wrote: »

WTF? Not at all... even in this climate, people still have rights. Sounds like her boss is a sexist pig.

What exactly are you WTF-ing about? I never said she didn't have rights; I said that while it is clear who is in the wrong in this instance, the boss sounds like the type of person who will act the prick about something else, where it might not be as easy to prove.

Milk & Honey

Oldfool wrote: »

thanks everyone for the replies. The boss has written and "unwritten" rules. He is very adept at keeping things off paper. the punishments for breaking the unwritten rules are always indirect. He "loses" keys, the heating system "breaks down", "emergencies" requiring pre-booked days off to be cancelled.
He is also devious in finding breaches of the written rules and keeping it under wraps until it suits him. I typed a letter for my brother, applying for a job on an office computer. Six months later he confronts me with it saying I was in breach of the IT policy. He knew all along, but was holding back on saying it.

Sounds very like my boss. He absolutely hates seeing women wear trousers. He refuses to go to restaurants where the waitresses wear trousers. The handbook specifically requires smart dress and that there is a choice of wearing skirt or trousers. He is always finding fault with anyone who wears trousers. He says that when they are not properly pressed that they are in breach of the dress code. A small crease is enough to bring on a verbal warning. No flexibilty is shown to trousers wearers. Never a minute off early or forgiveness for a minute late.
Any female sales rep who comes wearing trousers is escorted to the door immediately and addressed as mister.
His favourite saying is "when you join the army you have to wear the boots".
He is a good boss otherwise so nobody really wants to leave. It is either put up or shut up.

Alun

Unbelievable ... I never realised such dinosaurs still existed. If he tried that nonsense on with my wife, he wouldn't know what hit him, I can guarantee!

Mrs OBumble

Jo King wrote: »

Obviously have never had to wear a hotel porter's uniform in public.

I've never seen a hotel porters uniform that includes an item so ridiculous as a skirt, though!

OP, you have my sympathies. Like another poster, I thought clowns like this had all be retired out to pasture by now. Obviously not. Personally, I'd fight back: start by making it clear that you'll be telling all your female friends about his attitudes, and that it will have consequences for his business and ability to hire staff in future. Stunts like locking the toilet door should be disucssed with NERA (and possibly the local newspaper!) immediately when they happen.

As for the other poster whose boss says "when you join the army, you have to wear the boots", the answser is that's absolutely correct. Boots. Not ridiculous high heels. Female soldiers wear trousers, not skirts. Etc.

SIX PACK

He sounds like a pervert to be honest.

fret_wimp

Confront him.

Recently, a friend who works for a pretty big financial company in telesales was told that he had to cut his hair and remove his ear piercings. He doesnt look like a punk or anything, he has wavy hair that comes down around his ears, and an ear piercing in each ear.

HR told him they did not tolerate long hair and ear piercings. he said that was perfectly fine, as long as women had to abide by the same policy. HR were shocked, but rather than deal with the equality issues, sexual discirmination issues and other such things they just left him alone!

You need to just wear trousers. If he doesnt like it, he doesnt like it. if he gives out, ask for a written warning, stating he is not happy with you wearing trousers. all you need is one letter or one email showing his views...

mood

This is terrible. Companies will continue to treat staff badly until they get sued, reported to the NERA etc. I'm not suggesting you do this unless you feel you have no other choice.

cunnins4

what an arsehole. Document it. Set up the oul voice recorder on your phone and get his comments recorded.

Then sue him.

My ex had a boss like that who made the most absurd comments about her appearance and tried to make her wear certain types of clothing (he even told her not to wear white as it "flushed her out"!). Unfortunately she was getting cash in hand at the time so there was sweet f.a. she could do about it realistically.

mood

cunnins4 wrote: »

what an arsehole. Document it. Set up the oul voice recorder on your phone and get his comments recorded.

Then sue him.

My ex had a boss like that who made the most absurd comments about her appearance and tried to make her wear certain types of clothing (he even told her not to wear white as it "flushed her out"!). Unfortunately she was getting cash in hand at the time so there was sweet f.a. she could do about it realistically.

Is it legal to record a conversation like that?

cunnins4

mood wrote: »

Is it legal to record a conversation like that?

I don't see why it wouldn't be? The guy's clearly in the wrong and the only proof of the things he's saying is a witness or a recording?

If i'm wrong, someone please correct me.

Eoin

cunnins4 wrote: »

I don't see why it wouldn't be? The guy's clearly in the wrong and the only proof of the things he's saying is a witness or a recording?

If i'm wrong, someone please correct me.

Here's a related thread about that.

cunnins4

eoin wrote: »

Here's a related thread about that.

Thanks for that. I'm in no position to offer any legal advice, so I'll leave it at that. I think the other thread linked above is a good starting point.

Thanks Eoin.

Milk & Honey

There is no chance of catching my boss like that. He never puts anything in writing and anthing he says is always in a different context. He has a couple of employees who do everything he asks. They sit down beside you and say "john does not like......". "john gets upset by....". He has been take to the EAT 4 times in the last few years. One case settled and he won all of the others. The case that settled was because it turned out the girl was pregnant at the time she was sacked but nobody knew. Even at that the settlement was only three months wages. It is not worth trying to best him. It is almost certain to result in the sack and a poor reference.

Thicktights

It is ridiculous that employers can't say what clothes employees should wear. If employees take a job with a particular dress code they should stick with it rather than complaining afterwards. I am sure the o/p had to wear a skirt to school and did not complain about it.

Eoin

Maybe it wouldn't be a legal issue if the women's dress code was the same as men's.

mood

Thicktights wrote: »

It is ridiculous that employers can't say what clothes employees should wear. If employees take a job with a particular dress code they should stick with it rather than complaining afterwards. I am sure the o/p had to wear a skirt to school and did not complain about it.

1. The OP is not in school.

2. There doesn't seem to be a uniform or any written rule about a dress code.

3. What he is doing is illegal.

How does weather the OP wears a pants or skirt effect her ability to do her job? It doesn't.

I would wear the most unflattering, lest reveling skirts I could find then get out of there as soon as the recession is over if you don't want to go down the legal path.

Oldfool

Well I did it again. Wore trousers in yesterday. The boss called me in to his office and looked at me as if i was a piece of dirt and said he wanted a report for the next day. next thing the lights went in the ladies. It supposedly needed an electrician to fix it. While I was out at lunchtime the "electrician" came. My computer was turned off. When I started it up, the report I had been working on all morning was missing. After lunch the boss called me in and asked for the report. He refused to accept my explanation and called me incompetent. I ended up having to stay late to finish the report, despite having arranged to mind my niece after work. Lesson learned.I won't do it again.

mood

Oldfool wrote: »

Well I did it again. Wore trousers in yesterday. The boss called me in to his office and looked at me as if i was a piece of dirt and said he wanted a report for the next day. next thing the lights went in the ladies. It supposedly needed an electrician to fix it. While I was out at lunchtime the "electrician" came. My computer was turned off. When I started it up, the report I had been working on all morning was missing. After lunch the boss called me in and asked for the report. He refused to accept my explanation and called me incompetent. I ended up having to stay late to finish the report, despite having arranged to mind my niece after work. Lesson learned.I won't do it again.

:eek:

Like I said before I would just put up with it until the economy picks up then get out of there. You probably can't win with such a thick p**ck. some of thee days I hope he get sued.

petes

To be honest he sounds like a cnut.

MysticalRain

Is your boss's name David Brent by any chance?

Mrs OBumble

Oldfool wrote: »

Well I did it again. Wore trousers in yesterday. The boss called me in to his office and looked at me as if i was a piece of dirt and said he wanted a report for the next day. next thing the lights went in the ladies. It supposedly needed an electrician to fix it. While I was out at lunchtime the "electrician" came. My computer was turned off. When I started it up, the report I had been working on all morning was missing. After lunch the boss called me in and asked for the report. He refused to accept my explanation and called me incompetent. I ended up having to stay late to finish the report, despite having arranged to mind my niece after work. Lesson learned.I won't do it again.

Document all this stuff. And make it clear to him (perhaps via someone else who will tell him for you ... does he have any spies among your colleagues?) that you're documenting.

Even if you never use it, 'tis handy material to have around.

Mrs OBumble

Thicktights wrote: »

It is ridiculous that employers can't say what clothes employees should wear. If employees take a job with a particular dress code they should stick with it rather than complaining afterwards. I am sure the o/p had to wear a skirt to school and did not complain about it.

Employers can say what clothes employees should wear.

What they can't do is say that women have to wear items of clothing that are cold and impractical, while men don't have to do so.

Most schools these days have uniforms that include trousers for girls, surely.

Mental Mickey

Have you got a union rep where you work? Bring the issue up with him/her?

Oldfool

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Have you got a union rep where you work? Bring the issue up with him/her?

I rang the union official. He referred me to the equality officer. She asked me how much I was earning and what duties I had. she says I won't get as good a job again if I leave. She said that if she pursued it I would have to move job. The only other job available in the company is at a location 20 miles away. She says it happens often. Unless there is very clear proof it is difficult to get anywhere. I will be accused of trying to coverr up under-performance. She says that it is a fairly mild form of harassment. In some situations there are much worse abuses,involving groping and demands for sex etc.She also advised me against looking like a sack in an effort to get one back. If i try to defy the boss the situation will become very stressful.

mood

I suppose just put up with it until you can find another job. With the economy as it is it could take a while and you will also want a good reference.

I would imagine with any harassment there is very little proof. It's not like a boss will put it in writing!

Mental Mickey

Oldfool wrote: »

I rang the union official. He referred me to the equality officer. She asked me how much I was earning and what duties I had. she says I won't get as good a job again if I leave. She said that if she pursued it I would have to move job. The only other job available in the company is at a location 20 miles away. She says it happens often. Unless there is very clear proof it is difficult to get anywhere. I will be accused of trying to coverr up under-performance. She says that it is a fairly mild form of harassment. In some situations there are much worse abuses,involving groping and demands for sex etc.She also advised me against looking like a sack in an effort to get one back. If i try to defy the boss the situation will become very stressful.

If you don't mind me saying, your union rep is *****.:rolleyes:

ScouseMouse

Mental Mickey wrote: »

If you don't mind me saying, your union rep is *****.:rolleyes:

Or a realist. Its possible, but most of them are in cloud cuckoo land.

Mrs OBumble

Mental Mickey wrote: »

If you don't mind me saying, your union rep is *****.:rolleyes:

What would you have expected the union official to have said?

Zamboni

I can't believe what I am reading here.

Wear a skirt, shut up moaning and be greatful you have a job???

Is it 1982?

Oldfool be proactive for christ sake.

Make a diary of everything this creep does. Document it, record it the lot.
Build up a case over time if you have to.
Watch your own work and make sure he has no grounds for incompetency.
Double save files in an obscure folder if you have to.
Personally, I think the response from your union/equality officer is decidedly weak.
No woman person deserves this type of treatment in the workplace.

Is your boss middle/senior management/owner?

Shaws

OP, that's awful, I feel really bad for you.

Life is hard enough, without having to deal with some poo head who's on a power trip 5 days a week.

Don't worry, there's always karma!

Oldfool

Zamboni wrote: »

I can't believe what I am reading here.

Wear a skirt, shut up moaning and be greatful you have a job???

Is it 1982?

Oldfool be proactive for christ sake.

Make a diary of everything this creep does. Document it, record it the lot.
Build up a case over time if you have to.
Watch your own work and make sure he has no grounds for incompetency.
Double save files in an obscure folder if you have to.
Personally, I think the response from your union/equality officer is decidedly weak.
No woman person deserves this type of treatment in the workplace.

Is your boss middle/senior management/owner?

My boss is a brother in law of the MD. I think he has a shareholding in the company. He is credited with turning the company around after he came into it about 5 years ago. They were losing money hand over fiost before he started.In a contest between me and the boss there would only be one winner. The union rep siad she has been involved with these situations for 30 years. Any kind of interpersonal dispute almost always ends up with the junior employee having to move job. Quite often the junior employee spends a lot of time being stressed out and isolated at work. She is quite happy to write to the company head office if I want and go and attend meetings. It will inevitably end up with an EAT claim. It is easier to humour the boss than go through all of that.
I cant store any kind of personal data ion a work computer. The machines are linked on a server and activity on all files is checked. I know because one day my boss was able to tell me what I had done on a file the previous day, before I could say that i was even dealing with that file.

Cabaal

Jo King wrote: »

Obviously have never had to wear a hotel porter's uniform in public.

The OP clearly doesn't have a unifrom at work and as such her boss's remarks are well out of order,

monkeypants

There's no happy ending to this one I feel. Keep your head down, work away and find yourself another job.

thebouldwhacker

Code of Practice for Employers and Employees on the Prevention and Resolution of Bullying at Work

http://www.equality.ie/

If you can not resolve the issue not, keep a detailed diary, read the code above and when the time is right take him to the cleaners:), done right you being patient may cost him more than he could ever imagine;)

Thicktights

Oldfool wrote: »

Well I did it again. Wore trousers in yesterday. The boss called me in to his office and looked at me as if i was a piece of dirt and said he wanted a report for the next day. next thing the lights went in the ladies. It supposedly needed an electrician to fix it. While I was out at lunchtime the "electrician" came. My computer was turned off. When I started it up, the report I had been working on all morning was missing. After lunch the boss called me in and asked for the report. He refused to accept my explanation and called me incompetent. I ended up having to stay late to finish the report, despite having arranged to mind my niece after work. Lesson learned.I won't do it again.

Not before its time that you have learned some manners and have begun to show respect for you boss. A lot of businesses are in trouble and the ones which survive are the ones with a good image who pay attention to appearance and detail. I am sure your boss simply wishes to present a good image of the business. Stupid laws just don't allow him to put it in writuing and insist upon it.

the_syco

Thicktights wrote: »

Not before its time that you have learned some manners and have begun to show respect for you boss.

Respect is earned, not given. The boss has lost all respect.

monkeypants

Thicktights wrote: »

Not before its time that you have learned some manners and have begun to show respect for you boss.

I don't see anything in this thread related to the poster's manner's. Respect has to be earned. I think you may be confusing it with fear.

Thicktights wrote: »

I am sure your boss simply wishes to present a good image of the business.

Well, he isn't. Scared employees are a liability as they're spending time worrying about his reaction when they could be paying attention to their work.

Thicktights wrote: »

A lot of businesses are in trouble and the ones which survive are the ones with a good image who pay attention to appearance and detail.

Having a product or service that people need at a price that they're willing to pay is also very important. If his business gets into difficulty, I suspect that he'll take it out on the employees before doing anything about it.

Thicktights wrote: »

Stupid laws just don't allow him to put it in writuing and insist upon it.

Could you please explain this point further? I can't see what is to be learned by switching off the heating, deleting reports and knocking off the lights in the toilets.

However, I suspect that you're playing devil's advocate, which is fine by me.