Can we just all pull together

Milstream

Right first off im 27, i work in the contruction industry as a quantity surveyor bairly hanging onto my job at the mo like most people in the country. Earn roughly 36000 a year. Bought a house two years ago with my partner. yes im sick of looking and hearing the bullsh0t of the public sector unions but Can we all just suffer for the next couple of years and just get this country back on the road again. Im prepared to do it are you?

Milstream

See my friend its people like you that keep going on and on and on and on. SAME old spill coming out. ye i bought a house at the top of the market and i still dont complain so what.

jetfiremuck

The phrase pain is weakness leaving the body now applies fo one and all for the forseeable future. The above post is the typical rant that undermines any sense of moving forward. The crabs in a box syndrome where any crab that tries to get out of the box gets pulled back in. The reality is no one forced any one to either buy a new car, move houses or whatever. The speculators developers blah blah has been beaten to death at this stage. We had near full employment, vat,vrt, stamp, and paye receipts all flowed into the gov either directly or as a result of the boom. No one had any issues with 8€ sandwiches, prices rising faster than inflation even the non national influx was accepted as the Irish replacement for the service industry. Big issue I have is that the people in gov who oversaw this including senior life time civil servants are rewarded with ongoing job security. There is no incentive for anyone to pull together. People are relying on the Gov to take care of them by paying higher taxes for services etc. Therein lies the dilemma. How knowing the performance of the various elected leaders in the past year or so could instill confidence in anyone public or private sector is beyond me. The old adage of pigs get fat hogs get slaughtered certainly applies to those who are on the ropes now.

Milstream

Wasn't it builders, developers and muppets overpaying for land and houses that caused a lot of this mess?

Muppets overpaying for houses is that not a bit harse. Come on we all enjoyed the last few years. Bet you did?

Kensington

Why should someone who saved their ass off, controlled their spending and lived within their means through the boom years have to "share the pain" with someone who lived beyond their means, bought into property they really couldn't afford and entered loans they had no capacity to enter into and are now faced the prospect of financial ruin?

Yes, it is harsh, I feel sorry you find yourself in such a tough position and it is a situation I would wish upon no-one but this is reality - YOU made the decisions, no-one else, now YOU must live with the results of YOUR decisions.

P. Breathnach

Kensington wrote: »

Why should someone who saved their ass off, controlled their spending and lived within their means through the boom years have to "share the pain" with someone who lived beyond their means, bought into property they really couldn't afford and entered loans they had no capacity to enter into and are now faced the prospect of financial ruin?

Yes, it is harsh, I feel sorry you find yourself in such a tough position and it is a situation I would wish upon no-one but this is reality - YOU made the decisions, no-one else, now YOU must live with the results of YOUR decisions.

The day may come when you need help. I hope that you encounter people of kinder disposition than that you show here.

Milstream

I do live with the results.Hands up im guilty i bought a house.Thats the point im trying to make. I dont feel one bit sorry myself. i just want to get this country back on its knees.

Milstream

mikemac wrote: »

You are here since 2008, surely you learned to quote since then

Indeed I did have a great time in the Celtic Tiger period but I surely didn't buy an overpriced house but hey, my payslip is your payslip so hike up those tax rates as I'll pay.
No, I don't have the least bit in common with you

What did you buy mikemac.

Kensington

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The day may come when you need help. I hope that you encounter people of kinder disposition than that you show here.

If it's a result of my budgeting (or lack thereof), I will have no-one but myself to blame.

jayo007

put sinn fein in goverment they can supply us with arms and we can go looking for the bankers

Liam Byrne

Milstream wrote: »

i just want to get this country back on its knees.

I presume that was posted in error ? Freudian slip, though : the banking and construction industry, facilitated by the Government, have "put the country on its knees", and we need to get it back on its feet

Taxipete29

Kensington wrote: »

Why should someone who saved their ass off, controlled their spending and lived within their means through the boom years have to "share the pain" with someone who lived beyond their means, bought into property they really couldn't afford and entered loans they had no capacity to enter into and are now faced the prospect of financial ruin?
.

For the same reason that all those of us who didnt vote FF/ PD or Green still have to live with the consequences imposed on us by those that did.

mikemac

mikemac wrote: »

Sorry Milstream, I hoping for house prices to crash to the floor and even below the floor and you aren't.

House prices crashing to the floor would be good for no one really, anyone with a tiny bit of common sense could figure out that if house prices really do go very very low (at the mo I think they are value in most places) financial state of the country will reach a state of critical ill health the effects of which would be catastrophic for the entire nation.

If you had approx €60 / €70 k saved up and could by a house for that that was €350+ at the peak that isn't a good situation even for the person with the cash saved up. Think about it.

jetfiremuck

Let's pick the over priced house apart. Whenever you bought you paid market value at the house. If you had the house you lived in owned for a few years you got a great bounce, however the cost to change is the important number. Just like your wages. The nett is the comarable number not gross. As I see it if you are not selling and can stay put you should be ok. That said is anyone really thinking the effect of an ECB interest increase alone will have on those who are tight on cash now. To me rates will inch up once mainland Europe starts to lift however Ireland being on the fringe will I think suffer greatly as the service sector which is a big employer will see no increase in employment.

baaaa

This is what you're up against OP,pretty much the same thing that got us here.
We are a nation of thick me feiners,the amount of people I talk to who have no ability to see beyond their own noses.
Nobody wants to take cuts yet nobody has any other solutions.
It sickens me,the people who complain about cuts the most never seem to know the basics like how much the country takes in and spends,all they know is that they were earning x last year and now they're earning less and they don't like it.

MaceFace

OP: I agree with you - we need to actually start thinking about what brings us together rather than what diffrenciates us.
The unfortunate thing though is that many people who trawl these sites just want to argue for the sake of arguing and if you were to see these people in the flesh we would probably generally get on.

What we actually need is a common enemy. May I suggest the politicians :-)

gurramok

RoverJames wrote: »

House prices crashing to the floor would be good for no one really, anyone with a tiny bit of common sense could figure out that if house prices really do go very very low (at the mo I think they are value in most places) financial state of the country will reach a state of critical ill health the effects of which would be catastrophic for the entire nation.

If you had approx €60 / €70 k saved up and could by a house for that that was €350+ at the peak that isn't a good situation even for the person with the cash saved up. Think about it.

And whats wrong with low house prices?

Exactly who benefits from high house prices? (hint:it ain't the consumer)

harsea8

OP, by the look of the responses on here, I'd say no

baaaa

So headwrecking,so many ps workers bleating in unison.
Not one of them realises that they are only hastening their demise at the hands of the imf.Ignorance is bliss I suppose.
Why should we let them drag us down with them?

jayo007

dry your eyes son!

baaaa

jayo007 wrote: »

dry your eyes son!

lame

Dannyboy83

I don't see how group masturbation is going to get us out of this crisis.
I'll get me coat.


Honestly OP, you're asking the impossible.
Irish society has been halved, then those halves have been quartered.
And all sections are bitterly opposed to each other, all groups guarding their own pot.

Its temping to say "Divide & Conquer" on behalf of the Irish government.
I prefer to think of it as "Deep set corruption & utter lack of leadership ability" on behalf of El Cowen.

mathie

gurramok wrote: »

And whats wrong with low house prices?

Exactly who benefits from high house prices? (hint:it ain't the consumer)

Agreed,
High prices are what is killing us as a nation.
In the Metro today someone pointed out it's 6 euro for a beer and 3 euro for a coffee in Ireland. On the continent it's 3 euro for a beer and 1 euro for a coffee.
Apply that to houses, cars, pretty much everything is cheaper abroad.

diverdriver

The answer is no, milstream. The reasons as addressed on this thread and one or two others is that we in this country have no real sense of nationhood. Shocking as that may sound. I really don't believe we actually see ourselves in terms of being Irish. It's all down to the county you live in, town, village or the group you are a member of, be it farmers, doctors, soldiers, sailors or candlestickmakers. Dannyboy and baa expressed similar sentiments.

It's rare that you hear of a politician speak for the county as a whole. They only look after their constituents. Decisions are often made for local purposes rather than strategic reasons.

So we don't want to work together for the good of all. We want to protect what he have and to hell with the rest. We are still essentially tribal in character. That's how the English had no real trouble taking over all those years ago and why we continue to come across as a immature disordered country.

We have no strong leadership, just a bunch of self serving second rate politicians out for their own gain, not to mention a Taoiseach who only got the job because the last one had his hand in till and because he was next in line within the party.

Then of course we have the traditional begrudgers, the Kensintons. Damm you milstream for trying to improve your lot and believing that there was more to life than scrimping and saving and that you could actually live in a nice house just like all those other people. Don't you know your place? It's your mistake to imagine for a moment that Ireland is just like all the other countries in Europe, comfortable, free and rich. We should have stayed poor and drunk.

So will we pull together, No, not a chance. This country needs to change.

bangersandmash

diverdriver wrote: »

Don't you know your place? It's your mistake to imagine for a moment that Ireland is just like all the other countries in Europe, comfortable, free and rich. We should have stayed poor and drunk.

The problem was that we began to imagine we were better than the other countries in Europe, deserving of greater comfort and wealth. Believing that we have an economy comparable to the German or French economy does not make it so. Nothing wrong with aspirations, once they're tempered with reality.

Noreen1

MaceFace wrote: »

OP:

What we actually need is a common enemy. May I suggest the politicians :-)

I couldn't agree more! May I suggest that we add the Board Members of our Banks? (You know, the ones who are walking off with huge pensions and bonuses!)

Noreen

diverdriver

bangersandmash wrote: »

The problem was that we began to imagine we were better than the other countries in Europe, deserving of greater comfort and wealth. Believing that we have an economy comparable to the German or French economy does not make it so. Nothing wrong with aspirations, once they're tempered with reality.

We shouldn't be comparing ourselves to France or Germany but to the smaller countries of Europe of comparable size or population. Belgium, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden. They all remained more comfortable and in the case of Norway certainly the richest.

Absurdum

baaaa wrote: »

So headwrecking,so many ps workers bleating in unison.
Not one of them realises that they are only hastening their demise at the hands of the imf.Ignorance is bliss I suppose.
Why should we let them drag us down with them?

oh the irony

rebel10

I absolutely hate this private v public sector crap. I am a teacher and ya i think i cud definately take a pay cut to help out, so long as everyone earning more than me also does, including private sector. I earn bout 400 a week so won't be hard findin those that earn more than me. By the way can i just state that my mother who is a teacher for the last 39 yrs is earning bout 600 a week, please realise that we never went for our jobs for the money. Still livin at home, teaching for 5 yrs now and no more secure than anyone of my friends in the private sector, not permanent, nor will i be in the next 4 or 5 yrs. Sick of being made to feel guilty for being in a profession that requires you to work overtime without pay constantly and to see people my age going out buying houses, new cars, holidays etc. and then complaining their job is at risk. Prepared to take a cut cause i have the security of my family lookin after me but feel sorry for those who have mortgages, kids etc and earning the same as me.

SkepticOne

rebel10 wrote: »

Still livin at home, teaching for 5 yrs now and no more secure than anyone of my friends in the private sector, not permanent, nor will i be in the next 4 or 5 yrs.

Unfortunately you are likely to take the brunt of cuts as the unions will be protecting those on permanent contracts.

How can we all "pull together"?
Some people want us to keep borrowing to pay their wages....
Others dont want social welfare cut
Others want low house prices
Others want NAMA to help stabilise their property price

Some people just want a job....
Simple maths will show you that if you pay less you can hire more people so immediately those who want a job are at odds with those who oppose pay cuts.

We cant pull together because we all want different things.

ardmacha

I am a teacher and ya i think i cud definately take a pay cut to help out, so long as everyone earning more than me also does, including private sector. I earn bout 400 a week so won't be hard findin those that earn more than me.

Not an English teacher, most likely not a teacher at all.

dvpower

rebel10 wrote: »

Sick of being made to feel guilty for being in a profession that requires you to work overtime without pay constantly

... you were doing so well up to this point
(bloody teachers:D)

irish_bob

diverdriver wrote: »

We shouldn't be comparing ourselves to France or Germany but to the smaller countries of Europe of comparable size or population. Belgium, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden. They all remained more comfortable and in the case of Norway certainly the richest.

wages here ( especially in the public sector ) are much higher than in those countries , countries which are all bar belguim richer than us

congo_90

So heres an idea.
We have plenty of skilled tradesmen (and women) currently on the bread line yes?

The gov is fooked and we're handing out social welfare (some more money). Now I'm just off the social welfare myself. I should still be on it but took the moral high ground of working a ridiculously low paying job and cutting back big time.

back to my point.

we need

• Proper broadband
• Hospitals
• Schools
• Roads and infrastructure

Lets focus on just one
Schools. I'm only out of school a while now myself. Guess what my classroom was? A freezing cold portacabin.

What do you need to build schools? builders. you need labourers, electricians, plasterers, carpenters. We have a surplus of these people. So instead of putting them in dole ques why not offer an incentive even just 15euro perweek more than the dole and offer them a job to build? that'll start putting tax back into the gov.
these builders need supplies like bricks, lights, wiring, cement,concrete etc.. So now we need roads and trucks and people to drive said trucks! Those trucks can be filled with cement etc which creates even more jobs. someone has to fill that truck. someone had to get that cement. those trucks need maintanance and I happen to know theres 30jobs in one such company relying on trucks.

Now who's gonna pay them? thats right. The gov pays them. The gov takes a small bit of tax off them. They get an educated generation and mammy and daddy keep their jobs to feed their children.
for those who work outside the construction trade then their companies will begin to see some sort of business.
Same for hospitals and roads. If the gov was smart and got things done cheap we'd be back in business!

that school is now built. Stick 40 teachers in there.

Broadband... Well enough people have studied IT courses etc to know what to do!

Sure the gov is broke but a lil loan off the eu and it will all offset within 2-3 years because now we're not paying people to be unemployed but the gov is paying them an honest wage until they can set themselves up!

Think about it. I know i'm not saying it right but it does make sense.

Like I said. I took myself off the social welfare to try help. I'd rather earn a lil and be honest than take off a fellow irishman and then complain. That's not to say those who have mortgages etc should follow me as I have very little debts

dvpower

^^ Sounds like you're calling for a stimulus package. That's already been ruled out. We could not raise money to do this.

The reason that we're looking for €4bn of cuts this year is because if we don't the markets may refuse to lend us the money that we need to pay for our existing commitments.

Gurgle

congo_90 wrote: »

instead of putting them in dole ques why not offer an incentive even just 15euro perweek more than the dole...

And right there is where it all falls apart.
That is never going to work without a real incentive. Remove the dole and make these 25 hour per week minimum wage jobs, then you'll get some takers.

bigeasyeah

NO

ardmacha

That's already been ruled out. We could not raise money to do this.

Now here's an idea. I work for the government. Why not take one month of my salary and give it to a couple of out of work builders. Then give me a voucher for a couple of weeks work from one of these builder types hired by the government, so that I can get my house insulated or painted or whatever. The other half of the builders time could be used fixing a school or insulating the house of an OAP or whatever. I'm happy, the builder is happy, the OAP might even be happy. The government saves the dole payments off the national debt.

rebel10

ardmacha wrote: »

Not an English teacher, most likely not a teacher at all.

Charming. Well suppose if thats the reaction i get then perhaps i shouldn't be worried bout helping those who have lost jobs and focus on keeping mine. Not an English teacher and don't know many people that would falsely claim to be right now.

jetfiremuck

Teachers pay reflect work for 9 months of the year. That and security benefits and state guaranteed pension.

bobbyjoe

If Cowen et all weren't earning more than Obama and Fitzy wasn't giving the country the finger I'd take the sharing the pain thing more seriously.

dvpower

ardmacha wrote: »

Now here's an idea. I work for the government. Why not take one month of my salary and give it to a couple of out of work builders. Then give me a voucher for a couple of weeks work from one of these builder types hired by the government, so that I can get my house insulated or painted or whatever. The other half of the builders time could be used fixing a school or insulating the house of an OAP or whatever. I'm happy, the builder is happy, the OAP might even be happy. The government saves the dole payments off the national debt.

Why are you happy? You just gave up a months pay for a couple of weeks work. You just paid so some OAP could get their house insulated.

mikehn

I dont know about anybody else but I dont lay the blame for the present crisis at the bankers or builders door, I blame the lack of supervision that allowed them to get away with their foolish policies. The present government has a lot to answer for and they are not living up to their responsibilities now.
We need clear decisive leadership, we need a taoiseach that we feel knows what he is doing and is not someone that wont make a decision until he is backed into a corner.
I had a laugh today listening to the Matt Cooper show when he pointed out the the possible scrappage scheme wasnt going to be such a wonderful idea and one of our esteened ministers said; well we have to start somewhere Yes we do when the proposal to reduce some of the ministerial posts was floated the gov line was that it would only save a couple of million and there were more significant aveues to be explored. well it would be a start and it would go some way to to suggest that our politicians are not totally focused on milking joe public for all hes worth.
The senate is another unecessary expense at the moment, it sould at least be suspended for the duration of the nama accord.
Ok rant over (by the way I am a dispirited Fianna Fail supporter) I am not slagging for slaggings sake.

Milstream

diverdriver wrote: »

The answer is no, milstream. The reasons as addressed on this thread and one or two others is that we in this country have no real sense of nationhood. Shocking as that may sound. I really don't believe we actually see ourselves in terms of being Irish. It's all down to the county you live in, town, village or the group you are a member of, be it farmers, doctors, soldiers, sailors or candlestickmakers. Dannyboy and baa expressed similar sentiments.

It's rare that you hear of a politician speak for the county as a whole. They only look after their constituents. Decisions are often made for local purposes rather than strategic reasons.

So we don't want to work together for the good of all. We want to protect what he have and to hell with the rest. We are still essentially tribal in character. That's how the English had no real trouble taking over all those years ago and why we continue to come across as a immature disordered country.

We have no strong leadership, just a bunch of self serving second rate politicians out for their own gain, not to mention a Taoiseach who only got the job because the last one had his hand in till and because he was next in line within the party.

Then of course we have the traditional begrudgers, the Kensintons. Damm you milstream for trying to improve your lot and believing that there was more to life than scrimping and saving and that you could actually live in a nice house just like all those other people. Don't you know your place? It's your mistake to imagine for a moment that Ireland is just like all the other countries in Europe, comfortable, free and rich. We should have stayed poor and drunk.

So will we pull together, No, not a chance. This country needs to change.

We should have stayed poor and drunk. Are you gone crazy. If you asked your parents or grand parents of the hardship they had in years gone by ie the 50's,60's, 70's, 80's. Yes we went crazy borrowing but hey sh8t happens. Lets build a bridge, get over it and move on.

congo_90

*note edited*

dvpower wrote: »

^^ Sounds like you're calling for a stimulus package. That's already been ruled out. We could not raise money to do this.

The reason that we're looking for €4bn of cuts this year is because if we don't the markets may refuse to lend us the money that we need to pay for our existing commitments.

But we're already forkin out money for someone to sit there essentially the tax payer and gov is paying for these people (not specific due to original post just example), to sit there and collect the money which I know is an absolute pain in the hole. Add 15euro more perweek or pay the same rate but take a small amount of income tax. Essentially send someone to work a full week without time and a half and pay them accordingly. (minimum wage) which works out better than the dole and maybe take a small tax (the income levy+15%) so the gov. is getting some sort of return and reducing actual unemployment figures which could open up international resources.

Gurgle wrote: »

And right there is where it all falls apart.
That is never going to work without a real incentive. Remove the dole and make these 25 hour per week minimum wage jobs, then you'll get some takers.

As I say above. Make them work a proper labour's work. give em minimum to 10 euro p/h. Anyone who wants to do it can and contribute to a better Ireland. I cannot emphasise the last point. Do you wanna be known as the lazy man robbing his country or the bread winner out working the honest wage and bringing home enough money to adequately supply said family?

another incentive could be a reduction in fuel bills (electricity, gas/oil) provided you work. This is based on the gov partly owning for example e.s.b and would encourage a strained public service back to life with new force and perks.

This system could work. once the skilled labour market bounces back to level then the rest of the academic (IT, administration etc) jobs should bounce back too due to demand and what I said earlier in terms of broadband etc. People shall have some money but not millions as things won't be over priced. More on this below

However,
hotels and such things will not benefit from my system. not for a while Pubs and restaraunts maybe because people will have some cash.
Irish hotels must lower prices in ~2years to match demand. Pubs and off licences have already began this. Tonight I had a pint for €3.50 in a well established pub. 2 years ago it was €4.30. Again, suppliars and a large cirlce of companies should lower their now pie in the sky profit margins and look after their loyal customers/ employees rather than expecting the same profit.

In conclusion the entire country. Carefully maintained via a tight and restricting budget would bring us out of recession and if prices were somewhat regulated. A lot more jobs could be saved.

ardmacha

Why are you happy? You just gave up a months pay for a couple of weeks work. You just paid so some OAP could get their house insulated.

Something has to give. I would be happy if the money really went on employing people, my salary was not cut for other years and the money did not go to bankers.

congo_90

dvpower wrote: »

Why are you happy? You just gave up a months pay for a couple of weeks work. You just paid so some OAP could get their house insulated.

Not everyone bought their parents/grandparents large modern homes.
not that I'm saying you did but do think about what your saying. I'm sure the poster you quoted was speaking figurativtly, not literally

dvpower

congo_90 wrote: »

Not everyone bought their parents/grandparents large modern homes.
not that I'm saying you did but do think about what your saying. I'm sure the poster you quoted was speaking figurativtly, not literally

No. He was speaking literally.
>>

ardmacha wrote: »

Something has to give. I would be happy if the money really went on employing people, my salary was not cut for other years and the money did not go to bankers.

dvpower

congo_90 wrote: »

But we're already forkin out money for someone to sit there essentially the tax payer and gov is paying for these people (not specific due to original post just example), to sit there and collect the money which I know is an absolute pain in the hole. Add 15euro more perweek or pay the same rate but take a small amount of income tax. Essentially send someone to work a full week without time and a half and pay them accordingly. (minimum wage) which works out better than the dole and maybe take a small tax (the income levy+15%) so the gov. is getting some sort of return and reducing actual unemployment figures which could open up international resources.

Ok. A kind of work for dole+ scheme. Fair enough. I'm not sure the public sector unions would wear it.

congo_90

dvpower wrote: »

Ok. A kind of work for dole+ scheme. Fair enough. I'm not sure the public sector unions would wear it.

Yes.
You raise a very good point. Could we get skilled labour on basic pay (starter pay for pubic sector). This would keep the unions happy.
Note that my idea is based on the gov investing in people not banks for 2-4 years until the people can re-establish themselves on independant companies again but as I pointed out, on restrictions to remove what happened in celtic tiger where even though cost of living was high. The cost of property ownership was 2.3 times what it should have been. I don't have figures to back this up. All is based on personal calculations, observation and general info.
I strongly believe that my 3 last post in this thread will honestly help. Don't bail the banks, Bail Companies. Give them and employees a chance (6 months) with the above system and i'd honestly put 10 years wages on the line to say it would work. The gov Can get this money. We're already 12 billion over our euro limits within the eu agreements. Surely we can push a bit saying we're instantly fixing (or making positive steps to) our economy rather than saying 'sure in 4years time something might happen. Agree?

@dvpower,
Apologeses. I mis-read that post.