Praying to the dead.

NUTLEY BOY

A question for the RCs particularly.

Does the RC Church approve or disapprove of praying to the spirit of a deceased person ?

I am not talking about praying for the spirit of a deceased person.

postcynical

Sorry can't answer with knowledge. But certainly the practice is allowed, even encouraged. Prayers to saints, including Mary especially. If you don't mind I'd like to open your question to other Christians and ask them if they pray to other people who are still alive in body?

chozometroid

I pray to God alone. Only He(unless you pray aloud) can hear, and answer, prayers.

kelly1

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

A question for the RCs particularly.

Does the RC Church approve or disapprove of praying to the spirit of a deceased person ?

I am not talking about praying for the spirit of a deceased person.

Hello Nutley, yes it's allowed to pray to the dead but with the understanding that we are asking for their intercession and not in any way worshipping them. Only God has the power to answer prayers but through God's power, the saints in Heaven have the ability to hear our prayers and intercede for us before God.

We believe that prayers to Mary are particularly effective because she if highly favoured among all creation. So basically what Mary prays for, Mary gets from her Son.

keano_afc

Like chozo, I pray to God alone, as instucted in scripture.

I see no reason to involve a third party in praying, when we can simply talk to God wherever we may be.

kelly1

keano_afc wrote: »

Like chozo, I pray to God alone, as instucted in scripture.

I see no reason to involve a third party in praying, when we can simply talk to God wherever we may be.

Catholics believe that there are already souls of the saved (but not all) in Heaven and that people souls don't rest in some waiting room until the end of time.

I ask people on earth to pray for me and that's not much different to asking the "dead" to pray for us. The Church is composed of the "Pilgrim Church" on earth and the "Church Victorious" in heaven and so we're all part of one Church. We're all brothers and sisters in Christ.

It's not like a seance where you try to make contact! Nobody expects to hear back.

Soul Winner

postcynical wrote: »

Sorry can't answer with knowledge. But certainly the practice is allowed, even encouraged. Prayers to saints, including Mary especially. If you don't mind I'd like to open your question to other Christians and ask them if they pray to other people who are still alive in body?

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." 1 Timothy 2:5

Even in the absence of this verse I wouldn't pray to anyone else. For one, even if the dead could hear you which is unlikely in itself, as the general resurrection of the dead has not taken place yet, but even if they could hear you praying to them ,they cannot do anything for you without the express permission from God anyway. So why talk to the monkey when you can talk to the Organ Grinder? Jesus said to His disciples, when ye pray, say thus and so... Included in the thus and so are the words "Our Father..." which clearly indicates who the object of our prayers should be. Praying to saints and Mary are traditional add ons by the church over the centuries, such practices have no foundation in scripture.

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." 1 Timothy 2:5

Even in the absence of this verse I wouldn't pray to anyone else. For one, even if the dead could hear you which is unlikely in itself, as the general resurrection of the dead has not taken place yet, but even if they could hear you praying to them ,they cannot do anything for you without the express permission from God anyway. So why talk to the monkey when you can talk to the Organ Grinder? Jesus said to His disciples, when ye pray, say thus and so... Included in the thus and so are the words "Our Father..." which clearly indicates who the object of our prayers should be. Praying to saints and Mary are traditional add ons by the church over the centuries, such practices have no foundation in scripture.

Do you ask people to pray for you? Didn't St. Pauls often ask people to pray for him? Doesn't revelation talk about angels bringing prayers before God?

And where do you think the souls of the just are located?

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you ask people to pray for you? Didn't St. Pauls often ask people to pray for him? Doesn't revelation talk about angels bringing prayers before God?

And where do you think the souls of the just are located?

Hi Noel

I believe that they are actually dead i.e. not alive, not living but will be raised to judgment one day, some to everlasting life and others to everlasting damnation. What has Paul asking people who are still alive to pray for him and whether or not people who are still alive praying for me got to do with me or anyone else praying to dead people? Yes revelation describes angels bringing the incense which has the prayers of the saints - i.e. people who when they were alive had prayed, to God. But these prayers were to God not the angels. Like a post man delivering my post to me, the post was sent to me not the postman, he just delivered it. See the difference?

kelly1

Hello to you too Forgive my poor manners.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Hi Noel

I believe that they are actually dead i.e. not alive, not living but will be raised to judgment one day, some to everlasting life and others to everlasting damnation.

But the spirit is immortal. How can it be dead?

Soul Winner wrote: »

Yes revelation describes angels bringing the incense which has the prayers of the saints - i.e. people who when they were alive had prayed, to God. But these prayers were to God not the angels. Like a post man delivering my post to me, the post was sent to me not the postman, he just delivered it. See the difference?

If Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man, why would the angels intervene?

keano_afc

kelly1 wrote: »

Catholics believe that there are already souls of the saved (but not all) in Heaven and that people souls don't rest in some waiting room until the end of time.

I ask people on earth to pray for me and that's not much different to asking the "dead" to pray for us. The Church is composed of the "Pilgrim Church" on earth and the "Church Victorious" in heaven and so we're all part of one Church. We're all brothers and sisters in Christ.

It's not like a seance where you try to make contact! Nobody expects to hear back.

So how do you know these "saints" have interceded on your behalf? Unneccessary guesswork would you not agree?? I ask people to pray for me all the time, the difference being I know they're going to pray to God for me because they tell me they will. I see no reason to ask dead bodies to do the same.

kelly1

keano_afc wrote: »

So how do you know these "saints" have interceded on your behalf? Unneccessary guesswork would you not agree?? I ask people to pray for me all the time, the difference being I know they're going to pray to God for me because they tell me they will. I see no reason to ask dead bodies to do the same.

Who said anything about praying to dead bodies? Good grief! What happens to the immortal souls of those who die before the general judgment?

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello to you too Forgive my poor manners.

No worries

kelly1 wrote: »

But the spirit is immortal. How can it be dead?

Good question. I don't know is the short answer. I can only surmise from the fact they while waiting to be raised to judgment that they are in state of un-raised-ness i.e. dead, be that just the body or not. Maybe the eternal essence of the life that was in them while they lived goes back to God at the time of death and re-infuses them at the time of the resurrection where they are judged. I simply don't know, but what seems pretty clear to me is that even if they were present with God as resurrected beings surely that is no basis for praying to them when we have Jesus at the right hand of God making intercession for us on our behalf.

kelly1 wrote: »

If Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man, why would the angels intervene?

Well he didn't really intervene, he merely carried the golden censor which was full with the prayers of the saints to the alter. Angels are messengers of God, they do God's bidding. How he came to be holding the golden censor in the first place can only be speculated at.

wolfsbane

kelly1 wrote: »

Catholics believe that there are already souls of the saved (but not all) in Heaven and that people souls don't rest in some waiting room until the end of time.

I ask people on earth to pray for me and that's not much different to asking the "dead" to pray for us. The Church is composed of the "Pilgrim Church" on earth and the "Church Victorious" in heaven and so we're all part of one Church. We're all brothers and sisters in Christ.

It's not like a seance where you try to make contact! Nobody expects to hear back.

Most Evangelical Protestants hold that all the departed believers are with Christ - conscious and happy. We are all indeed part of the one Church.

The problems with praying to the dead believers:
1. There is no Biblical warrant for doing so.
2. There is no indication they can hear our prayers.
2. They would need to be able to hear many prayers simultaneously. Just think of the number Mary or some of the more popular saints have addressed to them.

PDN

wolfsbane wrote: »

Most Evangelical Protestants hold that all the departed believers are with Christ - conscious and happy. We are all indeed part of the one Church.

Amen. I am really surprised at the number of posters on this board who appear to be believe in some kind of soul-sleep.

Soul Winner

PDN wrote: »

Amen. I am really surprised at the number of posters on this board who appear to be believe in some kind of soul-sleep.

I know it's strange alright but what other state can you describe unressurectedness? The dead in Christ rise first at the general resurrection which presupposes them being in a non raise state i.e. dead or asleep. But then we have to look at other passages like when Paul states that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Maybe it all really does happen in the twinkling of an eye and what was many years dead to those alive is only a split second to those who die. Who knows?

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

I know it's strange alright but what other state can you describe unressurectedness? The dead in Christ rise first at the general resurrection which presupposes them being in a non raise state i.e. dead or asleep. But then we have to look at other passages like when Paul states that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Maybe it all really does happen in the twinkling of an eye and what was many years dead to those alive is only a split second to those who die. Who knows?

I think it's simple. When a person dies, their soul/spirit departs from the body. The body decays and the soul remains unchanged except that it faces a new spiritual reality. I doubt if there's any biblical evidence which shows that souls "sleep" after death.

At the general judgement and resurrection, the souls of the just (and the damned) recieve new "glorious" bodies just as Christ did when He rose from the dead.

NUTLEY BOY

Thanks for that everyone. Most interesting indeed.

LordSutch

Pray to the dead?

Like chozo & chozometroid, I pray to God alone, as instucted in scripture.

prinz

kelly1 wrote: »

At the general judgement and resurrection, the souls of the just (and the damned) recieve new "glorious" bodies just as Christ did when He rose from the dead.

How was His new body and more glorious than His old body? It still had the wounds etc of crucifixion. Also seemed to be physically different at will.

kelly1

prinz wrote: »

How was His new body and more glorious than His old body? It still had the wounds etc of crucifixion. Also seemed to be physically different at will.

First His disciples didn't recognize Him until the breaking of the bread so he must have looked different because they didn't recognize Him.

Second Christ was able to walk through doors e.g. when the disciples were behind "closed doors" hiding away from the Jews and He appeared among them.

I think there are a few passages where He just appeared out of thin air.

faceman

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

A question for the RCs particularly.

Does the RC Church approve or disapprove of praying to the spirit of a deceased person ?

I am not talking about praying for the spirit of a deceased person.

depending on your prayer and reasons for it, it could be sin. Technically you should only offer worship and request divine help from God, Jesus, Mary and the Saints. There is also a passage in the bible somewhere telling people not to worshop angels.

kelly1

faceman wrote: »

depending on your prayer and reasons for it, it could be sin. Technically you should only offer worship and request divine help from God, Jesus, Mary and the Saints. There is also a passage in the bible somewhere telling people not to worshop angels.

Hello, I presume you mean that only God should be worshipped?

prinz

kelly1 wrote: »

First His disciples didn't recognize Him until the breaking of the bread so he must have looked different because they didn't recognize Him.
Second Christ was able to walk through doors e.g. when the disciples were behind "closed doors" hiding away from the Jews and He appeared among them. I think there are a few passages where He just appeared out of thin air.

I agree with all of this 100%. But I think then our understanding of the resurrected body as physical matter, is flawed. Jesus also told Mary Magdalene not to touch Him, which is IMO an interesting point. Was Jesus physically present, or not?

I have prayed to the dead via God, asking God to pass on the message. I presume He can do that.

kelly1

prinz wrote: »

I agree with all of this 100%. But I think then our understanding of the resurrected body as physical matter, is flawed. Jesus also told Mary Magdalene not to touch Him, which is IMO an interesting point. Was Jesus physically present, or not?

Yes but not physical in the sense that we understand it. Jesus ate fish for breakfast with the disciples but was also able to "teleport" at will so I suspect the resurrected body is able to change its nature and location at will.

prinz wrote: »

I have prayed to the dead via God, asking God to pass on the message. I presume He can do that.

Yes of course but maybe those in heaven can hear us by the power of God? If it were acceptable to God to allow us to ask those in heaven to pray for us, I'm sure God would facilitate this. If it's for a person's ultimate good, I think God would certainly allow/facilitate it.

Soul Winner

prinz wrote: »

Jesus also told Mary Magdalene not to touch Him, which is IMO an interesting point.

That used to bug the hell out of me. He tells Mary not to touch Him and then he lets Thomas touch Him. The reason that He gives to Mary for this is the strange phrase:

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

For years this bugge me because He let Thomas touch Him. It was only after some deeper probing that it all made sense. Between the time that He said this and actually meeting with the Disciples including Thomas He had already ascended to the father and presented Himself to Him fulfilling the Old Testament type of when the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle and presented the blood of the sacrifice to God who met with Him there as the Shekinah Glory on the Ark of the Covenant.

The High Priest had bells on the ends of his cloak and should the people outside hear the bells stop ringing then that was a sign that the priest was dead due to the sacrifice not being accepted as adequate. It was required that they slay a lamb that had no blemishes whatsoever both inside and out, and to present its blood to God. Once accepted the sins of the people were forgiven for one year. This was but a type of what Jesus had to do in the real Holy of Holies in Heaven. The inner court of the Tabernacle in the wilderness was but a type of Heaven and the outer court was type of Earth. The sacrifice was killed in the outer court (Earth) and its blood presented in the inner court (Heaven). Christ died outside of the inner court (Earth) and ascended to present His blood inside the inner court (Heaven).

But before the High Priest (another type of Christ) would bring in the blood of the sacrifice nobody was allowed to touch him because it would defile the blood of the sacrifice and cause them to have to sacrifice again. That is why Jesus told Mary not to touch Him, because He had not yet ascended to the Father to present His blood in the true inner court in Heaven. Once he did this and the sacrifice was accepted as forever adequate (not just for a year) then He was free to come and go as he pleased, and by the time He got to Thomas this had already taken place and so it was ok for Thomas to touch Him.

Needles to say when I learned all that it not only resolved the inner nagging I had about the apparent double standard Jesus employed with Mary and Thomas but it totally blew my mind.

kelly1

That's very interesting Soul Winner, thanks for that. I also heard that there was rope tied around the high priest so he could be pulled out of the sanctuary if he died so as not to defile the place by entering it.

But did Jesus really ascend to the Father before appearing to Thomas? Didn't Jesus remain on earth for 40 days?

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

I doubt if there's any biblical evidence which shows that souls "sleep" after death.

Well there is this passage:

"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, (Paul's phrase for those who have died) or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word (very important), we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede (i.e. rise before) those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words." I Thessalonians 4:13-18

These verses suggest to me that there is some sort of sleeping time before the resurrection. But like I said, to the ones sleeping (dead) it might only seem like a split second, if even that. I simply don't know.

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

But did Jesus really ascend to the Father before appearing to Thomas? Didn't Jesus remain on earth for 40 days?

Yes He did, but when He spoke to Mary He specifically tells her that He was about to ascend to the father and tells her to tell His Disciples. When He meets with them later in the same passage (presumably after this ascension) it states that Thomas was not present with them, then in verse 26 it states that it was eight days after this that that Jesus meets with Thomas and allows Thomas to touch Him. So yes it was definitely after the initial ascension I would say.

lmaopml

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

A question for the RCs particularly.

Does the RC Church approve or disapprove of praying to the spirit of a deceased person ?

I am not talking about praying for the spirit of a deceased person.

Hi Nutley,

The Catholic Church teaches us that we are all one body in unity with Jesus, and fellow Christians....The bond is forever unbroken whether we are physically dead or alive. We honour our dead, the same way as you would honour your mother and father in life, we still honour them in death too...we still have an unbroken kinship with our fellow Christians..It's different, to say, adoring them or assigning special purpose to them...We don't pray to them to be 'saved', we ask them privately to most of the time just 'watch over us...' tbh, because we believe they are alive with Christ.....the bond remains unbroken..., that doesn't mean they replace Jesus as our saviour or God or the Holy Spirit in any way. They simply remain chained to us in an unending unity through the love of Jesus.

Catholics belief that only Jesus himself has the sole role of bridging the chasm of sin that seperates us from God. No person who has passed, can take this place as mediator ( in the role of our 'savior') with God for our sins...Instead we believe that all Christians are intercessors who because of Christs mediatorship are able to pray for eachother....in fact encouraged and obliged to do so in the unity of his church.

When Catholics speak of the 'dead' we speak of souls that are diabolical in God's eye's, not of our fellow Christians who are alive and well in our family with Christ.

Slav

wolfsbane wrote: »

2. They would need to be able to hear many prayers simultaneously. Just think of the number Mary or some of the more popular saints have addressed to them.

This is a very interesting point. What about Jesus? Can he hear many prayers simultaneously?

santing

Slav wrote: »

This is a very interesting point. What about Jesus? Can he hear many prayers simultaneously?

Yes, because He is God.

lmaopml

Yeah, overall I think there is a common misconception that we pray to saints and our dead to 'grant wishes' of some sort or another, which is entirely inaccurate - as if they themselves have the power..... In fact, the teaching is that we ask them as fellow Christians, to pray with us and on our behalf to God.....the very same as we would ask any righteous person to pray for us...

homer911

The fact remains that you are still trying to communicate with the dead, in order to get them to pray on your behalf...

Can spirits of the dead pray?

lmaopml

homer911 wrote: »

The fact remains that you are still trying to communicate with the dead, in order to get them to pray on your behalf...

Can spirits of the dead pray?

We don't believe they are 'dead'! It depends on what you would mean by 'dead'? We believe that Christ conquered 'death'. We are just basically bearing witness to this simple belief...We believe that the communion of saints are there ready and willing to 'pray' with us and on our behalf.....

....like they have a 'job' to do as much...... Same as you or I would have a job to do so, even though we are wearing flesh, blood and bones at the moment....

The communion of saints, and conquering of death, and us praying with our departed saints etc is bearing witness to the fundamental belief that Christ is the ultimate savior, and that he and he alone has conquered 'death'...

I was just answering the op's question, from a Catholic perspective...and that's what I have tried to do.

Deise Tom

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

A question for the RCs particularly.

Does the RC Church approve or disapprove of praying to the spirit of a deceased person ?

I am not talking about praying for the spirit of a deceased person.

I would be for saying you pray to God and God only, but that that you can pray to others, asking them to intercede to god.

homer911

I take what you say on board, and respect your views, but from a personal perspective, I dont see a lot of difference between communing with the spirits of the dead, (asking them to pray for you), and communing with the spirits of the dead through a ouija board - the bible tells us not to get involved in such things

For one thing, it presumes they are (a) in heaven, and (b) can hear you (c) and that the saints (broadest use of the term) would actually commune with God through prayer

keano_afc

Deise Tom wrote: »

I would be for saying you pray to God and God only, but that that you can pray to others, asking them to intercede to god.

See, this is the part I dont get. Does the bible ever tell us that we need a proxy to pray to God? No, I dont believe it does. Its creating a middle man for no reason.

Here's an example, forgive its simplicity. I'm sitting at a table opposite 2 people. I want to ask the person on the left something. There's no reason why I cant ask him directly, he's sitting there with no barriers between us. Yet, for some reason, I keep asking the person on my right to ask the other person for me. Why would I do that? Do you think the guy on my left, who I can talk to no problem, would be pleased that I was ignoring him??

Deise Tom

keano_afc wrote: »

See, this is the part I dont get. Does the bible ever tell us that we need a proxy to pray to God? No, I dont believe it does. Its creating a middle man for no reason.

Here's an example, forgive its simplicity. I'm sitting at a table opposite 2 people. I want to ask the person on the left something. There's no reason why I cant ask him directly, he's sitting there with no barriers between us. Yet, for some reason, I keep asking the person on my right to ask the other person for me. Why would I do that? Do you think the guy on my left, who I can talk to no problem, would be pleased that I was ignoring him??

Good Point. I guess the whole thing is about what you believe in or do not believe in. I suppose you could argue much the same if you were at a meeting and someone says something you agree with or do not agree with and to respond, you have to direct your comment through the chair.

lmaopml

keano_afc wrote: »

See, this is the part I dont get. Does the bible ever tell us that we need a proxy to pray to God? No, I dont believe it does. Its creating a middle man for no reason.

Here's an example, forgive its simplicity. I'm sitting at a table opposite 2 people. I want to ask the person on the left something. There's no reason why I cant ask him directly, he's sitting there with no barriers between us. Yet, for some reason, I keep asking the person on my right to ask the other person for me. Why would I do that? Do you think the guy on my left, who I can talk to no problem, would be pleased that I was ignoring him??

Paul in the bible tells fellow christians to pray and interceed for one another, he also asks people to pray for him....he didn't just soley pray to Jesus, although I'm sure he did most of the time, he obviously must have thought that prayer offerings for eachother meant a great deal.......and it is seen as a good thing to do. We ask our fellow christians to pray and intercede for us as instructed, and we also go direct to Jesus too. There is no problem doing this in the Catholic Church, just so long as we are not 'adoring' them, but asking them to pray with us...or on our behalf.


Sorry, I'm not sure how to do that multi quote thing..lol...

but this is just in answer to homer911

The Catholic Church would not look on asking a person who is departed and died righteously to 'pray' for them as against biblical teaching, they do not compare this to necromancy which would be the summoning and opening of direct communicate lines to the spirits.....asking them to 'pray' for/with us is entirely different to conjuring them....

postcynical

keano_afc wrote: »

Here's an example, forgive its simplicity. I'm sitting at a table opposite 2 people. I want to ask the person on the left something. There's no reason why I cant ask him directly, he's sitting there with no barriers between us. Yet, for some reason, I keep asking the person on my right to ask the other person for me. Why would I do that? Do you think the guy on my left, who I can talk to no problem, would be pleased that I was ignoring him??

Simple is good. How about stretching it - the guy on your right is the master of ceremonies and everyone is asking him to look after their requests, which he does in his own way. If you want more wine on the table is it wrong to ask the guy on his left to ask him for the same thing that you want done?

noel farrell

at the end of the day its down to do we hold to the word of god as stated by soul winner timothty 2v5 there is only one mediator or stories passed on from one to the other i am led to two other scriptures ecclesiastes 9v5 for the dead know nothing and luke 16v26 and besides all this there is a great gulf fixed so that those who want to pass cannot if you have a bible please read all of passage. so i say let the dead rest in the lord if god was so good to send his only son to die for out of love he will answer your prayers and mine if we ask

lmaopml

With respect Noel, Catholics don't quote tiny portions of the bible and try not to put them in context of time, people and place. I will try, albeit in a 'learner' fashion to answer Ecclesiasts, and because my interest has been peeked I will have a peek at the other tomorrow or when time allowes me ...

I'd just like to quote the verse in full, and also a few before and after..

From the Douey Rheims Version:

1 All these things have I considered in my heart, that I might carefully understand them: there are just men and wise men, and their works are in the hand of God: and yet man knoweth not whether he be worthy of love, or hatred: 2 But all things are kept uncertain for the time to come, because all things equally happen to the just and to the wicked, to the good and to the evil, to the clean and to the unclean, to him that offereth victims, and to him that despiseth sacrifices. As the good is, so also is the sinner: as the perjured, so he also that sweareth truth. 3 This is a very great evil among all things that are done under the sun, that the same things happen to all men: whereby also the hearts of the children of men are filled with evil, and with contempt while they live, and afterwards they shall be brought down to hell. 4 There is no man that liveth always, or that hopeth for this: a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more, neither have they a reward any more: for the memory of them is forgotten.


6 Their love also, and their hatred, and their envy are all perished, neither have they any part in this world, and in the work that is done under the sun. 7 Go then, and eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with gladness: because thy works please God. 8 At all times let thy garments be white, and let not oil depart from thy head. 9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest, all the days of thy unsteady life, which are given to thee under the sun, all the time of thy vanity: for this is thy portion in life, and in thy labour wherewith thou labourest under the sun. 10 Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening. 11 I turned me to another thing, and I saw that under the sun, the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the learned, nor favour to the skillful: but time and chance in all. 12 Man knoweth not his own end

(Emphasis my own )

It would be helpful to note that the author of this wonderful book considers life, love and consequence from a time 'before' Jesus! Long before....It's a series of serious and brilliant questions and answers, inspired thoughts about 'this life'.....'under the sun'....It seems clear that the author is talking from his own perspective about the 'body' and this life and death of 'the body'...not the 'soul'! He is saying that 'man' cannot 'do' anything more for himself once he departs this world - If we are to take a few words 'literally' are we also to take the rest 'literally'? So we must consider it in context with the the whole of the bible, and most especially the rock of Christian faith which is the New Testament of Jesus Christ, who conquered and defeated death..

The Catholic perspective would be ( and I'm open to correction, cause I'm a learner..lol..) To give 'death' such power over our belief today is reducing and diminishing the 'core' christian belief that Christ has conquered same..

It's also true that both Moses and Elijah appeared to the Apostles along with the voice of God to confirm the fact that Christ has indeed conquered death. How do we reconcile this?

True too, that traditional Jews who worship the 'same' God, asked their departed for prayers and understood the context of the book......because they too believe they are 'one body'..

The Saints have a job to do......just like Christians who are here on this earth, and that is to 'pray' for one another....but all things are always granted by the Grace of God, and no other. It's just been 'revealed' to us by Jesus. So we're on the second more enlightened episode...

Slav

santing wrote: »

Slav wrote:

This is a very interesting point. What about Jesus? Can he hear many prayers simultaneously?

Yes, because He is God.

Thank you, that's exactly why I found it interesting. Is it acceptable in your opinion to pray to Jesus Christ as to a human? Does His human nature has some extraordinary abilities that our nature does not?

Slav

homer911 wrote: »

For one thing, it presumes they are (a) in heaven

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Hebrews 12:22-23)

Doesn't it suggest that the spirits of just are in the heavenly Jerusalem?

(b) can hear you

If we assume that the spirits of just are in the heavenly Jerusalem and that they are the part of the Church -- the Body of Christ -- doesn't the lack of communion between those on Earth and those in Heaven break the Church and the Christ's Body in two?

(c) and that the saints (broadest use of the term) would actually commune with God through prayer

"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." (Revelation 8:3-4)

Doesn't it suggest that they do commune with God through prayer?

santing

Slav wrote: »

Thank you, that's exactly why I found it interesting. Is it acceptable in your opinion to pray to Jesus Christ as to a human? Does His human nature has some extraordinary abilities that our nature does not?

Yes, the letter written to Hebrews speaks about subjects like that;

For surely it is not angels that he helps, but [God] helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore [Jesus] had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. (Heb 2:16-18, ESV)

and

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (Heb 4:14-16, ESV)

and

This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. (Heb 7:22-26, ESV)

We can especially pray to the Lord Jesus because He became human. One thing his nature had that we don't have is being free from sin. He had no sin and did no sin.

santing

Slav wrote: »

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Hebrews 12:22-23)

Doesn't it suggest that the spirits of just are in the heavenly Jerusalem?

No! You could also state that the spirits are on Mount Sion, which is mentioned first. The verse is hard to grasp, but I think it implies that we as christians have joined many other "faith" communities (bad word!) that are around God.

Slav wrote: »

If we assume that the spirits of just are in the heavenly Jerusalem and that they are the part of the Church -- the Body of Christ -- doesn't the lack of communion between those on Earth and those in Heaven break the Church and the Christ's Body in two?

A. I don't think we can assume this and B. Describe a lack of communications for those who have become eternal. C. The Church as Body of Christ in the book of Corinth are just those in Corinth...., when talking about baptism for the dead, the concept is all living saints (christians). So the concept is the same, the bread and width of the application.

Slav wrote: »

"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." (Revelation 8:3-4)

Doesn't it suggest that they do commune with God through prayer?

Yes, they do communicate with God. But what are these saints and where are they? The Bible calles living Christians Saints, so it is not unnatural to presume that the Saints here are believers living on earth. See also Revelation 13:7

Slav

santing wrote: »

Yes, the letter written to Hebrews speaks about subjects like that;
...
We can especially pray to the Lord Jesus because He became human. One thing his nature had that we don't have is being free from sin. He had no sin and did no sin.

Well, I think nobody is arguing that. The question is about some extraordinary abilities.

Slav

santing wrote: »

No! You could also state that the spirits are on Mount Sion, which is mentioned first.

Absolutely (look at Rev 14:1). I hope you are not suggesting that Paul in Heb 12:22 (or John in Rev 14:1) meant the mount Sion in the earthy Jerusalem in Palestine?

The verse is hard to grasp

I agree, it is, but only if we are working from the presumption that the saints are not in Heaven.

B. Describe a lack of communications for those who have become eternal.

Not sure what you mean. Is it any different from the communication with the eternal God?

C. The Church as Body of Christ in the book of Corinth are just those in Corinth...., when talking about baptism for the dead, the concept is all living saints (christians). So the concept is the same, the bread and width of the application.

Sorry Santing, I did not get it at all. Are you saying that in the epistile to Corinthians by Body - the Church Paul only meant the Christian community in Corinth?

Yes, they do communicate with God. But what are these saints and where are they?

This is exactly the question!

The Bible calles living Christians Saints, so it is not unnatural to presume that the Saints here are believers living on earth. See also Revelation 13:7

Absolutely. The only thing I don't understand in this logic is how saints in Heaven and saints on Earth are mutually exclusive.

"And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands" (Rev 5:11)
Who are the elders here then? Are they the saints living on Earth during the last times?

santing

Slav wrote: »

Well, I think nobody is arguing that. The question is about some extraordinary abilities.

What kind of special abilities are you looking for? Although He is a man in Heaven, He is simultaneously the one "who upholds everything by the word of His power" (some people whould say that's the unifying power scientists are looking for). So there is nothing that He cannot do...

santing

Slav wrote: »

Absolutely (look at Rev 14:1). I hope you are not suggesting that Paul in Heb 12:22 (or John in Rev 14:1) meant the mount Sion in the earthy Jerusalem in Palestine?

I think that's what they are referring to! What they have in mind of course is the Temple Mount, or the place where God had fellowship with mankind. They are looking for a spriritual meaning, but I don't think just saying "Heaven" here is what they meant.
Where do we go when we die? "Abraham side," "with the Lord," "fallen asleep" are a few places to mention... Heaven it is in our mind, but its not necessarily Biblical!

Slav wrote: »

Not sure what you mean. Is it any different from the communication with the eternal God?

No, it would be kind of the same. God is patience, often way too patience for me. The Lord Jesus said "I am coming soon," which was 2000 years ago, and it hasn't happened yet. Lack of communication is bound by our human standards of time. We do not know (and I would doubt) if the saints that are in Heaven have any notion of time, if it is the same time, slower or faster etc. In eternity there will be no 'time'

Slav wrote: »

Sorry Santing, I did not get it at all. Are you saying that in the epistile to Corinthians by Body - the Church Paul only meant the Christian community in Corinth?

Yes and No, what I am saying is that Paul used the word Body (and also Church) differently in different places. The word Body is used abstractly in the comparison to human body in 1 Cor 12, to such an extend that it si difficult to say where Paul is talking about the human body and where about Christ. But in verse 27 Paul says "You are Body of Christ and each of you members" Note the word "You" versus "We" (Paul included) Paul says that the Church in Corinth formed [the] body of Christ, not exclusively (there is no "the") but complete. But that is the whole point about talking about a Body... it is complete in every time, but it may grow. Although I did lose my baby teeths, I never lost my legs, and in cases where people lose their leg we consider that non standard. Then in verse 29 Paul talks about the functions (of the Body of Christ) and speaks of first Apostles. etc. Now we know there were no apostles in the Corinthian Church at that moment so Paul is talking here about another body, the combined number of Christians on earth. It is only in Paul's letter to the Ephesians where the body is part of the eternal councils of God and there the Body means all Christians at all times.

Slav wrote: »

.This is exactly the question!

The saints in Revelation 8 are imho still alive on earth.

Slav wrote: »

Absolutely. The only thing I don't understand in this logic is how saints in Heaven and saints on Earth are mutually exclusive.

Well, the saints don't have the gift of bilocation, so they can only be on one place at anyone time!
The Bible doesn't combine the two - as far as I know - except when talking about the eternal purposes of God, i.e. talking outside of time. The saints

Slav wrote: »

"And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands" (Rev 5:11)
Who are the elders here then? Are they the saints living on Earth during the last times?

In my opinion, we are talking here post rapture, and the 24 elders represent all the saints of the OT and the saints of the Church that now have been resurrected and taken up into heaven - with a body