The not-so-civil Civil War

Rob67

Due to the recent rants and raves against the Public Sector I decided that I have had enough of this ‘not-so-civil, civil war’ that has raged between the Private and Public Sectors.

I have worked in the Public Sector for the last 21+ years. Largely I have enjoyed it, as it gave me opportunities to live ‘a life less ordinary’, I learned a lot, I gained a lot and, sadly, I lost a lot too.

I left the Public Sector to take up work in the Private Sector. Was it a brave or stupid decision? Time will tell.

I have friends in both sectors and I’ve seen both sides and can understand the anger and vitriol that is expressed so eloquently by some and not so much by others.

I can also understand the anger expressed by those who feel betrayed by the state and the hurt they also feel when members of the general public turn on them as they have done.

What I don’t understand, though, is why is the anger directed at the Public Sector workers? When they took up work with the Public Sector, they were offered a contract, albeit an attractive one today, but they could not make changes or negotiate it, it was take it or leave it. Not all the Public Sector contracts are the same either.

I am annoyed too, though at the right people.

Who are they?

Why, the people who are in charge of this country, of course.

Bear with me on this.

The government has directed a near perfect media war against the Public Sector using the few malcontents in the Private to lead the baton charge.

Don’t get me wrong here, I fully support the idea of cutting public pay and staff where needs be but it should have been done 18 months ago, not in the way it has been conducted to date. Strangely enough, I would have gladly accepted such a cut so that I didn’t feel the need to defend myself against criticism for merely being a public servant. I also saw the need to do this so as to placate the fevered brow of those in the Private Sector ‘heckling class.’

The government has generally succeeded in alienating the Public Sector, so it now feels free to drive the boot in and make savage cuts, which will affect everyone (Public and Private) at some point over the next few years.

In the time it has taken to impose the cuts that the government wanted through the use of a protracted media campaign, the government could have dealt with the unions and staff of the Public Sector in a far more constructive way. The necessary changes i.e. pay cuts (through a benchmarking process) or reductions in staffing levels (through early retirement programs) could have been achieved without the wailing and gnashing of teeth that has been part of Irish society for the last year or so.

And then there’s the Pension Levy. The application of the Pension Levy has been mishandled and a misnomer for long enough. The term ‘levy’ by definition, means; ‘to impose and collect tax’ (Collins dictionary) therefore the ‘Pension Levy’ is not a pay-cut nor is it a method of paying more towards a pension, it is simply a tax on being a Public Servant. To be accurate, it should have been called one of two things; a Pension Supplementary Payment (really rolls off the tongue doesn’t it?) or a ‘Pay Cut’. This bastardised use of a term is inaccurate and misleading.

Unfortunately neither term would work, as the ‘levy’ is held in central funds and is not directed to the Public Sector Pension fund and because it has a tax credit it is not a pay cut. So it is a tax and that’s all it will ever be, this means that someone in the Public Sector is paying a tax that no-one else can be subjected to… unless they work in the Public Sector, of course.

Having worked in the Public Sector I have witnessed some incredible acts of stupidity, wastefulness and downright laziness. I have also witnessed the hard work, dedication and strength of will to ensure a job gets done right. The Public Sector is not perfect and to be honest it probably never will be, but those in the Public Sector who fight change because they want to maintain the status quo have to realise it must change and soon. Because if you don’t, when reality bites, it bites hard.

I have never taken anything for granted and working in the Private Sector has served to reinforce this thinking. However, those who are hoping that the government will make it ‘all better now’ by cutting pay and staff better think again. There are changes that need to come from there too. I have seen first hand, bosses cutting pay when there is no need, except to increase profits. Cuts in staff, just to get a little more bang for their proverbial buck and holding a virtual Damocles Sword over those that remain to keep them in line when work processes change without discussion or pay is cut.

There are bad practises on both sides of the Public/ Private divide.

There is one more issue I wish to address:

The most vulnerable in our society, the elderly and those who need welfare payments to survive are going to be seriously affected by the upcoming budget. If action had been taken two, even three, years ago to ensure that economic growth was controlled and even slowed down to a manageable pace to enable longevity, if rampant spending on vanity projects had been curtailed if not cancelled altogether and if the government had placed more controls on inflation and therefore more ably fend off increased wage demands from both sectors and unions, most of these cuts to those needing assistance would not be necessary in my opinion.

There are no easy answers to the current crisis created by greed and avarice (on BOTH sides) and I won’t claim to have them either. But I will say this: We, as a nation, need to stop looking after vested interests, stop looking over your neighbour’s fence and being envious what they have or gloat over what they don’t have, stop wondering who has more or less than than the other.

We, as a nation, need to grow up.

starbelgrade

I raised this point a while back in another thread, though not so eloquently. To me there is a huge sense that we have been very succesfully divided & conquered by both the ruling powers & powers that rule the media.

Soldie

I can sympathise with public sector workers who are being villainised by the media. I can't blame someone for accepting a job with good pay and benefits, whether it's in the private or public sector. I blame the government for expanding the public sector so much during the boom years. In politics, it's far easier to give something than to take it away. What does irritate me, however, is the public sector worker who continues his union membership despite disagreeing with his union's conduct. I've come across countless people who accept that the conduct of their union is selfish and childish, and condemn it, but don't consider cancelling their membership. I tell them all the same thing: cancel your membership if you. The reason the unions have so much clout is because they have so many members.

Rob67

Soldie wrote: »

I can sympathise with public sector workers who are being villainised by the media. I can't blame someone for accepting a job with good pay and benefits, whether it's in the private or public sector. I blame the government for expanding the public sector so much during the boom years. In politics, it's far easier to give something than to take it away. What does irritate me, however, is the public sector worker who continues his union membership despite disagreeing with his union's conduct. I've come across countless people who accept that the conduct of their union is selfish and childish, and condemn it, but don't consider cancelling their membership. I tell them all the same thing: cancel your membership if you. The reason the unions have so much clout is because they have so many members.

I think that people who are union members are afraid to leave in the event that they have an issue that affects them personally and not being a union member leaves them to feel that they may have no protection or representation.

Must point out, I've never been a member of a union, I only had a representative body which is largely toothless due to huge restrictions on what it can say or do.

osnola ibax

Brilliant post op and I believe it eloquently captures the mood of many public servants providing services in this country.

I believe we are all victims of a distract (from the real issues of collusion and corruption at the highest levels) and divide campaign led by the current government and now we are about to be sacrificed for the sake of the banks.

Finally, people are afraid to leave their union. They would be called scabs on the street. People need to get over the old ways of thinking of unions for this to change.

Martin 2

Rob67 wrote: »

.... Don’t get me wrong here, I fully support the idea of cutting public pay and staff where needs be but it should have been done 18 months ago, not in the way it has been conducted to date. Strangely enough, I would have gladly accepted such a cut so that I didn’t feel the need to defend myself against criticism for merely being a public servant. I also saw the need to do this so as to placate the fevered brow of those in the Private Sector ‘heckling class.’ ....

Good post but just one small point.

18 months ago was 2 months before Lisbon I so the government couldn't risk anything that might have caused a backlash amongst voters and then when Lisbon I was rejected, passing Lisbon II become even more important so very little could be done before Oct 2nd this year. You may say given the convincing final result that these changes wouldn't have affected the outcome but why take the risk.


[FONT=&quot]I agree that it would have been better to carry out or discuss the cuts earlier, in fact had the government done its job properly cuts wouldn't be necessary in the first place (neither would LT2) but that's another story.[/FONT]

Euro_Kraut

osnola ivax wrote: »

Brilliant post op and I believe it eloquently captures the mood of many public servants providing services in this country.

I believe we are all victims of a distract (from the real issues of collusion and corruption at the highest levels) and divide campaign led by the current government and now we are about to be sacrificed for the sake of the banks.

Finally, people are afraid to leave their union. They would be called scabs on the street. People need to get over the old ways of thinking of unions for this to change.

+1

There is need for widespread reforms in how Public Sector Unions are run. A new model of Union fit for the 21st Centruy is required. Right now the leadership are largely detached from their members and appear happy to be. They want a large but passive membership that does what its told. Such a concept will not succeed in this day and age. New forms of communications exists that have made the concept of hierarchy redundant.

By the way, excellent post OP. Sums up my feelings to a tee.

silverharp

OP , firstly I'd say there is no reason personalise it. Logically this is about looking at structures. After that the only 2 questions are, does what the gov spend money on perform to an objectively high standard and can we afford it. If there is a sense of injustice at the personal level I'd sum it up by saying that an architect cant put a gun to his cuntomers head because he has a right to stay in business , the collective gov. and its agencies can and it is dangerous if 40% of the economy can have its collective head in the sand in an effort to postpone reality.

FlutterinBantam

Excellent post by the OP ,very well written.

I would suggest however that the anger of the private sector is not against the PS personnel directly ,but the people (Govt) and the systems(benchmarking) which foisted such a huge public sector pay bill on the state.

This is exacerbated by a set of intransigent Unions backing the Public service,trying to defend the indefensable in the current climate.

How much "stuff" has come out into the open as a result of this crisis??

Union leaders wages
Tds expenses/wages
Public Service pension benefits vv Pvt sector and the real cost
Govt and CC travel expenses
Fás mismanagement.
HSE costs
Favourable terms of employment.

The list is endless.

Is it any wonder that there would be a backlash against a percieved and actual imbalance.

Not against the people themselves per se, but against the corrupt and blinkered system which allowed it to happen.

Euro_Kraut

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Not against the people themselves per se, but against the corrupt and blinkered system which allowed it to happen.

I agree. That is where the anger should be. Too often however on this site and in the media the venom is directed towards individuals.

People in the Public Service are often the angriest about ineffienceies and waste as they are the ones who have to live with it on a day to day basis.

I also think there is a need for people to realise that Union leadership is the representative of the workers on the ground in the same way that Fianna Fail are representatives of the Private Sector. i.e they might claim to be but they are out of touch. In reality the Union leaders are politicians working within a restrictive and outdate organisation model that suppress individuals opinions and shelters the leadership from the real feelings of their membership. They are top down organisations rather than bottom up.

Rob67

First off, thanks for the positive feedback!

silverharp wrote: »

OP , firstly I'd say there is no reason personalise it. Logically this is about looking at structures. After that the only 2 questions are, does what the gov spend money on perform to an objectively high standard and can we afford it. If there is a sense of injustice at the personal level I'd sum it up by saying that an architect cant put a gun to his cuntomers head because he has a right to stay in business , the collective gov. and its agencies can and it is dangerous if 40% of the economy can have its collective head in the sand in an effort to postpone reality.

It is an opinion piece, therefore it reflects my personal feelings. Whilst I tried to be objective it was very hard not to be emotive, especially when I see the palpable anger in both sides of the public/ private divide.

I'm sorry but the rest of your post seems disjointed so I will assume you mean the government (the architect) is holding the gun against collective nations head? If this is correct, I would agree to a point.

The sense of injustice is felt in the Public and Private Sectors, for more or less the same reasons and asking the same questions; who fell asleep at the wheel? All of us can share in the blame in that case. However, chiefly the government should be held accountable, as they allowed the economy to accelerate beyond all acceptable norms. They didn't place adequate controls on spending and tried to prolong the feel good factor so as to ensure they remained in power.

The party is over now and it's time to clean up, so everybody gets to feel the worst effects of the hangover. We are all going to feel pain.

silverharp

Rob67 wrote: »

First off, thanks for the positive feedback!



It is an opinion piece, therefore it reflects my personal feelings. Whilst I tried to be objective it was very hard not to be emotive, especially when I see the palpable anger in both sides of the public/ private divide.

I'm sorry but the rest of your post seems disjointed so I will assume you mean the government (the architect) is holding the gun against collective nations head? If this is correct, I would agree to a point.

The sense of injustice is felt in the Public and Private Sectors, for more or less the same reasons and asking the same questions; who fell asleep at the wheel? All of us can share in the blame in that case. However, chiefly the government should be held accountable, as they allowed the economy to accelerate beyond all acceptable norms. They didn't place adequate controls on spending and tried to prolong the feel good factor so as to ensure they remained in power.

The party is over now and it's time to clean up, so everybody gets to feel the worst effects of the hangover. We are all going to feel pain.

Apologies for the confusion, I picked a random profession that doesnt expect to have a right to stay in business in a downturn, for Architect read restaruant worker or anyone else that doesnt have access to a monopoly or cartel. The relationship between the public sector is different as they can pressure the gov. or resist necessary reforms. As a taxpayer I have a gun to my head as I have to pay the bill for the actions of the "privilaged groups"

Rob67

silverharp wrote: »

Apologies for the confusion, I picked a random profession that doesnt expect to have a right to stay in business in a downturn, for Architect read restaruant worker or anyone else that doesnt have access to a monopoly or cartel. The relationship between the public sector is different as they can pressure the gov. or resist necessary reforms. As a taxpayer I have a gun to my head as I have to pay the bill for the actions of the "privilaged groups"

True enough I suppose, the resistance to change though is generally spearheaded by the 'old guard' in the Public Service and aided by the unions to a certain degree, however not every Public Sector is resistant to change. The methodology applied by govt to apply change has been ham-fisted at best and under-handed at worst.

Rantan

Rob67 wrote: »

True enough I suppose, the resistance to change though is generally spearheaded by the 'old guard' in the Public Service and aided by the unions to a certain degree, however not every Public Sector is resistant to change. The methodology applied by govt to apply change has been ham-fisted at best and under-handed at worst.

I am one of the ranters you mentioned in your original post as you can see in other threads. I understand your frustration. However, what has got me so worked up recently is the fact that unions and public sector workers have decided to strike in protest to cuts. I think this was what brought about the amount of anger from the private sector/unemployed. I agree that it is the governments resonsibility for getting us into this mess in the first place, but unfortunately we are stuck with them and the mess.

One thing that really bugs me about Cowen and all polititcians though is the way they cannot actually tell us what is going to happen or deliver factual statements. Cowen made a statement recently regarding social welfare cuts in the next budget, stating "....we will have to look at social welfare spending..." WTF does this mean exactly?? I will be on the dole come the next budget, I know the dole will be cut and accept that it has to happen, but why can't they just be clear about these things and say it. We are not children.

Rob67

Rantan wrote: »

I am one of the ranters you mentioned in your original post as you can see in other threads. I understand your frustration. However, what has got me so worked up recently is the fact that unions and public sector workers have decided to strike in protest to cuts. I think this was what brought about the amount of anger from the private sector/unemployed. I agree that it is the governments resonsibility for getting us into this mess in the first place, but unfortunately we are stuck with them and the mess.

One thing that really bugs me about Cowen and all polititcians though is the way they cannot actually tell us what is going to happen or deliver factual statements. Cowen made a statement recently regarding social welfare cuts in the next budget, stating "....we will have to look at social welfare spending..." WTF does this mean exactly?? I will be on the dole come the next budget, I know the dole will be cut and accept that it has to happen, but why can't they just be clear about these things and say it. We are not children.

I really do know how you feel, I was on the dole in mid-eighties after being let go from a job, spent 6 months on it (longest days of my life) before getting lucky and joining the Army.

As I tried to point out, the govt managed to direct the majority of the anger at the Public Sector instead of accepting responsibility for its own actions. The Unions, who are doing what they're supposed to do (protecting their members) have gone a little OTT but from what I see it seems to be more brinksmanship tactics than anything else, we just have to see.

As for the workers themselves, they are on the defensive due to constant attacks by the media and by the govt through the media. So, it can be understandable as to why they are so aggressive in their stance, especially by those who genuinely work very hard.

No politician wants to be held to a particular position, especially a govt minister. A lot of what they say (in my opinion) is done so as to gauge reaction from the general public or from a certain sector so as to give them an idea as to which direction to take. Unfortunately, it is the average person who has to suffer for it.

Rantan

Rob67 wrote: »

I really do know how you feel, I was on the dole in mid-eighties after being let go from a job, spent 6 months on it (longest days of my life) before getting lucky and joining the Army.

As I tried to point out, the govt managed to direct the majority of the anger at the Public Sector instead of accepting responsibility for its own actions. The Unions, who are doing what they're supposed to do (protecting their members) have gone a little OTT but from what I see it seems to be more brinksmanship tactics than anything else, we just have to see.

As for the workers themselves, they are on the defensive due to constant attacks by the media and by the govt through the media. So, it can be understandable as to why they are so aggressive in their stance, especially by those who genuinely work very hard.

No politician wants to be held to a particular position, especially a govt minister. A lot of what they say (in my opinion) is done so as to gauge reaction from the general public or from a certain sector so as to give them an idea as to which direction to take. Unfortunately, it is the average person who has to suffer for it.

I don't agree, the media will only cover whats happening, thousands of people marching in the streets is pretty big news. The media represent society's views and if the overriding view is negative toward public sector at the moment they have to portray that view. The unions represent the public sector workers and they are not exactly short on air time these days. Most people probably never heard of Begg, O Connor or any of these guys until a month or two ago, so what does that say? their own performance recently has had as negative an impact as they can get!

Rob67

Rantan wrote: »

I don't agree, the media will only cover whats happening, thousands of people marching in the streets is pretty big news. The media represent society's views and if the overriding view is negative toward public sector at the moment they have to portray that view. The unions represent the public sector workers and they are not exactly short on air time these days. Most people probably never heard of Begg, O Connor or any of these guys until a month or two ago, so what does that say? their own performance recently has had as negative an impact as they can get!

Then we will have to agree to disagree on that point regarding the media. The media can be (and has been) used to motivate a particular point of view, pro and anti and in this case I feel it has been used very effectively. In particular, I must take you up on one point, the media is not supposed to reflect a particular view, they are supposed to report facts and be balanced in their reporting. If they wish to reflect a point of view, they must state it as so and use opinion pieces or editorials to do so. Rarely, if ever, have I seen this been done in certain quarters of the media.

It's part of politics, economics or even warfare, if you can control the information, you can control the population.

I will agree, however, that the union leaders profiles have increased over the last year. O'Connor's performance was awful on 'Frontline' and alienated an already disaffected Private Sector even further and I won't try to defend him.

The union leaders have to be seen by their memberships to be doing something to protect them and in this case they have to defend the Public Sector much to the annoyance of their Private Sector members. It is real case of 'damned if you do, damned if don't'.

Rantan

Rob67 wrote: »

Then we will have to agree to disagree on that point regarding the media.

I will agree, however, that the union leaders profiles have increased over the last year. O'Connor's performance was awful on 'Frontline' and alienated an already disaffected Private Sector even further and I won't try to defend him.

The union leaders have to be seen by their memberships to be doing something to protect them and in this case they have to defend the Public Sector much to the annoyance of their Private Sector members. It is real case of 'damned if you do, damned if don't'.

No sympathy for them I'm afraid, I'd gladly suffer a little damnation for €124k or €170k a year!!

Rob67

Rantan wrote: »

No sympathy for them I'm afraid, I'd gladly suffer a little damnation for €124k or €170k a year!!

Neither do I. I had bad experiences with PDFORRA and it's only a representative organisation!

Rantan

Rob67 wrote: »

Neither do I. I had bad experiences with PDFORRA and it's only a representative organisation!

Complain and all as I do bout unions, I am less than two years with this company so when it came to redundancy it was "no work left - 4 weeks notice now f**k off!" no redundancy payments or anything, fair enough. The unionised guys have been in a position to hold out for improved redundancy terms, which they got, while they pick of office staff like me one by one.

Rob67

Rantan wrote: »

Complain and all as I do bout unions, I am less than two years with this company so when it came to redundancy it was "no work left - 4 weeks notice now f**k off!" no redundancy payments or anything, fair enough. The unionised guys have been in a position to hold out for improved redundancy terms, which they got, while they pick of office staff like me one by one.

Have you tried fighting your case? Has the company demonstrated that there is no work for your particular position? If not, this may help: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/unemployment-and-redundancy/redundancy/redundancy

Looking at it from your perspective, I would be angry too.

irish_bob

Rob67 wrote: »

Then we will have to agree to disagree on that point regarding the media. The media can be (and has been) used to motivate a particular point of view, pro and anti and in this case I feel it has been used very effectively. In particular, I must take you up on one point, the media is not supposed to reflect a particular view, they are supposed to report facts and be balanced in their reporting. If they wish to reflect a point of view, they must state it as so and use opinion pieces or editorials to do so. Rarely, if ever, have I seen this been done in certain quarters of the media.

It's part of politics, economics or even warfare, if you can control the information, you can control the population.

I will agree, however, that the union leaders profiles have increased over the last year. O'Connor's performance was awful on 'Frontline' and alienated an already disaffected Private Sector even further and I won't try to defend him.

The union leaders have to be seen by their memberships to be doing something to protect them and in this case they have to defend the Public Sector much to the annoyance of their Private Sector members. It is real case of 'damned if you do, damned if don't'.

the facts dont in anyway present the public sectors demands as in anyway reasonable

as for the media , RTE as always has been extremley tame when it comes to scrutinising the unions , slogans and rhetoric are accepted as fact , pat kenny is the one exception , for any real indepth analysis , you have to tune into newstalk or matt cooper

Rantan

Rob67 wrote: »

Have you tried fighting your case? Has the company demonstrated that there is no work for your particular position? If not, this may help: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/unemployment-and-redundancy/redundancy/redundancy

Looking at it from your perspective, I would be angry too.

yes, straight forward case of a down turn unfortunatlely, still doesn;t stop me thinking they're a bunch of a-holes though!!

Rob67

irish_bob wrote: »

the facts dont in anyway present the public sectors demands as in anyway reasonable

Which facts? That the average Public Sector worker earns XYZ and golden pensions and so on, so on and so on..? I have already addressed this and you would probably find that a fair amount of Public Sector workers would agree with me on it, that; IF the govt had acted sooner and IF the govt had not portrayed the Public Sector as demons in the media. The required changes could have been enacted without the necessity of strike/industrial action and allowed the unions to come to the fore as it has.

If the govt had not dallied and wrung their hands on the pay and staffing numbers for the time it had there would have been no need to place a tax on Public Service personnel. Pay could have been cut long ago, more than likely after a pitched battle, I would concede, after all, there is no interest like self -interest.

As it stands, the govt has succeeded in alienating the Public Sector from the Private Sector through its media campaign. This means that the govt can put in place other strategies that will affect the wider population while everyone focuses on what size the knife is going to be slicing up the Public Sector pie.

as for the media , RTE as always has been extremley tame when it comes to scrutinising the unions , slogans and rhetoric are accepted as fact , pat kenny is the one exception , for any real indepth analysis , you have to tune into newstalk or matt cooper

... And RTE has been equally easy on the govt ministers and sympathetic to the plight of the Private Sector. As a responsible news outlet should be, although their analysis could do with some work.

So much for the bastion of accurate reporting and well researched facts and figures, as used as an information resource and presented as 'facts' by a few of the anti Public Sector rhetoric brigade in this forum, in fairness to O'Connor though, he was trying to point the numerical difference between frontline and admin staff in the PS and that the frontline staff are only a minority in the larger Public Service.

Newstalk, which I listen to, can tend to fall into the Private Sector rhetoric. As for Matt Cooper... I can't stand his voice so I have no idea what his show is like so I won't be able to comment on his show's content.

Just a sidebar on the 'accuracy' of the facts as presented by INM in yesterdays paper (Sunday) Brendan O'Connor,in his article, stated that the Defence Forces had a strength of 11,000 personnel when in fact as of June this year it had a strength of 10,081! (Well actually 10,080 if you count me!) This number is falling weekly so the Army will be fairly below strength by the end of 2010 if this trend continues and still be required to perform at the high standard it has with even less personnel and fulfil the mission.

irish_bob

Rob67 wrote: »

irish_bob wrote: »

Which facts? That the average Public Sector worker earns XYZ and golden pensions and so on, so on and so on..? I have already addressed this and you would probably find that a fair amount of Public Sector workers would agree with me on it, that; IF the govt had acted sooner and IF the govt had not portrayed the Public Sector as demons in the media. The required changes could have been enacted without the necessity of strike/industrial action and allowed the unions to come to the fore as it has.

If the govt had not dallied and wrung their hands on the pay and staffing numbers for the time it had there would have been no need to place a tax on Public Service personnel. Pay could have been cut long ago, more than likely after a pitched battle, I would concede, after all, there is no interest like self -interest.

As it stands, the govt has succeeded in alienating the Public Sector from the Private Sector through its media campaign. This means that the govt can put in place other strategies that will affect the wider population while everyone focuses on what size the knife is going to be slicing up the Public Sector pie.



... And RTE has been equally easy on the govt ministers and sympathetic to the plight of the Private Sector. As a responsible news outlet should be, although their analysis could do with some work.

So much for the bastion of accurate reporting and well researched facts and figures, as used as an information resource and presented as 'facts' by a few of the anti Public Sector rhetoric brigade in this forum, in fairness to O'Connor though, he was trying to point the numerical difference between frontline and admin staff in the PS and that the frontline staff are only a minority in the larger Public Service.

Newstalk, which I listen to, can tend to fall into the Private Sector rhetoric. As for Matt Cooper... I can't stand his voice so I have no idea what his show is like so I won't be able to comment on his show's content.

Just a sidebar on the 'accuracy' of the facts as presented by INM in yesterdays paper (Sunday) Brendan O'Connor,in his article, stated that the Defence Forces had a strength of 11,000 personnel when in fact as of June this year it had a strength of 10,081! (Well actually 10,080 if you count me!) This number is falling weekly so the Army will be fairly below strength by the end of 2010 if this trend continues and still be required to perform at the high standard it has with even less personnel and fulfil the mission.

the irish public sector average wage is just shy of 50 k per year , 30% higher than in the private sector and that was in 2007
the irish public sector is the highest paid in europe , this was made possible by a short term freak of a property boom which is now history
the irish public sector have pension benefits which those in the private sector can only dream of
250,000 private sector workers have lost their jobs in the past year and a half , 3000 non full time public sector workers have lost their jobs
public sector workers are threatening to strike if thier boom time wages are not retained in a time of rescession regardless of the cost to the tax payer

those facts are enough for me to form a pretty conclusive opinion

Rob67

irish_bob wrote: »

Rob67 wrote: »

the irish public sector average wage is just shy of 50 k per year , 30% higher than in the private sector and that was in 2007

Which has been reduced and will be reduced further come the budget.

the irish public sector is the highest paid in europe , this was made possible by a short term freak of a property boom which is now history

That's possibly true and it wasn't just the Public Sector that benefited the Private Sector fed at the same table, unfortunately the Private Sector was going to suffer worse in a downturn (as evidenced these days) but that's capitalism. Public Sector pay, which should have had a reverse gear in the event of a downturn, and staffing reforms (which are needed in certain areas) should have been included as part of the partnership agreements, which means that the govt, your govt, elected by you, dropped the ball in those negotiations.

the irish public sector have pension benefits which those in the private sector can only dream of

Those were the contracts that were offered, non-negotiable at the time of signing, as a matter of fact, I didn't even know I had such a pension until I was hip deep in mud whilst doing basic training (long story). A Public Servant cannot change those terms and cannot set up their own pension scheme. I always get the idea that the disgruntlement towards the pension entitlements is really directed towards the higher rate earners, because my pension is nothing to shout about, believe me. I will still have to work a full time job until I fully retire at 66 (or 70 if the age limit is raised). Not everyone is on the gravy train.

250,000 private sector workers have lost their jobs in the past year and a half , 3000 non full time public sector workers have lost their jobs

I won't dispute the figures except to say that a numbers are falling and will fall further in the Public Service.

public sector workers are threatening to strike if thier boom time wages are not retained in a time of rescession regardless of the cost to the tax payer

Born out of anger as a result of being hung out to dry by the govt and constantly attacked by members of the general public through forums such as this and sometimes in person while they are working... and the media of course, added to this is the ad hoc imposition of a Public Service Tax a.k.a 'The Pension Levy'. So, what do you expect them to do? Roll over and let it happen? If the position were reversed and you were a Public Servant and you had to go through what many ordinary Public Servants have had to put up with, are you telling me that you would accept it?

those facts are enough for me to form a pretty conclusive opinion

But that's all you have, an opinion. Sadly though, some people use such opinions to generalise these facts/opinions as typical of the Public Service from top to bottom with no consideration for the actual facts regarding grades, levels of responsibilities or skills bases etc.

Histrionics have replaced rational thought and many people, looking for a way to be affronted, no matter the issue, have rallied to the cause.

I know, no matter what I say, you are going to disagree with me, and that's your right to do so, but I would ask that instead of generalising and putting all Public Servants in the same pigeon-hole try and differentiate and specify who exactly your grievance is against.

Paulzx

Rob67

This thread up till now had been a reasoned discussion involving people with differing views. You have expressed opinions which many reasonable people in both public and private employment can see valid points,

Unfortunately that reasoned discussion has now ended with the arrival of Irishbob. You will soon find out he has a passionate hate of every public servant in this country. He will refuse to accept any positive comment from anyone about public servants. This thread will now descend into the same farcical level of bickering that every other similiar thread has already.
You are not allowed have opposing views to Irishbob. They are not valid no matter how reasonable.

Rob67

Paulzx wrote: »

Rob67

This thread up till now had been a reasoned discussion involving people with differing views. You have expressed opinions which many reasonable people in both public and private employment can see valid points,

Unfortunately that reasoned discussion has now ended with the arrival of Irishbob. You will soon find out he has a passionate hate of every public servant in this country. He will refuse to accept any positive comment from anyone about public servants. This thread will now descend into the same farcical level of bickering that every other similiar thread has already.
You are not allowed have opposing views to Irishbob. They are not valid no matter how reasonable.

Yep, I should have known better than to start arguing with Irishbob!

irish_bob

Paulzx wrote: »

Rob67

This thread up till now had been a reasoned discussion involving people with differing views. You have expressed opinions which many reasonable people in both public and private employment can see valid points,

Unfortunately that reasoned discussion has now ended with the arrival of Irishbob. You will soon find out he has a passionate hate of every public servant in this country. He will refuse to accept any positive comment from anyone about public servants. This thread will now descend into the same farcical level of bickering that every other similiar thread has already.
You are not allowed have opposing views to Irishbob. They are not valid no matter how reasonable.

a viscious personalized attack and a pathetically biased summary

Paulzx

irish_bob wrote: »

a viscious personalized attack and a pathetically biased summary

If you believe so report the post. It is based on reading your constantly biased attacks.

irish_bob

Paulzx wrote: »

If you believe so report the post. It is based on reading your constantly biased attacks.

im not one for reporting posts and im well aware which side moderators sit when it comes to debating the public sector

Paulzx

irish_bob wrote: »

im not one for reporting posts and im well aware which side moderators sit when it comes to debating the public sector

Well then don't accuse me of a personal attack. Personal attacks as you are well aware are not permitted.

Your comments on the Moderators i don't really understand. Its a bit cryptic for me.

bonkey

Enough of the Punch-and-Judy, lads. Thanks.

Back on topic.

Rob67

I would prefer a reasoned debate on the issues I have raised too.

Paulzx

I agree broadly with a lot of the sentiments you have expressed. For the record i am a frontline public sector worker emplyed by the Emergency Services.
I am not stupid enough to suggest there are not serious problems of wastage within the public services. Of course there is and they should have been tackled 5 years ago. The lack of backbone of our elected elite ensured nothing was done and now we have serious crisis management in operation.

My problem is that black and white statistics on paper are being used to tar 350,000 workers with the same brush. This enevitably leaves people who bust their asses day in and day out for modest pay rates embittered and angry. I don't want thanks or a pat on the back. I get paid wages to do a job to the best of my ability. It pisses me off when i'm lumped in by default with the Fas fat cats and incompetants. I am not a bloody statistic on paper.

irish_bob

Paulzx wrote: »

I agree broadly with a lot of the sentiments you have expressed. For the record i am a frontline public sector worker emplyed by the Emergency Services.
I am not stupid enough to suggest there are not serious problems of wastage within the public services. Of course there is and they should have been tackled 5 years ago. The lack of backbone of our elected elite ensured nothing was done and now we have serious crisis management in operation.

My problem is that black and white statistics on paper are being used to tar 350,000 workers with the same brush. This enevitably leaves people who bust their asses day in and day out for modest pay rates embittered and angry. I don't want thanks or a pat on the back. I get paid wages to do a job to the best of my ability. It pisses me off when i'm lumped in by default with the Fas fat cats and incompetants. I am not a bloody statistic on paper.

why not be gratefull that you are not one of the quater of a million who have lost thier job in the past eighteen months and that you are paid more than anywhere else in europe for what you do , you are no victim

Paulzx

irish_bob wrote: »

why not be gratefull that you are not one of the quater of a million who have lost thier job in the past eighteen months and that you are paid more than anywhere else in europe for what you do , you are no victim

Sorry Rob67, but i hate to say i told you so. Ah well, you made a valiant effort to try and bring a thread down a different route but the same old thread hoggers have appeared and have no interest in anything anyone else says. Their agenda is the only one.

Best of luck with the rest of the thread Rob67

Tony46

I work in the emergency services and I for one will not be made out to be a leech to society. I work extremley hard and I can sincerley say that I deserve every cent of my wages. Irish Bob, If you ever fall off your high horse and injure yourself you will realise the high level of service, dedication and professionalism you recieve at the hands of the emergency services in ireland. However due to the amount of enemies you made here, my good friends The Gardai will have a tough time figuring out who pushed you!!

Rantan

Tony46 wrote: »

I work in the emergency services and I for one will not be made out to be a leech to society. I work extremley hard and I can sincerley say that I deserve every cent of my wages. Irish Bob, If you ever fall off your high horse and injure yourself you will realise the high level of service, dedication and professionalism you recieve at the hands of the emergency services in ireland. However due to the amount of enemies you made here, my good friends The Gardai will have a tough time figuring out who pushed you!!

well if he lives in Dublin he had better wait until Monday to have that fall - 1,000 gardai and emergency workers are on the streets again today!!

For whats it worth - I agree with you that people in the emergency services deserve every penny they get, you do a tough job and do it very well I might add, from any experiences I have ever had(maybe with the exception of one or two gardai)
But I also think I deserve every penny I get too but I'll still be on the dole in two weeks and theres nothing I can do about it. I'd gladly accept a pay cut to save my job but the work is not there. I've worked in construction all my life and would like to think that my small contribution to the roads, bridges, pipelines that help your ambulaces and fire engines get around has had a positive impact on society also. Its not a question of whether you deserve it or not, its a question of it just not being there to give you.
There was a guy from the emergencxy services body on the radio (cant remember his name)this morning and his line to the governemt was "do what you you have to do but leave us alone". That is the attitude that is angering people like me.

irish_bob

Tony46 wrote: »

I work in the emergency services and I for one will not be made out to be a leech to society. I work extremley hard and I can sincerley say that I deserve every cent of my wages. Irish Bob, If you ever fall off your high horse and injure yourself you will realise the high level of service, dedication and professionalism you recieve at the hands of the emergency services in ireland. However due to the amount of enemies you made here, my good friends The Gardai will have a tough time figuring out who pushed you!!

what a thoroughly disgusting post , you not only express your disatisfaction with alternative opinions, in an internet forum of all places , you then go on to make veiled threats against those who offer such alternative viewpoints , thin skinned and agressive , nice personality combo

as for how hard you work , i seriously doubt you work any harder than your counterparts in manchester , amsterdam or berlin but i know for a fact , you earn far more

Paulzx

Rantan wrote: »

well if he lives in Dublin he had better wait until Monday to have that fall - 1,000 gardai and emergency workers are on the streets again today!!

.

Anyone marching today will be off work on rest days. Speaking for firefighters we will have people marching who worked last night or are going in tonight after the march. Nobody who is due to work today will be marching but will be doing what they are paid to do i.e provide a service to the people of Dublin City.

I have great sympathy with your situation and can understand perfectly your sentiments. I hope your prospects of getting work improve soon. You too are in this position through no fault of your own

Rantan

Paulzx wrote: »

Anyone marching today will be off work on rest days. Speaking for firefighters we will have people marching who worked last night or are going in tonight after the march. Nobody who is due to work today will be marching but will be doing what they are paid to do i.e provide a service to the people of Dublin City.

I have great sympathy with your situation and can understand perfectly your sentiments. I hope your prospects of getting work improve soon. You too are in this position through no fault of your own

I appreciate your comments, I am hopeful of employment, eventually, but anything I get from here on will probably involve a 20 or 30% paycut, I was a dept manager with 6 people reporting to me 12 months ago, when I'm gone there will be two left in teh dept. The chances of finding that type of job again are zero.
If you can be sympsthetic with my situation how would you respond if told to keep your job you will need to take a 10% cut? I suppose my point is this: understanding the situation(from your POV) is one thing but accepting it when it comes knocking on your own door is another thing.
I dont mean to be disingenuous about it, I can appreciate you feel also you have done nothing to deserve any cuts of any kind.

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

what a thoroughly disgusting post , you not only express your disatisfaction with alternative opinions, in an internet forum of all places , you then go on to make veiled threats against those who offer such alternative viewpoints , thin skinned and agressive , nice personality combo

The image of you falling off a high horse is clearly not the expression of a real wish, let alone a threat.

Who is being thin-skinned and aggressive?

Rob67

Paulzx wrote: »

Sorry Rob67, but i hate to say i told you so. Ah well, you made a valiant effort to try and bring a thread down a different route but the same old thread hoggers have appeared and have no interest in anything anyone else says. Their agenda is the only one.

Best of luck with the rest of the thread Rob67

Thanks Paulzx, it's really sad that a subject can't be discussed in a rational manner without some individuals resorting to histrionics isn't it? Between the potential for someone to fall off a hypothetical horse and the constant search to find a way to feel affronted and thereby cause emotional harm, I am considering asking a mod to close this thread to prevent such a situation arising.

However, if I do that, it will mean that those in the anti-Public Sector cause will have free reign to espouse their sometimes ill-informed rhetoric. I wouldn't be comfortable with that, history has proven that if a certain segment of society are allowed to castigate another segment without fear of contradiction, segregation is sure to follow and then society as a whole will suffer as a result.

Debate, if carried out in a fair and equitable manner, can generate positive results, if allowed by both sides.

This is what I mean when I said we need to grow up and not resort to school-yard tactics.

Rob67

irish_bob wrote: »

what a thoroughly disgusting post , you not only express your disatisfaction with alternative opinions, in an internet forum of all places , you then go on to make veiled threats against those who offer such alternative viewpoints , thin skinned and agressive , nice personality combo

as for how hard you work , i seriously doubt you work any harder than your counterparts in manchester , amsterdam or berlin but i know for a fact , you earn far more

You really need to learn not to take things personally, Irishbob.

jimmmy

Tony46 wrote: »

I work in the emergency services and I for one will not be made out to be a leech to society. I work extremley hard and I can sincerley say that I deserve every cent of my wages. Irish Bob, If you ever fall off your high horse and injure yourself you will realise the high level of service, dedication and professionalism you recieve at the hands of the emergency services in ireland. However due to the amount of enemies you made here, my good friends The Gardai will have a tough time figuring out who pushed you!!

Not a very nice post. I also " doubt you work any harder than your counterparts in manchester , amsterdam or berlin but know for a fact , you earn far more "

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Not a very nice post. I also " doubt you work any harder than your counterparts in manchester , amsterdam or berlin but know for a fact , you earn far more "

Not a very nice post.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Not a very nice post.

but true, and without wishing anyone else to fall and injure themselves.;)

irish_bob

Rob67 wrote: »

Thanks Paulzx, it's really sad that a subject can't be discussed in a rational manner without some individuals resorting to histrionics isn't it? Between the potential for someone to fall off a hypothetical horse and the constant search to find a way to feel affronted and thereby cause emotional harm, I am considering asking a mod to close this thread to prevent such a situation arising.

However, if I do that, it will mean that those in the anti-Public Sector cause will have free reign to espouse their sometimes ill-informed rhetoric. I wouldn't be comfortable with that, history has proven that if a certain segment of society are allowed to castigate another segment without fear of contradiction, segregation is sure to follow and then society as a whole will suffer as a result.

Debate, if carried out in a fair and equitable manner, can generate positive results, if allowed by both sides.

This is what I mean when I said we need to grow up and not resort to school-yard tactics.

no rhetotic here , just quoting CSO figures unless you consider those to be rhetoric , do you

irish_bob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Not a very nice post.

ill health can be wished upon me and its to be laughed off but jimmy presents basic fact and hes being cruel :rolleyes:

Rob67

irish_bob wrote: »

no rhetotic here , just quoting CSO figures unless you consider those to be rhetoric , do you

Aggressive tone, challenging terminology... I may be feeling hurt.

Quote away though!

Once you understand that averages are just that, averages, and are open to inaccuracy/deviation/speculation and misinterpretation.

A thought just came to mind; along with your cohort Jimmmy, and other similarly minded folks, are you interested in genuine debate or do you just want to browbeat someone into submission and see the world as you see it?