Srike may shut down college

brennan1979

I was reading the latest edition of the University Times from the 3rd of November and there was several articles dealing with the proposed nationwide work stoppage on the 24th of November.

On the second page there was a vox pop where students were asked "If the college was picketed, would you cross the line?"

Remarkably, the majority of students who were asked their opinions, and their comments were accompained by their names and photographs, were quite happy to say that yes they would cross a picket.

I find this incredible that the concept of scabbing a picket would attract such widespread support and out of ten opinions taken only two students were in favour of showing solidarity with TCD staff who would picket the college.

I was always of the opinion that to cross a picket, any picket, was a shameful and disgraceful action. It didn't matter that by respecting the picket you were inconveniencing yourself, that didn't come into it.

Do the majority of Trinity students think scabbing is acceptable or was this an unrepresentative sample?

Brian

Neither the college nor the students would be the ones imposing the reduction in salaries on the public sector workers ; why should they be inconvenienced for it?

Gnashing of teeth will not make up for the over-expenditure of the past. If staff have any sense they should carry on with their jobs and be glad they still have them.

dan719

brennan1979 wrote: »

I was always of the opinion that to cross a picket, any picket, was a shameful and disgraceful action. It didn't matter that by respecting the picket you were inconveniencing yourself, that didn't come into it.

See that, that's your problem right there. For what it's worth I'd cross the picket, dance on it, and then proceed to abuse the people on strike. It's a recession. Who in their right mind strikes during a recession? Nutters.

EGaffney

Students are consumers of education. It is not in their interest for lecturers to strike. It's difficult to see how students can engage in providing the labour agreed by mutual contract but withdrawn by protesting workers, or as OP calls it in socialist language, "scabbing". The sacrosanct picket is an interesting piece of socialist mythology, but we all know where it left the UK in the late 1970s. I think the OP is confused as to who plays what role in the third-level education system.

Brian

Too much Billy Elliot.

Jonathan

Let them strike away. The docked wages for those striking on that day is helping to cut expenditure.

Mark200

I don't see why you'd expect someone to respect a picket or not cross a picket if they don't agree with the strike.

brownacid

I really think that people need to learn the definition of what a scab is, a scab is someone who crosses a picket and does the job that the strikers are not doing, it does not mean that anyone who crosses a picket line is a scab. I work for a well known company who failed to renew a number of contracts when they ran out this summer. After the contracts ran out the strike started, I was called a scab abused and had my car vandalised for simply doing my job, as im not in the union I had the option of crossing the line and getting paid or not crossing the line and losing my job.

I think people need to cop the phuck on and stop striking for every little pay cut, yes we're fairly screwed at the moment and everypone is taking cuts left right and centre but thats exactly it, everyone is going through, so keep you head down and get on with whatever it is that your doing.

Lame Lantern

A 60% increase in the registration fee instead of legitimate reform to the moronic way the university applies its resources means college administrators deserve no sympathy. Furthermore, for all their socialist pretensions the administration continues to endorse or, at best, refuse to condemn the proposed commercialisation of third level education. Hypocrisy, incompetence and general prickitude.

amacachi

brownacid wrote: »

I really think that people need to learn the definition of what a scab is, a scab is someone who crosses a picket and does the job that the strikers are not doing, it does not mean that anyone who crosses a picket line is a scab. I work for a well known company who failed to renew a number of contracts when they ran out this summer. After the contracts ran out the strike started, I was called a scab abused and had my car vandalised for simply doing my job, as im not in the union I had the option of crossing the line and getting paid or not crossing the line and losing my job.

I think people need to cop the phuck on and stop striking for every little pay cut, yes we're fairly screwed at the moment and everypone is taking cuts left right and centre but thats exactly it, everyone is going through, so keep you head down and get on with whatever it is that your doing.

Disgusts me when I hear of that kind of behaviour. And I couldn't agree more with your second paragraph.

Larianne

brownacid wrote: »

I really think that people need to learn the definition of what a scab is, a scab is someone who crosses a picket and does the job that the strikers are not doing, it does not mean that anyone who crosses a picket line is a scab. I work for a well known company who failed to renew a number of contracts when they ran out this summer. After the contracts ran out the strike started, I was called a scab abused and had my car vandalised for simply doing my job, as im not in the union I had the option of crossing the line and getting paid or not crossing the line and losing my job.

I think people need to cop the phuck on and stop striking for every little pay cut, yes we're fairly screwed at the moment and everypone is taking cuts left right and centre but thats exactly it, everyone is going through, so keep you head down and get on with whatever it is that your doing.

Quick question, has anyone in the Dáil taken pay cuts? I genuinely don't know.

Jonathan

Larianne wrote: »

Quick question, has anyone in the Dáil taken pay cuts? I genuinely don't know.

Yes. They are subject to the pension levy the same as all public and civil servants.

electrogrimey

So it seems that everyone in this thread thinks that every lecturer and staff member in not just Trinity, but public servants across Ireland deserve to be docked even more pay than the 7.5% already lost this year? Both my parents are public servants, and I've definitely noticed the shortness of money since the pension levy, I've had to start working on top of college to make up for it. I think it's ridiculous that the people in this thread are so right-wing that they thing that the ordinary people of Ireland deserve to lose even more money. I personally wouldn't think of crossing a picket line like that. (and no, it wouldn't be scabbing, if substitute lecturers were to be called in, that would be scabbing)

lucernarian

Lame Lantern wrote: »

A 60% increase in the registration fee instead of legitimate reform to the moronic way the university applies its resources means college administrators deserve no sympathy. Furthermore, for all their socialist pretensions the administration continues to endorse or, at best, refuse to condemn the proposed commercialisation of third level education. Hypocrisy, incompetence and general prickitude.

Well said. I've little to add to that. In this case the trade unions do not represent socialist interests but their own interests instead. I won't stand by any picket.

Jonathan

electrogrimey wrote: »

So it seems that everyone in this thread thinks that every lecturer and staff member in not just Trinity, but public servants across Ireland deserve to be docked even more pay than the 7.5% already lost this year? Both my parents are public servants, and I've definitely noticed the shortness of money since the pension levy, I've had to start working on top of college to make up for it. I think it's ridiculous that the people in this thread are so right-wing that they thing that the ordinary people of Ireland deserve to lose even more money. I personally wouldn't think of crossing a picket line like that. (and no, it wouldn't be scabbing, if substitute lecturers were to be called in, that would be scabbing)

How do you propose we find the €22billion we are borrowing each year?

In the 12 minutes between these posts we have borrowed €502272

dan719

electrogrimey wrote: »

So it seems that everyone in this thread thinks that every lecturer and staff member in not just Trinity, but public servants across Ireland deserve to be docked even more pay than the 7.5% already lost this year? Both my parents are public servants, and I've definitely noticed the shortness of money since the pension levy, I've had to start working on top of college to make up for it. I think it's ridiculous that the people in this thread are so right-wing that they thing that the ordinary people of Ireland deserve to lose even more money. I personally wouldn't think of crossing a picket line like that. (and no, it wouldn't be scabbing, if substitute lecturers were to be called in, that would be scabbing)

http://www.esri.ie/publications/latest_publications/view/index.xml?id=2848

Yeah, yeah we do.

fonpokno

electrogrimey wrote: »

So it seems that everyone in this thread thinks that every lecturer and staff member in not just Trinity, but public servants across Ireland deserve to be docked even more pay than the 7.5% already lost this year? Both my parents are public servants, and I've definitely noticed the shortness of money since the pension levy, I've had to start working on top of college to make up for it. I think it's ridiculous that the people in this thread are so right-wing that they thing that the ordinary people of Ireland deserve to lose even more money. I personally wouldn't think of crossing a picket line like that. (and no, it wouldn't be scabbing, if substitute lecturers were to be called in, that would be scabbing)

My mam is a civil servant too and yeah money's tight but we're in a recession. These things happen, the country is shagged and going on strike isn't going to change a damn thing. You can strike all you want and it won't create any more money unfortunately.

Yes the politicians of this country are a pack w*nkers and earn FAR too much seeing as most of them are bleedin' teachers. I'm sorry but the majority of teachers I know are worse than useless and can barely run a tap let alone a country. And still going on strike won't change a damn thing.

Anyone who goes on strike during a recession needs their head examined.

Edit: and yes I'd definitely walk past the picket.

sock puppet

electrogrimey wrote: »

So it seems that everyone in this thread thinks that every lecturer and staff member in not just Trinity, but public servants across Ireland deserve to be docked even more pay than the 7.5% already lost this year? Both my parents are public servants, and I've definitely noticed the shortness of money since the pension levy, I've had to start working on top of college to make up for it. I think it's ridiculous that the people in this thread are so right-wing that they thing that the ordinary people of Ireland deserve to lose even more money. I personally wouldn't think of crossing a picket line like that. (and no, it wouldn't be scabbing, if substitute lecturers were to be called in, that would be scabbing)

They didn't lose 7.5%. They get it back (and much more) after they retire. Your parents could live a good 10-20 years after they stop working. They'd need to put away a lot more than 7.5% of their weekly wage if they were on a private pension plan. That was a levy not a cut. Also most people I know would probably cross a picket line not because they are right-wing, but because they simply don't care.

lucernarian

electrogrimey wrote: »

So it seems that everyone in this thread thinks that every lecturer and staff member in not just Trinity, but public servants across Ireland deserve to be docked even more pay than the 7.5% already lost this year? Both my parents are public servants, and I've definitely noticed the shortness of money since the pension levy, I've had to start working on top of college to make up for it. I think it's ridiculous that the people in this thread are so right-wing that they thing that the ordinary people of Ireland deserve to lose even more money. I personally wouldn't think of crossing a picket line like that. (and no, it wouldn't be scabbing, if substitute lecturers were to be called in, that would be scabbing)

The only people who deserve to lose money are those who caused the mess. But strikers shouldn't act like they represent the people of Ireland. One of my parents work in the public sector too, and yeah wage losses are a pain in the hole. But be damn glad your parents aren't working under the risk of losing their jobs. If public servants are paid less, it means less money is spent paying interest to european bondholders, less services have to be cut back and more importantly, redundancies can be avoided in the public sector. To say the country can't afford to sustain anything that it provides at current levels, isn't right wing. It's the truth.

Jonathan

sock puppet wrote: »

They didn't lose 7.5%. They get it back (and much more) after they retire. Your parents could live a good 10-20 years after they stop working. They'd need to put away a lot more than 7.5% of their weekly wage if they were on a private pension plan. That was a levy not a cut. Also most people I know would probably cross a picket line not because they are right-wing, but because they simply don't care.

Public Service Pyramid Pension Scheme. :pac:

dan719

Jonathan wrote: »

How do you propose we find the €22billion we are borrowing each year?

In the 12 minutes between these posts we have borrowed €502272

We are actually borrowing a bit more than that Jonathan. Tax take now looks likely to fall 2 billion short of the projected figure from April. So far we have raised 32 billion this year on the soveriegn debt markets. Our cost of capital is now about to increase even further, as we have had our credit rating downgraded to AA-. Before hand I believe we were paying one and half times the ROI on bonds that the germans were paying.

Also, by 2011 two of every three euros collected in income tax, will be used to pay the interest on the National Debt.

Now some facts about our public sector;

Our consultants earn three times as much as those in Finland.
We have 1.5 times as many nurses as the OECD average.
The ratio of nurses to beds in the Dublin acute hospitals is 3.1.
Our healthcare system per capita is now possibly the most expensive in the world. We pay 1.5 times what the Uk pays, yet the NHS is free at point of access.
Colm Mccarthy suggested that over 30,000 jobs could be cut without a loss in service.
The ESRI report already linked to shows that there is a 26% difference in private and public sector pay.

EGaffney

electrogrimey wrote: »

So it seems that everyone in this thread thinks that every lecturer and staff member in not just Trinity, but public servants across Ireland deserve to be docked even more pay than the 7.5% already lost this year? Both my parents are public servants, and I've definitely noticed the shortness of money since the pension levy, I've had to start working on top of college to make up for it. I think it's ridiculous that the people in this thread are so right-wing that they thing that the ordinary people of Ireland deserve to lose even more money. I personally wouldn't think of crossing a picket line like that. (and no, it wouldn't be scabbing, if substitute lecturers were to be called in, that would be scabbing)

I do feel sorry for you. I understand your position. However, reflect upon the fact that governments do not directly control the income they get from taxpayers to pay for public services. Also, many private sector workers are either in the same position or worse, given that they do not enjoy job security. Also, the wealthiest have taken a disproportionate hit already, due to the fall in the value of their assets, e.g. the bankrupt builders. Also, not everyone who works for TCD can be described as "the ordinary people of Ireland".

You Have To Earn A Living. It's a fact of life in most places, but Ireland is so full of the BS language of "entitlements" from cradle to grave that we squeal when the magic government money-wand isn't waved in our direction.

Jonathan

dan719 wrote: »

We are actually borrowing a bit more than that Jonathan. Tax take now looks likely to fall 2 billion short of the projected figure from April. So far we have raised 32 billion this year on the soveriegn debt markets. Our cost of capital is now about to increase even further, as we have had our credit rating downgraded to AA-. Before hand I believe we were paying one and half times the ROI on bonds that the germans were paying.

Also, by 2011 two of every three euros collected in income tax, will be used to pay the interest on the National Debt.

T'was a rough back of the envelope calculation to show people the figures we are dealing with.

I also didn't notice that it was 22.7billion deficit for the first 10 months of the year. It keeps changing anyway. Hard to keep up :P

Assuming a scaled version of that debt to account for the whole year, we are borrowing about €52,000 a minute. But it won't be scaling accordingly, so expect that figure to rise.

amacachi

The trouble is everyone was fine with the public sector (not just civil servants, but social welfare recipients etc etc) spending increasing in line with tax receipts rising but suddenly now they don't want a relationship between the two.
TBH it's going to take a few different groups giving us a very easy ride over the next 10 years to get out of this. If pressure is on then there'll have to be a fundamental change in the kinds of services the state provides.

BTW, I was in favour of the re-introduction of fees before anyone thinks I'm being hypcritical. :pac:

Mark200

electrogrimey wrote: »

So it seems that everyone in this thread thinks that every lecturer and staff member in not just Trinity, but public servants across Ireland deserve to be docked even more pay than the 7.5% already lost this year? Both my parents are public servants, and I've definitely noticed the shortness of money since the pension levy, I've had to start working on top of college to make up for it. I think it's ridiculous that the people in this thread are so right-wing that they thing that the ordinary people of Ireland deserve to lose even more money. I personally wouldn't think of crossing a picket line like that. (and no, it wouldn't be scabbing, if substitute lecturers were to be called in, that would be scabbing)

Both my parents are public/civil* servants too and I still think the wages need to be cut further. They still get paid on average 17% more than their private sector counterparts.



*Never knew the difference

fonpokno

I've actually given up caring whether fees are brought in or not. The registration fee is going to be so high next year that it won't make a blind bit of difference. We're all screwed anyway...

Mark200 wrote: »

Both my parents are public/civil* servants too and I still think the wages need to be cut further. They still get paid on average 17% more than their private sector counterparts.

My mam always gives a lift to one of her co-workers and they were discussing this in the car the other day when I was with them. He was saying that everyone should just take a 25% cut and struggle through for a few years rather than the pissing about that the government are doing. They also voted not to go on strike cos they think it's a ridiculous idea.

C.D.

Jonathan wrote: »

Assuming a scaled version of that debt to account for the whole year, we are borrowing about €52,000 a minute. But it won't be scaling accordingly, so expect that figure to rise.

Based on your figure, we borrow ~€17,300 a minute to foor the public service pay bill.

Whatever about placing the blame at people's feet, the situation is simply not sustainable, were we to keep at it, the country would collapse and be far, far worse off than any of the Celtic cubs (myself included), civil servants, bankers, nurses etc could imagine.

The unions are a complete joke- led by people who are as greedy and power-hungry as the bankers and politicians. Yeah a stimulus package is a great idea, but borrow €1 billion to fund it? After you take into account what we pay to borrow and the amount of time it would take us to pay it off the real cost would be far, far higher.

amacachi

fonpokno wrote: »

My mam always gives a lift to one of her co-workers and they were discussing this in the car the other day when I was with them. He was saying that everyone should just take a 25% cut and struggle through for a few years rather than the pissing about that the government are doing. They also voted not to go on strike cos they think it's a ridiculous idea.

If only everybody did think like that. Our economy does have some fundamentally good things about it and a couple of years of income cuts leading to lower prices and lowering our deficit would see us coming out at a level lower than how we went in but with a much sounder foundation for the future than the crappy political piece-meal cuts being discussed right now.

C.D. wrote: »

The unions are a complete joke- led by people who are as greedy and power-hungry as the bankers and politicians. Yeah a stimulus package is a great idea, but borrow €1 billion to fund it? After you take into account what we pay to borrow and the amount of time it would take us to pay it off the real cost would be far, far higher.

I've said it many times, most union leaders would rather be king of a Country of one than to be a faceless individual with everything at their disposal.

lucernarian

amacachi wrote: »

That doesn't fix things though. Blaming people doesn't fix anything. Cutting expenditure or raising tax receipts are the only way to get out of this mess.

I didn't specifically blame anyone. Just the people responsible for it. By definition, those are responsible for something are the ones who shoulder the blame?? I was trying to say that the "ordinary people" of Ireland shouldn't have to take all the hit for it either.

This post really isn't relevant to what I was trying to say earlier, but I do think holding people responsible is needed to act as a deterrent and to prevent complacency by those with positions of responsibility.

Don't worry, I don't subscribe to the Daily Mail school of scapegoating.:D

shay_562

electrogrimey wrote:

So it seems that everyone in this thread thinks that every lecturer and staff member in not just Trinity, but public servants across Ireland deserve to be docked even more pay than the 7.5% already lost this year? Both my parents are public servants, and I've definitely noticed the shortness of money since the pension levy, I've had to start working on top of college to make up for it. I think it's ridiculous that the people in this thread are so right-wing that they thing that the ordinary people of Ireland deserve to lose even more money. I personally wouldn't think of crossing a picket line like that. (and no, it wouldn't be scabbing, if substitute lecturers were to be called in, that would be scabbing)

That sucks for both you and your parents, but to be fair, there's plenty of us in the same situation. My dad works in the private sector and is dealing with both wage cuts and the very real possibility of the company he works for closing down. That doesn't mean that he and his co-workers strike; it means they put their heads down and work like **** to try and keep their company afloat. I just can't understand the mentality that says "Well sure, the country needs to cut money somewhere, but why does it have to come from me? Sure, can't the bankers or the developers or someone pay for it?" - the banks are broke, ****loads of developers are going out of business, and unless people sack up and accept that ****'s going to be lean for the next while, it's just going to get worse.

As for crossing the picket line, I thought the most sensible comment in whichever vox pop that was in was the person pointing out that exams don't stop because of the strike. I worked a few years back for a chain store whose workers went on strike during my time there - I joined the Union when industrial action was threatened specifically because I wouldn't cross the picket line and didn't want to lose my job over it. If, say, workers in my local Tesco were on strike I'd more than likely divert my business or cut back on grocery shopping, because if other people have a legitimate grievance with their company and are expressing it via picket, I see no reason to give them two fingers by crossing the line. But education, to my mind, is very, very different, and even if the strike were the most sensible, well-reasoned, honestly legitimate cause that there ever had been, I don't think it's fair to ask 15,000 students to disadvantage themselves to support it. My college education > your work grievances. That's not right-wing so much as it is rampantly self-interested, but the end result is the same - no way in hell am I staying out of the library for a day for someone else's work issues.

ronivek

I second the sentiments expressed by Shay.

My father is self employed and he has been hit extremely hard by the recession. He worked his ass off for years and years; working twice the hours most public servants would ever be expected to work; only to see his business go down the toilet in the space of 18 months. His pension, his few savings and investments, all have taken a huge hit as a result. Needless to say I have very little sympathy for people who still have their jobs and are facing a relatively small pay cut. Whilst anecdotal and not necessarily representative of all self employed people; I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case all around the country.

At the end of the day we're not going to be marked more leniently because we didn't cross a picket line. My education is not something I'm going to throw away because of some sort of commonly held expectation that people shouldn't cross picket lines.

This is coming from someone who was involved in a strike for the best part of two weeks by the way; and I can honestly say I held no animosity towards those co-workers or members of the public or otherwise who did cross the picket line. If anything I spent most of my time questioning why I was there amongst a surprisingly selfish and narrow-minded group of people. People who spent all their time lambasting those who were just trying to knuckle down and get on with things. People who for the most part didn't actually need more money; they were merely riding the wave made by the Celtic Tiger and chancing their arms for a bit more money.

Anyway; procrastination over; moar work.

electrogrimey

fonpokno wrote: »

Yes the politicians of this country are a pack w*nkers and earn FAR too much seeing as most of them are bleedin' teachers.

Hence why Impact have called this nationwide strike, in order to demonstrate the public dissatisfaction with the government, in particular with the regard to pay-cuts.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

TBut strikers shouldn't act like they represent the people of Ireland.

Why not? That's the point of a nationwide strike.

phlegms

I'd cross the picket line purely for the lulz rather than any political affiliation.

amacachi

electrogrimey wrote: »

Hence why Impact have called this nationwide strike, in order to demonstrate the public dissatisfaction with the government, in particular with the regard to pay-cuts.

The trouble most people have with that is that the unions seem to be claiming that a cut in pay is the same as a cut in services, which it shouldn't be unless the workers use it as that.

tolosenc

brennan1979 wrote: »

Remarkably, the majority of students who were asked their opinions, and their comments were accompained by their names and photographs, were quite happy to say that yes they would cross a picket.

Remarkably? How? It's no secret that TCD is hardly a socialist haven. I'd happily cross the line were I in Trinity this year, because there is no way in hell I'm going to listen to what a trade union has to say. They're a bunch of morons who have no idea of economics.

out of ten opinions taken only two students were in favour of showing solidarity with TCD staff who would picket the college.

I'm surprised it was as many as 2.

I was always of the opinion that to cross a picket, any picket, was a shameful and disgraceful action. It didn't matter that by respecting the picket you were inconveniencing yourself, that didn't come into it.?

What gave you that impression. We don't live in a socialist state, therefore people have freedom of choice. If people choose to reject mindless idiocy, good for them. Notice how people without tenure/public sector job security react to this compared to people who do have it. Work hard to try and save my job until the worst is over vs. Going off in a huff because they feel hard done by.

Props to the comment above wherein it was stated that people would cross the picket out of apathy. I'd cross it because I am right-wing and I fundemantally disagree with the existance of trade unions (they seek to monopolise the supply of one of the 4 factors of production. Monopolising of any of the others is a crime, so why not this? Different thread...) and because I'm apathetic, if not downright annoyed by their "plight".

I'm on Erasmus in one of the most left-wing universities in France (Toulouse - Mirail), where we get subjected to this kind of crap all of the time. It's bizzare. No doubt they'll be up in arms if they find out I don't support a national strike in Ireland...

electrogrimey

sock puppet wrote: »

They didn't lose 7.5%. They get it back (and much more) after they retire.

No they don't they aren't paying more into their pension in order to get more back, they're just being taxed more on their pension and are receiving the same amount back. It's just an underhanded way of increasing tax so that nobody realizes what they're doing.

ronivek wrote: »

My education is not something I'm going to throw away because of some sort of commonly held expectation that people shouldn't cross picket lines.

Taking books out of the library for a day and studying at home is hardly throwing away your education.

I obviously understand that the country in in huge debt, and needs to cut expenditure to find money somewhere, but my main problem is that in the last budget they found something like 70% of the money they needed by cutting public sector pay. That isn't remotely fair in my eyes, considering the amount of areas in which they could have cut expenditure and increased efficiency. And now they're looking to cut it even more.

dan719

electrogrimey wrote: »

I obviously understand that the country in in huge debt, and needs to cut expenditure to find money somewhere, but my main problem is that in the last budget they found something like 70% of the money they needed by cutting public sector pay. That isn't remotely fair in my eyes, considering the amount of areas in which they could have cut expenditure and increased efficiency. And now they're looking to cut it even more.

So where should we cut our expenditure? Genuine question.

electrogrimey

dan719 wrote: »

So where should we cut our expenditure? Genuine question.

I would like to see a fair decrease of expenditure across all sectors of current expenditure, with very small decreases in capital expenditure. The efficiency of the health industry could definitely be improved, i.e. a complete reform of the structure of healthcare in Ireland, which would cut costs massively, then to dissolve may of the countless pointless bureaucratic institutions onto which the Government outsource their work, which would also save a lot, I would also propose forcefully dealing with all the tax evaders and claiming the tax back, and to stop pouring money into the banks and developers who have caused these problems, and to let them deal with their own mess, and not to absorb all of the toxic debt on their behalf.

These are just a few rough suggestions, which aren't completely fully researched.

dan719

electrogrimey wrote: »

I would like to see a fair decrease of expenditure across all sectors of current expenditure, with very small decreases in capital expenditure. The efficiency of the health industry could definitely be improved, i.e. a complete reform of the structure of healthcare in Ireland, which would cut costs massively, then to dissolve may of the countless pointless bureaucratic institutions onto which the Government outsource their work, which would also save a lot, I would also propose forcefully dealing with all the tax evaders and claiming the tax back, and to stop pouring money into the banks and developers who have caused these problems, and to let them deal with their own mess, and not to absorb all of the toxic debt on their behalf.

These are just a few rough suggestions, which aren't completely fully researched.

Are you a spokesperson for impact?

Here's my response anyway...

What's fair?

Easiest way to cut costs of healthcare? Cuts to wages and staff. Also, it's time to stop letting nurses and doctors tug on the heartstrings of taxpayers. As Sean Barrett said ( a lot) 'Lecturers go on strike, no one cares, sure lecturers do nothing, nurses go on strike, they immediately gain sympathy'.
How much work can nurses be doing when there is (on a three shift system) at least one nurse per bed?

What institutions? Have you any figures to show which do and do not add value? You do realise of course that by dissolving these, we would be firing public sector workers?

What tax evaders? Do you understand the difference between avoidance and evasion? I am sure the government is aggressively persuing all those who underpay tax illegally.

What developers have we bailed out? You do realise that by allowing the banking sector to collapse now, we would be liable for 450 billion due to the guarentee? I am not a fan of NAMA, but we have to do something. That is the unfortunate reality.

snappieT

electrogrimey wrote: »

I would like to see a fair decrease of expenditure across all sectors of current expenditure, with very small decreases in capital expenditure. The efficiency of the health industry could definitely be improved, i.e. a complete reform of the structure of healthcare in Ireland, which would cut costs massively, then to dissolve may of the countless pointless bureaucratic institutions onto which the Government outsource their work, which would also save a lot, I would also propose forcefully dealing with all the tax evaders and claiming the tax back, and to stop pouring money into the banks and developers who have caused these problems, and to let them deal with their own mess, and not to absorb all of the toxic debt on their behalf.

These are just a few rough suggestions, which aren't completely fully researched.

But you understand that improving efficiency will lead to redundancy? You can only decrease spending by (a) cutting pay, or (b) cutting staff.

(I'm strongly in favour of option (b), the HSE is absolutely shocking)

EGaffney

electrogrimey wrote: »

I would like to see a fair decrease of expenditure across all sectors of current expenditure, with very small decreases in capital expenditure. The efficiency of the health industry could definitely be improved, i.e. a complete reform of the structure of healthcare in Ireland, which would cut costs massively, then to dissolve may of the countless pointless bureaucratic institutions onto which the Government outsource their work, which would also save a lot, I would also propose forcefully dealing with all the tax evaders and claiming the tax back, and to stop pouring money into the banks and developers who have caused these problems, and to let them deal with their own mess, and not to absorb all of the toxic debt on their behalf.

These are just a few rough suggestions, which aren't completely fully researched.

Unfortunately, many of these are subject to the Fallacy of the Faceless Bureaucrat: Ronan Lyons
The majority of money is, in fact, not spent on "countless pointless bureaucratic institutions". That is what some people believe in order to justify, within their own heads, that they can continue to receive free government money at no cost to anyone deserving - the implication of this cognitive bias being, of course, that "bureaucrats" are not deserving whereas "frontline" workers are. Because, of course, no bureaucrat has ever made a positive contribution/public services would be better if there were no administrators/bureaucrats aren't salt of the earth like us.

The majority of government money is spent on:
1. paying for social welfare "entitlements" to people who don't work
2. paying for health "entitlements" to people who are ill
3. paying for education "entitlements" to students up to the end of third-level and even many postgraduates.

But in Ireland, these "entitlements" are considered sacrosanct, and most people have convinced themselves that there is a Stalinesque shadow state which steals all their tax money.

electrogrimey

EGaffney wrote: »

Unfortunately, many of these are subject to the Fallacy of the Faceless Bureaucrat: Ronan Lyons
The majority of money is, in fact, not spent on "countless pointless bureaucratic institutions". That is what some people believe in order to justify, within their own heads, that they can continue to receive free government money at no cost to anyone deserving - the implication of this cognitive bias being, of course, that "bureaucrats" are not deserving whereas "frontline" workers are. Because, of course, no bureaucrat has ever made a positive contribution/public services would be better if there were no administrators/bureaucrats aren't salt of the earth like us.

Trying to find it, but I'm not bothered trawling through the RTE archives, but there was a Prime Time report on last year about the exact thing I'm talking about, which had figures about how much money the government is throwing at these outsourcing agencies, which don't need to exist in the first place.

amacachi

snappieT wrote: »

But you understand that improving efficiency will lead to redundancy? You can only decrease spending by (a) cutting pay, or (b) cutting staff.

(I'm strongly in favour of option (b), the HSE is absolutely shocking)

At least I'm not the only one who realises this. Impact going on about cutting cost by "increasing efficiencies". Even if everyone gets their work done quicker they still have to be paid for the hours they're their.

Also the whole thing about rebuilding the HSE, people do realise that those losing their jobs are public servants and most likely union members, it's not like the unions will let their numbers be slashed.

Fad

I would happily cross the picket line. My dad spent the best part of a year unemployed, which, as you can guess, was a lovely situation to be in. Everything's fine now but I have limited sympathy for those who are employed and are going to waste time striking.

Karlusss

For what it's worth, I wouldn't cross the picket.

It's surprising to see that people are saying "I was hit by the recession in my family circumstances, everyone else should be too". That's not the way it works when times are good, so it's not the way it works when times are bad. Everyone's acting out of self-interest but I won't disrespect the staff's decision.

Becky_Boo

You'd wonder why the uninos decided to strike today, of all the working days it's a Friday...hardly any TD's actually go to the Dail on a Friday, most of them f*ck off home for the weekend. So basically they're protesting in front of an empty Dail Eireann...way to get your message across.

EGaffney

electrogrimey wrote: »

Trying to find it, but I'm not bothered trawling through the RTE archives, but there was a Prime Time report on last year about the exact thing I'm talking about, which had figures about how much money the government is throwing at these outsourcing agencies, which don't need to exist in the first place.

You understand that this money will be a fraction of the total government budget. Even if it sounds big, like a few million, it isn't big in the context of our outgoings, i.e. €22-25 billion per annum. Another cognitive bias: most people think of "millions" and "billions" as "big numbers" and stop there.

Here, the argument is:
- The government wastes a large amount of money on X
- The government needs to save a large amount of money to avoid massive national debt
- Therefore, we can simply cut the waste on X to avoid massive national debt.

The logical error is clear - the second large amount of money is perhaps 2000 times larger than the first large amount of money. But nevertheless it is a useful cognitive defence mechanism, because it allows us to reassure ourselves that any reduction in our position after cutbacks is unjustified, rather than a consequence of objective economic conditions, so we have someone to blame.

Thirdfox

Indeed - I heard a lady being interviewed by Newstalk talking about the expenses of government jets - while they may be costing us (a few?) million? that is a drop in the ocean compared to the 26 billion euro we're overspending by.

On RTE radio last night - they announced that tax intake has dropped to 2003 levels. Which brings up an interesting question - I remember 2003...it was pretty good actually - has our fiscal spending increased so much in 6 years that we can't live the good life of 2003 again?

And don't get me started on how TCDSU was "representing" my interest in campaigning against fees. Did they ever ask ordinary students how they felt or have a referendum on the issue before campaigning? Instead - our ICT dream and innovation led economy remains on the drawing board. And by the way - I come from a family situation whereby we'll be paying full whack if fees had come in, but it's what is necessary for the future growth of our economy. Instead, everyone pays more registration fees next year...

So so disappointed by the green party.

sock puppet

electrogrimey wrote: »

No they don't they aren't paying more into their pension in order to get more back, they're just being taxed more on their pension and are receiving the same amount back. It's just an underhanded way of increasing tax so that nobody realizes what they're doing.



Taking books out of the library for a day and studying at home is hardly throwing away your education.

I obviously understand that the country in in huge debt, and needs to cut expenditure to find money somewhere, but my main problem is that in the last budget they found something like 70% of the money they needed by cutting public sector pay. That isn't remotely fair in my eyes, considering the amount of areas in which they could have cut expenditure and increased efficiency. And now they're looking to cut it even more.

I never said they'd get more money. Once public servant retire, they recieve a more than generous pension. The levy goes some way towards them paying for that. You also said the public service should become more efficient. That's exactly what The ICTU oppose.

Steve Higginson

Thirdfox wrote: »

And don't get me started on how TCDSU was "representing" my interest in campaigning against fees. Did they ever ask ordinary students how they felt or have a referendum on the issue before campaigning?

A motion was passed at SU Council last year mandating that "All officers shall oppose the reintroduction of fees under any guise." This has been SU policy for years and has been passed again and again at least every second year (policy passed at council only lasts two years).

brownacid

I don;t know why the public service workers are bitching so much, they can't get fired, they work flexi time and they are bitching about losing their state pension? My mother lost her job last year, my father now is the sole earner, 2 children in college, one studying a phd and one in oz, at the start of the year he took a 23% pay cut, he now earns little over 25000 a year, he is gone for work from 6 in the mornin evry morning and home no earlier than 9 every night. Now THAT is not fair but he has never been out on strike, as the unions are really only out to save there own jobs. They are blood sucking leeches.

Those people who are bitching about having to take on a job, Iv had to do that from first year, the first couple of weeks this year i had to skip in order to make enough money so that I could afford to register, my bank balance hasn't bee in the positive since summer 08 and I have a bank loan of 5 grand to pay back every month. If your arsed enough you will be able to make it work, I finshed first and second year with 2.1s.