Would you prefer prisions to deter people or stop them re-offending?

Kipperhell

People often give about prison sentences but what do people really want?

Would you prefer prison to punish people regardless of how it actually effects re-offending?

Or would you prefer people to come out without the desire to commit further crime?

In the real world it obviously won't be black and white results so probably best to assume a reduced rate of recidivism is significant?

liah

Rehabilitation rarely, rarely works. People are crafty and can easily manipulate the people around them into thinking they're fixed when they're really not.

My super-simplistic answer? Keep them locked up so they can't reoffend if the crime is serious (eg. a murder, sober assault, etc). Keep in mind I'm not talking about petty stuff like "statutory rape" when the girl is 1 year underage and the boy just of age and they're both in love, or someone who gets busted for a gram of grass in their pocket.

minidazzler

I think we should treat them all to nice proper 3 meals a day.

Give them clean comfortable Cells.

TV's for those influential enough.

Internet access would be nice.

A state of the Art Gym and Swimming pool would be nice too.

You need to positively reinforce these people, they have been down trodden so long this is the only way it will work.

maddogcollins

I think they should be kept locked up if its serious. That in itself is a deterrent!

People are easily manipulated and its easy to maipulate - so saying im ok now and wont re-offend is not enough.

Petty stuff like Liah said, small doses of drugs, petty theft should carry a 3 or a 5 strike rule. depending on how serious.

Overall, it should be a deterrent!!!

Blazer

All depends...

Someone not paying their bills - 1 week - 1 year
Drunken driving resulting in death of a person- 15 years
Robberies- Medium term 3-10 years
Armed Robbery- Long Term stay (20 years)
Manslaughter- Long Term (30 years)
Murder/ Pedophilia - Bullet to the head. Barring that ..LIFE..not a poxy 15 years with 7 years off for good behaviour

Biggins

It would be easier to define what I know I don't want:

I don't want them going to the equivelent of holiday camps!
I don't want them having an easy time laying about within prison - put them ALL to work, 8am to 5pm!
...and more.

After that...
No mobiles, no large screen TVs and suchlike, Constant drug tests - for every time they are caught "using" another month is added to their sentence!
They have to earn their remission by extra activities/work after evening meal times - not just automatically awarded it for staying quiet and peaceful!

I could go on....

Menengroth™

they should go around to schools and hand out these t-shirts for free.

Latchy

What value do we put on human life when somebody who is convicted of a
horrendous murder gets a life sentance then has it commuted to spend a much lesser period in prison ? .If you commit the crime, you do the time

Some prisons are more like holiday camps anyway so what deterent is that going to be for a criminal knowing if caught he will live in relative comfort ? .

Pygmalion

Kipperhell wrote: »

Would you prefer prison to punish people regardless of how it actually effects re-offending?

Or would you prefer people to come out without the desire to commit further crime?

Most loaded question I've ever seen.

Biggins

Latchy wrote: »

Some prisons are more like holiday camps anyway so what deterrent is that going to be for a criminal knowing if caught he will live in relative comfort?

True. Years ago you feared more of going to prison. Now its considered an inconvenience and/or just a part price of what you pay to do what you do illegally.
"Ok so I have to go to prison, damn! But hey! I get to rest for a while and not stress meself about paying bills, medical care, taking care of the family etc!"

Madness!

phasers

I think a cashback scheme would be good.

Take for example prisoners on a 14 week sentence. Costs about 2 grand a week to keep them in. So rather than spend 28 grand to keep them inside, give them 25 grand and say here you are, use that for a positive reason.

I_am_Jebus

They should be made work for the state when in prison.
The country could save plenty of money on infrastructural projects by supplying free manual labour for various schemes. God knows we need to make savings.

No luxury items in prison, end of. No tvs, no access to mobile phones. The way it is at the moment, you basically live a semi-restricted day for x number of years or months. That's hardly punishment or paying for your crime.

Wow, 15yrs for murder: go to prison - what's the worst that will happen:

Have to get up at particular time every day (yeah I do that going to work)

Have to have breakfast at a particular time (yeah have to do that too)

Do "exercise" at a particular time (would probably be good for me if I was made do more of this

Have lunch at a particular time (yep, pretty much doing that, when I even get a chance for lunch)

Have dinner at a certain time (yeah pretty much do that too)

go to bed at a certain time (well, I do be wrecked most nights and go to bed at a certain time).

So really how far does their punishment go? practically no where. as well as the above they can enjoy the following:

No work, no commute to or from work, no bills, no worries about were dinner is going to come from etc.. etc..

Current system

---

JOKE!
Shawshank redemption style is the way to go (well except for holding innocents of course )

stovelid

Have never been to prison and only know about four people who have been, so I'd be a bit wary of expounding on the penal system in the presence of most of the experts here.

Raze_them_all

minidazzler wrote: »

I think we should treat them all to nice proper 3 meals a day.

Give them clean comfortable Cells.

TV's for those influential enough.

Internet access would be nice.

A state of the Art Gym and Swimming pool would be nice too.

You need to positively reinforce these people, they have been down trodden so long this is the only way it will work.

I hope you realise they have this, they also have playstations and their own kettles wich is stupid, A PO had boiling water thrown over him last year by a prisoner.

buckieburd

A bit of both really. But in fairness most people in prison are from very deprived areas, so prison should help them to gain skills for employment to get out of the criminal cycle, and address any issues they have that causes them to commit crime.

Saying that though, for sex offenders/pre-mediated murders there should be no release......EVER!

Mr. Presentable

stovelid wrote: »

Have never been to prison and only know about four people who have been, so I'd be a bit wary of expounding on the penal system in the presence of most of the experts here.

Only?

I wouldn't want to be hanging about with your crowd. :D

Re OP. I want a system that acts as a deterrent, not as an inconvenience. So, I should be so afraid of ending up there that I'll behave (or be verrry clever).

Once there you should be tattooed (not ACAB) on the forehead to warn the public what you are capable of. Imagine, if you will, the deterrent effects of having "nonce" written on your face. You'd never chance it.

DublinDes

Berkut wrote: »

All depends...

Someone not paying their bills - 1 week - 1 year
Drunken driving resulting in death of a person- 15 years
Robberies- Medium term 3-10 years
Armed Robbery- Long Term stay (20 years)
Manslaughter- Long Term (30 years)
Murder/ Pedophilia - Bullet to the head. Barring that ..LIFE..not a poxy 15 years with 7 years off for good behaviour

And what the bankers and politicians who allowed them to bankrupt the country to the tune of 54 Billion ? The millions squandered by FAS etc ?

minidazzler

Raze_them_all wrote: »

I hope you realise they have this, they also have playstations and their own kettles wich is stupid, A PO had boiling water thrown over him last year by a prisoner.

I'm well aware of that. Exactly why I said it. I am actually totally against this sort of thing.

I've heard of even worse than that happening to Warders, My Da is one.

Dudess

I_am_Jebus wrote: »

They should be made work for the state when in prison.
The country could save plenty of money on infrastructural projects by supplying free manual labour for various schemes. God knows we need to make savings.

No luxury items in prison, end of. No tvs, no access to mobile phones. The way it is at the moment, you basically live a semi-restricted day for x number of years or months. That's hardly punishment or paying for your crime.

Wow, 15yrs for murder: go to prison - what's the worst that will happen:

Have to get up at particular time every day (yeah I do that going to work)

Have to have breakfast at a particular time (yeah have to do that too)

Do "exercise" at a particular time (would probably be good for me if I was made do more of this

Have lunch at a particular time (yep, pretty much doing that, when I even get a chance for lunch)

Have dinner at a certain time (yeah pretty much do that too)

go to bed at a certain time (well, I do be wrecked most nights and go to bed at a certain time).

So really how far does their punishment go? practically no where. as well as the above they can enjoy the following:

No work, no commute to or from work, no bills, no worries about were dinner is going to come from etc.. etc..

Current system

---

JOKE!

Seems like you'd really like to be in there - why don't you do something about it?

Shawshank redemption style is the way to go

I don't know... There were the beatings to within an inch of one's life and the ritual ass-rapings to which the authorities turned a blind eye... but once Dufresne got in with the guards, the place became awfully like a holiday camp - a library and all...

I think this should be the aim: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079871/

az2wp0sye65487

Kipperhell wrote: »

Would you prefer prison to punish people regardless of how it actually effects re-offending?

Or would you prefer people to come out without the desire to commit further crime?

Couldn't we have both? Punish the offenders, make the punishment so harsh that they'd never dream of doing it again...

stovelid

The idea of prison being a deterrent isn't really true. It mostly frightens the people who are statistically unlikely to end up there.

I personally see it mainly as a means to keeping dangerous recidivists away from the public.

I think rehabilitation (or training and help) should always the primary aim for the large middle and lower tier of prisoners - the junkies, robbers and what not.

As for the luxury thing: even though I like the idea of certain criminals (child killers etc) doing hard time, deep down I don't really care about the Daily Mail hand-wringing if they have comfortable bed and PS3. For me, the purpose of their incarceration is not to extract revenge, but to benefit society by keeping them out of circulation.

Holsten

Neither work, prisons should punish people, and punish them severely.

5starpool

Shouldn't let any murdering, drug, dealing, child abusing, wife beating, GBH committing bastards out at all imo.

Non violent crimes are very bad and all, but the quality of life ones that are comiited by disturbed and scummy people should have the key thrown away in a lot of cases.

Raze_them_all

minidazzler wrote: »

I'm well aware of that. Exactly why I said it. I am actually totally against this sort of thing.

I've heard of even worse than that happening to Warders, My Da is one.

Thank christ I couldn tell if you were serious or not.

Your da is one??? The overpaid git*





*So's my da

Dudess

Do prisoners really get games consoles, plasma-screen TVs, access to state-of-the-art gyms etc? I'm thinking they don't...

maddogcollins

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Inmate-Attacks-Prison-Guard-Douglas-Burden-Chokes-Kenneth-Moon-At-Orient-Road-Jail-Tampa-Florida/Article/200911115439605?lpos=World_News_News_Your_Way_Region_8&lid=NewsYourWay_ARTICLE_15439605_Inmate_Attacks_Prison_Guard%3A_Douglas_Burden_Chokes_Kenneth_Moon_At_Orient_Road_Jail%2C_Tampa%2C_Florida

Thought Id throw this in the mix. I know I said above that people should be locked away, but this just goes to show how some people can change.. Or does it?

Raze_them_all

Yes actually they do in portlaois anyway, Also 2 or 3 movies a week which the state gets from dublin and are expensive cos they are for public showing

Dudess

Do they definitely? Or is that just something people say on the Joe Duffy show about certain "kingpins"?

Raze_them_all

Dudess wrote: »

Do they definitely? Or is that just something people say on the Joe Duffy show about certain "kingpins"?

They definately do.

Guy:Incognito

phasers wrote: »

I think a cashback scheme would be good.

Take for example prisoners on a 14 week sentence. Costs about 2 grand a week to keep them in. So rather than spend 28 grand to keep them inside, give them 25 grand and say here you are, use that for a positive reason.

Or stop making it so it costs 2k a week to keep them. A box with a hole in the floor doesnt cost 2k a week to run.

Guy:Incognito

Dudess wrote: »

Do they definitely? Or is that just something people say on the Joe Duffy show about certain "kingpins"?

I've seen the plans for the new prison supposedly being built.The gym is better than you will find in any fee paying gym in the country.

Biggins

maddogcollins wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Inmate-Attacks-Prison-Guard-Douglas-Burden-Chokes-Kenneth-Moon-At-Orient-Road-Jail-Tampa-Florida/Article/200911115439605?lpos=World_News_News_Your_Way_Region_8&lid=NewsYourWay_ARTICLE_15439605_Inmate_Attacks_Prison_Guard%3A_Douglas_Burden_Chokes_Kenneth_Moon_At_Orient_Road_Jail%2C_Tampa%2C_Florida

Thought Id throw this in the mix. I know I said above that people should be locked away, but this just goes to show how some people can change.. Or does it?

Heard about that.
You have to wonder if the "good" prisoners were doing the right thing just to save the guards life and/or also ensuring that a backlash from those guarding them would not be forthcoming afterwards in some form.

Hellm0

I say all people who break the law, any law, should be flogged, beaten, stabbed, shot and their loved ones put to the same, with their bodies put on public display for all to see.

Honestly, its the only way to improve this HORRIBLE society we live in.

DonkeyStyle \o/

I wonder, how many innocent victims does it take to rehabilitate one criminal?
I'm all for second chances, putting people on the right path and giving them the help they need, life is fúcked up and the system fails a lot of people, but that has to be balanced with protecting the public from people who aren't willing to change... and if they only way to do that is to keep someone off the streets for longer and longer each time, then so be it.

segaBOY

phasers wrote: »

I think a cashback scheme would be good.

Take for example prisoners on a 14 week sentence. Costs about 2 grand a week to keep them in. So rather than spend 28 grand to keep them inside, give them 25 grand and say here you are, use that for a positive reason.

25k for committing a crime? Where do I sign up?

Biggins

Speaking of crime, an interesting story:

"A couple shamed a yob by writing his name in the shop window he smashed (and caused £3,000 damage) only to be told to remove it by police - in case it harmed his civil liberties!"
Here: http://tinyurl.com/ycyqsjt

RMD

We seriously need a rehabilitation system in Ireland rather than a deterent. Many prisioners are being released weekly without any gains from prision other than further knowledge on how to commit various crimes. If they left with a qualification or further education that gave them the chance of a job there might a hope of them not re-offending.

In the words of Martin Cahill "The borstols were my primary, Pats was my seconday and the Joy was university". The only thing most prisions are doing know is providing further education in crime to repeating criminals.

Raze_them_all

RMD wrote: »

We seriously need a rehabilitation system in Ireland rather than a deterent. Many prisioners are being released weekly without any gains from prision other than further knowledge on how to commit various crimes. If they left with a qualification or further education that gave them the chance of a job there might a hope of them not re-offending.

In the words of Martin Cahill "The borstols were my primary, Pats was my seconday and the Joy was university". The only thing most prisions are doing know is providing further education in crime to repeating criminals.

They do, They can do their leaving cert, prisons offer courses for prisoners

RMD

Raze_them_all wrote: »

They do, They can do their leaving cert, prisons offer courses for prisoners

Having talked to people who've gone through the prision system, I've been told that the current qualifications offered or say repeating the LC are worthless as the education you receive to repeat your LC is barely comparable to standard public school.

Mossy Monk

Chain gangs, hard labour and basic rations. That will be a deterrant for most.

rednik

What I would like to see in a serious crime is the victims family having a say in the sentencing and I don't mean the impact statement, I mean a real input into what the perp should receive.

Kipperhell

Alaia Rancid Geisha wrote: »

Couldn't we have both? Punish the offenders, make the punishment so harsh that they'd never dream of doing it again...

We know that punishment doesn't work already so no. Fear of being caught is apparently the best deterrent to a crime.

It doesn't really matter what if you think it would work just assume there is an effective way better than punishment.

Latchy

stovelid wrote: »

For me, the purpose of their incarceration is not to extract revenge, but to benefit society by keeping them out of circulation.

Except not for long enough .Murderers ,Rapists and many mentally disturbed people are allowed out to go on to muder and rape , time and time again . Take the case of those two monsters who murdered the two frenchmen in London this year .One of the convicted who was a regular jailbird already had a warrant out for his arrest before he and the other phyco slowly tortured the two men to death apparently because they were frustrasted at not being able to obtain money from the atm machine with the mens pin numbers .

Pygmalion

segaBOY wrote: »

25k for committing a crime? Where do I sign up?

At your local post office, bring a knife.

Biggins

Mossy Monk wrote: »

Chain gangs, hard labour and basic rations. That will be a deterrent for most.

If not, it would be a good start!
Give them a taste of the stick and the carrot, then see if they are so keen to re-offend!
So far we are not giving them the stick but what's just an inconvenient timed "break" for some and a lot of carrots!

480905

The Prisons in Ireland definitely do not contribute to any form of rehabilitation.The necessary services are available if required but the only way a prisoner will be rehabilitated is if he or she WANTS to be. It cant be forced on someone. Prisoners are afforded every convenience that you or I must pay for in everyday life. Granted, they are deprived of liberty but that is seen as an occupational hazard.

Prison officers stabbed trying to halt inmate fight - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

Blazer

DublinDes wrote: »

And what the bankers and politicians who allowed them to bankrupt the country to the tune of 54 Billion ? The millions squandered by FAS etc ?

Same as the US...150 years ....:D