Anyone had gbb's seized although legal?

hightower1

Hi all,

Was just wondering if anyone has ever had an airsoft device held or destroyed even though it was tested under 1j? I ask because after 3 months Gardai ballistics have tested x2 acm 1911 meu's and found them legal but they have been referred to the superintendent as they are "imitation firearms" and if she wants to destroy them she can.... apparently? I was kinda stunned that even though they are not illegal that if the guards dont like them they can be destroyed???? Anyone ever had this happen or know if its right at all?

Thanks everyone.

joekickass345

ehh well i dont know much about law
but im pretty sure that isnt legal
she cant just do that

thermo

I presume they were seized in transit? Ie in the post? If so follow it up if they are under the limit then they should be returned to you! Beware though the garda are not too promt at returning stuff.

Stercus Accidit

They certainly aren't.

bullets

Its a worry I've always had, especially with Pistols.
(And I've one currently in transsit!) I've had them stopped
at customs and have been asked for a firearms licence before and needed
to ring them to sort it out, but nothing has been seized and sent for testing.

Pistols seem to be more evil than other gun like objects to a lot of people.

Maybe the IAA may be able to offer advice as to what The Gardai can and cannot do
when it comes specifically to getting a perfectly legal Airsoft device delivered.

Everytime my mind thinks IAA, I keep getting reminded of "The A Team"
if you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the IAA-Team (cue music)

kdouglas

It's probably confusion due to the recent changes in the law.... read up on the law changes so you are familiar with them yourself, then contact the superintendent in question and speak to them.

fayer

kdouglas wrote: »

It's probably confusion due to the recent changes in the law.... read up on the law changes so you are familiar with them yourself, then contact the superintendent in question and speak to them.

KD is bang on her I guess. Their is no standing that allows them to destroy a legal device in the current setup. "I don't like the look of them" is just not good enough.

Contact them, be polite most importantly, ask under what provisions they are destroying your devices as this is very unusual according to advice from the sports NGB.

Remember these people are just doing their job and might have the wrong information from management.

hightower1

Thanks for the replies everyone, Have been polite thus far to them but at this stage its wearing a little. I offered testing / spec sheets along with signed decelerations of conformity to the customs officer and detective who sent them up but none of them wanted to hear it. Even when tested legal they still have them.

I totally understand backlogs and due process I think we all do but three months and no communication is taking the mick. Just seems like no Garda wants to be the one to hand them back for fear they are illegal in some obscure way and it comes down on their heads. I suppose I just have to wait and see what the superintendent says but if they dont release them I'll be on to the ombudsman and my local detective.

Thanks again everyone.

richie is200

i had one taken off me because i was trying to shoot someone with it when i was langers drunk:D,i just let them keep it.

Leftyflip

richie is200 wrote: »

i had one taken off me because i was trying to shoot someone with it when i was langers drunk:D,i just let them keep it.

Word of advice, don't come back...
You have put hundreds of people's sport, hobby, career in jeopardy...

OddysAirsoft

Well said Lefty......its people like that that make me puke!!!

richie is200

Leftyflip wrote: »

Word of advice, don't come back...
You have put hundreds of people's sport, hobby, career in jeopardy...

FRUoddy wrote: »

Well said Lefty......its people like that that make me puke!!!

:D

o1s1n

richie is200 wrote: »

i had one taken off me because i was trying to shoot someone with it when i was langers drunk:D,i just let them keep it.

Permabanned. You have no place here.

.22 Lover

o1s1n wrote: »

Permabanned. You have no place here.

Sorry for asking but whats Perma stand for?

Leftyflip

.22 Lover wrote: »

Sorry for asking but whats Perma stand for?

permanently (so glad I had a marker with permanent written on it in front of me).

Back onnn topic.
Will there be a "grace period" as such after the ban is implemented, cos if I have a delayed order and it arrives after the ban, I'm a be p*ssed off.

.22 Lover

All parts such as slides,metalkits,slides and mags are still alowed after the ban right?

hightower1

.22 Lover wrote: »

All parts such as slides,metalkits,slides and mags are still alowed after the ban right?

Thats a good question, as it is customs are holding ANOTHER separate shipment from rsov to me sent about a week after the pistols, only a casv fore grip, p90 style silencer and vltor iron sight but they wont release that delivery until they hear back about the gbb's. Milled metal one piece parts nothing illegal about them but yet... they dont like the look of them.

I thought we pay these people enforce the law not what they do and dont like?
I'd say something if I had a record but I've never had as much as a parkin ticket lol.
If they are doing this now I can only imagine what they'll be like after the new changes.

Private Snafu

I had an AK47 seized a couple of years ago (not to long after the legalisation of aeg's)
it took the best part of six months to get it back, which was only due to a firends relative being a Garda. In the end the rifle had never been sent for ballistic testing and had been left sitting in the station:mad:

Best thing to do is to call them daily asking about the status of ballisitic tests ect... If all else fails contact the Garda Ombudsman;)

Witcher

.22 Lover wrote: »

All parts such as slides,metalkits,slides and mags are still alowed after the ban right?

Yep, I'm pretty sure the IAA were assured that, if they are stopped it will only be for VAT.

diverdriver

It strikes me as something similar to the problem that owners of real firearms had. Individual Garda officers placing their own intepretation of the law and indeed bias. There is something rather third world about this kind of thing. The items are legal, as proved by ballistics. Not only that similar items are openly on sale in shops around the country. Yet this officer feels she has to right to hold onto and or destroy your property at her whim. She is in fact acting illegally.

I suggest a face to face meeting, you bringing all the relevant legislation and possibly someone from the IAA.

We live in free country, allegedly. We need to stop tip toeing around situations like this. We don't live in a police state, yet.

hightower1

diverdriver wrote: »

It strikes me as something similar to the problem that owners of real firearms had. Individual Garda officers placing their own intepretation of the law and indeed bias. There is something rather third world about this kind of thing. The items are legal, as proved by ballistics. Not only that similar items are openly on sale in shops around the country. Yet this officer feels she has to right to hold onto and or destroy your property at her whim. She is in fact acting illegally.

I suggest a face to face meeting, you bringing all the relevant legislation and possibly someone from the IAA.

We live in free country, allegedly. We need to stop tip toeing around situations like this. We don't live in a police state, yet.

I agree, i mean they are in place to enforce the law... Irish cops seem to be in place to enforce what they believe the law is to them. The detective advised up to ten working days so yet again i will allow the alloted time pass and then have to contact them back so will find out then but I wont be leaving this go. Its plain and simple black and white facts of being legal so i cant imagine they wont release it but I am more than willing to take it further.
I contacted the ombudsman as soon as I was told the time frame of up to 4 months, response was basically its Garda procedure and as such not a valid complaint.... If I told someone in my job that they wont have their problem sorted in maybe three months or 4 or even maybe 5 I couldn't imagine the reaction I'd get.

Stercus Accidit

I've been waiting 7 or more months now on one gbb and really need to know what to do next to get somewhere with this.

Horse84

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

I've been waiting 7 or more months now on one gbb and really need to know what to do next to get somewhere with this.

Been waiting since aug/sep 08 on one, more then likely lost:rolleyes:

JonnyTwoCombs

That’s sounds quite typical of this country, why bother going though the expense, not to mention the time and effort of importing an item, which under current law is perfectly legal only to have it seized by the ‘guardians of the law’. :mad:

You would be much better off importing the real steel versions in your next consignment of cocaine! As least then you’d get it past customs. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Leftyflip

I don't fully agree with terms of the new legislation, but I accept it, it was made with the best intentions and if anything it helps safeguard our sport. I'd prefer the legislation to come into effect; it supports Irish retailers and helps stop people getting airsoft devices for the wrong reasons.
Under the current laws it is perfectly legal to import them once under the limit. The new law says it isn't, you actually make a saving buying Irish most of the time.

.22 Lover

What about spare parts and gas mags are they alloud in under the new law?

JonnyTwoCombs

Hang on folks, I’m only new to the forum and somewhat new, when compared with others to the sport in general. But shouldn’t one of the associations, or perhaps someone heavily involved in the sport with some legal knowledge offer to follow this up, or at best offer some sound advice to others.

We are after all, All involved in the game and setbacks such as the ones experienced by some posters could easily happen to the retailers, then we (as a sport)would all be at a huge loss.

hightower1

Myself i am not a member of the IAA, I dont need of have in date photo id and dont much see a point to have to renew a drivers licence or get ANTOHER passport made up just to become a member. I only plink in my own house so not much of a need although I did investigate as I would like to give support bt this whole need for valid photo ID was too much hassle along with the cost of 15 to renew the license and 20 to join.

I did email the IAA stating although I am not a memeber is there any advice they could give.. that was two months ago and nothing back yet.

Seems like not bothering was a good move.

Mervenut

hightower1 wrote: »

Myself i am not a member of the IAA, I dont need of have in date photo id and dont much see a point to have to renew a drivers licence or get ANTOHER passport made up just to become a member. I only plink in my own house so not much of a need although I did investigate as I would like to give support bt this whole need for valid photo ID was too much hassle along with the cost of 15 to renew the license and 20 to join.

I did email the IAA stating although I am not a memeber is there any advice they could give.. that was two months ago and nothing back yet.

Seems like not bothering was a good move.

I am certain that the IAA have helped non-members with situations like this, i'd email them again via the website and ask for help, the agm is this coming weekend and I'm sure they will try to be of help!

Horse84

Mervenut wrote: »

I am certain that the IAA have helped non-members with situations like this, i'd email them again via the website and ask for help, the agm is this coming weekend and I'm sure they will try to be of help!

As regards my own case as an IAA member, i did contact them and i think it was stephen i was onto, he was very helpful but realisically they can only offer you advice on how to deal with customs. There's very little they can do to help individual cases.

hightower1

LMFAO. This is a good one...

So a call today to the Shannon Gardai comes back as follow.... x2 acm MEU gbb's are tested as legal by ballistics dept BUT the cheif super intendent still doesnt like these so they are scheduling a date in Ennis district court and sending a summons that I can decline and they will destroy them or I can appeal this myself in the court!!!! lol.

So the Gardai are now allowed destroy an item that they dont like, legal or not but again I can fight in a court of law that my legal property should be returned to me as they are being held by a third party because they want to???? Isnt that called thieft? lol.

Bullets: you were mentioning that you were in a similar situ and they wanted a chat with you before returning them? Anything like this farce thrown your way?

There is no way I am leaving this go, I'll see them in court and slap down the criminal justice act section ref the legality of an airsoft device under 1j along side the ballistics report, decleration of conformaty and spec sheets.

*Note to self, rent a few good men and study up.

Leftyflip

Jaysus, a bit extreme no?
Good luck with that one.

hightower1

Ya a small bit alright, I just think its an utter waste of court, Garda and my time. I have no record and think it shows the pure ignorance of the Gardai in relation to airsoft.

No longer is the law the law.... its the artistic definition of it varying from Garda to Garda. lol the legal definition of theft is... theft is the taking of someone else’s property with the intention of permanently depriving that person of it under no legal basis.

hightower1

Well, there is an ombudsman complaint gone in, as far as I can see the intendant in question is in fact acting illegally buy refusing to release the items although having been proved as legal so I look forward to hearing back from that.

The IAA has gotten back to me and advised they are forwarding this on to their legal adviser which is absolutely top notch of them I have to say.

Its sad that such an abuse of power can take place in these days. 15 years ago a Garda used their discretion in everything.... drink driving... a slap on the wrist and get home with ya but these aren't the days we live in now, now in modern Ireland all of us including Gardai need to follow the law, discretion comes into it of coarse but this is only meant to be a stop gap measure until they can consult and investigate to get the guidelines from the legislation. In this case I cant even see why they bothered to test if they still weren't going to release them.

gerrowadat

Are you being charged with something?

Do they issue summonses for 'a wee chat' now?

hightower1

Nope, not being charged with anything that was my first question swiftly followed by a confused "and they ARE legal?"
The gardai simply do not want to return them.

I think its more they are hoping I wont show and they can destroy them by default, I get the sense from the sergeant dealing with this that he finds it a bit ridiculous too given the long erm and ahhhm's after I did ask "but they are legal" and his own advice that "I can bring a solicitor but I wont need one really".

It was the Chief Superintendent's decision. She's the A typical curtain twitcer terrified of airsoft but wont actually bother to learn something about it.

thermo

hightower1 wrote: »

Nope, not being charged with anything that was my first question swiftly followed by a confused "and they ARE legal?"
The gardai simply do not want to return them.

I think its more they are hoping I wont show and they can destroy them by default, I get the sense from the sergeant dealing with this that he finds it a bit ridiculous too given the long erm and ahhhm's after I did ask "but they are legal" and his own advice that "I can bring a solicitor but I wont need one really".

It was the Chief Superintendent's decision. She's the A typical curtain twitcer terrified of airsoft but wont actually bother to learn something about it.

In which reigion you based?

bullets

hightower1 wrote: »

Bullets: you were mentioning that you were in a similar situ and they wanted a chat with you before returning them? Anything like this farce thrown your way?

I was supposed to meet the Garda member that I was dealing with today
but got a phone call last night around twenty to eleven saying he would not be about. I'm calling out to him Saturday instead. (Suits me better)

The guy I was dealing with sounded pretty sound and down to earth
on the phone, He was friendly enough, and I did not want to do or say anything to him to make him less friendly! he said if he had his way he would ban them all. but he also said he would give me my GBB but only face to face if I called into the station.

He was looking for some paperwork to prove I was a member of a club or association, I said it was not a requirement but I was an IAA member and would bring along my ID card to show him.

I also sent a letter to him with a snapshot of the details of the GBB which included the power and I also mentioned that 134a powered Pistols are
unlikely to exceed the 1j level in Cold ol Ireland etc etc.

I can understand his point of view a little too, Pistol arrives on his Lap to deal with through no choice of his own, he becomes somewhat responsible to what happens it, what if I was was some dodgy scumbag that bought the pistol to mess about with or worse and he just hands it out to me without any questions, I'm sure he guy would get in trouble with his boss,
if I ended up acting the maggot or breaking the law etc.


~B

Stonewolf

hightower1 wrote: »

Nope, not being charged with anything that was my first question swiftly followed by a confused "and they ARE legal?"
The gardai simply do not want to return them.

I think its more they are hoping I wont show and they can destroy them by default, I get the sense from the sergeant dealing with this that he finds it a bit ridiculous too given the long erm and ahhhm's after I did ask "but they are legal" and his own advice that "I can bring a solicitor but I wont need one really".

It was the Chief Superintendent's decision. She's the A typical curtain twitcer terrified of airsoft but wont actually bother to learn something about it.

They're probably just trying to avoid paying shipping

hightower1

bullets wrote: »

I was supposed to meet the Garda member that I was dealing with today
but got a phone call last night around twenty to eleven saying he would not be about. I'm calling out to him Saturday instead. (Suits me better)

The guy I was dealing with sounded pretty sound and down to earth
on the phone, He was friendly enough, and I did not want to do or say anything to him to make him less friendly! he said if he had his way he would ban them all. but he also said he would give me my GBB but only face to face if I called into the station.

He was looking for some paperwork to prove I was a member of a club or association, I said it was not a requirement but I was an IAA member and would bring along my ID card to show him.

I also sent a letter to him with a snapshot of the details of the GBB which included the power and I also mentioned that 134a powered Pistols are
unlikely to exceed the 1j level in Cold ol Ireland etc etc.

I can understand his point of view a little too, Pistol arrives on his Lap to deal with through no choice of his own, he becomes somewhat responsible to what happens it, what if I was was some dodgy scumbag that bought the pistol to mess about with or worse and he just hands it out to me without any questions, I'm sure he guy would get in trouble with his boss,
if I ended up acting the maggot or breaking the law etc.


~B

@ thermo , I'm based in Limerick myself.

Seems weird that for one gbb they will release this to someone but for x2 they want it to go to court! I have been nothing but courtious and nice to them. I offered the decleration of conformity, spec sheet, even the guidlines referring to power ratings to them but they didnt want it.

Personally I dont care much if they "like" airsoft or not the fact of the matter is I have done nothing wrong and yet am being treated like a criminal.

bullets

hightower1 wrote: »

I have done nothing wrong and yet am being treated like a criminal.

You should see how your treated if you went looking for a licence for
a real firearm! Depending on the Person you deal with, and the area
you live you get widely varying results.

you get ignored, you get treated like a small bold child, you
get told Porky Pies, you have to deal with ridiculous mind boggling logic,
house inspections, Total ignorance about your equipment, you may
have the powers that be say they will let you have one gun if you get rid of another all sorts of weirdness and crazyness.
All the time you need to be pleasant, smile, not loose the temper and be extremely patient as if your not you might look like a Mad Looney gun nut that should be locked up.

Its not enough to have an interest in the sport & pastime
the laws and procedures actually cripple, hinder the growth in the sport
and obliterate certain disciplines, or make it next to impossible for
someone to legally try the sport before they buy a gun.

At least with Airsoft at the moment you can goto a site and Try the sport
to see if you like it first before you buy equipment, Or you can buy
some of the equipment in a Shop here without hassle if your only a plinker or collector.

~B

hightower1

bullets wrote: »

You should see how your treated if you went looking for a licence for
a real firearm! Depending on the Person you deal with, and the area
you live you get widely varying results.

you get ignored, you get treated like a small bold child, you
get told Porky Pies, you have to deal with ridiculous mind boggling logic,
house inspections, Total ignorance about your equipment, you may
have the powers that be say they will let you have one gun if you get rid of another all sorts of weirdness and crazyness.
All the time you need to be pleasant, smile, not loose the temper and be extremely patient as if your not you might look like a Mad Looney gun nut that should be locked up.

Its not enough to have an interest in the sport & pastime
the laws and procedures actually cripple, hinder the growth in the sport
and obliterate certain disciplines, or make it next to impossible for
someone to legally try the sport before they buy a gun.

At least with Airsoft at the moment you can goto a site and Try the sport
to see if you like it first before you buy equipment, Or you can buy
some of the equipment in a Shop here without hassle if your only a plinker or collector.

~B

I really am taken back by this, myself I only collect adn plink indoors but talk about putting me off actually playing the sport!
I mean nearly every airsofter I have come in contact with, collecter, plinker or true player of the sport would gladly assist the gardai in any matter surrounding it yet the Gardai seem to treat it as some kind of criminal act? I mean the rings they make you jump through and the attitude you get for trying to be helpful when in fact there is nothing illegal being done. I have broken no law what so ever but yet am stilll forced to go to court to retrive my own legaly bought property from the Gards.
It seems like they see it as making their own job more difficult .... if we all just banned or refused point blank anything that made our jobs difficult we'd be out of work in no time. I have to say the Gardai are the most ungrateful pack of people ever, they deal with scum every day but when they come accross people geniunly breaking no law and attempting to be helpful in anyway they can they haul them to court!

Gray

hightower1 wrote: »

I really am taken back by this, myself I only collect adn plink indoors but talk about putting me off actually playing the sport!
I mean nearly every airsofter I have come in contact with, collecter, plinker or true player of the sport would gladly assist the gardai in any matter surrounding it yet the Gardai seem to treat it as some kind of criminal act? I mean the rings they make you jump through and the attitude you get for trying to be helpful when in fact there is nothing illegal being done. I have broken no law what so ever but yet am stilll forced to go to court to retrive my own legaly bought property from the Gards.
It seems like they see it as making their own job more difficult .... if we all just banned or refused point blank anything that made our jobs difficult we'd be out of work in no time. I have to say the Gardai are the most ungrateful pack of people ever, they deal with scum every day but when they come accross people geniunly breaking no law and attempting to be helpful in anyway they can they haul them to court!

Unfortunately the "authority's" tend to try & walk all over law abiding people as they can often get away with it. Your average scumbag with his brief on speed dial would not have had this problem, they would of demanded the ballistic test be done within 14 days or GBB's returned & by now would have slapped a summons on the Superintendent & put in a claim for compensation.

What's more annoying is that it's probably easier for a scumbag to get hold of RS than it is for an honest person to get RIF's

Fallschirmjager

jeeze lads i have to say this is one depressing read....sorry to hear of your trouble dude..best of luck and keep us informed.

babyjames

Asshole

richie is200 wrote: »

i had one taken off me because i was trying to shoot someone with it when i was langers drunk:D,i just let them keep it.

o1s1n

babyjames wrote: »

Asshole

Banned. Personal abuse is not allowed in any form.

hightower1

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

jeeze lads i have to say this is one depressing read....sorry to hear of your trouble dude..best of luck and keep us informed.

Thanks mate, will do.
Seems like with this and the recent crackdown in importing parts the Gardai are making their stance clear. Very sad considering the vast majority of airsofters want to work WITH them not against them.

ryanner

Leftyflip wrote: »

I don't fully agree with terms of the new legislation, but I accept it, it was made with the best intentions and if anything it helps safeguard our sport. I'd prefer the legislation to come into effect; it supports Irish retailers and helps stop people getting airsoft devices for the wrong reasons.
Under the current laws it is perfectly legal to import them once under the limit. The new law says it isn't, you actually make a saving buying Irish most of the time.

what exactly is the new legislation and when is it coming into force

hightower1

basically it means that if your not a retailer you cannot import any airsoft device no matter the FPS, all retailers need a special application to do so.
Airsoft accessories are a grey area as to wether they will be allowed or not I think.
There is no official date yet but expect it in early Jan to take effect.


Not that its particularly smooth sailing as is, my x2 gbb's are STILL with the cops and have my day in court coming up. they have no legislation to site so they have sent an application for seizure of property which i can choose to appeal or not..... which I am, not letting them get away with this at all.

About the ban, eirsoft have really taken it into consideration and set up a partnership with RSOV redwolf and ehobby meaning they will order for you from their range, means a little bit on top for them and a little longer than usuall for an eirsoft delivery but it means their lines have effectivly exploded in size and the choice we can get is now brill.

Great business thinking from tony and the guys I have to say.
They have a thread explaing it on the retailers section and also on their site.

Leftyflip

Good luck with the court date man, it's a bit of a joke, them keeping perfectly legal airsoft devices.

bullets

hightower1 wrote: »

Not that its particularly smooth sailing as is, my x2 gbb's are STILL with the cops and have my day in court coming up. they have no legislation to site so they have sent an application for seizure of property which i can choose to appeal or not..... which I am, not letting them get away with this at all.

I'm still trying to figure out how both of us had two completely different
experiences at the same station, I got mine back, you got a summons!
its totally weird.

Did your 2 GBB's get sent for testing before all the hassle ?
You may have had a different experience if yours were sent for
ballistic testing.

With my situation, My GBB was sent from Customs directly to a Garda
but did not get sent for testing and I got mine back, I was
told that they would have got sent for destruction! My Phone call to them
was probably what stopped that from happening automatically.
(I tested mine my self 0.43j of energy is what it came in as)

I got a phone call from them the other day, and the Garda turned up at my place of work, and was waiting in the Reception Area for me, with a huge paddy wagon parked outside so he could get me to sign for a receipt,
for "Property Returned by Garda Siochana to owner" docket From a brief chat with him I got the feeling my situation caused him a lot of hassle at work. Was funny and a bit weird seeing a fully uniformed garda member turn up, looking for me, especially when half the company I work for know me by my user name, I reckon they all thought I was going to get arrested
or something! :eek:

Have you called out to the station in Person yet High Tower? wondering if it would
make a difference getting things sorted out. I ended up calling into the station and getting my
IAA ID photocopied and having a few phone calls made.
~B