Wimmins out !

Morrisseeee

The Supreme Court has ruled that Portmarnock Golf Club can continue to exclude women as full members because it is exempted under equal status legislation.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1103/portmarnock.html

Damn right I say...........:eek: only kiddin

Tom Ghostwood

Are women ever really full members though? Tuesday is ladies day in Roscrea GC. Flippin' Tuesday! They get a ****ty deal & the only weekend golf they get to play is mixed foursomes.

carnsoreboxer

A disgrace - would love to have a game there though

f22

Proper order in my opinion, not that I have anything against lady golfers. The option should be there to have a men or women only club for that matter.

Sandwich

Morrisseeee wrote: »

The Supreme Court has ruled that Portmarnock Golf Club can continue to exclude women as full members because it is exempted under equal status legislation.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1103/portmarnock.html

Damn right I say...........:eek: only kiddin

Damn right I say........ not kiddin at all.

Equalty agenda gone bananas if you cannot form a club of like minded people to provide for their chosen requirements. You might disagree with people wanting to form one with those restrictions (dont join them!), but you shouldnt try to restrict them from doing so.

Mister Sifter

Isn't Royal Dublin a mens only club too?

It's not as if there aren't enough other golf clubs for them to join in the area around Portmarnock.

Genco

Interesting decision today .... would have been hilarious to see the reaction if the judgement had been split with the three male judges taking one view and the two female judges taking the opposite

Anyone able to tell me if Royal Dublin have lady female membership category and does anyone have any accurate figures for the percentage of women in other clubs that took up full ordinary membership instead of associate membership when it became available.

coleen

boys us ladies have no problem with portmarnock where I have the problem is where they charge me the same sub as a male member ie full membership and tell me come on Tuesday morning or Sunday afternoon! How can this be right. Most of us ladies have to work on Tuesday unlike olden times where ladies had men to provide for all the need of the family and they could hit the fairway during the week. Time have changed so move over

f22

Very simple, join somewhere that's more "lady friendly. If my club is anything to go by they would find something to moan about anyway. They do themselves no favours at all.

jimjo

Fair dues to the members who had to represent the club in court and than to go back to their wives and daughters!!

I laughed whenever it came on the radio at work! I wonder if there was a women’s only club would men bring them to court to try and get in, I think not….

soundsham

b*ll*x,........I suppose that means I won't get into the curves classes up the gym either:mad:

golfgirl

Jimjo, I don't think you'd be laughing if you were the one being discriminated against. And so what if there are other choices of clubs in the area for women to join ... the point is that women should have the right to join Portmarnock, whether or not they want to exercise that right is another matter. In this case though the failure lies with the Equality Legislation and the Act will need amending to shore up this loophole. I heard an opinion lastnight on the radio that golf is an elitist sport and for that reason, this decision shouldn't really matter. Is discrimination more worthy in a football club or national school or building site? ... discrimination in all forms is unacceptable.

Mister Sifter

golfgirl wrote: »

The point is that women should have the right to join Portmarnock, whether or not they want to exercise that right is another matter.

Why? Why should you have the right to join Portmarnock?

f22

Women can actually become members of Portmarnock, the fact is that they don't have the same playing rights as men. They don't want women there in the first place, so why would any woman actually want to become part of somewhere they aren't wanted is beyond me.

There are tons of other clubs out there far more accepting so why the issue. As someone else pointed out it's a bit like being a gym member and not being allowed to participate in the curves classes.

Mister Sifter

f22 wrote: »

Women can actually become members of Portmarnock, the fact is that they don't have the same playing rights as men. They don't want women there in the first place, so why would any woman actually want to become part of somewhere they aren't wanted is beyond me.

There are tons of other clubs out there far more accepting so why the issue. As someone else pointed out it's a bit like being a gym member and not being allowed to participate in the curves classes.

The most galling thing about it all is that it was taxpayers' money that was used to pay for the court case. All because a bunch of moaning women wanted to prove a point.

BombSquad

golfgirl wrote: »

Jimjo, I don't think you'd be laughing if you were the one being discriminated against. And so what if there are other choices of clubs in the area for women to join ... the point is that women should have the right to join Portmarnock, whether or not they want to exercise that right is another matter. In this case though the failure lies with the Equality Legislation and the Act will need amending to shore up this loophole. I heard an opinion lastnight on the radio that golf is an elitist sport and for that reason, this decision shouldn't really matter. Is discrimination more worthy in a football club or national school or building site? ... discrimination in all forms is unacceptable.

As long as there are woman only clubs/businesses women don't have a leg to stand on.

How is golf an elitist sport anyway? Most clubs are more than willing to accept and are actively seeking new members. Hardly elitist behaviour.

golfgirl

Mister Sifter wrote: »

Why? Why should you have the right to join Portmarnock?

Thanks f22, I should have said, women should have the same playing rights as men in Portmarnock, .... why Mister Sifter? because that is what's called equal rights.

death1234567

Anyone who's ever been stuck behind a fourball of women knows why this ruling makes sense.

f22

golfgirl wrote: »

Thanks f22, I should have said, women should have the same playing rights as men in Portmarnock, .... why Mister Sifter? because that is what's called equal rights.

Incorrect, women are excluded from becoming full members which excludes them from having full playing rights.

Mitch Connor

golfgirl wrote: »

Thanks f22, I should have said, women should have the same playing rights as men in Portmarnock, .... why Mister Sifter? because that is what's called equal rights.

There are women only gyms, there are women only insurance companies. Ladies in free before Xtime in clubs etc - If there is no problem with having Women only places, events and special offers, there should be no problem with men only stuff as well. It is only fair.

minotour

This is obviously an emotive issue for some women, perhaps local to the club but for ALL women to get up in arms is overkill, next ye'll be eating Yorkies.

The idea of some old fuddy-duddies standing at the gates of their club declaring "No B1Tches" cracks me up, then to go to the supreme court over it..........hilarious, in a carry-on movie kind of way.

G1032

golfgirl wrote: »

Jimjo, I don't think you'd be laughing if you were the one being discriminated against. And so what if there are other choices of clubs in the area for women to join ... the point is that women should have the right to join Portmarnock, whether or not they want to exercise that right is another matter. In this case though the failure lies with the Equality Legislation and the Act will need amending to shore up this loophole. I heard an opinion lastnight on the radio that golf is an elitist sport and for that reason, this decision shouldn't really matter. Is discrimination more worthy in a football club or national school or building site? ... discrimination in all forms is unacceptable.

Golfgirl
Portmarnock is a mens club, set up by men, for men. There are plenty of womens only clubs such as gyms etc. If Portmarnock don't want women as members of their 'club' then that is their choice. It is no more discrimination than a womens only gym not allowing men to join. And just to clarify - I wouldn't join Portmarnock myself if it was the only club in the country.

minotour

The women only gyms are aimed at providing a safe environment for women to workout. Safe from us that is, unfortunatly its true that a high percent of lecherous men out there think its fine to hassle women at the gym, therefore i dont think that arugment can be used in this discussion. Consider this, if women were constantly trying to pull the men in the club would there be an issue?

ThunderCat

Fair play to Portmarnock. They are a private club who enforce their own rules and traditions and should not be made to change their policy and thankfully they wernt. I could understand the female point of view if Portmarnock were the only golf course in the country, but there are hundreds of clubs that would happily accept female membership. Id bet that if Portmarnock were to open their membership to women, only a handfull at the most would apply. It's a bit like the case a few years back at Augusta in america. There was a womens rights group leader that tried to become a member there knowing full well that she wouldnt get in and could therefore slam the club for not allowing female members. This woman didnt even play golf and if she got in she wouldnt have been able to afford the membership. It was pointless. She was just sticking her nose in.

Mister Sifter

minotour wrote: »

The women only gyms are aimed at providing a safe environment for women to workout. Safe from us that is, unfortunatly its true that a high percent of lecherous men out there think its fine to hassle women at the gym, therefore i dont think that arugment can be used in this discussion. Consider this, if women were constantly trying to pull the men in the club would there be an issue?

Ridiculous argument. So the women want a gym free of men and that is ok, but men who want a golf club free of women, they are out of order?

f22

May I also point out that I am also excluded from becoming a member of Portmarnock, even though I am local.

The fact is the club is a closed shop and unless you are a relative of a member your chances are slim to nil. I'm not bringing them to court though!

minotour

Depends, are you equating lecherous hassling to constant nagging? Ive seen what goes on in the gyms and I cant blame them for breaking out on their own. Proportionality is required here if using that argument.

Silverfish

Mister Sifter wrote: »

Ridiculous argument. So the women want a gym free of men and that is ok, but men who want a golf club free of women, they are out of order?

But the point is it's not free of women, they are still allowed to play, just not be members.

The only fair way (see what I did there) is to outright ban women from the club altogether, and have it as men only. But not this 'you can play the course but you cannot be a member', that's the bit that's unfair.

Mister Sifter

minotour wrote: »

Depends, are you equating lecherous hassling to constant nagging? Ive seen what goes on in the gyms and I cant blame them for breaking out on their own. Proportionality is required here if using that argument.

So, by your reckoning, all the bull**** that we men have to put up with from female golfers makes it ok for us to go off and set up our own golf clubs where men only can play?

minotour

Mister Sifter wrote: »

So, by your reckoning, all the bull**** that we men have to put up with from female golfers makes it ok for us to go off and set up our own golf clubs where men only can play?

Apart from the bull**** part yes, Ive put up with equal amounts of bull**** from grumpy auld fellas too, lets not tar an entire gender with the same brush. Its probably fair to say you are referring to the "Auld Biddies" factor which we have all surely experienced: An unreasonable, ungrateful, uncooperative bunch of biddies ahead of you and theres no getting past, yes, ban them if possible!

cruizer101

The fact of the matter is it is a private club.

Any private club should be allowed to decide who they want in without worrying about discrimination. Equality is all well and good in the public forum but why shouldn't people be able to choose who they want in their own private club.

golfgirl

death1234567 wrote: »

Anyone who's ever been stuck behind a fourball of women knows why this ruling makes sense.

I know this feeling and it is a pain, politeness and patience is all that's needed, and most men are fair play to ye, just pretend it's your mother in that four ball. I too have had the pleasure of playing amongst men hitting balls right left and centre shouting fore on every hole in my time ... classy stuff. So we all have our gripes. And yes, if a man feels he's being prevented from joining a women's only gym, he too has the right to bring a case to the Equality Tribunal. Why the recriminations against the women who brought this case, when they have a right to do so? Once again, it doesn't matter a jot if there are 10 million courses they could choose from (which there could well be in this country!) or if only one woman wants to have the same full rights as their male counterparts, it equates to discrimination against that one woman, and she has a right to take her case before the Tribunal.

BombSquad

golfgirl wrote: »

And yes, if a man feels he's being prevented from joining a women's only gym, he too has the right to bring a case to the Equality Tribunal.

Or he could just go to another gym and save an almost bankrupt country a fortune in unnecessary legal fees...

PhilipMarlowe

I find it hard to reconcile the word 'rights' when talking about taking a decision to try and join a private club that has a particular ethos and constitution (and history yada yada). A club should be a gathering of relatively like-minded individuals. If their rules and systems are not to your liking then why would you want to join and try to change them?
It's not like car insurance schemes because cars are almost a necessity and having insurance is mandatory so us men basically have little choice but to pay more which could be considered unfair.
It wouldn't be my scene to 'belong' to such a club but I can't see the logic in arguing against it.

ShriekingSheet

Silverfish wrote: »

But the point is it's not free of women, they are still allowed to play, just not be members.

The only fair way (see what I did there) is to outright ban women from the club altogether, and have it as men only. But not this 'you can play the course but you cannot be a member', that's the bit that's unfair.

Gerry Ryan made exactly the same point this morning, and I have to say I find it laughable. So it'd be okay if women were simply banned from the course altogether??

If this case is pushed all the way, then that's exactly what will happen. PGC will become just like Curves Fitness, and not only will the opposite sex still not be allowed join, they won't even be allowed in the gate!

If the pressure keeps up, this is a very realistic outcome, and a "fair" one, according to the law. What I'd like to know is what those arguing for this change have to say about the many females who play regularly at Portmarnock, with their family. They will no longer be allowed to do this, purely because some women want the notional right to join a club that 95% of us on the board here, of either sex, could never get into anyway.

RoadRunner

It's a private club. Membership fee alone wont get you in. There's only a limited amount people able to be members. Therefore the vast majority of people (including most men) can't become members. Membership is invitational. Only a person that the club wants to become a member can become a member. Despite the fact that I'm a man, I'm in the same position as other women, that is that the club don't want me as a member. I can't just go and force them to accept me as a member.

Do I give a sh1t? No.

Am I going to go to court and waste tax payers money to try force them to let me join? No.

If i wanted to play this specific course I still can (instead of one of the other 300+ courses nearby!). I can pay a greenfee on certain days and play the course, just like women can.

G1032

minotour wrote: »

Depends, are you equating lecherous hassling to constant nagging? Ive seen what goes on in the gyms and I cant blame them for breaking out on their own. Proportionality is required here if using that argument.

Well maybe, long ago, the men of Portmarnock saw something they disliked about women golfers and then decided to 'break out on their own', as you put it. It's their club. They can do what they like in it and invite whoever they want to join.

minotour

ronaldochokes wrote: »

It's their club. They can do what they like in it and invite whoever they want to join.

Whats with the 'tude? Sand in your vagina? Handbags at dawn?

WaldenByThoreua

minotour wrote: »

Whats with the 'tude? Sand in your vagina? Handbags at dawn?

What attitude? Maybe he's exasperated? Fact is he's right.

It's a private members club who can invite whoever they want to join and thats fine.

I'm a member there and to me, the place is paradise. I can go out and play as many holes as I want , never have to worry about clogged holes, women not letting me through ( actually that's unfair, men in other clubs are just as bad for not letting faster groups through) orwomen holding me up (that is true:p).

The club was obviously built on a steady financial foundation and if they feel the need to choose who they want as members, more power to them.

GreeBo

Tom Ghostwood wrote: »

Are women ever really full members though? Tuesday is ladies day in Roscrea GC. Flippin' Tuesday! They get a ****ty deal & the only weekend golf they get to play is mixed foursomes.

Any lady who joins my club has to be a Full Member now (assuming they are not going to Pavillion, 5 -day etc)
The Lady Associate category is not open for new people.
Those who were Associates were given the option of becoming full members (with the associated fee's) or staying as Lady Associates.
The majority of them stayed as they were.
On a Saturday (Members Comp day) there are at most 15 women playing (in their own competition)
Tuesday is Ladies day
Wednesday is Mens day (which we choose to have as a semi-open fourball)
Saturday is Members day
Sunday is Family Day.


God help any man who even turns up on a Tuesday.

f22

GreeBo wrote: »

Any lady who joins my club has to be a Full
God help any man who even turns up on a Tuesday.

Sounds exactly like my own club. Given the choice I would throw them all out and use the Portmarnock model.

the_syco

golfgirl wrote: »

the point is that women should have the right to join Portmarnock

I hope you support my right to join Curves gym. Oh, wait, they have some bullsh|t reason to stop men. Boo, f**king, hoo. I think that stopping men from joining anything is now called "positive" discrimination.

jimjo

I heard if men in the Headfort play on ladies day their done for!

I couldn't believe it, say if the old course is booked for ladies day on a tuesday if a male steps foot on the tee (even if its free and has been for a period of time) their in serious trouble. That to me is stupid. I would never deny women to play on a Saturday or Sunday or whenever its mens day, if the tee is free go the hell out and play….!

Par72

I actually couldn't give a fiddlers if Portmarnock want to keep their club as men only. I think it just reflects badly on any man who is a member there and would make me wonder if he was homosexual.

GreeBo

f22 wrote: »

Given the choice I would throw them all out and use the Portmarnock model.

Doesnt bother me in the slightest to be honest.
I have never been held up by women during the members comp. They are usually very quick and are never up trees or down gulleys looking for golf balls.

Anyone who pays full whack should have the same rights. Lord knows we could all do with with more people paying it (and hopefully not playing )
Each sex has their own individual day and this seems fair to me.

I know one male member (bar my own, har har) that was told to F-off one Tuesday. But in fairness I think a lady would get similiar treatment on a Wednesday.
I believe there was/is a members slot every day inc Tuesdays but cant find any info on that now.

Tom Ghostwood

Someone from the golf club is talking on George Hooks show now on Newstalk.

dak

f22 wrote: »

May I also point out that I am also excluded from becoming a member of Portmarnock, even though I am local.

The fact is the club is a closed shop and unless you are a relative of a member your chances are slim to nil. I'm not bringing them to court though!

I'm a local in Portmarnock and I'd agree its virtually a closed shop . My wifes father (Rip) was a member there and when he died his membership couldn't be passed on as he only had 2 daughters. Son in laws not on the closed shop list. Its a Old Boys club with golf as a passtime .. I remember playing there about 12 years ago with my Father in Law on a hot summers day and going into the members bar for a pint and a sandwich around lunch time in the members bar . I was attired in a tailored short sleeve shirt and chinos but had to put on a tie and blazer to gain entry to the members bar despite their being only one other person in the members bar ! What a load of rubblish. If I won the Lotto and was offered membership I wouldn't join it ! Ladies can't see what all the fuss is about ( apart from the equal rights issue)

Mister Sifter

I wonder if any other clubs in Ireland, who were prompted to invite women in following the initial ruling re Portmarnock, will now revert back to their old ways and boot the women out. I would think it unlikely, but you never know.

G1032

minotour wrote: »

Whats with the 'tude? Sand in your vagina? Handbags at dawn?

Thats right ya Minotour. How did you guess? Genius. Are you sure it's not Mensa.ie you should be on instead of Boards.

Morrisseeee

I can understand both sides of the argument, the men set up THEIR club with their requirements, I suppose back then the situation was different, women didn't have much of a say. But I can also understand why the women would want to join a beautiful club (maybe course is a better word!) like Portmarnocock.:p
But I couldn't make a call on it now, as in, should we forget about old traditions and start anew, or should they be upheld ?

Golfanatic

it clearly said in the paper that it was a gentlmens club and golf was played there just saying, i am neutral on this point but however it is a genltemens club