Unions on Frontline..

nesf

Happening right now. Unions being extremely unclear on any actual details behind the "10 point plan". So far, "maybe no increases in wages". "Wages cuts only instead of job losses".

Milstream

typical union man couldnt answer a straight forward question.they are really pi$%ing me off. 10 point plan my arse

Aidric

I was nearly on the floor laughing at that fudging git O Connor just there. As Pat Kenny rightly said "I'm flabbergasted". Does this guy understand basic economics or is he living in cuckooland? It's typical of their militant stance.

Ooooh Pat not happy with that house remark!

Victor_M

Jasus, Pat lashed out at him nicely there over his 'trophy house' comment, that fuppin' clown Jack O'connor is giving me chest pains.

nuttz

did ye see the look on Kenny's face when the remark was made about his house, priceless

gandalf

How can people follow these idiots out onto the streets. Jack O'Connor is showing himself up as a person who shouldn't be allowed run a market stall let alone a union. The so-called 10 point plan is being shown up as a whooly socialist fantasy that the Labour party of Michael Foot would be proud of.

Pathetic!

nesf

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Ooooh Pat not happy with that house remark!

He's damn right though. He built his house over 20 years ago. It's not like he recently purchased a glorious mansion he can throw rocks at the plebs from.

nesf

Aidric wrote: »

I was nearly on the floor laughing at that fudging git O Connor just there. As Pat Kenny rightly said "I'm flabbergasted". Does this guy understand basic economics or is he living in cuckooland? It's typical of their militant stance.

He refused to answer where the money would come from other than these unspecified number of wealthy gits who earn an unspecified amount of money and taxing whom would raise an unspecified amount of cash.

It's all bull.

dodgyme

nesf wrote: »

He refused to answer where the money would come ..It's all bull.

Did someone call JOD's name?

yoshytoshy

Lordy lord ,
Someone should take the carrot off his stick and stick it somewhere else

nesf

dodgyme wrote: »

Did someone call JOD's name?

And that's got what to do with what?

ParkRunner

Even as a civil servant I was cringing at that. The guy in the audience was right in that an opportunity was missed to have a meaningful debate about finding a way out of the current position. Thank god I have no mortgage, debt or dependants.

Wheely

Jack's an absolute useless twat. Not worth his €124,895 or anything close to it. Who the hell does he think he is leading people onto the streets. Muppet.

nesf

EF wrote: »

Even as a civil servant I was cringing at that. The guy in the audience was right in that an opportunity was missed to have a meaningful debate about finding a way out of the current position. Thank god I have no mortgage, debt or dependants.

Simple version is this:

If we extend the borrowing for double the length of time we'll more than double our borrowing up to around 40% of GDP (and that's assuming no extra nasty surprises over the next 8 years which I wouldn't count on).

This isn't just going to affect us, it'll screw over our kids too. They're going to be paying off the interest built up on this debt and paying it back.


This deficit we face isn't being caused by NAMA. NAMA isn't going to be funded out of the public purse. It's coming from tax not being able to cover public wages and the social welfare bill. We either raise taxes (on everyone, not just the wealthy), cut public wage spending or cut social welfare or we borrow money and end up paying back more than we would have lost to cuts. We'll have to do all of those, raise taxes, cut wages, cut social welfare and borrow some money (we can't avoid borrowing money). The unions are trying to convince people we can avoid 2 of those 4. That is a lie, we cannot do so and there's no free or painless way to avoid cuts, if we borrow we just create more of a burden for our kids to shoulder and that isn't exactly painless either.

Milstream

What a tool that Jack O' Connor is. Made a complete muppet of himself and this man the leader of one of the head unions in Ireland. Imagine coming on national TV and talking utter sh&te. This guy represents thousand and thousands of people my god what a shower of ......... [EMAIL="wan@Im"]Im[/EMAIL] so disappointed and angry at that fool. For once Pat Kenny put someone in there place.

nesf

Actually, I'm ****ing incensed by this talk of borrowing more money to ease the pain.

My 3 year old son is who's going to be paying for this. When he grows up and enters the workforce the tax he pays will depend on the borrowing of my generation. Pain we avoid today by borrowing does not disappear, it is felt by our children when the interest bill has to be paid out of their wages.

It is utter lunacy to suggest we borrow more for current expenditure. That is literally, paying the wages of nurses and Gardaí of today out of the wages our children earn while they attempt to pay for the wages of nurses and Gardaí of their time.

It's not free, it's not painless it's ****ing over kids so we can avoid creating a little pain now. No one should think this is worth it, our kids will have enough economic **** to deal with without us dropping a whole heap of debt onto their laps.

/rant

eoinbn

nesf wrote: »

Actually, I'm ****ing incensed by this talk of borrowing more money to ease the pain.

My 3 year old son is who's going to be paying for this. When he grows up and enters the workforce the tax he pays will depend on the borrowing of my generation. Pain we avoid today by borrowing does not disappear, it is felt by our children when the interest bill has to be paid out of their wages.

It is utter lunacy to suggest we borrow more for current expenditure. That is literally, paying the wages of nurses and Gardaí of today out of the wages our children earn while they attempt to pay for the wages of nurses and Gardaí of their time.

It's not free, it's not painless it's ****ing over kids so we can avoid creating a little pain now. No one should think this is worth it, our kids will have enough economic **** to deal with without us dropping a whole heap of debt onto their laps.

/rant

The effect is much more immediate than that. Here is why ICTU's 8 year plan is complete nonsense.

Lets start with a deficit of €22bn. The unions want to reduce the rate of cuts by 1/2(well they want no cuts, but lets ignore that), so €2bn cuts per year. €2bn cuts=€1bn reduction in deficit as taxes fall. So now we have a deficit of €21bn next year, but with an extra billion in interest and an extra billion in debt repayments(5% interest, 20 year bond-longterm),so infact it's €23bn.

So after 8 years with good growth we would end up with a similar deficit of €20-25bn deficit, but with tax rates of 80%, or public sector workers working for minimum wage as our debt repayments would be €25bn per year!

nesf

eoinbn wrote: »

The effect is much more immediate than that. Here is why ICTU's 8 year plan is complete nonsense.

Lets start with a deficit of €22bn. The unions want to reduce the rate of cuts by 1/2(well they want no cuts, but lets ignore that), so €2bn cuts per year. €2bn cuts=€1bn reduction in deficit as taxes fall. So now we have a deficit of €21bn next year, but with an extra billion in interest and an extra billion in debt repayments(5% interest, 20 year bond-longterm),so infact it's €23bn.

So after 8 years with good growth we would end up with a similar deficit of €20-25bn deficit, but with tax rates of 80%, or public sector workers working for minimum wage as our debt repayments would be €25bn per year!

True, but I was getting at the general attitude to borrowing as a solution. You just create a new problem for tomorrow by borrowing for current expenditure. If you factor poor or mediocre growth into your figures the future is far worse.

hallelujajordan

eoinbn wrote: »

The effect is much more immediate than that. Here is why ICTU's 8 year plan is complete nonsense.

Lets start with a deficit of €22bn. The unions want to reduce the rate of cuts by 1/2(well they want no cuts, but lets ignore that), so €2bn cuts per year. €2bn cuts=€1bn reduction in deficit as taxes fall. So now we have a deficit of €21bn next year, but with an extra billion in interest and an extra billion in debt repayments(5% interest, 20 year bond-longterm),so infact it's €23bn.

So after 8 years with good growth we would end up with a similar deficit of €20-25bn deficit, but with tax rates of 80%, or public sector workers working for minimum wage as our debt repayments would be €25bn per year!

The biggest eyeopener for me in last nights 'display' by Jack O'Connor was that it was patently clear that the unions have not costed their 10-point-plan and have no idea whether or not it is feasible. The details were torn apart by those who understand economics and O'Connor was left to look like the fool that he is . . . The unions are a bloody disgrace. . . They played a significant role in creating this mess through social partnership and now they expect the taxpayer to protect an inefficient and overpaid public sector. . .

I hope people who considered taking to the streets on Friday can see through this crap and instead turn up for work and try to keep this economy alive.

Diarmuid

Oh that was priceless. Poor auld Jack must have flunked his junior cert maths.

irish_bob

last night was a pr disaster for the unions , pat kenny quickly took apart o,connors bogus 10 point plan , PK done some service for his country last night , since the FRONTLINE show began , i have a new found respect for the man

as for the rest of the panel , moore mcdowell spelled it out while fintan o toole didnt want to debate the public sector pay bill or the siptu ten point plan at all , instead he wanted to discuss what ireland should be like , i notice the man is fixated on NAMA too , perhaps he comes in here under the name NEW DUBLINER

O' Connor was on Marian Finucane on saturday morning on radio one talking about his life story.

He's on the national executive of the labour party.He described himself as a socialist and attended Sinn Féins ÁRD'fheis.

Hardline nonsense views like what he spouts do not a labour voter make me.

His membership of their NEC which " oversees and co-ordinates the policies, organisation and activities of the Labour Party." link is worrysome.

Thats what would be getting into bed with and wagging the Fine Gael dog in our next government unfortunately...
Roll on 1500 million a week defecits when he gets his crazy hands on the coffers.

Aidric

irish_bob wrote: »

last night was a pr disaster for the unions , pat kenny quickly took apart o,connors bogus 10 point plan , PK done some service for his country last night , since the FRONTLINE show began , i have a new found respect for the man

Yep, Kenny excelled last night. He successfully challenged the fanciful notions of O Connor and exposed him as nothing more than a fantasist.

Seth Brundle

for those like me that didn't get to see Pat's retort...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV8eGD9V6aM

Alcatel

All I can say is holy hell... The unions really think there's some super rich class out there? Well, as the tax lawyer showed up (and she was most refreshing of all, just the facts ma'am) the 'super rich' if we make no cuts to social welfare and pay bill (80% of our spending) is any couple earning more than 75,000 euro comboned.

"It's not about the money we make back" says Jack, looking at the floor, when told that taxing people over 100,000 euro will not claw back enough money.

"We can make cuts to the pay bill without touching pay, allowances, overtime or numbers," he repeats. (With Pat Kenny just shy of saying 'What the f***?')

God damn boys, we're up the river now.

meglome

Any idea when this Frontline show will be available on the RTE site?

Tipp Man

Its rare that you see someone who is in the public eye so much make such a complete ass of themselves on live television.

It would have been hilarious if it wasn't so bloody serious, the unions really have absolutely no clue about facts, figures or have any plan about how to help this country. And what was blatantly obvious they don't really give a **** either, just tax the super rich, they'll pay for it:mad:

Have to say I liked the tax advisor (can't think of her name), knew here stuff, knew all the numbers

Diarmuid

meglome wrote: »

Any idea when this Frontline show will be available on the RTE site?

it's already there. I watched it a few hours ago. google "rte frontline" will take you straight there

victor11

hallelujajordan wrote: »

The biggest eyeopener for me in last nights 'display' by Jack O'Connor was that it was patently clear that the unions have not costed their 10-point-plan and have no idea whether or not it is feasible. The details were torn apart by those who understand economics and O'Connor was left to look like the fool that he is . . . The unions are a bloody disgrace. . . They played a significant role in creating this mess through social partnership and now they expect the taxpayer to protect an inefficient and overpaid public sector. . .

I hope people who considered taking to the streets on Friday can see through this crap and instead turn up for work and try to keep this economy alive.

Here here - Well said.... Sheer lunacy at event the thought of taking to the streets.... are the schools going to be closed as a result of 'sickness'.... WHo has to take a day off to mind the kids if that happens (with no pay and an earful from my boss!).... Get real JOC & et Al

ei.sdraob

Diarmuid wrote: »

it's already there. I watched it a few hours ago. google "rte frontline" will take you straight there

yes wasnt there earlier today it seems

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1059155

meglome

Diarmuid wrote: »

it's already there. I watched it a few hours ago. google "rte frontline" will take you straight there

Anyone else having problems getting all the clips to play? Overloaded maybe?

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes wasnt there earlier today it seems

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1059155

This is working.

ei.sdraob

to sum it up

unions want to:

* continue borrowing like crazy
* not cut welfare of PS
* increase income taxes
* double capital gains tax :eek:
* introduce property tax

:rolleyes: what parallel universe do they live in?

ei.sdraob

incredible the trade union head poncho is truly a moron for the lack of a better word

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1059155
14 and half mins in

-Pat = "this is basic sums Jack, this is not complicated! if you were to reduce public pay bill it either has to come out of peoples overtime, peoples allowances, peoples basic pay or some people have got to leave"

-Jack = "Well, you can achieve reductions, on what scale we don't know yet, in the actual pay bill, without cutting peoples pay"

:eek: :rolleyes:

-Pat = "pardon me for being flabbergasted by this statement!"

gandalf

Really all that can be said about the 10 point plan is this......

Pride Fighter

I'm a left leaning type of person but the performance by Jack O'Connor was truly terrible. The Unions have been in cahoots with FF and have milked the system over the past 10 years. The 'Leadership' in this country at government and Union level is abysmal. People like Cowen and O'Connor are not what is needed, we need a new approach.

irish_bob

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'm a left leaning type of person but the performance by Jack O'Connor was truly terrible. The Unions have been in cahoots with FF and have milked the system over the past 10 years. The 'Leadership' in this country at government and Union level is abysmal. People like Cowen and O'Connor are not what is needed, we need a new approach.

excellent post , leadership at political level has been as bad and worse than at union level but as bad as jack o connor is , the man is not a coward , our taoiseach on the other hand is so utterly spineless , i really dont know how he is able to carry around that keg under his jumper

Darragh29

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'm a left leaning type of person but the performance by Jack O'Connor was truly terrible. The Unions have been in cahoots with FF and have milked the system over the past 10 years. The 'Leadership' in this country at government and Union level is abysmal. People like Cowen and O'Connor are not what is needed, we need a new approach.

+1, a truly shocking performance.

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

"Well, you can achieve reductions, on what scale we don't know yet, in the actual pay bill, without cutting peoples pay"

this is correct insofar as core pay of public servants is only a proportion (albeit a large one) of the public pay bill

there are actions that can result in a reduction in the Public pay bill without cutting core pay, for example there are many allowances etc which could be cut and indeed numbers are being reduced which would also reduce the bill

however if this is an accurate quote

"We can make cuts to the pay bill without touching pay, allowances, overtime or numbers,"

it makes no sense

I'm a left leaning type of person but the performance by Jack O'Connor was truly terrible. The Unions have been in cahoots with FF and have milked the system over the past 10 years. The 'Leadership' in this country at government and Union level is abysmal.

this is a serious issue alright, the social partners (not just unions btw) were given far too much influence by getting a seat at the table from Bertie, the union leaders are now attempting to keep that influence and power in a changed world by showing their members they can "take action"

however, they are, imo, misrepresenting what their members are actually about. I think a lot of PS would be more open to cuts if other certain areas were playing ball (I think the banks particularly are causing consternation by awarding pay rises to staff and bonuses to already highly paid executives all on the back of public money being pumped into them )

unions want to:

* continue borrowing like crazy

dont agree

* not cut welfare of PS

what do you mean? welfare of public servants?

they want child beefit to be taxed rather than just a straight cut, but thats still a reduction for some

* increase income taxes

public servants would pay these higher increases too

* double capital gains tax

so, it was dramatically reduced in good times, why not increase it now?

* introduce property tax

so does the commission on taxation (and the government I'd say...look out for budget 2011)

swiss

JOC put in a shockingly poor performance. He dithered, he tried to refute patently obvious assertions, and when challenged merely reverted to stock union spiel about taxing the wealthy. I believe he said on one occasion 'what I'm saying very clearly' and then go on to make his position even more unclear.

If this is the standard of debate from the Union movement then they've done a huge disservice not only to it's members but to the country as a whole. Pat Kenny cut though his waffle quite effectively, though I feel in so doing probably revealed his own bias. I thought Moore McDowell and particularly Suzanne were very good. Suzanne stuck to the facts, and effectively spelled out what sort of tax regime on its own would deliver the required savings.

GalwayGunner

Are people honestly going to follow THIS eejit out on to the streets this Friday?!

On a side note though - really impressed with Pat Kenny ever since he left the Late Late Show - this definitely suits him a lot better - none of the show-business crap he had to pretend to like - just serious issues.

jammyhog

1st off of course there's gonna be a huge show on friday...joc looked like an idiot last nite, but most of the country thinks cowen, lenihan and co are idiots aswel... not even the unions believe they're gonna get the 10 pt plan considered, it's just a bargaining chip and a pr exercise to strenghten their position b4 the savage budget...by the way pat kenny fans, he looked just as bad 4 reacting the way he did, he obviously would rather those poor sods scraping by on the dole took the hit..

Psychedelic

GalwayGunner wrote: »

On a side note though - really impressed with Pat Kenny ever since he left the Late Late Show - this definitely suits him a lot better - none of the show-business crap he had to pretend to like - just serious issues.

He was an embarrasment to himself on the Late Late but he's has been excellent on the Frontline. Hard to believe it's the same guy at times.

yoshytoshy

jammyhog wrote: »

1st off of course there's gonna be a huge show on friday...joc looked like an idiot last nite, but most of the country thinks cowen, lenihan and co are idiots aswel... not even the unions believe they're gonna get the 10 pt plan considered, it's just a bargaining chip and a pr exercise to strenghten their position b4 the savage budget...by the way pat kenny fans, he looked just as bad 4 reacting the way he did, he obviously would rather those poor sods scraping by on the dole took the hit..

Pat kenny did himself proud ,by putting that twonk in his place. The show went on regardless of the comment ,where others might of squirmed.
Fair play to pat kenny ,never did like him on rte ,but at least he's trying to make a difference.

nesf

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'm a left leaning type of person but the performance by Jack O'Connor was truly terrible. The Unions have been in cahoots with FF and have milked the system over the past 10 years. The 'Leadership' in this country at government and Union level is abysmal. People like Cowen and O'Connor are not what is needed, we need a new approach.

See this is the thing for me, it's not an ideological battle, it's not right versus left. We'll disagree on how to do it but it should be clear to everyone that we can't just tax our way out of this and we can't borrow our way, we need to cut public spending.

Pride Fighter

nesf wrote: »

See this is the thing for me, it's not an ideological battle, it's not right versus left. We'll disagree on how to do it but it should be clear to everyone that we can't just tax our way out of this and we can't borrow our way, we need to cut public spending.

I'd agree with you. Cuts do have to be made. It is unrealistic to say otherwise. What gets on my nerves is people like hospital consultants and university presidents who have gotten huge pay increases while the recession has been in effect. It would be east to cut that but the government wont.

We need a broad approach to get out of this recession. Cuts only is not the way forward. Cuts, some new taxes and economic stimulus need to be all looked at. The Irish economy is performing well at the moment regarding our level of exports. An export driven economy based on making things and selling them is the way forward. We are in a good position to do this. What is needed is a pro-enterprise approach. Encourage businesses to expand and hire staff when doing well. People prefer to work. The problem with an export economy is the fair weather taxes of the past will no longer exist. Ireland can get out of the current mess. It just needs the leadership of decent politicians to do it.

nesf

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'd agree with you. Cuts do have to be made. It is unrealistic to say otherwise. What gets on my nerves is people like hospital consultants and university presidents who have gotten huge pay increases while the recession has been in effect. It would be east to cut that but the government wont.

We need a broad approach to get out of this recession. Cuts only is not the way forward. Cuts, some new taxes and economic stimulus need to be all looked at. The Irish economy is performing well at the moment regarding our level of exports. An export driven economy based on making things and selling them is the way forward. We are in a good position to do this. What is needed is a pro-enterprise approach. Encourage businesses to expand and hire staff when doing well. People prefer to work. The problem with an export economy is the fair weather taxes of the past will no longer exist. Ireland can get out of the current mess. It just needs the leadership of decent politicians to do it.

We can't afford to do economic stimulus. Cuts and new taxes most certainly do have to happen but until we get the Current Government expenditure under control we cannot afford to borrow more money to fund stimulus spending.

However, being a small open economy stimulus spending isn't as crucial as it is for larger more inward looking countries. As the EU recovers our export sector will see an uptick in sales. This will act as a kind of stimulus and boost the amount of money entering the economy without us having to borrow a penny to finance it.

Kama

nesf wrote:

See this is the thing for me, it's not an ideological battle, it's not right versus left.

Perhaps, but that's not the way it looks to many, and that doesn't seem to be the predominant rhetoric on either side. Fintans comment on '2 Irelands' sums this position up quite well, and also with the narrowing of the agenda to the stale ideological expectations and reflexes:

'Slash/defend the public sector/welfare'

Innovative new solutions to a change management...

We will, fairly unavoidably, have to cut jobs/pay/services, and increase tax, and borrow to boot. And to do this without substantial rioting, you'd need the process to at least appear fair, and not informed entirely by own ideological hue.

gurramok

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The Irish economy is performing well at the moment regarding our level of exports. An export driven economy based on making things and selling them is the way forward. We are in a good position to do this.

That's a bit disingenuous on the exports front. Its mostly been held up by pharma exports from a few MNC's whose contribution to employment from this growth is too small to have a significant inroad into unemployment.

nesf

Kama wrote: »

Perhaps, but that's not the way it looks to many, and that doesn't seem to be the predominant rhetoric on either side. Fintans comment on '2 Irelands' sums this position up quite well, and also with the narrowing of the agenda to the stale ideological expectations and reflexes:

'Slash/defend the public sector/welfare'

Innovative new solutions to a change management...

We will, fairly unavoidably, have to cut jobs/pay/services, and increase tax, and borrow to boot. And to do this without substantial rioting, you'd need the process to at least appear fair, and not informed entirely by own ideological hue.

The rhetoric is just that, rhetoric. Fintan might ramble on about 2 Irelands but he didn't any point last night make a contribution as to how we can get 4 billion in savings. If you can't bring suggestions to the table, honestly no one should be listening to you.

nesf

gurramok wrote: »

That's a bit disingenuous on the exports front. Its mostly been held up by pharma exports from a few MNC's whose contribution to employment from this growth is too small to have a significant inroad into unemployment.

EU recovery and US recovery will help our export sectors though on both MNC front and local business front. It won't turn around the economy but it will help somewhat.