Swine Flu - pros and cons

Just The One

It is a hard decision. To get the swine flu vaccination for your kids or not.


What are your opinions?

Khannie

What are the cons?

Just The One

Khannie wrote: »

What are the cons?

not properly tested. you are putting mercury into your child.

Concerns that it has not been sufficiently tested and that the effects, especially on children, are unknown.

Nevyn

Do you have anything to back up what you are saying, can you link to a report or fact sheet saying there is mercury ?

Sleipnir

Thaedydal wrote: »

Do you have anything to back up what you are saying, can you link to a report or fact sheet saying there is mercury ?

Many vaccines contain Thimerosal (Thiomersal in Europe) which is a mercury-based preservative.

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/pregnant_qa.htm

Sleipnir

fordprefect wrote: »

They will have to shoot me or jail me to take the shot.

They don't want to do either

Just The One

Thaedydal wrote: »

Do you have anything to back up what you are saying, can you link to a report or fact sheet saying there is mercury ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0904/1224253821294.html

THE NEW swine flu vaccine, when it becomes available here in coming weeks, will only be available with a mercury-based preservative included.

The same vaccine will be available in the US both with and without the substance – the mercury-free form for pregnant women and young children.




From the HSE site
http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/swineflu/vaccine/safety/

What is Thiomersal and is it safe?
Thiomersal in an ingredient in the Pandemrix Swine Flu vaccine and, yes, it is safe. It is used to stop vaccines becoming contaminated. It is a mercury based preservative which been used in medical products and vaccines for more than 60 years.

Nevyn

If you don't like the idea after talking with your dr then don't give it to your children it your call as a parent.

Just The One

Thaedydal wrote: »

If you don't like the idea after talking with your dr then don't give it to your children it your call as a parent.

well you know... that is very insightful... thanks for opinion

Nevyn

We are all just parents here with opinions.
My kids won't bet getting it as they are not babies and have no outstanding medical conditions which would put them in a high risk group.

Just The One

Thaedydal wrote: »

We are all just parents here with opinions.
My kids won't bet getting it as they are not babies and have no outstanding medical conditions which would put them in a high risk group.

ok. I am trying to see what the general consenus is regarding it...

Jip

fordprefect wrote: »

The best marketing ploy ever is to claim you will die without their product.

Take it if you must but take it with both eyes open and fully informed.

There's a difference between being informed and misinformed, where's the claims you'll die without it ?

Just The One

fordprefect wrote: »

Consider the fact that the vaccine is untested and the drug companies are immune from prosecution if you get sick as a result of taking it.

Its a money play by big pharma. The best marketing ploy ever is to claim you will die without their product.

Take it if you must but take it with both eyes open and fully informed.

What the hell..... they are immune from any liability? Why? How?

why are the HSE giving this out? How did they get a licence for it?

Khannie

Just The One wrote: »

What the hell..... they are immune from any liability? Why? How?

There are 6 billion people on this planet. It is not possible to create a product (ANY product) that will not kill one of those 6 billion. All you need do is look at peanut allergy as an example. Hell....some people are allergic to water.

Just The One wrote: »

why are the HSE giving this out? How did they get a licence for it?

In their eyes (and mine too to be honest) the benefits outweigh the risks if you're in a high risk group. If I were in a high risk group, I would be taking it.

Honestly, this thread is all a bit panic stations over nothing IMO.


OMG! IT'S A MERCURY INJECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY'RE TRYING TO KILL US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sleipnir

I only see panic from one poster. OP has concerns and is looking for other opinions on it also. There's nothing wrong with that.

MY GF is pregnant and due to give birth in 4 weeks so we are also trying to decide if it's worth it. No, they're not trying to kill us, but completely ignoring the risks, actual or anecdotal, is not prudent either.

Dades

I was at a 17 week scan with my missis today (expecting #2 ) and the swine flu jab was the question of the day.

They had documentation in the clinic (going private) regarding the jab and some of the myths. The "mercury" thing seems to be a misnomer - there is some form of mercury but not the toxic form that people are familiar with - rather a type that has been used for years in many pharmaceuticals.

When asked our consultant said she would "absolutely" get the vaccine if she was pregnant - and that as far as she was aware every health body was saying the same thing.

Of course she said it's completely optional, and that if you weren't comfortable with it, it's not cause for hysteria. My wife only works 3 days a week, doesn't deal with the public, doesn't use public transport and therefore is not high risk in terms of contracting it.

If it was me I'd get it - but I'm not going to insist anyone else does. But if things start going a bit "28 Days Later" this winter in terms of infection I'll drive her to the GP myself.

Lastly, the rumours I've heard about the vaccine in the last week have only strengthened my trust in the medical authorities. People really need to ignore the ridiculous Chinese Whispers heard from some girl in some office, who heard of some guy, whose wife knows a doctor... etc etc...

Just The One

Khannie wrote: »

There are 6 billion people on this planet. It is not possible to create a product (ANY product) that will not kill one of those 6 billion. All you need do is look at peanut allergy as an example. Hell....some people are allergic to water.



In their eyes (and mine too to be honest) the benefits outweigh the risks if you're in a high risk group. If I were in a high risk group, I would be taking it.

Honestly, this thread is all a bit panic stations over nothing IMO.


OMG! IT'S A MERCURY INJECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY'RE TRYING TO KILL US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't see any panic.... as Sleipnir said, I have concerns and I am looking for other opinions on it.

I have until wednesday to make up my mind

Biscuitman

I would take the shot if they would give it to me.

I suffer High Blood Pressure and Asthma(not severe).I would like to book a place in my local clinic but i am not sure will they give it to me at this time.

Anyone know whether i will get it if i book?

EDIT..Apologies.This might be the wrong forum i posted the question in.I just searched for vaccination and it took me directly to this thread.

Just The One

asmathic sufferers are in the high-risk group

Khannie

Ok, so maybe panic was a little bit strong, but the HSE site was quoted, highlighting the mercury part, yet the part where it says that there's nothing to worry about (literally just below it) was left out.....

Thiomersal is broken down in the body and one of the products is ethyl mercury. It appears that ethyl mercury is being confused with methyl mercury and therefore is presumed to have the same toxicity as methyl mercury despite it being a different compound.

There is no evidence that ethyl mercury in vaccines has any adverse effects.

Gives a slightly one sided slant on the issue, leaving that part out, right?

It seems likely that every vaccine you've ever had or have given to your children has had this stuff in it.

nesf

Just The One wrote: »

not properly tested. you are putting mercury into your child.

You are not. You are putting a very very small amount of a mercury compound in that that has never been shown to be toxic at that level. This isn't new it's been in vaccines for ages and there hasn't been any mercury poisoning effects seen ever.

Mercury in specific forms, in specific doses is bad for people. Under this dose or in other forms it isn't.

Edit:

Look it's exactly like this:

Paracetamol is very toxic above a certain dose. Give a high enough dose to your kid and you'll probably kill them. That doesn't mean that there's any danger of this toxic reaction doing this with a proper standard dose of Calpol given to a kid with a high fever. It's a non-issue. It's the same with the ethyl mercury in this vaccine, at the dose in the vaccine it's not going to cause mercury poisoning in the kid. If you gave your kid 30 or 40 doses of the vaccine it might damage them but that's not what you're doing similar to how you're not tipping back a whole bottle of Calpol down your toddler's throat when they have a fever.

nesf

Oh and if my kid hadn't already gotten swine flu I'd probably give him the vaccine. I'd take it myself and wouldn't have a problem with my pregnant wife taking it if we hadn't also gotten swine flu already.

Sleipnir

The hysteria has it's basis from the Andrew Wakefield controversy and the MMR vaccine. He linked it to autism even though previous and subsequent studies show no link whatsosever. MMR is safe yet many parents are choosing to not vaccinate their kids against MMR.

This vaccine is rather different to the MMR though in that it has not been tested extensively. The majority of tests that have been undertaken so far were by the pharmaceutical companies producing them. Which wouldn't instill me with confidence.

e.g. http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/news/QA/vteuH1N1qa.htm in the States only started with clinical trials in July. That's just 3 months ago.

Again, I'm not hysterical and I don't think this is a conspiracy to reduce the population of the planet. I just like to find out as much information as possible before making a decision. That's means not just believing what the government tells me (look where that got us)

nesf

Sleipnir wrote: »

The hysteria has it's basis from the Andrew Wakefield controversy and the MMR vaccine. He linked it to autism even though previous and subsequent studies show no link whatsosever. MMR is safe yet many parents are choosing to not vaccinate their kids against MMR.

This vaccine is rather different to the MMR though in that it has not been tested extensively. The majority of tests that have been undertaken so far were by the pharmaceutical companies producing them. Which wouldn't instill me with confidence.

e.g. http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/news/QA/vteuH1N1qa.htm in the States only started with clinical trials in July. That's just 3 months ago.

Again, I'm not hysterical and I don't think this is a conspiracy to reduce the population of the planet. I just like to find out as much information as possible before making a decision. That's means not just believing what the government tells me (look where that got us)

It's a flu vaccine. It's not a novel vaccine type. I'd understand your problems if it was a new type of vaccine for a new disease type. It's not though, we've been making flu vaccines for what, 50+ years? This one is no different in the way it's manufactured etc.

bonkey

Sleipnir wrote: »

This vaccine is rather different to the MMR though in that it has not been tested extensively.

By this standard, no flu vaccine is tested extensively.

They're not tested extensively because other then the strain of influencza used, they're effectively a carbon-copy of a previously-used influenza vaccine.

As for the OP having concerns, I would say one thing and one thing only....go and talk to a paediatrician. Preferably, go to whoever your child's regular paeds doctor is. Discuss your concerns with them. Thats partly what medical professionals are for...giving professional medical advice.

LegacyUser

Can this be changed to a poll?

Wont get vac
Will get vac
My partner is pregnant and we wont get vac
My partner is pregnant and we will (or already) go vac

FYI - My partner is pregnant and got the swine vac yesterday.
I asked several medical people inc a Cancer prof the VHI nurse line etc etc and they said the + out weigh the -

cbyrd

I'm 33 weeks pregnant and i got the vaccine today... no side effects and i think the MILD effects they are warning for such as tiredness headache and aches and pain for 24 hours or so, the alternative is i run the risk of getting swine flu... which would make me 4 times more likely to be hospitalised and run the risk of premature labour and/or severe pneumonia... the ethyl mercury in the pandemrix is not toxic.. and there are mercury and egg free vaccinations available. Calvepen is the mercury and egg free one. A phone call to your hse clinic or gp will confirm which brand they are using. I do think it is completely you're own choice whether you get it or not but if you are a high risk then on your head be it. Nobody is going to force you to get it but could you honestly say if there were complications from the flu (unlikely if you are not high risk) that you can stand by your decision, then you have nothing to worry about. I have 2 other children at school and i am in contact with the public all day everyday..so me and my unborn baby are covered as this one would not be able to recieve it for a couple of months.. so this way s/he is covered too .. my decision and i would never say you are a bad person for not getting it.

Just a quick note on the MMR, i didn't get it when i was a child but i did get measles mumps and rubella, i have a hearing problem from chronic earaches for 7 years of my childhood, the effects of a vaccine can be seen in the non visibility of the diseases and as a result people are not aware of what diseases can do, i could have been braindamaged or died as a result, same with polio, hep a b c mennengitis teattenus (sp)the list goes on, it will save lives there will be allergies to it but if the hse and government did nothing which would be worse???
just my humble opinion

cbyrd

oh and it's a free vaccination..

lazygal

I cannot believe the amount of selfish misinformation being peddled here.
I have a sister with an autoimmune disorder who is currently waiting to get the vaccine-getting swine flu would be like a death sentence for her. This thread is like the autism nonsense which still swirls around the MMR vaccine. It is safe and anyone who wants to watch their child being struck down by an illness like this...well i work with children as a preschool teacher and all the parents of children in my class have the good sense to protect their children. We've actually discussed not allowing non-vaccinated children into the class until the pandemic threat is lifted-I will not accomodate parents who decide their child does not deserve to be protected from a serious illness and puts other children at risk.
It is so selfish for a person to a) not protect their child and b) decide to affect the general population's health by not stopping further spread of the illness.
I'm sorry if this is a bit ranty, but nothing bothers me more than do-goody parents who think it's ok for them to opt out of programme which is good not only for children but the general population.
Get the vaccine, people.

Jip

fordprefect wrote: »

And please tell me how international drug companies aided by the murderous HSE .......

and this is the point you lost the debate and people stop taking everything else you say from here on in seriously.

tallaght01

A few points about the vaccine:

It's not big pharma playing us. Big pharma were approached to produce a vaccine by the governments of most western nations and the WHO on the advice of public health doctors and infectious diseases doctors. I hate the pharmaceutical industry more than most, and have a tendency to blame them on all the world's ills, but this is not the case in this instance.

The vaccine hasn't been tested on pregnant women. That's because there's nothing new in it. This vaccine isn't using anything that hasn't been used before. It's very like the normal yearly vaccine (in fact if swine flu had hit earlier it would have just been incorporated into the normal flu vaccine, saving all this hassle). They are doing a separate trial of the vaccine in pregnant women in the states. It's been on-going since the summer, and so far no nasty effects have been reported. Bear in mind, almost all adverse effects happen within 10 days of vaccination. A LOT of pregnant women have had this vaccine worldwide, and so far so good.
It has been tested on adults and kids though, with good results. Hard to see why it would have some odd effect on pregnant women, especially as we encourage them to have the normal flu vaccine.

The "mercury" in vaccines isn't mercury.It's a derivate, and it's metabolised by humans. It does not stay in your system.It's called thimerosal and has been used in vaccines for over 50 years. In that time, we would presumably have seen side effects. It sometimes gets blamed for autism. There are several studies showing this not to be the case. One really big one looked at kids in Denmark when they stopped using thimerosal in vaccines. You would expect autism rates to fall once they took it out, if it was causing autism. That didn't happen, In fact autism rates went up.

Flu (whether that is normal flu or swine flu) is bad for pregnant women, Swine flu particularly so. Here in oz, pregnant women were up to 10 times more likely to end up in intensive care with swine flu.

So, speak to your own doctors about it if you're worried. Don't listen to scaremongering on the net. Don't get sucked into talk about "The panic". The hype comes from the media, not from anyone else. The health authorities are treating this bug with the respect it deserves, but there's no panic.

Best advice is to take advice from people whose job it is to look after your health. So speak to your doctor. A lot of the sources of info on the web are from quacks, or from people with an agenda. So speak to people who genuinely have your health as their main concern. Good look, whatever you decide.

Jip

The vaccine is free.
And if you're seeing a talking chicken running around it sounds like you don't have issues with other forms of drug.

Jip

Ironic comment coming from you when you've been doing nothing but playing the man, assuming that everyone in the state is panicking but you're the only level headed person around because you know all the facts, nobody else does.

Jip

Look, you're not adding anything constructive to this discussion, there's a swine flu thread on the Conspiracy Theories forum, your posts are better suited over there and you'll find more like minded individuals.

nesf

Right, fordprefect, you're not to post in this thread again. This is a thread for parents to share opinions not a place to fearmonger or soapbox on the subject. If you want to discuss your worries please go to the Health Sciences forum and so such there.

Khannie

My wife's getting it done in the morning. I'll be glad when she's had it done.

patzer

Hi all

Just wanted to add to the discussion by providing access to some information on the European Medicines agency (EMEA) website.

http://www.emea.europa.eu/influenza/vaccines/celvapan/celvapan.html

http://www.emea.europa.eu/influenza/vaccines/pandemrix/pandemrix.html

It seems like many people have legitimate concerns, my fiance is 30 weeks pregnant and we are still unsure as to the next step to take regarding the vaccine.

Arming yourself with as much information as you can and not allowing teh pub talk to scare you into a decision one way or teh other is vital for your own peace of mind.

I do find it worrying that professionals seem to have very different opinions, on Moncrieef (Newstalk) during the week a HSE "expert" stated that the vaccine will not pass through the placenta but my GFs GP told her yesterday that they don't have any information relating to this.

Have a good look around and remember that we are in a much better position to find information now that we ever have been.

Please also note that most of the vaccine conisists of a carrier and various other ingredients that will be identical or at least very similar to the standard flu vaccine

Hope this is of some benefit

Pat

delly

So my wife and daughter got it done on Wednesday, both are asthma sufferers. That was that or so I thought. In the meantime I have heard of another GP recommending the non risk spouse should get it as well to keep the virus from entering the household. Another point of confusion relates to the HSE documentation stating that a second dose is required for full protection, but our GP said that it was only necessary for under 3's.

I have tried to contact the HSE on both points above, but have been on hold for quiet a bit and will try again later.

D rog

Also, I think I saw the WHO recommended only one dose too.

angeldaisy

My OH got the vaccine on tuesday as he is immuno-compromised and only had mild side effects, fluey symptoms overnight. Our son is in the high risk category so I will be getting him vaccinated, however I would rather / children who were at a greater risk of problems from swine flu got it first, so I will probably wait until the 2nd round of vaccinations and I will see then if I need to have it as well.
However if my son was healthy with no underlying medical problems, I don't think I would vaccinate him against it, after all I don't give him the flu vaccine?

Khannie

If money wasn't an issue I'd get the normal flu vaccine every year. I used to get it for free in my last job. It was a simple equation for them: Overall the money they saved from reduced absenteeism was more than the cost of the jabs for everyone.

Anyway, the only reason I'd consider giving it to someone that I wouldn't normally give a flu jab to is that it is worse than normal flu.

ashleey

3 of my 4 children aged 7 and under have had all of the swine flu symptoms all week. High night time temperatures of close to 40 degrees and bad cough. All the advice is let them sleep it off and stay off school and manage their temp with calpol and nurofen kids. Watch out if they recover then relapse with bronchitis requiring antibiotics. Watch lots of telly and after a week all are fine. There was no point going to the doctor as they are only testing those in the at risk group. If you are in that group discuss it with a doctor if you aren't it's just flu.

Chesty LaRue

Got my jab on Thurs morn (18wks pregnant). Arm felt a bit heavy afterwards but so far no side effects...The leaflet they gave me (i.e. HSE clinic) stated 2 jabs are required. I asked the doc on site and she said at the moment only one was needed but that could change over the coming weeks and they would contact me if this was the case..this may be a stupid question but how will they decide if a 2nd jab is needed...what cld happen over the coming weeks? Dont get me wrong I am pro-vaccine but just a bit confused with this....

Khannie

So my mrs got hers done. Her upper arm (where she got the jab) has been tender since. Other than that, nothing noticeable. Nice to know that she's immune now tbh.

Chesty: I haven't heard anything about a 2nd jab.

ebmma

Khannie wrote: »

So my mrs got hers done. Her upper arm (where she got the jab) has been tender since. Other than that, nothing noticeable. Nice to know that she's immune now tbh.

Chesty: I haven't heard anything about a 2nd jab.

takes 2 weeks or the full immunity to kick in...

I was asking about the booster shot and was told that it is something to do with Irish Medical Board wanting to give people 2 shots, but WHO says 1 is enough. So IMB will decide in the next week or so what they wanna do and people will be contacted for the booster shot.

Chesty LaRue

Checked out IMB website and it was recommended in report dated Sept 09 that 2 doses be given.
http://www.imb.ie/EN/Medicines/Pandemic-H1N1-2009.aspx
http://www.emea.europa.eu/pdfs/human/pandemicinfluenza/66680909en.pdf

Still confused...what are they waiting to see....people getting the swine flu after one jab therein determining a need for a 2nd jab?

ebmma

Chesty LaRue wrote: »

Checked out IMB website and it was recommended in report dated Sept 09 that 2 doses be given.
http://www.imb.ie/EN/Medicines/Pandemic-H1N1-2009.aspx
http://www.emea.europa.eu/pdfs/human/pandemicinfluenza/66680909en.pdf

Still confused...what are they waiting to see....people getting the swine flu after one jab therein determining a need for a 2nd jab?

I dunno being honest...Dr. in the HSE clinic made it sound like it's IMB just being contrary

cbyrd

fordprefect wrote: »

My apologies. I thought it said 'Swine Flu - Pros and Cons"

Seems to be just pros and propoganda. Cons are banned. Pardon me for breathing, borrow some of your air.

Over and out.

well i don't hear any useful pros or cons from what you've said in all your posts... it's been mostly how could people believe anything the hse government or anyone in charge has to say... i mean the gall of them to try to protect the nation from a form of illness that has the potential to kill the most vunerable in our society... so what if you don't want to get the jab then don't it's your decision.. but it's for everyone to make up they're own mind and to bring the likes of NAMA and such into a discussion that has nothing to do with health or well being is just a childish response to everyone disagreeing with you.
Yes you are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to batter everyone elses opinion with a big plank and get stroppy. i wonder what your views would be if swine flu hit the country and the high risk people started dying and no help was offered??? i'm sure you'd be ranting about how our 'murderous hse and government' stood by and did nothing... so it really doesn't matter what views are expressed here just so long as it's yours..but i for one have had the jab and other than a sore arm i've been fine. the con being my sore arm.. or the con of getting swine flu and potentially losing my baby or complications that i cannot forsee.. i've forgotten... how many people have died from getting the vaccination??? oh yes that would be none... swine flu itself?? is it 14?? that's enough of a pro vaccine arguement for me...

Khannie

fordprefect wrote: »

My apologies. I thought it said 'Swine Flu - Pros and Cons"

Seems to be just pros and propoganda. Cons are banned. Pardon me for breathing, borrow some of your air.

Over and out.

You were told not to post in the thread again. Take a break.

angeldelight

I just saw this reported on rte.ie - a pregnant lady with no underlying conditions has died from swine flu in Ireland. I thought it was relevant to this forum

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1112/swineflu.html

Two further deaths from swine flu
Thursday, 12 November 2009 16:23

Health officials have confirmed that a pregnant woman has died from human swine flu, and that separately, a child has also died from the virus, bringing the number of deaths from human swine flu in the Republic to 16.

Watch a live swine flu briefing

The pregnant woman was from the east of the country.
Advertisement

While the woman did not have an underlying illness she was in the at-risk category of pregnancy.

The Institute of Obstetricians has previously advised that pregnant women with the virus are four times more likely to develop serious complications or be hospitalised than non-pregnant women.

It has said that all pregnant women, from 14 weeks of pregnancy to 6 weeks after giving birth, should be vaccinated against the virus.

There are currently 191 people in hospital with the virus, with 22 in intensive care.

The number of people infected with the virus in the past week is slightly down on the figure of 30,000 for the previous week.

In the North, an adult with an underlying health condition has become the 11th person to die from the virus there.

Meanwhile, the Health Service Executive and Department of Health will give their weekly swine flu update at 4pm today

tammiet

I am 34 weeks pregnant and a single mum to my 4 year old asthmatic daughter. After hearing that latest news we are both getting the vaccine tomorrow and I am seriously considering keeping my daughter out of school for 2 weeks(swine flu in her school) and both staying indoors until immune. Am I over reacting or would anyone do the same???