Junior Cert could be abolished

segaBOY · 01-11-2009 5:04pm #1

Apparetly it has been proposed that the Junior Cert could be abolished saving up to €30 million a year.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1101/asti.html

The second-level teachers' union, the ASTI, has criticised speculation that the Junior Certificate examination could be abolished.

Today's Sunday Tribune newspaper suggests that the proposal, which it says would save the Government up to €30 million annually, has already been discussed by the Cabinet.

It reports that the Government is examining the viability of replacing the exam with a new system of continuous assessment.

ASTI General Secretary John White said any decision to abolish the Junior Cert as a cost-cutting exercise would be counter-productive.

I think it's a step too far but will probably never make it to the table.

That_Guy · 01-11-2009 5:07pm

Junior Cert means nothing.

SoupyNorman · 01-11-2009 5:09pm

As I recall it mainly consisted of times tables and coloring in.

Rhyme · 01-11-2009 5:09pm

An exam based entirely on regurgitating information drilled into you for years and that once regurgitated, might never be used again?

Continuous assessment, yes please.

segaBOY · 01-11-2009 5:09pm

That_Guy wrote: »

Junior Cert means nothing.

Not true. It is good as a baseline when picking applicants for trades etc. Also the likes of the UK have the GCSE system, it would be stupid to damage our education image internationaly by getting rid of it imo.

That_Guy · 01-11-2009 5:09pm

SoupyNorman wrote: »

As I recall it mainly consisted of times tables and coloring in.

C.S.P.E was great.

pikachucheeks · 01-11-2009 5:10pm

To be honest, it's a bit ridiculous, getting rid of a state examination, on the basis that it'll save money.

The Junior Cert is preparation for the Leaving Cert and for a certain amount of people, it's the only educational qualification they'll ever get / want to get.
What will they do if the JC was abolished?

SoupyNorman · 01-11-2009 5:12pm

If they modify the JC, first on the list should be taking Religion off it (it's on there right?)

segaBOY · 01-11-2009 5:12pm

That_Guy wrote: »

C.S.P.E was great.

Was thinking the same :P

Like everything there is room for improvement, lets not get into it but certainly the likes of CSPE could be changed. I think more civic pride should be involved in the CSPE course. And making CSPE mandatory along with Maths, English and Irish was a joke imo.

But all in all I don't think abolishing the JC is a good idea for our overall education as a nation.

MagicMarker · 01-11-2009 5:13pm

I never get why we have an end of year examination.

Both the junior and leaving cert should be abolished. Kids should be marked on an ongoing basis throughout the year based on performance, attendance etc.

El Weirdo · 01-11-2009 5:15pm

SoupyNorman wrote: »

As I recall it mainly consisted of times tables and coloring in.

At the expense of English, I see.;)

segaBOY · 01-11-2009 5:15pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

I never get why we have an end of year examination.

Both the junior and leaving cert should be abolished. Kids should be marked on an ongoing basis throughout the year based on performance, attendance etc.

Because it's the most uniform and best way imo. Continuous assesment would mean great variance in marking methods. Kids in Cork may be getting better marks than Kids in Donegal due to the way the teachers mark continuously.

A set exam with a rigid marking scheme is the fairest way imo.

That_Guy · 01-11-2009 5:15pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

I never get why we have an end of year examination.

Both the junior and leaving cert should be abolished. Kids should be marked on an ongoing basis throughout the year based on performance, attendance etc.

It's a much better idea. Someone could be the most intelligent person in their year and have a terrible day in one of the exams.

CA should be the way to go. Plus it gets people in the mindset of college then and how assignments etc work.

segaBOY · 01-11-2009 5:17pm

That_Guy wrote: »

CA should be the way to go. Plus it gets people in the mindset of college then and how assignments etc work.

CA only accounted for about 5-10% of my overall college mark. Final year exams were where the main bulk was given.

CA in school would have actually been retrograde in preparing me for college education.

SoupyNorman · 01-11-2009 5:17pm

El Weirdo wrote: »

At the expense of English, I see.;)

Care to explain?

segaBOY · 01-11-2009 5:18pm

SoupyNorman wrote: »

Care to explain?

He's just nit picking you yank :P

Nodin · 01-11-2009 5:20pm

segaBOY wrote: »

Apparetly it has been proposed that the Junior Cert could be abolished saving up to €30 million a year.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1101/asti.html

I think it's a step too far but will probably never make it to the table.

There'd have to be a large amount of retraining, presumably, and possibly a remodelling of the curriculum. As nothing is free, certainly in the short term such expenses might outweigh the savings.

SoupyNorman · 01-11-2009 5:21pm

segaBOY wrote: »

He's just nit picking you yank :P

Oh I get that, I just want to know why for the nit-picking was...I R DUMB

Recon · 01-11-2009 5:21pm

SoupyNorman wrote: »

Care to explain?

you spelt colouring wrong...

Herbal Deity · 01-11-2009 5:23pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

I never get why we have an end of year examination.

Both the junior and leaving cert should be abolished. Kids should be marked on an ongoing basis throughout the year based on performance, attendance etc.

Why?

I've yet to hear a good argument for continuous assessment over an end of year exam.

partyatmygaff · 01-11-2009 5:23pm

Recon wrote: »

you spelt colouring wrong...

You forgot to use capital letters.

SoupyNorman · 01-11-2009 5:24pm

segaBOY wrote: »

He's just nit picking you yank :P

Recon wrote: »

you spelt colouring wrong...

bah, what a nazi. Nazis r bastards. :rolleyes:

Next I'll be shot for Center.

Stones85 · 01-11-2009 5:25pm

pikachucheeks wrote: »

To be honest, it's a bit ridiculous, getting rid of a state examination, on the basis that it'll save money.

The Junior Cert is preparation for the Leaving Cert and for a certain amount of people, it's the only educational qualification they'll ever get / want to get.
What will they do if the JC was abolished?

Really disagree

Why the hell did I have to do christmas and summer exams every year for 5 years?

Why did I do mock exams for the leaving? How much prep did I need ffs??

I still think junior cert was pointless..... all the subjects changed after it so it didn't matter a ****e how I did.

Continual assesment is the only sensible way to go.

That_Guy · 01-11-2009 5:26pm

SoupyNorman wrote: »

bah, what a nazi. Nazis r bastards. :rolleyes:

Next I'll be shot for Center.

And jewelry.

El Weirdo · 01-11-2009 5:26pm

SoupyNorman wrote: »

bah, what a nazi. Nazis r bastards. :rolleyes:

Next I'll be shot for Center.

*Bang*

Euro_Kraut · 01-11-2009 5:28pm

Before we get too carried away they is no mention of abolishing the Junior Cert per say, rather changing the way in which it is asses i.e. by continuous assessment rather than final exam. Its hard to imagine a continuous assessment model that would have no type of final exam though. Its likely too that the teachers will have to grade students. I can't see the Union buying into that right now.

But really, major changes to our education system should not be made for the sake of saving money. If this is a good idea then let it be a good idea. The fact the we might have an extra 30million to pay TDs expenses shouldn't really come into it.

jumpguy · 01-11-2009 5:30pm

Terrible idea, and indeed counter-productive. We'd be one of the few countries in the world without a baseline lower-exam. As pikachucheeks said, the Junior Cert is the only qualification many people want or need. It's also an important dry-run up to the Leaving Cert, and is considered in UCAS applications. Continuous assessment is open to many flaws, and I can see alot of rubber-stamping going on.

There's alot that could be done to make the exam more efficient. They could cut down in medical cards (and fraud) and they'd have more people paying the 103 Euro for the exam. They could get rid of the lads being paid 300/400 Euro for serving tea in the middle on an exam for 2 weeks (but not before I get paid for doing it). They could reduce superintendents pay a tad.

TBH, the state examinations are the few things that run correctly in the country, mainly thanks to the SEC.

phasers · 01-11-2009 5:31pm

The Junior cert is a waste of time tbh

Mars Bar · 01-11-2009 5:33pm

segaBOY wrote: »

CA only accounted for about 5-10% of my overall college mark. Final year exams were where the main bulk was given.

CA in school would have actually been retrograde in preparing me for college education.

Where as in my course CA can account for 60% with 20% for Christmas and 20% for summer in some of some of my modules. No harm in having some form of CA...

SoupyNorman · 01-11-2009 5:34pm

phasers wrote: »

The Junior cert is a waste of time tbh

Ohhh, controversial.

phasers · 01-11-2009 5:35pm

SoupyNorman wrote: »

Ohhh, controversial.

Well it is!

UppThaDubs · 01-11-2009 5:37pm

Get rid of it this year...I don't wanna do BIG exams..

phasers · 01-11-2009 5:38pm

UppThaDubs wrote: »

Get rid of it this year...I don't wanna do BIG exams..

LOL!

enniscorthy · 01-11-2009 5:42pm

junior cert hehehe good1 who needs it i never did like most of my gen never did it was either a case of stay in school stay poor or leave school be a bit less poor heheheh oh well look at me now can read write spell do my sums thats all you need hey what u think hey listen maybe with my qualifications ill get a job teachin p.e. someday hahahahahah

jumpguy · 01-11-2009 5:42pm

There has to be a final exam, even with continuous assessment. Otherwise, the entire course will be examined in small chunks, making it way easier, and once one chunk is gone, it can be forgotten. A better way than continuous assessment must be found

FruitLover · 01-11-2009 5:43pm

enniscorthy wrote: »

junior cert hehehe good1 who needs it i never did like most of my gen never did it was either a case of stay in school stay poor or leave school be a bit less poor heheheh oh well look at me now can read write spell do my sums thats all you need hey what u think hey listen maybe with my qualifications ill get a job teachin p.e. someday hahahahahah

What?

In English, please...

enniscorthy · 01-11-2009 5:45pm

FruitLover wrote: »

What?

In English, please...

heheheheheheheheheheheheh in english hahahahahahahahahahah good1 mate :P:P

phasers · 01-11-2009 5:45pm

FruitLover wrote: »

What?

In English, please...

D.E.F.O need it in english mate heheheh

jumpguy · 01-11-2009 5:49pm

Enniscorthy: Translated

The Junior Cert, haha, good one! Who needs it? I never did it. Most of my generation never did it. It was either a case of stay in school and stay poor or leave school and be a bit less poor! Oh well look at me now, I can read, write, spell and do my sums. Thats all you need! Hey, what do you think, maybe with my qualifications I'll get a job teaching PE one day!

enniscorthy · 01-11-2009 5:50pm

jumpguy wrote: »

Enniscorthy: Translated

The Junior Cert, haha, good one! Who needs it? I never did it. Most of my generation never did it. It was either a case of stay in school and stay poor or leave school and be a bit less poor! Oh well look at me now, I can read, write, spell and do my sums. Thats all you need! Hey, what do you think, maybe with my qualifications I'll get a job teaching PE one day!

_________:D:D:D_________
D.E.F.O.
_________:P:P:P_________

FruitLover · 01-11-2009 5:50pm

Herbal Deity wrote: »

I've yet to hear a good argument for continuous assessment over an end of year exam.

While I wouldn't personally have been the biggest fan of CA (I was a lazy bollix, but smart enough to make up for it come exam time

), I don't like the eggs-in-one-basket situation the LC and JC create. Having a student's academic future decided in a couple of hours per subject, over a couple of weeks creates an environment of stress, and IMO is far from an optimal testing method.

Two state exams per year from 3rd year on would be better IMO, with final LC scores derived from at least the final two rounds (but would of course raise costs and require complicated syllabus coordination, negating the point that sparked this discussion).

segaBOY · 01-11-2009 5:52pm

enniscorthy wrote: »

junior cert hehehe good1 who needs it i never did like most of my gen never did it was either a case of stay in school stay poor or leave school be a bit less poor heheheh oh well look at me now can read write spell do my sums thats all you need hey what u think hey listen maybe with my qualifications ill get a job teachin p.e. someday hahahahahah

And now you're using boards (good thing or bad???)

loobylou · 01-11-2009 6:04pm

enniscorthy wrote: »

_________:D:D:D_________
D.E.F.O.
_________:P:P:P_________

Nope, Enniscorthy was better:p:p:p

loobylou · 01-11-2009 6:05pm

Sorry,
Fail, logging off now.

redout · 01-11-2009 6:06pm

The Junior has some relevance. It is required to undertake a trade - sparks, plumber, carpenter etc.

tim0ney · 01-11-2009 6:07pm

Imagine going in to do the leaving cert with zero experience of doing a "big" exam [mocks don't really count now do they?]. It's invaluable in that it forces you to learn HOW to study for something, and in letting you discover mistakes etc you could have made in your exam preparation that you wouldn't repeat for the leaving cert. Plus is helps you get to grips with the pressure that goes hand-in-hand with the exams. Fair enough, bring in CA too, if that's your bag, but like it or not, the JC gives you skills that you can use later on. If you're arsed.

Stones85 · 01-11-2009 6:10pm

tim0ney wrote: »

Imagine going in to do the leaving cert with zero experience of doing a "big" exam [mocks don't really count now do they?]. It's invaluable in that it forces you to learn HOW to study for something, and in letting you discover mistakes etc you could have made in your exam preparation that you wouldn't repeat for the leaving cert. Plus is helps you get to grips with the pressure that goes hand-in-hand with the exams. Fair enough, bring in CA too, if that's your bag, but like it or not, the JC gives you skills that you can use later on. If you're arsed.

Jesus I thought the Christmas and Summer exams would be enough practice over 5/6 years... especially the summer ones

phasers · 01-11-2009 6:14pm

Stones85 wrote: »

Jesus I thought the Christmas and Summer exams would be enough practice over 5/6 years... especially the summer ones

This. My Christmas/Summer exams were more than enough experience, especially as teachers would give us actual exam questions.

Naikon · 01-11-2009 6:14pm

Scrap it tbh. Friggen waste of money.
Christmas exams should be enough.

Even the Leaving cert is dwindling in my mind as a useless pile
of cack since leaving shool. I can remember basically **** all now.

Post leaving cert education be it college or FAS, or other training
schemes are far more valid in the long term. Except for Medicine;)

tim0ney · 01-11-2009 6:25pm

Christmas exams only account for three months learning though. For the JC and LC you have to learn two year's worth of material. And neither christmas exams nor summer exams can give you the experience of learning that volume of stuff, and being able to put it down on the exam paper. Not a chance. FFS, there has to be another way to cut €30 million, that doesn't negatively effect the education of all the young 'uns in the country [though they'd probably love it if it went - I know I would have, but in hindsight I can see the good it did me].

Stones85 · 01-11-2009 6:27pm

tim0ney wrote: »

Christmas exams only account for three months learning though. For the JC and LC you have to learn two year's worth of material. And neither christmas exams nor summer exams can give you the experience of learning that volume of stuff, and being able to put it down on the exam paper. Not a chance. FFS, there has to be another way to cut €30 million, that doesn't negatively effect the education of all the young 'uns in the country [though they'd probably love it if it went - I know I would have, but in hindsight I can see the good it did me].

With hindsight I saw it as a load of hype and unjustified pressure.

Utterly useless!

Junior Cert could be abolished

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