Atheists, what is your vision for the future?

lmaopml

I have been reading up on some of the threads in your forum. I am a Christian, just to let you know

I was just wondering what kind of future society you would like to see in Ireland? Is there a common goal or point, other than lack of belief ? Would it be one without religion completely, or would it be a society where we could self define freely and without bias?

I would be interested to see what each of you think.

Thank you.

Dinner

Ultimately I'd love a world where religion has died out naturally, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

But for starters I'd be satisfied with the removal of religion from schools and the Constitution. The church and religion in general should also be removed from the pedestal it has been placed on and treated more like a business. It shouldn't automatically be entitled to some sort of respect and instead more like a political allegiance where it is ok to question and debate it without being accused of being intolerant.

Naz_st

A utopia of immorality, full of shameless heathens, with rampant deviancy and complete slave-like worship of key atheist figures. It's part of our secret atheist code.

Seriously though - a society where religion in general isn't afforded a special status with respect to schools (in particular), the constitution (and subsequent laws) and basic day-to-day operations of society (contraception & sex education, alcohol laws on good friday, the angelus etc) would be a good start.

Teferi

Have you ever seen that South Park episode where Cartman goes into the future?

Like that. With badgers.

robindch

Personally, I'd wouldn't like faith -- in the sense of mutual trust -- to disappear, on the contrary, I think it's central to our ability as a society to function. But, that said, I certainly would like to see a lack of superstition in the country. Like, in all fairness, I don't really think we're projecting the right image of the country when thousands arrive to worship a small tree-stump in Limerick, or fail to laugh out loud when some chap tells them that a dead virgin from Palestine is going to show up in West Ireland with a temper on her (I'd imagine that being dead for 2,000 years would give anyone a headache). Frankly, it makes the country look silly.

It would also be nice to see people develop their own co-operative opinions about who is good and bad, rather than outsourcing their opinions to moral absolutists with entirely predictable results.

I'd also like to see the schools of this country put education first, rather than having 92% them controlled by an organization which -- to say the very least -- has failed in its duty of care of children. Quite apart from the state-sanctioned system of religious apartheid that applies to the kids of people who are not members of the 'correct' religious organization.

Finally, while I couldn't care a jot whether or not people think there's a god up there, I certainly would like to see an end to people expecting that claiming they believe this entitles them and their views to automatic respect.

Zillah

I posted quite a rant on this once, I'll see if I can dig it up later.

lmaopml

Some really interesting replies so far!

I agree we (in Ireland) have a bitter/sweet history with the Church and Religion..

lugha

lmaopml wrote: »

I have been reading up on some of the threads in your forum. I am a Christian, just to let you know

I was just wondering what kind of future society you would like to see in Ireland? Is there a common goal or point, other than lack of belief ? Would it be one without religion completely, or would it be a society where we could self define freely and without bias?

I would be interested to see what each of you think.

Thank you.

I don't really have a game plan TBH with respect to religion. I am curious why quite intelligent and well read and educated people can believe it but I have no evangelical zeal to put a stop to it. I regard a lot of the stuff like Christenings & first communion and the like to be cultural artifacts which quite likely will be retained or morph into something similar if religions is ever given the heave ho. I have no great urge to bring to an end the tyranny of the Angelus dongs or the like, indeed I get rather irked when public Christmas cribs have to be packed up to avoid giving offense (!). In short, I don't much care. Perhaps I should, but I don't.

robindch

lmaopml wrote: »

I agree we (in Ireland) have a bitter/sweet history with the Church and Religion..

That has to be the understatement of the century :pac:

lmaopml

robindch wrote: »

That has to be the understatement of the century :pac:

Why in your opinion is it?

dvpower

lmaopml wrote: »

I was just wondering what kind of future society you would like to see in Ireland? Is there a common goal or point, other than lack of belief ? Would it be one without religion completely, or would it be a society where we could self define freely and without bias?

It would be one without religion completely, but failing that, one where religion has the same status as any other set of lifestyle choices.

Xluna

lmaopml wrote: »

I have been reading up on some of the threads in your forum. I am a Christian, just to let you know

I was just wondering what kind of future society you would like to see in Ireland? Is there a common goal or point, other than lack of belief ? Would it be one without religion completely, or would it be a society where we could self define freely and without bias?

I would be interested to see what each of you think.

Thank you.

Good question. I would want everyone to have the right to believe and disbelieve but also for others to have the chance to challenge their beliefs,or lack of beliefs.

Church and state should be totally serperated,no Church interference in politics. All schools should be secular. Full rights for LGBT people and a repeal of the blasphemy law.

Also, I would like to see a less greedy,less corrupt Ireland and harsher punishment for rapists and murderers.

Rob Mc

lmaopml wrote: »

Some really interesting replies so far!

I agree we (in Ireland) have a bitter/sweet history with the Church and Religion..

Bitter sweet you say? lol, all religion has brought to this country is shame and war.

Personally, for the future I would like to see religion as a personal thing, people should keep it too themselves, I don't want to see threads with people saying " God is real, and all you athiests are gonna burn in hell", I have my beliefs and you have yours. Religion should have no place in law, education or politics, it should be personal.

NothingMan

Certainly for a complete church state seperation. A church should be given the same rights as other charities for their actual charity work but other than that should be given no preferencial treatment.

Other than that, I have no major issues with our country. I know there are lots of issues with the government but there always will be, hopefully we will pull through the recession as soon as possible and everyone can all get back to a balanced life.

Daftendirekt

I'd pretty much like to see religion given the same status as any other personal opinion. That's all.

Not too bothered about whether it dies out completely or not.

Dades

Daftendirekt wrote: »

I'd pretty much like to see religion given the same status as any other personal opinion.

It is by us!

Just not the State.

Daftendirekt

Dades wrote: »

It is by us!

Just not the State.

And that's why I spend precious time trawling through this forum.

That, and to see what witticisms people can come up with about Joe Coleman and his apparitions .

lmaopml

Thankyou, please keep them coming.

So a seperation of state and Church. No God, in the Constitution or Education or Politics. The Angelus not played at miday and six in the evening. People to keep their beliefs to themselves. The Church to be given a status of a charitible and or political institution. ( I don't really get that one...lol...sorry )

Which is most important to you?

I'm reading 'Education' mentioned a lot? Yes? and freedom of speech?

I understand and empathize with the 'education' element for sure. People should have more choices. I also believe in freedom of speech, ( but for both Atheists and those of faith, be they Protestant, Catholic, Muslim etc.

A secular state may be a while off, and God taken out of the Constitution, as it means a referenda in order to change the constitution and majority always rule that one. Your just going to have to put up with that one I'm afraid....that's democracy for ya and we could all agree that's good?

So, is there a reason why people who have faith annoy you so much? are they in your face a lot trying to convert you, or just on boards? I notice a lot of things you would like to see in the future have to do with Religion, but very little else, except for one lady/man who wanted people to be less greedy and rapists to get longer sentences.

Is there a secular society that you admire and aspire to?

Ickle Magoo

I admire any society that doesn't discriminate against children based on religion, tbh...and the idea that discrimination for as long as it is assumed to be supported by the majority is justified, is just pretty screwy. :eek:

lmaopml

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I admire any society that doesn't discriminate against children based on religion, tbh...and the idea that discrimination for as long as it is assumed to be supported by the majority is justified, is just pretty screwy. :eek:

What society is it that you admire?

Ickle Magoo

Why? It sounds like a lovely side step.

I love lots of different societies for lots of different reasons - but I live in Irish society & it is the Irish education system that discriminates against my children so those are the prejudices I look towards changing. What does it matter what other societies I hold in esteem? Are you looking for yet more justification of discrimination? Surely not.

lmaopml

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Why? It sounds like a lovely side step.

I love lots of different societies for lots of different reasons - but I live in Irish society & it is the Irish education system that discriminates against my children so those are the prejudices I look towards changing. What does it matter what other societies I hold in esteem? Are you looking for yet more justification of discrimination? Surely not.

It certainly is not a sidestep! I would love to know your Utopia...As a person of 'faith' I seem to remember throughout history being descriminated against? Do you disagree? Are we not one and the same? or are you special?

Ickle Magoo

So because discrimination has happened in the past that's a valid reason for it to continue today - eh, okay then. Let's call back in segregation and white supremacy.

Maybe I'm just terribly naive but I think an Irish society that does not allow (promote?) discrimination towards five year olds is not so outlandish an idea...not quite utopia just bloody obvious.

lmaopml

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

So because discrimination has happened in the past that's a valid reason for it to continue today - eh, okay then. Let's call back in segregation and white supremacy.

Maybe I'm just terribly naive but I think an Irish society that does not allow (promote?) discrimination towards five year olds is not so outlandish an idea...not quite utopia just bloody obvious.

No need for amateur dramatics! pmsl

I agree you should have your free choice! In fact, I would fight for you to have your 'place' within society....Your ET schools etc. ....so cool! No problem, either you want to be a part of my faith or you don't, entirely up to you...

..I just hate being pigeon holed by you! Do you like being pigeon holed, as a 'faith' onto yourselves? with no actual direction, just a hatred of me and people like me??? I've read your forum, and lurked a good while and some of ye aint that silly......neither are the faithful? But, you know **** happens and 'democracy' is pretty cool....so why don't you just fight for your rights instead of giving out about us..lol....??? We've had to fight for ours? That's the way of the material world we love so much?

I amn't the best Christian ever...lol...

Ickle Magoo

You ask for opinions then claim to be pigeon-holed by them and state I enjoy the amateur dramatics, lol & rotfl right back at ya...and I'm so touched you would fight for my sort to have my (in inverted commas) place in society. I hate to be the one to break it to you, I already have a place in society. That place funded an ET school, built a local playground, helped adult illiteracy, raises two children and set up a toddler coffee morning. Don't kid yourself for a second that my lack of religion makes me some kind of pariah in modern Ireland - I assure you, it's quite the opposite.

I don't HATE anyone or anything, ironically. I'm married to an Irishman & I live in Ireland. Our children are wantonly discriminated against here & no-one in our family & friends is happy with that. If that's something that you cannot tally with the religion you hold dear, that is a separate issue to my views on your religion - try not to mix the two. Did you really think the only thing folks do to encourage this country towards secular education is to post on boards - really?11!

NB It's not my forum. Maybe someone shouting about "your forum" & who thinks I'm "giving out about us" shouldn't consider pigeon-holing offensive? :cool:

Sam Vimes

lmaopml wrote: »

so why don't you just fight for your rights instead of giving out about us..lol....???

Because catholics are the ones denying us our rights

lmaopml wrote: »

We've had to fight for ours? That's the way of the material world we love so much?

So the way of the material world is that that Irish law discriminates against everyone that's not a member of your religion and your position on this injustice is that catholics shouldn't have to do anything and we should have to fight to take the rights you're denying us. Fair enough. And you wonder why we "give out about you".......

lmaopml

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

You ask for opinions then claim to be pigeon-holed by them and state I enjoy the amateur dramatics, lol & rotfl right back at ya...and I'm so touched you would fight for my sort to have my (in inverted commas) place in society. I hate to be the one to break it to you, I already have a place in society. That place funded an ET school, built a local playground, helped adult illiteracy, raises two children and set up a toddler coffee morning. Don't kid yourself for a second that my lack of religion makes me some kind of pariah in modern Ireland - I assure you, it's quite the opposite.

I never said once you were a pariah ? Also, good on you if your out actually doing something about your childrens education and seeing that it reflects your own ideals. Do'ers get things done, I like them.

I'm sorry if I have offended you by asking your opinion? I have no motive except understanding....I meant no harm by using the word 'place' in society, I would use the same phrase refering to myself and my own ideals. I didn't realise it would cause upset.

lmaopml

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't HATE anyone or anything, ironically. I'm married to an Irishman & I live in Ireland. Our children are wantonly discriminated against here & no-one in our family & friends is happy with that. If that's something that you cannot tally with the religion you hold dear, that is a separate issue to my views on your religion - try not to mix the two. Did you really think the only thing folks do to encourage this country towards secular education is to post on boards - really?11!

NB It's not my forum. Maybe someone shouting about "your forum" & who thinks I'm "giving out about us" shouldn't consider pigeon-holing offensive? :cool:

Did I shout? Why so antsy?

I am sorry if you feel descriminated against in Ireland. Is it Catholics that are descriminating against your children? What do they do?

lmaopml

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Because catholics are the ones denying us our rights



So the way of the material world is that that Irish law discriminates against everyone that's not a member of your religion and your position on this injustice is that catholics shouldn't have to do anything and we should have to fight to take the rights you're denying us. Fair enough. And you wonder why we "give out about you".......

How does Irish Law descriminate against you? I, as a christian would not deny you anything. I don't do anything on anybody, I just pretty much go about my life basically, in my own home country! We weren't even allowed to be educated at all here not so long ago? So 'downtrodden' is something we would understand.... I would expect if I lived somewhere else than perhaps they would have their own culture and perhaps faith too??...because people are different all over the globe. Our society is getting more diverse, and it's a good thing, the state should get it's finger out and start accomodating our more multi cultural society....but going overboard PC is never a good idea either.

Also, I would have no problem with your rights, so long as I would still have mine too? and 'all' schools being state run secular doesn't fit with my own visions for the future....So, what to do about that one

I understand the lack of primary schools is frustrating, and would like to see this change. It's a residue of our state's (short) history....It will change, but not overnight, or without some effort.

The Gov'mint are broke now though.....sadly! Maybe next 'boom' people will march together for their rights..

Max Power1

lmaopml wrote: »

How does Irish Law descriminate against you? I, as a christian would not deny you anything. I don't do anything on anybody.

Irelands constitution starts off with a prayer ffs. This blasphemy law, for one, is an example of magic's religion's ridiculous place of "pride" in the irish legal system. A lot of our laws hark back to common law inherited from england which were written by, yes youve guessed it, bishops! So they obviously are written to a religious bias.

Add to that the situation where an organisation riddled with paedophiles (who when guilty dont get convicted because they are priests, they get moved to a new parish) are responsible for our childrens eduacation and welfare, the mind boggles.

Also, I would have no problem with your rights, so long as I would still have mine too? and 'all' schools being state run secular doesn't fit with my own visions for the future....So, what to do about that one

So, like most religious, you want to keep up your numbers by brainwashing kids at 4-5 years old without presenting a logical alternative? Religion should have nothing to do with education.

Ickle Magoo

lmaopml wrote: »

Did I shout? Why so antsy?

I am sorry if you feel descriminated against in Ireland. Is it Catholics that are descriminating against your children? What do they do?

I'm not antsy.

I don't just "feel" discriminated against in Ireland, my children ARE discriminated against in Ireland, are you not getting that? Our local schools can & do legally discriminate and refuse places to children without a baptismal cert. Maybe it's just semantics but I wouldn't consider that "Catholics" are discriminating but certainly Catholicism is being allowed to discriminate through a lack of secular legislation and certain Catholics support that discrimination.

lmaopml

Max Power1 wrote: »

Irelands constitution starts off with a prayer ffs. This blasphemy law, for one, is an example of magic's religion's ridiculous place of "pride" in the irish legal system. A lot of our laws hark back to common law inherited from england which were written by, yes youve guessed it, bishops! So they obviously are written to a religious bias.

Add to that the situation where an organisation riddled with paedophiles (who when guilty dont get convicted because they are priests, they get moved to a new parish) are responsible for our childrens eduacation and welfare, the mind boggles.


So, like most religious, you want to keep up your numbers by brainwashing kids at 4-5 years old without presenting a logical alternative? Religion should have nothing to do with education.

So, the 'prayer' is descriminating against you? Sure isn't the constitution a reflection of the common ideals of the people? Why have you got a problem with this? It's history, and it needs to change inline with demand.....It's hardly ruining your life? What laws, specifically, are descriminating against you? I think the blasphemy law is ott myself, but apart from that?

It is disgusting that those priests got away with using their positions of power to manipulate and do wrong on our children...and as a Christian I offer albeit too little, my unreserved apology for the wrong doings of these so called priests.......It's strange how this happened to a huge extent in Ireland as a Catholic country and not other, mostly Catholic countries? It was allowed happen unfortunately by the state and by the authorities at the time. A disgusting and shameful period indeed! All peadophiles aren't Catholic though - and they're still out there right now....they can be atheist or religious....and that is the truth.

My children will be brought up within their faith, yes. It's part and parcel of having a 'faith' or belief in God to introduce him to our little ones, we don't have to answer to anybody as to how we decide to raise our children, as I suspect, you wouldn't feel the need to either. In short, that's your prerogative and mine.

lmaopml

Apologies, I just noticed I keep spelling descriminating like description with an 'e' lol.....

I must be flustered

lmaopml

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm not antsy.

I don't just "feel" discriminated against in Ireland, my children ARE discriminated against in Ireland, are you not getting that? Our local schools can & do legally discriminate and refuse places to children without a baptismal cert. Maybe it's just semantics but I wouldn't consider that "Catholics" are discriminating but certainly Catholicism is being allowed to discriminate through a lack of secular legislation and certain Catholics support that discrimination.

If you went to Iran then you would probably have some kind of problem somewhere along the line because it's a different culture with it's own history. We can't change the effects of it without some effort. I think your ire is misdirected - our state has been allowed get away with not representing you and your ideals for far too long. Although in fairness, we are a young state. History didn't start the day you decided what you were? It's there, and we all have to deal with it. I like the idea that you actively tried to do so...instead of whinging about everything not suiting you

Sam Vimes

lmaopml wrote: »

How does Irish Law descriminate against you?

The discrimination laws in this country have a specific exemption to allow religious discrimination in schools, or as they call it the "ethos" rule. This means that I don't have equal access to a public service that we both pay for equally. If it was suggested that the local hospital should only be for catholics and everyone else had to lobby the government to build one for them there would be uproar but when the discrimination is against 5 year old children for some reason nobody bats an eyelid

Sam Vimes

lmaopml wrote: »

It's there, and we all have to deal with it. I like the idea that you actively tried to do so...instead of whinging about everything not suiting you

I's a bit rude don't you think, to "ask people's opinions" and then accuse them of whinging when they give them?

Ickle Magoo

lmaopml wrote: »

If you went to Iran then you would probably have some kind of problem somewhere along the line because it's a different culture with it's own history. We can't change the effects of it without some effort. I think your ire is misdirected - our state has been allowed get away with not representing you and your ideals for far too long. Although in fairness, we are a young state. History didn't start the day you decided what you were? It's there, and we all have to deal with it.

That's such a pathetic justification that keeps being trotted out.

Yeah, if I live in different parts of the world I will encounter female circumcision, women who are not allowed to vote, abject poverty and child prostitution. Does that mean that Ireland in 2009 is doing well to be in contravention of the human rights charter with regards to it's education system - no, not by a long shot. If you want to pat yourself on the back for doing better than countries that have terrible human rights records fine, there are plenty out there to choose from - I'd rather be congratulating my country for leading the way in having the most inclusive, socially cohesive policies in the western world.

I'm not Irish but my husband, my children and all my husbands family are. You do realise this isn't just an issue with us new fangled immigrants coming here & trying to foist our lofty atheist ideals, don't you?

lmaopml

Sorry, perhaps it seems I was being rude, I assure you I'm not! It's how I feel about it, I'm just honest to a fault sometimes I suppose. I was just discussing it with you that's all...

I'm not going to do a jig cause a poster on here thinks my faith is 'magic' lol.....

I just talk straight.

and I sincerely thank you for your opinions and for replying....all of you that did. It's good to talk. I seem to be causing upset? Sorry

Ickle Magoo

lmaopml wrote: »

I seem to be causing upset? Sorry

Not to me, promise, I'm just naturally quite abrupt - trying to make lunch, stop the kids killing each other & typing at the same time has that effect on me. :P

lmaopml

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

That's such a pathetic justification that keeps being trotted out.

Yeah, if I live in different parts of the world I will encounter female circumcision, women who are not allowed to vote, abject poverty and child prostitution. Does that mean that Ireland in 2009 is doing well to be in contravention of the human rights charter with regards to it's education system - no, not by a long shot. If you want to pat yourself on the back for doing better than countries that have terrible human rights records fine, there are plenty out there to choose from - I'd rather be congratulating my country for leading the way in having the most inclusive, socially cohesive policies in the western world.

I'm not Irish but my husband, my children and all my husbands family are. You do realise this isn't just an issue with us new fangled immigrants coming here & trying to foist our lofty atheist ideals, don't you?

I have no problem whatsoever with immigrants. When did I say any such thing? Preposterous....! I have congratulated you twice on your energy for change. I voted Yes in the Lisbon debate because I too value the Charter of Fundamental Rights in the European Union.....That's a strawman arguement you're using, and you know it!

You want socially cohesive policies in Ireland and so do I? So what do you propose would make things good for both of us? and that won't exclude a vast majority in the country by going all secular? There is no magic wand, we're all only finding our way....

liamw

lmaopml wrote: »

My children will be brought up within their faith, yes. It's part and parcel of having a 'faith' or belief in God to introduce him to our little ones, we don't have to answer to anybody as to how we decide to raise our children, as I suspect, you wouldn't feel the need to either. In short, that's your prerogative and mine.

This really disheartens me. What is 'their faith' by the way? How can they be old enough to have a 'faith' or belief system?

Have you already labelled your children as 'Catholic' or 'Muslim'? Would you label your child as 'Democrat' or 'Republican'?

Ickle Magoo

lmaopml wrote: »

I have no problem whatsoever with immigrants. When did I say any such thing? Preposterous....! I have congratulated you twice on your energy for change. I voted Yes in the Lisbon debate because I too value the Charter of Fundamental Rights in the European Union.....That's a strawman arguement you're using, and you know it!

I didn't say you had an issue with immigrants, please re-read my post. You commented if I went to another country I would come up against certain societal prejudices according to their history, my point was the issue in Ireland isn't just about going to a country and coming up against their prejudices, it's about people who are being forced to contribute to a system that is prejudiced against them - many of them are Irish.

lmaopml wrote: »

You want socially cohesive policies in Ireland and so do I? So what do you propose would make things good for both of us? and that won't exclude a vast majority in the country by going all secular? There is no magic wand, we're all only finding our way....

Can you explain how secularism would exclude anyone...."going all secular"?

lmaopml

liamw wrote: »

This really disheartens me. What is 'their faith' by the way? How can they be old enough to have a 'faith' or belief system?

Have you already labelled your children as 'Catholic' or 'Muslim'? Would you label your child as 'Democrat' or 'Republican'?

Why should it dishearten you what way anybody brings up their children? It doesn't dishearten me if you like orange and not purple? Children are written on from the day they are born by society, peers and parents - both yours and mine. I intend fully to educate my children with diversity in mind.......I also intend to instill some values in them, as I'm sure you will, or have done.

lmaopml

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I didn't say you had an issue with immigrants, please re-read my post. You commented if I went to another country I would come up against certain societal prejudices according to their history, my point was the issue in Ireland isn't just about going to a country and coming up against their prejudices, it's about people who are being forced to contribute to a system that is prejudiced against them - many of them are Irish.



Can you explain how secularism would exclude anyone...."going all secular"?

Well you feel discriminated against and excluded because we're not a secular state. So I guess the same except the shoe would be on the other foot Yes?

NothingMan

lmaopml wrote: »

Well you feel discriminated against and excluded because we're not a secular state. So I guess the same except the shoe would be on the other foot Yes?

I don't think you realise the difference between secular and Atheist.

In a secular society everyone will have the right to educate their children in their own way. Just not through state funded education system, but their own churches and home life. Same as us Atheists will educate our kids without a church.

Schools can educate ABOUT religions, but not have a religious ethos.

lmaopml

NothingMan wrote: »

I don't think you realise the difference between secular and Atheist.

In a secular society everyone will have the right to educate their children in their own way. Just not through state funded education system, but their own churches and home life. Same as us Atheists will educate our kids without a church.

Schools can educate ABOUT religions, but not have a religious ethos.

Thank you for your reply. I think that sounds fair tbh....although, I do reserve the right to educate my children within a religious ethos. I wouldn't mind, in time, if I had to 'pay' for the priviledge to do so, and I would like it if the schools were equally funded and supported by the state as a secular school would be.......I think the Protestant schools are being given a hard time at the moment by Batt, and those guys pay their taxes too

Now, this is more constructive Cheers!


In saying all of that it sounds like your looking for a bit of a Utopia of sorts, and no harm in that, but has it worked out that way anywhere else on the planet? That discriminations dies because a state is secular? I guess when we are going to vote on amendments to the constitution each of us bring with us our 'ideals' as such, asking me to leave God out of a vote, would be like asking me to leave the better bit of myself behind while I would place a vote on anything to do with amending the constitution iykwim. However, I do get you! I'd like to see more ET schools for sure...

Osgoodisgood

robindch wrote: »

Personally, I'd wouldn't like faith -- in the sense of mutual trust -- to disappear, on the contrary, I think it's central to our ability as a society to function.

Faith = mutual trust?

I don't get it, at least not in a religious context anyway. Could you elaborate?

NothingMan

It's been mentioned here before and I don't think that Atheists on this forum have any issues with a school with a particular religious ethos, but that should be funded by the church with the same state funding that would be afforded to any other special interest school.

I think most primary schools, despite being allowed to exclude non catholics, really wouldn't. And I hope when it comes to it I will find a secular school, but if not, that a Catholic school will accept my kids and respect my beliefs or lack of.

I do want my kids, when I have them, to be educated ABOUT world religions, but they will not join one until they make that decison themselves when they are informed and mature enough to do so. That doesn't have to be 18, but when they feel they know what they are believing in and becoming involved in.

Sam Vimes

lmaopml wrote: »

In saying all of that it sounds like your looking for a bit of a Utopia of sorts, and no harm in that, but has it worked out that way anywhere else on the planet? That discriminations dies because a state is secular?

Who said discrimination would die? It just wouldn't be legally allowed in public schools, the way it is in pretty much every other developed nation in the world

lmaopml wrote: »

I guess when we are going to vote on amendments to the constitution each of us bring with us our 'ideals' as such, asking me to leave God out of a vote, would be like asking me to leave the better bit of myself behind while I would place a vote on anything to do with amending the constitution iykwim. However, I do get you! I'd like to see more ET schools for sure...

And no one's asking you to leave god out of your vote. Teaching your children to follow your religion does not necessitate or excuse discrimination. Public schools should be for learning the state curriculum and religion should be taught after school hours, in the home, in church funded private schools or in a Sunday school type setup

CiDeRmAn

It's interesting that people, including some atheists themselves talk about atheists almost as a grouping, as a collective.
This is untrue.
For that, please head for the Humanists, people who don't like gods but do like the ceremonies it seems!
No, most atheists, certainly myself, came to the point of view that there is no god through thought, introspection and eventually made a decision that there was no, could be no god, no metaphysical spiritual realm, that all reality is there before us, needing no supernatural hand to either set it in motion or guide it on it's way.
As for a vision of the future, I would suggest that my vision of the future, or at least hopes for the future are the same as everyone else's,
To keep my family happy and healthy,
To realise private hopes and desires of my own,
To become the best I can in my chosen career,
To avoid causing hurt and to make others happy too.
To experience as much as I can along the way, and regardless of the joyous or painful nature of life, to learn from each event and contribute something a little more to my understandings of others.

For any "everlasting life" suggestions of the future, I put my immortality in the memories of me my son will carry for his life, and hopefully his leaving some of those to his children, and also those positive influences i can be on the lives of friends and colleagues, that a part of me may continue there.
I this way, we all can live forever, or at least the things we hold the dearest can be spread beyond ourselves.

lmaopml

NothingMan wrote: »

It's been mentioned here before and I don't think that Atheists on this forum have any issues with a school with a particular religious ethos, but that should be funded by the church with the same state funding that would be afforded to any other special interest school.

I think most primary schools, despite being allowed to exclude non catholics, really wouldn't. And I hope when it comes to it I will find a secular school, but if not, that a Catholic school will accept my kids and respect my beliefs or lack of.

I do want my kids, when I have them, to be educated ABOUT world religions, but they will not join one until they make that decison themselves when they are informed and mature enough to do so. That doesn't have to be 18, but when they feel they know what they are believing in and becoming involved in.

I would hope your children would be treated with dignity and tolerance too. I think most of us are pretty tolerant of diversity these days, although you will come across a few militants and extremists on both sides of the debate too..lol....In my experience, most Catholic schools do have students that are non catholic and they just don't get involved in the Religious end of things.....Most Catholic schools teach about various world religions too, in fact they do an exam these days which is pretty cool!

Also, I would agree that 'special interest' schools should be more a private affair when they are in a minority with state funding given as a 'special interest'. It's up to the people what type of schools they want at the end of the day, and unfortunately ET schools seems to be the ones that are of 'special interest' at the moment.....Anything that changes the education system against the majority will of the people is bound to be looked on as a dictatorship... It may very well change, but it has to be inline with demand too....

I could accept this freely...