Barmen charged of killing Man with Booze

drunkmonkey

Linky

What next will we be able to sue for hangovers?

Feel sorry for the 2 chaps involved and the poor chap that's not around, seem like a tragic accident...
What do you think, are the barmen responsible, is the victim?

minidazzler

TBH, it's not exactly the worst way to die like.

Still feel bad for the Poor fellow's family!

AnonoBoy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What do you think, are the barmen responsible, is the victim?

I dunno. I'd probably need the facts to determine whose fault it was.

wudangclan

a bit hard to say without knowing the details.
has this happened before?

AnonoBoy

wudangclan wrote: »

a bit hard to say without knowing the details.
has this happened before?

It happened to Hendrix I think.

wudangclan

AnonoBoy wrote: »

It happened to Hendrix I think.

he was murdered by his manager says the latest book on the subject.

Turd Ferguson

Did the barmen hold down the guy and pour it down his throat? He was an adult and it was his own fault in my opinion.

AnonoBoy

wudangclan wrote: »

he was murdered by his manager says the latest book on the subject.

Maybe the two cases are related then....:eek:

WindSock

Well it was the chaps birthday, surely he wasn't buying his own drinks. Unless he was me

drunkmonkey

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I dunno. I'd probably need the facts to determine whose fault it was.

I don't know the exact facts but it seems pretty straight forward, man drinks 2 much booze and dies, barmen guilty of giving him booze now charged with killing him...

whiskeyman

Could be facing a breathalyzer before going to the bar in the future...

EL_Loco

I've never seen a visibly drunk person being refused a drink in Ireland. I've seen it abroad though.

that said, he was the birthday boy, and you're not going to stop serving him seeing as he's drawn the crowd.

Keogg

Woah woah woah, hang on here a minute, thats ridiculous!!


Its so not the barmens fault that someone cant handle their drink, surely if it was the mans birthday, he'd have had friends with him, would they not have been more responsible for making sure he wasnt going to o.d on drink then the barman?
It couldnt possibly be the barmens fault unless they phsyically forced drink into his lungs and he died!

This really feels like it should be an 'only in america' moment... but TIPPERARY?!

jumpguy

The barman can not be blamed. The victim choked on his own vomit. He shouldn't have drank that much, it's not like he collapsed at the bar, he went up to bed and choked on his own vomit. How can they be blamed for that?

CountingCrows

FFS, he was English. Free the Thurles two!

WindSock

Well in fairness it would have been a bit irresponsable to have served him if he were mouldy drunk.

AnonoBoy

CountingCrows wrote: »

FFS, he was English. Free the Thurles two!

Damn you and your ninja edits.

minidazzler

Keogg wrote: »

Woah woah woah, hang on here a minute, thats ridiculous!!


Its so not the barmens fault that someone cant handle their drink, surely if it was the mans birthday, he'd have had friends with him, would they not have been more responsible for making sure he wasnt going to o.d on drink then the barman?
It couldnt possibly be the barmens fault unless they phsyically forced drink into his lungs and he died!

This really feels like it should be an 'only in america' moment... but TIPPERARY?!

No, The barman is Sober, his friends are not. He has the right to refuse service based on someone being too drunk. He didn't.

Have you ever seen a drunk person and just thought "he should not be allowed drink More".

Barmen see this all the time, they should know better.

In reality though it's all down to the man falling asleep in a bad position.

Loopy

I think its absolute madness for them to be charged.
We are responsible for ourselves, no-one forced him..

NothingMan

If they get prosecuted what are we going to do? Sign a waiver when you start drinking in a bar? Arresting an off license worker for selling me a litre of vodka after I decide to drink it all in 20 minutes?

People are responsible for their own health in these situations.

CountingCrows

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Damn you and your ninja edits.

daveyboy_1ie

EL_Loco wrote: »

I've never seen a visibly drunk person being refused a drink in Ireland. I've seen it abroad though.

Should never be the barmans responsibility to decide what you may or may not have. People refuse to take responsibility for these things and shirk the blame. Poor guys doing their job and somehow they are implicated??? That just does not make sense to me. if he had of gotten into car and killed himself or others would they still be charged?

Feel sorry for him of course, but people looking to blame others should not look at some poor guys doing their job and destroying their lives too.

CountingCrows

The men appeared in court to face the manslaughter charges following a mammoth and complex 16-month investigation led by Supt Tony Cogan of Thurles garda station.

16 months to interview a dozen or so witnesses! :eek:

Mossy Monk

EL_Loco wrote: »

I've never seen a visibly drunk person being refused a drink in Ireland. I've seen it abroad though.

A good point. I think it's mad really that they don't.

MagicMarker

Posting links should be against the charter!

Can someone please paste the information for those of us who don't have access to the link?

Thanks.

CountingCrows

Might have been the minibar in his room that put him over the edge, maybe they should charge whoever stocked that :rolleyes:

Loopy

MagicMarker wrote: »

Posting links should be against the charter!

Can someone please paste the information for those of us who don't have access to the link?

Thanks.

TWO barmen working in one of the country's most famous hotels have been charged with the unlawful killing of an Englishman who died from acute alcohol intoxication on the night of his birthday.

The criminal case, the first one of "liquor liability" in Ireland, has been brought against two staff at the landmark Hayes Hotel in Thurles, Co Tipperary, following a lengthy investigation by gardai.

Earlier this week, bar manager Gary Wright (32) and barman Aidan Dalton (27) appeared in Thurles District Court.

They were both charged with the manslaughter of Graham Parish contrary to common law at the hotel on July 1, 2008.

It is understood the young man choked to death on his own vomit following a night's socialising at the hotel.

Both men, who gave addresses at Kilfithmone, Borrisleigh, Co Tipperary, were charged with the unlawful killing of the English national on formal directions of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

The men appeared in court to face the manslaughter charges following a mammoth and complex 16-month investigation led by Supt Tony Cogan of Thurles garda station.

Graham Parish, of 41 Calder Terrace, Lomeshaye village near Nelson, Lancashire, England, was a resident in Hayes Hotel on the night of June 30/July 1 2008.

The deceased had celebrated his 26th birthday on June 30 and his death came about as a result of acute alcohol intoxication.

Bail

Judge Tom O'Donnell granted both defendants bail and ordered them to appear before the same court again next month for service of the book of evidence.

Hayes Hotel is located in Liberty Square in Thurles and is a popular haunt of GAA supporters.

The GAA was founded in the hotel on November 1, 1884, when it was known as the Commercial Hotel. The case is set to revive debate over the responsibility owed to the public by bartenders, bar owners and "social hosts".

A spokesman for Hayes Hotel said he could not comment on the issue last night.

"We are not in a position to comment as the matter is sub-judice, except to say that we have co-operated fully with gardai on this tragic matter throughout their investigation.

"However, our thoughts at this time are first and foremost with the family and friends of the deceased, Mr Graham Parish."

..

Keogg

minidazzler wrote: »

No, The barman is Sober, his friends are not. He has the right to refuse service based on someone being too drunk. He didn't.

Have you ever seen a drunk person and just thought "he should not be allowed drink More".

Barmen see this all the time, they should know better.

In reality though it's all down to the man falling asleep in a bad position.

I see your point but there is still a lot of information left out in that article, I mean, one would assume that he must have been falling about the place drunk, but he might not have been, he could've just looked fairly drunk, or maybe not drunk enough to warrant being refused drink, and his friends could easily have been buying him extra drink for his birthday all night. There's a lot of factors to consider here, although i did jump to the barmens defense kinda quickly:pac:
But even your last line proves the point: it cant of been the barmens fault for him actually dying, surely they must have seen people be more drunk and come in fine the next day.
It was a very tragic accident, TBH, and i feel real bad for the dead man and his family, but its just crazy to blame the barmen

rizzee

Birthday Boys fault end of. Well, his mates too for letting him get that pissed. What a bunch o twats

ShooterSF

EL_Loco wrote: »

I've never seen a visibly drunk person being refused a drink in Ireland. I've seen it abroad though.

that said, he was the birthday boy, and you're not going to stop serving him seeing as he's drawn the crowd.

If it helps I refused a fella just last Sunday who fell in the door of the pub. He's not the first I refused either in my days. It's not something one does lightly though as often you are embarrassing a regular in front of other regulars they know quite well but it is done.

NothingMan

Mossy Monk wrote: »

A good point. I think it's mad really that they don't.

But us Irish can go out, have 20 pints and drive home and satisfy our wives and mistresses. No need to regulate our drinking.

Gummy Panda

Not going to comment on case without full facts but back when i was working as a barman going into college, I was informed in great detail by the owner that the pub accepts responsibility for all patrons on the premises. He also made it clear that its actually illegal to be drunk in public and the pub is part of this rule.

So if someone seemed too drunk, we were told to cut them off and inform security. Security would then escort them from the premises. This was so they didn't fall or have an accident in the pub and later sue us for still serving them while visibly drunk.

So i can see how DPP has a case if the man didn't drink anything more outside of the pub.

Ross_Mahon

I think the Barmen have every right to refuse someone that looks intoxicated, I've seen it been done and the customer loosing the head over it, Its for their own good.

dyl10

When your business is serving a dangerous drug to the public, you certainly do hold some responsibility.

spadder

dyl10 wrote: »

When your business is serving a dangerous drug to the public, you certainly do hold some responsibility.

What if I buy a chicken from my butcher, under-cook it, and as a result I die from salmonella. Is the butcher liable?

Kipperhell

I refused a guy becuse he could barely walk and his words were slurred. His friend came back up and explained his friend had a disability and wasn't drunk. Looked over and realised he had crutches and special shoes. Very embarrassed but it was seen as an innocent mistake.

Depending on what actually happened the barmen may actually bare some responsibility. The person drinking may not have said no but the barmen could have been aware of how drunk he was.

ShooterSF

spadder wrote: »

What if I buy a chicken from my butcher, under-cook it, and as a result I die from salmonella. Is the butcher liable?

Or you buy a pack of pain killers and knock them back in the chemist.

Gummy Panda

spadder wrote: »

What if I buy a chicken from my butcher, under-cook it, and as a result I die from salmonella. Is the butcher liable?

No but neither would an off-license be liable for selling you a lot of booze.

If you bought a chicken dish from a restaurant, the chef under cooked it and as a result you died from salmonella then yes, the restaurant would be liable.

Kradock

Maybe the case should be tried here ......facts people


Edit . Could they have been spiking his drink . I know of 2 barmen who used to do this to blokes they had a grudge against.

Bob_Harris

Did the guy die on the floor of the bar?

What about drink drivers who kill themselves or others? Are barmen liable for those too?

There has to more to this than what we can read in that article. I mean, 16 months of a "mammoth and complex" investigation?

bluto63

Unless the guy was falling about the place knocking tables over, the bar staff shouldn't be held responsible. Besides, if they did refuse him, it was the guys birthday, someone else would've gone up and bought him a drink

The_Minister

Turd Ferguson wrote: »

Did the barmen hold down the guy and pour it down his throat? He was an adult and it was his own fault in my opinion.

Normally I would agree with you.

However, someone who has had 11 shots in quick succession is not capable of rationally deciding to have a 12th.

A barman has a duty, if someone who is dangerously intoxicated seeks more alcohol, to refuse to serve them, as they may be unable to make that decision themselves.

bullpost

Sounds like theres more to this than meets the eye .
I'm no legal expert but a charge of manslaughter without any precedent seems fairly severe - I would have thought a lesser charge of negligence or whatever would have been more apt.

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

The_Minister

NothingMan wrote: »

If they get prosecuted what are we going to do? Sign a waiver when you start drinking in a bar? Arresting an off license worker for selling me a litre of vodka after I decide to drink it all in 20 minutes?

People are responsible for their own health in these situations.

CountingCrows wrote: »

Might have been the minibar in his room that put him over the edge, maybe they should charge whoever stocked that :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: To both of you.

They would not be prosecuted if they serve alcohol to a sober person.
You may buy a ton of alcohol, but you make that choice in full sobriety, knowing what you are doing

That is very different from someone whose judgment is impaired, and cannot make a decision being served alcohol.

TheZohanS

The_Minister wrote: »

Normally I would agree with you.

However, someone who has had 11 shots in quick succession is not capable of rationally deciding to have a 12th.

A barman has a duty, if someone who is dangerously intoxicated seeks more alcohol, to refuse to serve them, as they may be unable to make that decision themselves.

That's what it was, I remember reading/hearing about it in the news at the time.

The barman knew this guy was drinking all these shots in a row.

Macca07

Yes, but on a fellas birthday???

I know the barman has his job to do and probably should've refused him.
From working in a pub myself, I know its not the easiest thing to refuse someone a drink when they've been in there for a few hours giving u their money!!!

As for this case, the two barmen should not be charged with this, and its an absolute disgrace that they have.

What are publicans supposed to do, refuse everyone who has had a few drinks, this is Ireland after all!!!

Turd Ferguson

The_Minister wrote: »

Normally I would agree with you.

However, someone who has had 11 shots in quick succession is not capable of rationally deciding to have a 12th.

A barman has a duty, if someone who is dangerously intoxicated seeks more alcohol, to refuse to serve them, as they may be unable to make that decision themselves.

Completely disagree...if you are downing 11 shots in quick succession you deserve what you get. He was a fool for drinking so much so quick and the blame should not be passed to anyone else. Sure, the barmen shouldnt have given him more, but to be held responsible for his death is ridiculous

The_Minister

Turd Ferguson wrote: »

Completely disagree...if you are downing 11 shots in quick succession you deserve what you get. He was a fool for drinking so much so quick and the blame should not be passed to anyone else. Sure, the barmen shouldnt have given him more, but to be held responsible for his death is ridiculous

Look at this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e4caLZUrFw

Should that man be served more alcohol?

Have you never drank more than you originally intended?
One leads to another, and to one more, and then....?
Because I will say right now I have.

When someone has taken 11 shots of alcohol they are too drunk to recognise that they should stop, and the barmen have a duty not to give them any more.

No one is saying that if you see a drunk man you have to stop him drinking.
You just cannot give him more alcohol when he already dangerously drunk.
Someone who is drunk cannot make rational decisions about the consequences of taking drink, and those who give them more drink, even though they know that the person has taken a dangerous amount already, should be in some way liable.

Chucky the tree

The barmen broke the law, of course they should be done.

c-note

will the state have to show that the man did not consume ANYTHING else after leaving the bar..??

if he had chips that could've caused him to vomit...

if there was a mini-bar in his room does that constitute attempted murder on the part of the hotel?

will my local shop be prosecuted when i die of smoking related illnesses??

will toyota be held responsible when i die after loosing control at the wheel?

jesus.. i may aswell sue my parents... if it wernt for them i'd never have been born and wouldnt have to die.. and so i guess they will eventually be responsible for my death!

i know if i was a barman, i'd be enforcing a three drink limit from now on!