Child Benefit Reform???

PYRO#1

I think that in light of the problems that this country is facing we should reform the child benefit scheme.
This is just a suggestion so don't go biting my head off if you have six kids and cant live without it.
From my understanding the payments aren't linked to keeping your child in education and i think this should be an condition! If your kid isn't in education 80% of the time no dosh or else link it to attendance, if the child only turns up 50% of the time you only get 50% of the payment.

Even more controversial i think that you should be deducted money if the child gets into trouble with the law.
It might sort out some of the anti-social problems we have.

ei.sdraob

PYRO#1 wrote: »

I think that in light of the problems that this country is facing we should reform the child benefit scheme.
This is just a suggestion so don't go biting my head off if you have six kids and cant live without it.
From my understanding the payments aren't linked to keeping your child in education and i think this should be an condition! If your kid isn't in education 80% of the time no dosh or else link it to attendance, if the child only turns up 50% of the time you only get 50% of the payment.

Even more controversial i think that you should be deducted money if the child gets into trouble with the law.
It might sort out some of the anti-social problems we have.

good idea

but your proposal means more work for the public sector bureaucracy

and you know how they love working

PYRO#1

Ya and i love that they love work, its what makes me get out of bed in the morning:D

They ain't all bad some are extremely good at what they do:cool:

Tragedy

Half of child benefit should be given in the form of Income Tax Rebates.

Diarmuid

PYRO#1 wrote: »

I think that in light of the problems that this country is facing we should reform the child benefit scheme.
This is just a suggestion so don't go biting my head off if you have six kids and cant live without it.
From my understanding the payments aren't linked to keeping your child in education and i think this should be an condition! If your kid isn't in education 80% of the time no dosh or else link it to attendance, if the child only turns up 50% of the time you only get 50% of the payment.

Even more controversial i think that you should be deducted money if the child gets into trouble with the law.
It might sort out some of the anti-social problems we have.

Plenty of good ideas there. No chance of them been implemented.

What I don't get is , in this day and age, if you can't afford kids don't have them.

Max Power1

Diarmuid wrote: »

What I don't get is , in this day and age, if you can't afford kids don't have them.

The thing is the current SW system makes it a career choice for people to keep popping out kids and getting child benefit, lone parents allowance, Jobseeker allowance, rent allowance, child supplement addition to JA etc etc. This should be changed. We need to drastically reduce all these payments to encourage people to get up and work.

invincibleirish

Give child benefit to those who genuinely require it, and not as another perk to those who certainly don't need it.

old boy

yeah so the clown cowen upped the allowance, some people took the oppertunity to get paid for having kids. people were of the opinion a gaggle of kids would be a nice little money earner, if that is taken from them they are going to be fairly fissed off, i was often told put on an extension have a few more kids sure they will pay for it in no time, lucky me i thought i was badly off enough as it was.

PYRO#1

Yes exactly that was my next point!
Child Benefit is acting as an incentive to have kids and we need kids in this country. They can have a great standard of life here and hopefully pay for us when we are old:D Pension management is a whole other topic lets not go there just yet:rolleyes:

But if you cant afford to have kids then you shouldn't be having any, at least until you can afford to and then only as many as you can afford!

But that would require ever child in the country being planned, which clearly isn't the case!

blond45

i know , why dont all the men have THE SNIP. then there be no need for child allowance. or the wemen get sterilized..;) of course im kidden folks.

ceret

invincibleirish wrote: »

Give child benefit to those who genuinely require it, and not as another perk to those who certainly don't need it.

I agree. Make it means tested.

PYRO#1

It just bugs me that the money is given out just for having a kid, nothing else:mad:
People will have kids anyway whether they mean to or not.
Actually use the money to some advantage by keeping kids in school and out of trouble or stop the payment and use it to fund something else (education, health, justice or something)

PaulieD

Cut the benefit for childers not resident in the Irish state.

PYRO#1

PaulieD wrote: »

Cut the benefit for childers not resident in the Irish state.

Ya now that really is stupid:mad:
Why the BLEEP are we paying for children that dont live here:mad:

PaulieD

PYRO#1 wrote: »

Ya now that really is stupid:mad:
Why the BLEEP are we paying for children that dont live here:mad:

In 2008, a spot check of Children's Allowance found a greater incidence of fraud amongst foreigners. The fraud amongst foreigners was 13% of all claims compared to 1.5% among Irish citizens. So, one in eight of those children not resident in the state, in receipt of the benefit simply do not exist. Blame the civil service for this mess.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0721/1216565492868.html

invincibleirish

PYRO#1 wrote: »

Ya now that really is stupid:mad:
Why the BLEEP are we paying for children that dont live here:mad:

Less of the foreigner bashing, why are we paying child benefit to people who have no financial need for child benefit? rather some Polish kid getting it who requires it to survive rather then Tarquins mummy out in Foxrock saving it for a rainy day.

PaulieD

invincibleirish wrote: »

Less of the foreigner bashing, why are we paying child benefit to people who have no financial need for child benefit? rather some Polish kid getting it who requires it to survive rather then Tarquins mummy out in Foxrock saving it for a rainy day.

It is not foreigner bashing, it is called balancing the books. We are a small bankrupt nation, we cannot continue to play the generous Paddy anymore. We are borrowing hundreds of millions of euro each week to make child benefit payments to children who do not reside in Ireland. But never fear, my grandchildren will pick up the tab.:rolleyes:

Oh, and I support means testing for child benefit payments, so your point about Tarquin from Foxrock is null and void.

invincibleirish

PaulieD wrote: »

It is not foreigner bashing, it is called balancing the books. We are a small bankrupt nation, we cannot continue to play the generous Paddy anymore. We are borrowing hundreds of millions of euro each week to make child benefit payments to children who do not reside in Ireland. But never fear, my grandchildren will pick up the tab.:rolleyes:

Oh, and I support means testing for child benefit payments, so your point about Tarquin from Foxrock is null and void.

Do we have any kind of stats on CB payments to parents resident outside the state?

PYRO#1

Im not foreigner bashing, i dont think it should be paid to children who are not resident here regardless of nationality.

Its a bit of a pointless payment if it isn't used right.
I DON'T THINK ITS RIGHT TO GIVE PEOPLE MONEY FOR SIMPLY HAVING CHILDREN!
Whats the reason behind if as it stands? How is the country benefiting from it when you could focus the money where its needed?

invincibleirish

PYRO#1 wrote: »

Its a bit of a pointless payment if it isn't used right.
I DON'T THINK ITS RIGHT TO GIVE PEOPLE MONEY FOR SIMPLY HAVING CHILDREN!
Whats the reason behind if as it stands? How is the country benefiting from it when you could focus the money where its needed?

Kids are expensive, so i hear anyway, i don't think there is anything wrong in providing financial assistance to the unemployed and poorly paid who have kids. They are the future after all.

PaulieD

invincibleirish wrote: »

Do we have any kind of stats on CB payments to parents resident outside the state?

As regular readers will testify, I always back up my opinions with facts and figures. Post number 15.

PaulieD

PYRO#1 wrote: »

Im not foreigner bashing, i dont think it should be paid to children who are not resident here regardless of nationality.

Its a bit of a pointless payment if it isn't used right.
I DON'T THINK ITS RIGHT TO GIVE PEOPLE MONEY FOR SIMPLY HAVING CHILDREN!
Whats the reason behind if as it stands? How is the country benefiting from it when you could focus the money where its needed?

In some cases, it keeps children above the poverty trap. I am all for mean testing the payment, but lets not punish children in genuine need, even if we disagree with their parents actions.

harsea8

Means testing is too open for abuse and will involve quite a bit of administration. For example, if a couple are unmarried, but have a child, who's salary do you "test" to see if they are eligible to receive it? If the father is the breadwinner, but pretends he doesn't live at the family home (which is a common ploy now to allow the mother to claim lone parents allowance) how are the authorities even going to have the manpower to find out if he does or doesn't live there........much better just to reduce it or get rid of it altogether*

*and before anyone says anything, I get it for my 2 kids at the moment and we would struggle if it was cut, but if it helps drags the country out of the sh*t then it will be worth it

invincibleirish

PaulieD wrote: »

As regular readers will testify, I always back up my opinions with facts and figures. Post number 15.

Don't have an IT subscription to read that link, and from what is readable it appears to suggest that this kind of benefit fraud is being clamped down with immediate effect, and as the link is from Summer '08, it suggests to me this isn't really an issue anymore?.

PYRO#1

Yes they are the future they are the country's most valuable resource.
But that resource isn't managed properly.

I been thinking long and hard about means testing CB and i think while in theory its sound in practice it would just make us an even worse welfare state!
If you cant afford to have ten kids you shouldn't be having them?

As it stands all children are entitled to it the same as free education.
Give it to everyone and manage it or scrap it

dresden8

PaulieD wrote: »

It is not foreigner bashing, it is called balancing the books. We are a small bankrupt nation, we cannot continue to play the generous Paddy anymore. We are borrowing hundreds of millions of euro each week to make child benefit payments to children who do not reside in Ireland. But never fear, my grandchildren will pick up the tab.:rolleyes:

Two numbers

1408 of 71.

It existed in EU legislation before we joined the "common market".

"We" just voted yes to Lisbon 2. If you voted "no" you can complain about foreigners, if you voted yes for closer integration, stfu.

herya

PYRO#1 wrote: »

Im not foreigner bashing, i dont think it should be paid to children who are not resident here regardless of nationality.

I'm not Irish and I agree with you.

PaulieD

dresden8 wrote: »

Two numbers

1408 of 71.

It existed in EU legislation before we joined the "common market".

"We" just voted yes to Lisbon 2. If you voted "no" you can complain about foreigners, if you voted yes for closer integration, stfu.

I voted No to Nice part deux, and both Lisbons.

PaulieD

invincibleirish wrote: »

Don't have an IT subscription to read that link, and from what is readable it appears to suggest that this kind of benefit fraud is being clamped down with immediate effect, and as the link is from Summer '08, it suggests to me this isn't really an issue anymore?.

Tip of the iceberg. Do you trust our inept civil service to clamp down on benefit fraud?

dresden8

PaulieD wrote: »

I voted No to Nice part deux, and both Lisbons.

Me too. You can feel free to complain so.

invincibleirish

PaulieD wrote: »

Tip of the iceberg. Do you trust our inept civil service to clamp down on benefit fraud?

In my humble experience, when it comes to benefit fraud we Irish do it better then anyone else. Don't think we can blame the Civil Service when we have a culture that seems to accept benefits fraud.

PYRO#1

Wonderful:mad:
And i bet europe never thought to re-distribute the money or link in payments across national borders!

dresden8

PYRO#1 wrote: »

Wonderful:mad:
And i bet europe never thought to re-distribute the money or link in payments across national borders!

In this context there is no Europe to "think".

Only national governments. Do you want closer integration?

Social welfare is snowed under at the moment. It tracks, catches and prosecutes fraud. Check out how many fraudsters got jail terms.

PYRO#1

How many?

dresden8

PaulieD wrote: »

Tip of the iceberg. Do you trust our inept civil service to clamp down on benefit fraud?

Benefit fraud is clamped down on, as before check out the jail terms given out.

Then again, check out the jail terms given out for bank fraud, i.e. fnck all.

Ireland is broke. Nobody wants to fix it.

dresden8

PYRO#1 wrote: »

How many?

In 2008, 357 cases of social welfare fraud were forwarded to the Chief State Solicitors Office for the initiation of prosecution proceedings.

328 cases were finalised in court, two were imprisoned, 19 received suspended sentences, 208 were fined, nine received community service and 46 received the Probation Act. The remaining penalties included cases which were bound to the peace or adjourned with liberty to re enter.

My italics.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/PressReleases/2009/Pages/pr210109.aspx

Then again, that's two more social welfare heads than bankers.

gaeilgebeo

The whole CB system is a joke! and dont get me started on the amount of fraud with "lone parents"!:mad:
Why can't child benefit be means tested? A person earning €250,000 a year gets the same CB as someone on the dole?!:rolleyes:

dresden8

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

The whole CB system is a joke! and dont get me started on the amount of fraud with "lone parents"!:mad:
Why can't child benefit be means tested? A person earning €250,000 a year gets the same CB as someone on the dole?!:rolleyes:

Means testing childrens allowance would cost a fortune when civil servant numbers are being slashed.

To make serious money it would have to be pitched quite low, amongst the "working poor".

Dutch businessman Bono wouldn't get the allowance but then again, neither would a lot of "normal" working people.

dresden8

PYRO#1 wrote: »

How many?

And seriously dude, if you're going to comment on a serious political forum, please check a few facts before posting your own.

gaeilgebeo

I agree that it would cost a fortune but the current system isn't working and a there is a large number of people receiving CB who don't really need it. They could even just have a cut off point.

dresden8

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I agree that it would cost a fortune but the current system isn't working and a there is a large number of people receiving CB who don't really need it. They could even just have a cut off point.

To make it worthwhile they'd have to set it quite "low", for example 50k.

Those on 49,999.99 could get several hundred a month CB, while those on 50,000.01 would get nothing.

It ain't easy.

And of course the self-employed who self declare their earnings would get the full amount.

We had this previously in the 80's with university grants.

Farmers and self-employed would get full grants, while PAYE saps would get fnck all.

PYRO#1

dresden8 i had researched the topic i just hadn't thought of it from that angle.
Throwing people in jail is stupid, far better off with a fine and a repayment!

Means testing in my opinion won't work it just gives people money for pumping out kids and not for turning out well developed responsible citizens

CB is a payment for all kids!

Tragedy

Why are people talking about means testing CB?

I have no problem with people who pay a lot of income tax receiving CB.

I have a huge problem with people who make a career OUT OF receiving CB.

Max Power1

PYRO#1 wrote: »

Ya now that really is stupid:mad:
Why the BLEEP are we paying for children that dont live here:mad:

+ a million Pyro, couldnt have said it better myself

Tragedy wrote: »

Why are people talking about means testing CB?

I have no problem with people who pay a lot of income tax receiving CB.

I have a huge problem with people who make a career OUT OF receiving CB.

Yes indeed! There should be a limit on how many children you can have in a five year period or something to stop the career mothers (and I use teh term mother loosely)

dvpower

Scrap Child Benefit.

Replace it with (reduced) tax credits for taxpayers and social welfare increases.

dresden8

dvpower wrote: »

Scrap Child Benefit.

Replace it with (reduced) tax credits for taxpayers and social welfare increases.

That has some merits.

The complications would be quite horrific though.

Tax credits and incentive/disincentive effects and other kinds of sh1te.

We have painted ourselves into a corner as regards our "social" set-up.

There's no easy way out of it.

Thanks Jaysus it's not my job.

The Saint

Max Power1 wrote: »

Yes indeed! There should be a limit on how many children you can have in a five year period or something to stop the career mothers (and I use teh term mother loosely)

Um, I wasn't aware that we were living in China!!! So how would you propose that this be implemented. Are the public service going to send employees into young disadvantaged mothers bed room to monitor their sexual activities and to be on hand with an auld Jonny just in case? Are the ones who are missed and actually get pregnant going to given forced abortions? What about people who choose to have a large family for personal reasons or those that can afford them? I come from a large family and we weren't eating coal growing up. Think of the logistics that it would take to implement such a policy. You'd spend more policing it than what it would save.

I agree with means testing but I agree that the implementation of it could be problematic. If it costs more money than it is supposed to save then it would be pointless. Although I don't see how this would be the case.

PaulieD

invincibleirish wrote: »

In my humble experience, when it comes to benefit fraud we Irish do it better then anyone else. Don't think we can blame the Civil Service when we have a culture that seems to accept benefits fraud.

I am sick of this Irish bashing on boards.ie. It seems it is trendy to bash all things Irish,I am absolutely ****ing sick of it. Re-read post number 15.

Foreigners are 800% more likely to commit child benefit fraud than their Irish counter parts.

herya

PaulieD wrote: »

Foreigners are 800% more likely to commit child benefit fraud than their Irish counter parts.

Or 800% more likely to be exposed. Seeing how there are more complicated procedures to claim CB for a foreign born child - more chances for the fraud attempt to come out - I guess that the real difference is not that dramatic.

max 73

blond45 wrote: »

i know , why dont all the men have THE SNIP. then there be no need for child allowance. or the wemen get sterilized..;) of course im kidden folks.

so thats what it really is for..........AN BORD SNIP NUA

nice_guy80

Break down the child benefit.

Give food vouchers so the children will be fed properly with proper healthy food from supermarkets and shops

Childcare vouchers that can be used to pay childcare fees

Clothing vouchers that can be spent in any clothing shop on children's clothing.

instead of bad parents using the money to pay for alcohol and cigarettes. as well as their own clothing and entertainment.