Palestinians' Water Cut 'To A Trickle'

dlofnep

Amnesty International has launched a scathing attack on Israel, accusing it of rationing Palestinians to a "trickle of water".

The human rights organisation says Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza are being denied the right to adequate water supplies.

"Israel allows the Palestinians access to only a fraction of the shared water resources, which lie mostly in the occupied West Bank," says the report's author, Donatella Rovera, "while the unlawful Israeli settlements receive virtually unlimited supplies."

Full article: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Water-Rationed-By-Israel-Palestinians-Get-Only-A-Trickle-Of-Water-Amnesty-International-Report/Article/200910415418465

More disgusting behaviour by Israel. What is it going to take for them to end this nonsense? The UN needs to intervene. A unbiased peace-keeping force needs to be sent into the area and enforce international law, because Israeli forces have absolutely no accountability. Palestinian land should be returned. Illegal settlements should be destroyed. Israel's leaders should be brought before the Hague for war-crimes. The US should end their unlimited spending on military aid for Israel.

sceptre

dlofnep wrote: »

What is it going to take for them to end this nonsense?

As I've said before, sanity from both sides and less cheerleading for either.

The cheerleading leads to little to help the huddled masses on both sides hiding from the terror propagated by (funnily enough) both sides and it's unfortunate when a round of public group spankings would be rather more useful than rhetoric on behalf of whichever side appears more palatable to one person or another.

Then again, look at me claiming the common sense.

Biggins

As an impartial observer of the whole mess - can anyone please explain to me why, just why America supports Israel more so much?
Is Israel quietly sitting on oil or uranium???
Genuine question - why the steadfast support for Israel ?

Nodin

B'tselem have been saying the same for years. It's a subtle form of warfare, really. They overuse their share of the Jordan basin generally.

The average Israeli uses 300 litres a day, the average Palestinian 70. Some are down to 20.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8327188.stm

With nitrates from the sewage and salt from the sea, only 5-10% of the water in Gaza's wells - and therefore its taps - now meets World Health Organization guidelines, even after it has been chlorinated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8327146.stm

Perhaps somebody will redo the sketch from "Team America" and replace Blix with Obama and Kim Jong-il with Netanyahu

Jumpy

Biggins wrote: »

As an impartial observer of the whole mess - can anyone please explain to me why, just why America supports Israel more so much?
Is Israel quietly sitting on oil or uranium???
Genuine question - why the steadfast support for Israel ?

Depends on who you ask.

The one I heard was that the US has a very high jewish population and they keep them happy for votes.

dlofnep

sceptre wrote: »

As I've said before, sanity from both sides and less cheerleading for either.

Easier said than done when Israel continues to provoke Palestinians by illegal land grabs, bulldozing of houses and locking them in a virtual prison with insufficient food and water.

Think you could remain sane under similar conditions? I'm perplexed by the idea that Palestinians should sit back, and let Israel continue it's illegal settlements and harassment of the Palestinian people. Could you imagine if Ian Paisley turned around tomorrow and stated that Cavan was now under British control, and started bulldozing down all the houses there - giving them to Unionists? Seriously, would you be as sane? Because that's exactly what's happening here.

Nodin

Jumpy wrote: »

Depends on who you ask.

The one I heard was that the US has a very high jewish population and they keep them happy for votes.

A high population in certain swing states, is actually how that theory goes. Personally I don't believe its that major a factor, as most Jewish Americans are far more left leaning than the right wing Israeli lobby.

wes

An interesting blog post on the independent.co.uk web site by Kate Allen, director of Amnesty in the UK:

Kate Allen: Swimming the Israeli settlements

Nice little blog that does sum up the situation pretty nicely imho.

Personally, I think the deteriorating situation of the Palestinains populace in general and in particular Gaza (the situation in Gaza, is worsened by Egyptian and Western complicity in the appaling siege), will in no way help peace. I think the concept of Maslow hierarchy of Needs theory applies here. Basically, the Palestinians will be more concerned with getting food and water, and simply won't be in a position to do much about peace. Afterall, its hard to think about peace, when your children are thristy and hungry and it should be noted that the West is very complicit in causing this deterioration of the Palestinian populace.

**EDIT**
For some bizare reason, its only ever seems to be the Palestinians who the West punishes for killing innocent civilians, while Israel basically gets away with it. Either both sides need to be punished or neither, the current ridiculous situation of Israel claiming that they are being victimized in the UN, while Gaza is under siege with the complicity from Western nations is quite frankly ridiculous. Now to be fair, in the UN Human Right Council condemnation of Israel, should have included a condemnation of Hamas, but I think it fair to point out that the siege on Gaza, is a 1000 times worse than a condemnation at the UN, that has little or no effect.

sceptre

dlofnep wrote: »

Easier said than done when Israel continues to provoke Palestinians by illegal land grabs, bulldozing of houses and locking them in a virtual prison with insufficient food and water.

Apparently my underlying theme wasn't obvious enough. Ah well.

Let's presume there wasn't an underlying theme that dealt strictly with the cheerleading (which I'm hoping some will notice). While one shower are marshalling the populace into what's been described as the largest concentration camp in the world, the other side are firing missiles out. Both sides are leading their own people to what may well be their own destruction. That's opinion. Both sides consider that their version of god is on their side. That's retarded. Both sides have their own group of cheerleaders in the west, eager to ignore the nasty things done by the side they support and eager to highlight the nasty things done by ths side they don't. That's, well, plain myopic. And part of the problem, not the solution. That's what cheerleading and finger-pointing does. Sure, finger point at the wrongs. That means doing it to both sides where appropriate, not just to one. Only cranks ignore the sty in their own eye to point at the plank in the other guy's (yes, I know what I did there). That's the problem. Semi-organised international idiotic cheerleading. And the worst thing is that those who are doing it can't see anything wrong with it because you know, their chosen side is like, right and all that. I can at least see the point in people living there having a limited vista - they're stuck with the terror of the other side, whichever one it is. There's no excuse for that outside of the area though. None whatever.


As for the early question about why the support is there from the US, there's certainly a pro-Israeli lobby. What influence it has is a matter of opinion. However, it's worth remembering that the US has a policy of acquiescence to the Balfour declaration, despite their not liking it, and there may have been a measure of guilt after WW2, with their realisation that if they'd pushed their case there might have been less jewish deaths in that war. That's part one. Secondly, US support was largely neutral towards Israel (despite being an early recogniser of the state) in the 50s and most of the 60s. One only has to look at the Suez crisis for that (for anyone not familiar with it, look it up but the short version is that the US supported Egypt). That's part 2. However, with the Soviets financially backing the Arab states throughout the 60s and Israel pushing them back in 1967, the US started to give more financial support to Israel as the first example of a state that actually beat the Soviet-backed opposition. You can pretty much see the change in policy around then as US relations with Egypt weren't warmed by Cairo's expulsion of Soviet ambassadors in 1972. Israel has been the largest recipient of US foreign aid every year since 1976. That's part three. The "lobby" has been considered as a force since, partly due to having the same basic values (in a simple sense) as the Christian right, with whom they've been allied on a number of issues. That's part four. The conspiracy theorists might say that the disappearance of the Kennedys as a major force in US politics had quite a bit to do with the rise in aid but I rather doubt that myself, correlation not being causation. Notably Kissinger said that in the Yom Kippur war, if Israel had struck first, they wouldn't have received "so much as a nail".

That's the short answer. The "lobby" answer on its own is completely oversimplistic in my view but as you can see from above I've got something of a more grey than black and white view about the whole thing anyway. The black and white lobby will just say it's the lobby and a bit of vote-swallowing and campaign money-making but put frankly, they're wrong. Even the view that it's as simple as loyalty left over after the cold war would be over simplistic and hence, also wrong.

Simply put, it's all of the above. Also, the US only changes foreign policy when it has a reason to do so or sees a major advantage in doing so (a pivot point - and militarily, not financially). In forty years, neither side in this conflict has particularly given them a military reason for switching support. I'm still being too simplistic but the points above are a good jumping off zone for further reading.

FlutterinBantam

Spot on Sceptre.

Time someone spoke the truth about that region,without beating the big drum endlessly and tiresomely about percieved wrongs and rights.

I have a lot of experience in that area, not recent though, and can assure you that your summation of the situation is correct.

proper dialogue is the only answer as was proved closer to home, and bullhorn expounders of the same auld rhetoric only serve to alienate the general public thinking or caring about what happens there.

Biggins

sceptre wrote: »

...As for the early question about why the support is there from the US, there's certainly a pro-Israeli lobby. What influence it has is a matter of opinion. However, it's worth remembering that the US has a policy of acquiescence to the Balfour declaration, despite their not liking it, and there may have been a measure of guilt after WW2, with their realisation that if they'd pushed their case there might have been less jewish deaths in that war. That's part one. Secondly, US support was largely neutral towards Israel (despite being an early recogniser of the state) in the 50s and most of the 60s. One only has to look at the Suez crisis for that (for anyone not familiar with it, look it up but the short version is that the US supported Egypt). That's part 2. However, with the Soviets financially backing the Arab states throughout the 60s and Israel pushing them back in 1967, the US started to give more financial support to Israel as the first example of a state that actually beat the Soviet-backed opposition. You can pretty much see the change in policy around then as US relations with Egypt weren't warmed by Cairo's expulsion of Soviet ambassadors in 1972. Israel has been the largest recipient of US foreign aid every year since 1976. That's part three. The "lobby" has been considered as a force since, partly due to having the same basic values (in a simple sense) as the Christian right, with whom they've been allied on a number of issues. That's part four. The conspiracy theorists might say that the disappearance of the Kennedys as a major force in US politics had quite a bit to do with the rise in aid but I rather doubt that myself, correlation not being causation. Notably Kissinger said that in the Yom Kippur war, if Israel had struck first, they wouldn't have received "so much as a nail".

That's the short answer. The "lobby" answer on its own is completely oversimplistic in my view but as you can see from above I've got something of a more grey than black and white view about the whole thing anyway. The black and white lobby will just say it's the lobby and a bit of vote-swallowing and campaign money-making but put frankly, they're wrong. Even the view that it's as simple as loyalty left over after the cold war would be over simplistic and hence, also wrong.

Simply put, it's all of the above. Also, the US only changes foreign policy when it has a reason to do so or sees a major advantage in doing so (a pivot point - and militarily, not financially). In forty years, neither side in this conflict has particularly given them a military reason for switching support. I'm still being too simplistic but the points above are a good jumping off zone for further reading.

Much appreciated. Thanks for talking the time to suggest all the above.
Cheers.

meditraitor

sceptre wrote: »

Apparently my underlying theme wasn't obvious enough. Ah well.

Let's presume there wasn't an underlying theme that dealt strictly with the cheerleading (which I'm hoping some will notice). While one shower are marshalling the populace into what's been described as the largest concentration camp in the world, the other side are firing missiles out. Both sides are leading their own people to what may well be their own destruction. That's opinion. Both sides consider that their version of god is on their side. That's retarded. Both sides have their own group of cheerleaders in the west, eager to ignore the nasty things done by the side they support and eager to highlight the nasty things done by ths side they don't. That's, well, plain myopic. And part of the problem, not the solution. That's what cheerleading and finger-pointing does. Sure, finger point at the wrongs. That means doing it to both sides where appropriate, not just to one. Only cranks ignore the sty in their own eye to point at the plank in the other guy's (yes, I know what I did there). That's the problem. Semi-organised international idiotic cheerleading. And the worst thing is that those who are doing it can't see anything wrong with it because you know, their chosen side is like, right and all that. I can at least see the point in people living there having a limited vista - they're stuck with the terror of the other side, whichever one it is. There's no excuse for that outside of the area though. None whatever.


As for the early question about why the support is there from the US, there's certainly a pro-Israeli lobby. What influence it has is a matter of opinion. However, it's worth remembering that the US has a policy of acquiescence to the Balfour declaration, despite their not liking it, and there may have been a measure of guilt after WW2, with their realisation that if they'd pushed their case there might have been less jewish deaths in that war. That's part one. Secondly, US support was largely neutral towards Israel (despite being an early recogniser of the state) in the 50s and most of the 60s. One only has to look at the Suez crisis for that (for anyone not familiar with it, look it up but the short version is that the US supported Egypt). That's part 2. However, with the Soviets financially backing the Arab states throughout the 60s and Israel pushing them back in 1967, the US started to give more financial support to Israel as the first example of a state that actually beat the Soviet-backed opposition. You can pretty much see the change in policy around then as US relations with Egypt weren't warmed by Cairo's expulsion of Soviet ambassadors in 1972. Israel has been the largest recipient of US foreign aid every year since 1976. That's part three. The "lobby" has been considered as a force since, partly due to having the same basic values (in a simple sense) as the Christian right, with whom they've been allied on a number of issues. That's part four. The conspiracy theorists might say that the disappearance of the Kennedys as a major force in US politics had quite a bit to do with the rise in aid but I rather doubt that myself, correlation not being causation. Notably Kissinger said that in the Yom Kippur war, if Israel had struck first, they wouldn't have received "so much as a nail".

That's the short answer. The "lobby" answer on its own is completely oversimplistic in my view but as you can see from above I've got something of a more grey than black and white view about the whole thing anyway. The black and white lobby will just say it's the lobby and a bit of vote-swallowing and campaign money-making but put frankly, they're wrong. Even the view that it's as simple as loyalty left over after the cold war would be over simplistic and hence, also wrong.

Simply put, it's all of the above. Also, the US only changes foreign policy when it has a reason to do so or sees a major advantage in doing so (a pivot point - and militarily, not financially). In forty years, neither side in this conflict has particularly given them a military reason for switching support. I'm still being too simplistic but the points above are a good jumping off zone for further reading.

The undelying theme is still not clear to me, a lot of words but nothing really being said....

What are really saying here?

Dont take it the wrong way, I just dont understand the point your trying to make in reply to the op

meditraitor

What I am trying to get across and probably not clearly is this

Is this happening?

The restriction of water to a million people..... see op

And if so is it not alright for people to blow their trumpet about it? Or to be disgusted enough to shout abotu it albiet on their keyboard!

Maybe I read it wrong.... if so please ignore

sceptre

meditraitor wrote: »

The undelying theme is still not clear to me, a lot of words but nothing really being said....

What are really saying here?

Dont take it the wrong way, I just dont understand the point your trying to make in reply to the op

Well the point I'm making is very simple. And yes, there are a lot of words and there's something quite pointed being said, regardless of whether you understand the point or not.

Here's most of the point, using far fewer words:
Both sides are doing nasty things. Both sides have been doing nasty things to each other for a long time. For some reason, people are often blindly supporting one side in this period of nasty things - ignoring what's being done by the side they support while condemning what's hting done by the side they dislike. That doesn't make any sense. It makes the problem live longer. It keeps the problem alive. It's silly.

Now I realise that the above doesn't contain much of the criticism I included in previous posts but I'd suggest going back to the actual posts for that as I wrote them the way I did for a good reason. Blindly supporting one side while ignoring the wrongs perpetrated by that side is plain idiotic. While that happens, we'll be revisiting the same problem for the next sixty years. And that's idiotic too.

I can make it simpler but I'm hoping I don't have to.

Nodin

That rather presupposes a parity of ability and aggression on both sides. Hamas being unlovely fundamentalists and firing infrequent bottle rockets doesn't really equal 40 years of brutality systematic colonisation and slow drip ethnic cleansing on the other lots part. They were doing in fact before Hamas existed, before Hezbollah existed, and were either or both to vanish, doubtless it would continue with another excuse inserted.

In addition, and rather unfortunately, only one side is truly isolated internationally. There is thus a need to get across exactly how 'not like us' Israel is.

FlutterinBantam

Even I can understand that.

Pity others can't.

wes

While, I agree with a lot being said above, it only really works if both sides are exactly equal in terms of power. There is always a clear power inbalance between an occupier and the occupied, ignoring this difference, isn't helpful either imho.

There is a clearly a greater sense of urgency with the Palestinian situation, seeing as they don't have basic water supplies for example, this can't be ignored. Yes, Hamas needs to be condemned and there actions stopped, but I think there is a world of difference between the the results of the actions of Hamas, and the Israeli government, the both clearly don't have the same effect. There are people in Southern Israel who are traumatized and have had there homes damaged or destroyed, and this is appalling. However, with the Palestinians, they have also be traumatized, we have a lot more homes, infrastructure, factories, and more destroyed, and the water infrastructure on the brink of collapses, you can't possibly tell me that the situations of the 2 groups comparable.

I honestly can't see a group of people lacking one of the basic neccessities of life being in any position ot make peace (again see Maslows Hierarchy of Needs), and I think ignoring the humanitrian disaster of the Palestinians is a massive mistake. The water situation for them should be addressed as a matter of urgency, and ignoring it will ensure that peace will not be achieved.

T runner

sceptre wrote: »

Let's presume there wasn't an underlying theme that dealt strictly with the cheerleading (which I'm hoping some will notice). While one shower are marshalling the populace into what's been described as the largest concentration camp in the world, the other side are firing missiles out. Both sides are leading their own people to what may well be their own destruction.

I dont see how Israels actions are leading to their own destruction. A few stray missiles isnt going to destroy Israel. On the other hand all thats left of Palestine in reality is the thirsty population.

Both sides consider that their version of god is on their side. That's retarded.

First of all please dont use that word, its disrespectful.
Second of all, the conflict is fundamentally one of land, not religion.

Both sides have their own group of cheerleaders in the west, eager to ignore the nasty things done by the side they support and eager to highlight the nasty things done by ths side they don't.

EXamples please. Do you mean individuals or governments?

Sure, finger point at the wrongs. That means doing it to both sides where appropriate, not just to one. Only cranks ignore the sty in their own eye to point at the plank in the other guy's (yes, I know what I did there). That's the problem. Semi-organised international idiotic cheerleading. And the worst thing is that those who are doing it can't see anything wrong with it because you know, their chosen side is like, right and all that. I can at least see the point in people living there having a limited vista - they're stuck with the terror of the other side, whichever one it is. There's no excuse for that outside of the area though. None whatever.

The wrongs: Palestine is annexed and millions of Palestinians are evicted to refugee camps, ouside the new state of Israel. Some have been in camps ever since.

A continued and deliberate military suppression of the entire Palestinian population for political motives.

Suicide bombs by Palestinian extremists killing innocent Israelies and giving the Israelies the excuse to continue bulldozing their people at will.

Same to a less extent re: the missiles.

Simply put, it's all of the above. Also, the US only changes foreign policy when it has a reason to do so or sees a major advantage in doing so (a pivot point - and militarily, not financially). In forty years, neither side in this conflict has particularly given them a military reason for switching support. I'm still being too simplistic but the points above are a good jumping off zone for further reading

.

Ther dont have to switch support they have to STOP supporting Israel.

Israel have it in their power to end this conflict. They have all the trump cards. They continue simply because it is in their political interest to do so and because they can get away with it as long as the US continues to supprt them: in effect protecting them from meaningful international sanction.

FlutterinBantam

Noeleen Hartigan of Amnesty just got blown out of the water by the Israeli dep. Amb on this issue on Mary Wilson's prog. RTE1.

Conformed what I always knew from my experience there.

Lawless thugs much the same as NI using the conflict to hold the people to ransom for their own criminal activities.

irish_bob

Biggins wrote: »

As an impartial observer of the whole mess - can anyone please explain to me why, just why America supports Israel more so much?
Is Israel quietly sitting on oil or uranium???
Genuine question - why the steadfast support for Israel ?

the israeli lobby is extremley influential in washington , it is also very influential in all sections of the media in the usa , also , israel is like a watchtower for america to keep an eye on the mid east

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Lawless thugs much the same as NI using the conflict to hold the people to ransom for their own criminal activities.

The IDF? I agree.

diverdriver

Israel have it in their power to end this conflict. They have all the trump cards.

No they don't. They are a tiny population surrounded by hostile countries whose only desire is to wipe them from the face of the Earth. The only things, the only things keeping keeping them from being wiped off the face of the map is their own fighting prowess in numerous wars and America's support.

Those of you who advocate withdrawal of American support and sanctions against them by Europe should know what that it will result in another holocaust and ethnic cleansing on a scale only seen once before such is the hatred whipped up by their Arab neighbours.

Now you can argue that it's their own actions that brought them to this. Indeed they haven't endeared themselves by their actions of late. But being close to extermination does concentrate the mind somewhat. You can also argue that Israel shouldn't exist. Well it does and they did by themselves despite often zero support from the west and outright hostility from the Arabs who they consistently defeated despite holding no trump cards at all. Israel isn't going away without a fight therefore it's right to exist needs to be recognised by surrounding countries.

As for the Palestinians, well as the saying goes 'They never seem to miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity'. Particularly now in Gaza which is now controlled by what is effectively a fundamentalist terrorist organisation who are using Gaza's population as cover for their ambitions.

So where does the answer lie? Negotiation of course and compromise of course. Neither side seem particularly willing to do that given their history. Yet it's the only way. You just have to wonder how deep the bloodbath has to be before they cry enough.

callig

dlofnep wrote: »

The US should end their unlimited spending on military aid for Israel.

and we know what the chances of that happening are!

If seen to be in the strategic interests of the United States, Washington is quite willing to support the most flagrant violation of international law and human rights by its allies and block the United Nations or any other party from challenging it. No ethnic lobby or ideological affinity is necessary to motivate policymakers to do otherwise.

http://www.fpif.org/papers/usisrael.html

The question is how do we find a way to stop the US from putting it's own interests ahead of resolving the conflict.

The Saint

Wow, what a load of claptrap.

diverdriver wrote: »

No they don't. They are a tiny population surrounded by hostile countries whose only desire is to wipe them from the face of the Earth. The only things, the only things keeping keeping them from being wiped off the face of the map is their own fighting prowess in numerous wars and America's support.

Those of you who advocate withdrawal of American support and sanctions against them by Europe should know what that it will result in another holocaust and ethnic cleansing on a scale only seen once before such is the hatred whipped up by their Arab neighbours.

Now you can argue that it's their own actions that brought them to this. Indeed they haven't endeared themselves by their actions of late. But being close to extermination does concentrate the mind somewhat. You can also argue that Israel shouldn't exist. Well it does and they did by themselves despite often zero support from the west and outright hostility from the Arabs who they consistently defeated despite holding no trump cards at all. Israel isn't going away without a fight therefore it's right to exist needs to be recognised by surrounding countries.

As for the Palestinians, well as the saying goes 'They never seem to miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity'. Particularly now in Gaza which is now controlled by what is effectively a fundamentalist terrorist organisation who are using Gaza's population as cover for their ambitions.

So where does the answer lie? Negotiation of course and compromise of course. Neither side seem particularly willing to do that given their history. Yet it's the only way. You just have to wonder how deep the bloodbath has to be before they cry enough.

dlofnep

diverdriver wrote: »

No they don't.

Yes they do. Halt their illegal settlements, stop harassing the Palestinian people, halt it's blockade and remove all it's people from the occupied territories.

If they do the above, the majority of the Palestinian people will be happy.

Israel is the main cause of the conflict, not Palestine.

A Dub in Glasgo

sceptre wrote: »

Well the point I'm making is very simple. And yes, there are a lot of words and there's something quite pointed being said, regardless of whether you understand the point or not.

Here's most of the point, using far fewer words:
Both sides are doing nasty things. Both sides have been doing nasty things to each other for a long time. For some reason, people are often blindly supporting one side in this period of nasty things - ignoring what's being done by the side they support while condemning what's hting done by the side they dislike. That doesn't make any sense. It makes the problem live longer. It keeps the problem alive. It's silly.

Which is exactly the reason people should be calling for a consistent response from the world powers. Unfortunately, the world powers have shown themselves to be incapable of a consistent response therefore people will rightly pick up on that.

Nodin

diverdriver wrote: »

Those of you who advocate withdrawal of American support and sanctions against them by Europe should know what that it will result in another holocaust and ethnic cleansing on a scale only seen once before such is the hatred whipped up by their Arab neighbours..

Nope, I think not. Don't see what that has to do with them inflicting vast suffering on the populace of Gaza either.

diverdriver wrote: »

You can also argue that Israel shouldn't exist. ..

I'm not sure if thats a red herring or a straw man....

diverdriver wrote: »

As for the Palestinians, well as the saying goes 'They never seem to miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity'. Particularly now in Gaza which is now controlled by what is effectively a fundamentalist terrorist organisation who are using Gaza's population as cover for their ambitions.
..

...because Gaza was such a bed of roses before Hamas came along. And of course we've seen the "peace dividend" that Abbas has gotten for keeping his people in check in the west bank. Lots of lovely new houses and apartments. All for Israeli settlers of course, but they can look at them from a safe distance, and sure what more do ye want....

Overheal

Im guessing, for the whole thing, its all religious. There are only an estimated 13.2 Milllion Jews Worldwide. Thats a surprisingly low figure, to me. 5.6m of them live in Israel; 6.4m live in the United States. together they make up 72% of the Entire Jewish population on the Globe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

Throw onto this, the staggering religious significance of the West Bank. As far as Holy Ground goes, it doesnt get more holy than that. Rome can kiss its balls.

I think it transcends Votes and Politics. This is - quite frankly it comes this close to being an Ecunemical matter, Ted.


You cant just pull out support. It becomes the Second Holocaust. Would the Jewish faith even be able to survive it? Nor do any of you honestly believe they would ever accept relocation because it would mean giving up Jerusalem: There isnt a chance in hell the Palestinians would ever agree to let them back there for pilgrimages or anything else for that matter, if that became the case.

Sand

@meditraitor

The undelying theme is still not clear to me, a lot of words but nothing really being said....

What are really saying here?

Dont take it the wrong way, I just dont understand the point your trying to make in reply to the op

What I believe hes trying to say is this:

Two or three times a month, a thread is posted by someone which links to a news story regarding Israel, where Israel is criticised or blamed or something.

A comment along the lines of " This is terrible. What terrible cruel evil things those Israelis do to those poor suffering Palestinians. Wont somebody do something?"

Once the call goes out then the gang show up, posting a series of "Yes, that is terrible" to "Well what would you expect from monsters who would do X, Y, Z" linking to another story where Israel has done something cruel and evil, feeding the development of the threads theme.

After about 1-2 pages, when everyone has exchanged thanks on each others posts and agreed with everyone else, mission accomplished, the thread then drops off the radar until another two or three weeks passes and something else is linked to and the same "Damn those heartless bastards!" thread appears.

Every now and then, someone makes the mistake of engaging ( I plead guilty of doing so a couple of time). An epic death spiral of a thread then develops, anything up to 20 pages as anything other than the Israelis giving the Palestinians anything and everything they want is denounced as surrender to inhuman evil. Eventually someone throws their hands up in disgust at the insanity and moves on, swearing never to make the mistake of trying to reason with the fanatics ever again.

The thread then drops off the rader until another two or three weeks passes and something else is linked to and the same "Damn those heartless bastards!" thread appears.

Everyone feels good. Either we've sounded off on the right side of history, or if a death spiral develops then we're on familiar ground - Christ, some of the "points" on the this thread are like old friends at this point...

So we get to have our heated dinner party discussion, making sure were sure were right and the others are wrong...arguing over insignificant details like "who started it?!?!" Seriously...who started it is about as advanced as discussion can get.

And in the meantime, not a single thing has changed. Not an iota achieved.

Anyway, see ya on the next "Oh God, arent they so terribly evil!" thread.

dlofnep

UN calls on Israel to halt demolition of Palestinian homes
UNITED NATIONS, Oct. 27 (Xinhua) -- The United Nations on Tuesday called on Israel to immediately halt forced evictions and demolitions of Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem, warning that as many as 60,000 people there may be at risk of forced evictions, demolitions and displacement.

Israeli authorities demolished the homes of six Palestinian families - 26 people, including 10 children - in East Jerusalem on Tuesday. This brings the number displaced through forced evictionsor house demolitions in the occupied Palestinian territory (oPt) to 600, half of them children, since the beginning of the year, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) reported.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-10/28/content_12343927.htm

What right has Israel to evict people from their own homes?

dlofnep

Sand wrote: »

@meditraitor


What I believe hes trying to say is this:

Two or three times a month, a thread is posted by someone which links to a news story regarding Israel, where Israel is criticised or blamed or something.

truncated for absurdity

Blame Israel's acts of terror, and not us for bringing their acts of terror to light. What Israel is doing is flat out WRONG. If you have an issue with us highlighting this, then tough. We won't be silenced. We have every right to discuss these issues.

You should be more worried about the fact that issues like the above are routinely happening the Palestinian people, instead of worrying about us routinely reporting on them.

Overheal

dlofnep wrote: »

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-10/28/content_12343927.htm

What right has Israel to evict people from their own homes?

What right has Palestine to evict the Israelis from Israel


Thats a serious question btw.

The Saint

Overheal wrote: »

What right has Palestine to evict the Israelis from Israel


Thats a serious question btw.

They have no right to do it. They are not doing it. Bizare question.

Overheal

I just naturally assumed they wanted the Israelis to die or otherwise be eradicated from the face of the earth or something.

The Saint

Overheal wrote: »

I just naturally assumed they wanted the Israelis to die or otherwise be eradicated from the face of the earth or something.

Well as Oscar Wilde said "When you assume, you make an ass out or u and me". I think Palestinians would be quite happy with having their own state based on the internationally recognised, legal borders. I'm sure there are some Palestinians that would like to eradicate the Jews there, just as there are Israeli Jews that would want to do the same to the Palestinians. The thing is that not all people on both sides are mental cases. They are thankfully the minority. It's also not very helpful to generalise an entire group of people.

callig

dlofnep wrote: »

Blame Israel's acts of terror, and not us for bringing their acts of terror to light. What Israel is doing is flat out WRONG. If you have an issue with us highlighting this, then tough. We won't be silenced. We have every right to discuss these issues.

You should be more worried about the fact that issues like the above are routinely happening the Palestinian people, instead of worrying about us routinely reporting on them.

You have to remember it is US support that enables Israel to carry on the way it does. We can scream and shout until we are blue in the face about Israel's behaviour but nothing will come of it as long as the US deem Israel to be a strategic asset.
I am extremely sad to say it, but I don't think there is any hope we will see peace in the region. Americans are not going to act against thier own best interests and the world doesn't have the stones to confront the US so the conflict will just drag on and on.

Sand

Blame Israel's acts of terror, and not us for bringing their acts of terror to light. What Israel is doing is flat out WRONG. If you have an issue with us highlighting this, then tough. We won't be silenced. We have every right to discuss these issues.

You should be more worried about the fact that issues like the above are routinely happening the Palestinian people, instead of worrying about us routinely reporting on them.

Whose "us"?

Also your post is nonsense.

FlutterinBantam

Sand wrote: »

Whose "us"?

Also your post is nonsense.

I have been wondering about that too Sand.

Reminds me of Northern Ireland, they even paint the kerbs here too.

wes

Sand wrote: »

Every now and then, someone makes the mistake of engaging ( I plead guilty of doing so a couple of time).

A couple ? Your here in most of the threads, and in half of them you complain about people posting in these threads, despite the fact your posting in most of these threads. Its truly mind boggling that every couple of months or so, you decide to complain about people posting in these threads, despite the fact you post in them as well.

You do realize, that you probably make it more likely that people will post in these thread, with your occassional rants against people posting in them (all the while posting in them yourself).

dlofnep

Sand wrote: »

Whose "us"?

Read the thread. You're a smart boy. I'm sure you can sort out the 'we' from the 'you'.

Sand wrote: »

Also your post is nonsense.

No, it wasn't. It made perfect sense.

dlofnep

Overheal wrote: »

What right has Palestine to evict the Israelis from Israel

Palestinians aren't evicting Israeli's from Israel. I'm not sure what your point is.

jank

Sand wrote: »

Also your post is nonsense.

Well Sand its a free country. If you dont like the death spiral of these posts just ignore other wise you are an accomplice and are just as guilty as everyone else.

Leave the moralising aside for a minute and maybe comment on the subject matter at hand.

arybvtcw0eolkf

The Saint wrote: »

Wow, what a load of claptrap.

Your better than that and you know it, why not answer him.

As you know I'm a staunch supporter of Israel, I rarely get involved in these thread's here as they only ever really go one way - that is 'dlofnep posts up something, which is then 'thanked' by Wes, Nodin & Brianthebard, followed by the same from each of those guys and the circle is continued in each and every one of these threads (I wouldn't call them 'discussions') on Israel.

However you usually stand head and shoulders above this carry on, I was waiting for your input because its usually educated and informative, however this lets you down and I'm disappointed.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

@meditraitor


What I believe hes trying to say is this:

Two (..........)thread.

You could apply that to a good 3/4's of the posts on the politics forum. It would appear to me you're indulging in sophistry.

Overheal wrote:

I just naturally assumed they wanted the Israelis to die or otherwise be eradicated from the face of the earth or something. .

I'd suggest you look up whats meant by 'the settlements' and 'the occupation'.

Miley Salmon Door wrote:

As you know I'm a staunch supporter of Israel, I rarely get involved in these thread's here as they only ever really go one way .....

...because when you do, you post the same Kahanist myths about the Palestinians, they're comprehensively refuted and you haven't the decency to acknowledge same before heading for the hills? Yep.

The Saint

Miley Salmon Door wrote: »

Your better than that and you know it, why not answer him.

As you know I'm a staunch supporter of Israel, I rarely get involved in these thread's here as they only ever really go one way - that is 'dlofnep posts up something, which is then 'thanked' by Wes, Nodin & Brianthebard, followed by the same from each of those guys and the circle is continued in each and every one of these threads (I wouldn't call them 'discussions') on Israel.

However you usually stand head and shoulders above this carry on, I was waiting for your input because its usually educated and informative, however this lets you down and I'm disappointed.

Sorry Mairt but I'm pretty sick of correcting the most elementary facts in these threads and it gets very frustrating refuting the whole "surrounded by states that want to destroy Israel" line. If someone diesn't even have a basic knowledge of the situation it's very difficult going over the same ground that has been covered ad infinitum. The guy hasn't even bothered to come back either.

However, just for you (cos I have a soft spot for you) I recommend that the poster read up on the 2002 Arab Peace initiative that has repeatedly offered full peace, recognition and normalisation of relations to Israel for a return to it's legal borders which has essentially been ignored by Israel.

Also, I find these threads frustrating as they always end up going round and round covering the same ground on the history and current events rather than dealing with the initial subject of the post, ie. water. It would be nice if they managed to stay on topic rather getting dragged into the same crap. Perhaps it's something the mods could look at.

dlofnep

Miley Salmon Door wrote: »

As you know I'm a staunch supporter of Israel

I like you Mairt, I might even let you ippon me sometime. But - How can you support the illegal evictions of families, and the illegal settlements at their expenses? Surely, there is a line which you can draw.

You must surely see that Israel is breaking a number of international laws. They are expanding their territory and are not adhering to international law. By expanding, they are provoking the Palestinians.

I do hope you engage in the discussion. I have alot of respect for you as a person, and I'm very keen to hear your views.

You might see a re-occurring theme here on the forum. But ask yourself - Is it because of an unfounded racist agenda against Israel, or is it because time and time again, we continuously see wrongdoings by Israel and watch them get away with it, scot-free.

Now don't get me wrong - Hamas is also to blame for the violence. But evictions of families, and interfering with basic water provisions isn't anything to do with war. And that's where the line is drawn.

T runner

diverdriver wrote: »

No they don't. They are a tiny population surrounded by hostile countries whose only desire is to wipe them from the face of the Earth. The only things, the only things keeping keeping them from being wiped off the face of the map is their own fighting prowess in numerous wars and America's support.

Are you claiming that without America's support the Palestinians would wipe them from the face of the earth? Because Israel are not targetting other "hostile" countries they are targeting evry Palestinian civilian.

Those of you who advocate withdrawal of American support and sanctions against them by Europe should know what that it will result in another holocaust and ethnic cleansing on a scale only seen once before such is the hatred whipped up by their Arab neighbours.

If there is an illegal attack on Israel it is up to the UN (with America) to intervene. Israel can be protected from hostile armies. This is not the same thing as protecting Israel from sanctions due to human rights violations against an entire ethnic population.

We must deprive these downtrodden people of their water otherwise they will rise up and wipe us out.

BTW there have been ethnic cleansing of a large scale seen in post war Russia.

Now you can argue that it's their own actions that brought them to this. Indeed they haven't endeared themselves by their actions of late. But being close to extermination does concentrate the mind somewhat.

Did the Palestinians (the ones being targetted) try to exterminate Israelies? Why are Israel attacking them. Recent events looks like the other way around

You can also argue that Israel shouldn't exist.

That would not be an unsuprising viewpoint from Palestinians given how they have been treated but a large number or majority even of them would see a resolution involving an israeli state

Well it does and they did by themselves

(Dispossessed and expelled all Palestinians)

despite often zero support from the west

Why should anyone support the ethnic removal of a people from their home country?

Israel isn't going away without a fight therefore it's right to exist needs to be recognised by surrounding countries.

Otherwise Israel will continue exterminating and starving Palestinians?

As for the Palestinians, well as the saying goes 'They never seem to miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity'. Particularly now in Gaza which is now controlled by what is effectively a fundamentalist terrorist organisation who are using Gaza's population as cover for their ambitions.

What are you talking about? The vast majority of palestinians are downtrodded and semi starved. Why is israel cutting water supplies from tehse people??????

So where does the answer lie? Negotiation of course and compromise of course. Neither side seem particularly willing to do that given their history. Yet it's the only way. You just have to wonder how deep the bloodbath has to be before they cry enough

Before they cry enough? So the more Palestinians Israel kills the better the chances for Israel?

Please answer the question. Why is Israel cutting water supplies to Palestinians?

diverdriver

If someone diesn't even have a basic knowledge of the situation it's very difficult going over the same ground that has been covered ad infinitum. The guy hasn't even bothered to come back either.

Jaysus, give us a chance I have a life to lead outside the internet you know. But in any case I don't really need you to educate me about the situation. I'm quite aware of the history and am no cheerleader for many Israeli policies, indeed something I share with many Israelis. But it's clear to me many anti Israeli types apparently have no appreciation for the history of Israel and why they act as they do or the stark reality of what would happen to Israel it they were to take your 'advice'.

It would be nice if they managed to stay on topic rather getting dragged into the same crap.

What? You actually think this thread is about water to Gaza. It's another bash Israel thread in a long line of bash Israel threads. Sand put it very well. The whole thing is pointless as the same suspects with their simplistic solutions trot them out again and again. You said

I think Palestinians would be quite happy with having their own state based on the internationally recognised, legal borders.

dlfonep

Yes they do. Halt their illegal settlements, stop harassing the Palestinian people, halt it's blockade and remove all it's people from the occupied territories.

If they do the above, the majority of the Palestinian people will be happy.

Dear God, do you honestly believe that. Is your understanding of the situation so shallow that you actually believe the Palestinians and the wider Arab world will be happy with that situation? I'm actually laughing as I type this.

But to return the the original topic. Yes it is a bad thing if Israel is deliberately reducing water supply to the Palestinians. They shouldn't do it and it's not helping their cause. Not least because it give ammunition to the anti Israeli trendies like yourselves. But I do wonder just how deliberate it is?

Anyway carry on with hating Israel until you find another cause.

wes

diverdriver wrote: »

But to return the the original topic. Yes it is a bad thing if Israel is deliberately reducing water supply to the Palestinians. They shouldn't do it and it's not helping their cause. Not least because it give ammunition to the anti Israeli trendies like yourselves. But I do wonder just how deliberate it is?

So you more concerned with people criticizing Israel (due to there own actions), as opposed to the people who are suffering due to them having inadequate water supplies? Interesting priorities there.

Maybe, Israel shouldn't be reducing the Palestinian water supplies, as it violates all kinds of international laws, human rights and that it is simply wrong to deny people the basic necessities of life, and as an added plus, people won't criticise them for doing it.

Seems a bit ridiculous for people to be complaining about people commenting in this thread, when people are being denied sufficent water. Just seems all kinds of messed up to me.

diverdriver

T runner wrote: »

diverdriver wrote: »

Are you claiming that without America's support the Palestinians would wipe them from the face of the earth? Because Israel are not targetting other "hostile" countries they are targeting evry Palestinian civilian.

Sigh:rolleyes: Clearly you never heard of Iran, Syria etc etc.

If there is an illegal attack on Israel it is up to the UN (with America) to intervene. Israel can be protected from hostile armies. This is not the same thing as protecting Israel from sanctions due to human rights violations against an entire ethnic population.

You think the UN would protect it. It never did before. Only American support protects them and their own fighting ability. Read your history: The Yom Kippur war, the Six Day war.

We must deprive these downtrodden people of their water otherwise they will rise up and wipe us out.

I said they shouldn't do that

BTW there have been ethnic cleansing of a large scale seen in post war Russia.

Rubbish, show me proof.

Did the Palestinians (the ones being targetted try to exterminate Israelies? Recent events looks like the other way around)?

You've heard of Hamas, look them up. You've heard of Iran, check out the speeched of their leader! In general many Arab and Muslim countries want to eliminate Israel.

That would not be an unsuprising viewpoint from Palestinians given how they have been treated but a large number or majority even of them would see a resolution involving an israeli state

You might say that but do they. Do you really think they are as reasonable as you.

(Dispossessed and expelled all Palestinians)

All? You have heard about the Arab Israeli citizens living in Israel.

Why should anyone support the ethnic removal of a people from their home country?

Indeed it's unsupportable but it happened, that's war. Would you support the removal of Jews from their country?

Otherwise Israel will continue exterminating and starving Palestinians?

Typical propaganda

What are you talking about? The vast majority of palestinians are downtrodded and semi starved. Why is israel cutting water supplies from tehse people???????

Read your history, draw your own conclusions.

Before they cry enough? So the more Palestinians Israel kills the better the chances for Israel?

Both sides, don't put words in my mouth.

Please answer the question. Why is Israel cutting water supplies to Palestinians?

I suggest you go to a good bookshop and read up on the subject. Don't get it off the internet from the likes of the people who post here. The history of Israel is complex and difficult. There are no good guys or bad guys here. When you have studied the subject come back here and ask your questions. Of course I know you won't, most people nowadays get the history lesson from the internet. That oh so reliable and unbiased source of information.:rolleyes:

You are asking me to defend Israel and their current policies. I cannot and will not. But you will never understand why such a seemingly hostile act as reducing the water supply can happen until you understand how it came to this.

diverdriver

So you more concerned with people criticizing Israel (due to there own actions), as opposed to the people who are suffering due to them having inadequate water supplies? Interesting priorities there.

Typical internet reply, ignore the point made and then make a veiled ah hominen attack.

You are also asking us to believe that the people like you posting here are actually simply concerned with the water issue and that you don't have an underlying anti Israeli stance. Dlofnep has laid his cards firmly on the table and uses every opportunity to have a go at Israel. Whether he really cares about the plight of the Palestinians is quite another matter.

We all know what this thread is about, Sand called it and so am I. Stop pretending.