Home Automation and Structured Wiring (help required!)

liamolaighin

I will be building a two storey 3000 sq/ft house in the next few months and I'd like to future proof my house. As impressed as I am by all of the automated control systems out there and by the companies who fit new builds with automated systems and structured wiring they are just way too expensive. Ideally I'd like to design a system that would suit my needs, install the wiring myself and go from there.

I know that the wiring is not that expensive i.e Cat 5 , co-ax, speaker cable etc and I'll run this generously around the house and back to the utility where the central hub will be located (hopefully!). What I really need is someone to advise me as to what to run where taking future technology into consideration. i.e can you overkill the Cat 5 & co-ax etc to tv points.

So if say I want to automate lighting downstairs does all my lighting have to be routed back through hub in utility and onto fusebox. Maybe with a view to automating it later on. Is there particular wire required in this scenario or more than the standard run if i want dimmer control in future...

Should I run some kind of cable to windows in living areas in case i ever wanted to automate blinds? Or even every window in house. I know theres systems which will open/close everything at touch of a button but at present they are too expensive to look at. They are not even necessary but still maybe I'll look differently at it if im ever immobile etc... Again must this all be run back to/through the hub even if i'm not automating right now?

For audio/video and data distribution again how much cable is absolutely required. i.e 2 Cat 5 or 3 or 4 or similarly with co-ax at each t.v point. Should I be looking at fibre optic anywhere or everywhere?? I know all this will come back through hub it's just a question of what do i need in terms of cable to future proof tv points, internet points, phone points....etc

What needs to be run around the house if for I.R control of devices if they are all in central location. I'd imagine i'd like in future to have a network hard drive sitting on the network with music and movies stored theron. So the skybox maybe, DVD player etc might be put into hub for central control. Or does it make more sence to have a central entertainment centre at your main TV and run the feed from that TV back to a splitter in the hub..? Maybe.

Anyway id love to install the system myself, and terminate everything myself especially at the build stage. I can always get a techie in after to put in a control 4/creston system. I'd just like to have the house prepped and have basic functionality of broadband tv and multi zone audio from beginning. So does anyone reckon I should just buy the cable and materials required and go for it or is it too much of a complex task. Theres loads of online dealers etc and i'd be ok at the old DIY! Anyone know any electricians in Cork area who would be seriously in the know about this stuff??? Or even someone who could sit down with me and my plans and design the structured wiring system?

mazthespark

a tip for future automation everything back to a central location. that way no matter what you want to do its covered. for lighting the best thing to do is wire all your lighting circuits back to your fuseboard. but also feed them in the usual way by looping switches together and a switch wire up to the circuits (leave cable back to board from first light disconnected). also run a cat 5 to every light switch back to your hub. 2 if needed. depending on how much is controlled from there. aim to put maybe 2 cat 5/ 2 coax minimum behind each tv. and more at main tv points 4/6 of each. speakers all depend on what you want them to do and how you lay them out. id have a fair idea of what to put in depending on what you want, im a sparkie and have an interest in home automation but like you no interest in paying millions to do it. hope this helps pm me if u need any more info

liamolaighin

I am planning exactly that kind of system now. Anyone know of a qualified electrician in the West Cork or Cork city area who does structured wiring too. Please pm me a name and contact details if you do.

Steve

+1 to what mazthespark said.
Run everything back to a terminal box, lights, switches, sockets, the lot. You can then modify switching / add relays or contactors / install intelligent controllers or whatever you want and more importantly modify the setup at time without having to open ceilings or walls.
I'd also run wires for a number of alternate lighting schemes even if you're not going to use them yet, at this point in a build installing cable is cheap and you'll thank yourself when you want to change something that didn't turn out as expected.
Ditto for speaker and cat5 (or cat6 if you want to be more future proof) but in saying that, wireless technology can alleviate the need for a lot of the IT wiring.
Another one to consider is wiring for heating zones (motor valves) and individual room thermostats can save a lot of cash by shutting down unused areas in the house. Don't forget an outside stat for frost protection.

I reckon It'll get to a point in about 5 years where this type of wiring becomes redundant as the emergence of wireless 'neural net' switches and actuators become affordable at a domestic level.

davelerave

frost-stat inside( coldest part of house or risk areas )where it can respond to rise in temperature.
+1 to everything else,home runs for flexibility and separate from mains cabling runs

Cosworth

I am a newly qualified electrician myself and am about to start building a house in the next month.
I too have looked into home automation and it is a minefield with limitless and some very expensive options.
What i have come up with so far for myself is not so much home automation but a list of extras that will make the house that bit easier/nicer to live in,

DATA POINTS
Min 2 in every room back to central location
Hope to have a mainserver/harddrive so movies/pictures/sound can be stored here and watched from around the house.
Wireless router points upstairs and downstairs.

TV POINTS
2 coaxials and 2 CAT5E to each TV point back to central location
1 coaxial back to outside NTL point
FM cable to aerial for radio signal
Speaker cables to each TV point for surround sound in that room
Scart leads/VGA leads/HDMI cables in walls for mounting of LCD TVs and projectors

SECURITY
CAT5E from security panel to main board,em lighting contact in board.
CAT5E from central location to security panel,for texting/digidialer.
Zone for garage
Zone for outside infra red beam etc
CAT5E and coaxial to several CCTV points back to central location
500 gig hard drive
Intercom and access control on main gate and doors
Keypads and panic buttons at all entry/exit doors


LIGHTING
CAT5E from each switch to central location for future dimming
Absence detectors in bathrooms
4 outsite lighting circuits controlled by HAND/OFF/AUTO switch and photocell
18+ Gang switch bank in central location to switch every room in the house
Emergency feed to each room for emergency lighting in case of power failure
Various feature LED lighting around house

SOUND
Speaker cable from every room back to central location.
Speaker cables to garden.

HEATING
Min 3 channel to seperatley heat downstairs rads,upstairs rads or just water.
Individual room stats and outside frost stat
Boiler controlled by GSM text to activate
Underfloor electric heating and towel rails in all bathrooms

POWER
Mains supply to garage,garage to have sub board
Changeover switch for generator
Supply for garden sockets etc
Supply to the all velux window motors

The central location will house the patch panel,main board,security panel and harddrive/server etc

Any more suggestions from anyone would be appreciated as i have only started looking into this and really want to futre proof the house.

Gary

nooneuno

Hey Cosworth! Are you going to draw up the plans yourself for the wiring ?

rodred

i have received a price for a full structured cabling system
supplied and fitted.
tv/data/phone points in each room of the house, speaker cables to every
room, 2no. home cinema's wired, cctv cables, tv distribution, all wired back to central location,
4.5k
is this a good price can anyone tell me??
1450sqft house.
anyone give me some idea of what sort of price i should be looking
to pay for this sort of system.
thanks a million

nooneuno

Save yourself 4.5k and do the wiring yourself. It's not too hard!

soldsold

Interesting thread.

Do any of you know of a useful, up to date website with wiring details (for novices) of the stuff mentioned above - ie fairly comprehensive home automation but using diy and not needing an electronics degree to get it all to work?

I am roofing an extension that includes a dining room, 2 living rooms, kitchen, hall, cinema room, bathroom and bedroom and am planning on diy wiring a stable, useful automation system that is future proof, fairly easy to follow for later upgrades etc.

My plan is for the cinema room to have electric blinds on the velux windows, pir's in the hall for late night bathroom use, basic external security including recording all movement around the house, sonos wireless music in most rooms, individual room thermostats with sms control and a basic automated lighting system.

i dont mind spending money on the cables but dont want to throw money at expensive systems, I'm looking for the sweetspot of cost vs usefulness and robustness of the system.

Thanks!

Steve

congo_90

Run wires for alarms and smoke alarms especially in risk areas like the utility room where your keeping all that gear/ washing machine etc.
Perhaps set up a dedicated line for dialers to work for alarms too.

Buford T Justice

Cosworth wrote: »

TV POINTS
2 coaxials and 2 CAT5E to each TV point back to central location
1 coaxial back to outside NTL point
FM cable to aerial for radio signal
Speaker cables to each TV point for surround sound in that room
Scart leads/VGA leads/HDMI cables in walls for mounting of LCD TVs and projectors

Run at least two Co-Ax (I'd recommend RG59, and terminate them all with BNC connections or at least "F" connectors, they are good and solid, and you can put adaptors on them for standard RF, most switchers will use BNC anyway) cables outside, as you may well run to Sky HD or Sky+ any time in the future. They require two cables. Also, in case one deteriorates over time. In fact, i'd run three to be on the safe side. It'll be cheaper in the long run.


In terms of data cables, anywhere you have a lighting point (Light Switch) or a data point (obviously) or a TV, Video DVD - Anything, I would run at least one Cat 5E Cable. This will cover you for anything you want in the future. Eg, if you want to change your lightswitches to Crestron display panels etc..... they will do it. Its also worth considering running the cabling to a point in the ceiling in case you decide to go with a projector in the future, will save a lot of hassle.

I've done this work on an industrial scale (lecture theaters, Confrence facilities fully automated) and it is a benefit to run extra cable, cos there is always one you forget. Cat 5 can also be used to carry IR signals to the TV, you will just need to stick an emitter on the TV. However, I don't like the look of these little things sticking out the front of the Telly. If you are going with Crestron or AMX automation, then I would seriously consider RS232 control for the TV. Most modern Flatscreens and projectors can be controlled by this.

liamolaighin

Anyone know if xantect have a showroom in ireland. I like the look of their AV distribution moduole and control features

http://www.xantech.com/files/app_diagrams/11_MRC88_Dia_1.pdf

gmoyne

Have you looked at avnex.co.uk ?

gmoyne

Cosworth wrote: »

I am a newly qualified electrician myself and am about to start building a house in the next month.
I too have looked into home automation and it is a minefield with limitless and some very expensive options.
What i have come up with so far for myself is not so much home automation but a list of extras that will make the house that bit easier/nicer to live in,

DATA POINTS
Min 2 in every room back to central location
Hope to have a mainserver/harddrive so movies/pictures/sound can be stored here and watched from around the house.
Wireless router points upstairs and downstairs.

TV POINTS
2 coaxials and 2 CAT5E to each TV point back to central location
1 coaxial back to outside NTL point
FM cable to aerial for radio signal
Speaker cables to each TV point for surround sound in that room
Scart leads/VGA leads/HDMI cables in walls for mounting of LCD TVs and projectors

SECURITY
CAT5E from security panel to main board,em lighting contact in board.
CAT5E from central location to security panel,for texting/digidialer.
Zone for garage
Zone for outside infra red beam etc
CAT5E and coaxial to several CCTV points back to central location
500 gig hard drive
Intercom and access control on main gate and doors
Keypads and panic buttons at all entry/exit doors


LIGHTING
CAT5E from each switch to central location for future dimming
Absence detectors in bathrooms
4 outsite lighting circuits controlled by HAND/OFF/AUTO switch and photocell
18+ Gang switch bank in central location to switch every room in the house
Emergency feed to each room for emergency lighting in case of power failure
Various feature LED lighting around house

SOUND
Speaker cable from every room back to central location.
Speaker cables to garden.

HEATING
Min 3 channel to seperatley heat downstairs rads,upstairs rads or just water.
Individual room stats and outside frost stat
Boiler controlled by GSM text to activate
Underfloor electric heating and towel rails in all bathrooms

POWER
Mains supply to garage,garage to have sub board
Changeover switch for generator
Supply for garden sockets etc
Supply to the all velux window motors

The central location will house the patch panel,main board,security panel and harddrive/server etc

Any more suggestions from anyone would be appreciated as i have only started looking into this and really want to futre proof the house.

Gary

This area is somewhat of a field that I specialise in !
As you suggest and correctly so Automation can be a minefield, however there are many ways of making sure that everything works and that is making sure that cabling is sufficient to meet all future demands. Have you looked at www.knx.org and www.avnex.co.uk
You can always contact me if you wish I have no problem helping you, as information costs nothing ! Making sure you have a large enough consumer board is vital I generally use Merlin Gerin 900 x 600 they look big, but once you have populated a board with dimmers etc. you use the space up. I have often used two side by side !

Anyway, the main thing is to use lots of cable back to your source and run all lighting as radials from this point and also all switch wires back to the same point.

Oh yes about security check out texe.com they are based in UK and are the only company who individually test every piece of product made, also you can access panel via usb upload download. I use these panles, as one can utilise the outputs and timers on the panel for some automation functions. The panel can also be used as a fire control system !

Jnealon

All good advise here, you can never run too many cables. Be sure to use good quality cables, ct100 etc and if it too cheap more than likely there's a reason.
On the security side of it I would recommend you look at the Europlex Signet. It will do everything that the texecom kit can and a lot more.

gmoyne

Jnealon wrote: »

All good advise here, you can never run too many cables. Be sure to use good quality cables, ct100 etc and if it too cheap more than likely there's a reason.
On the security side of it I would recommend you look at the Europlex Signet. It will do everything that the texecom kit can and a lot more.

This respondent is truely correct and I would add that I am not a reseller of texecom products and Eurplex signet can do exactly what any texecom product or many many others can do, although, the more bit of any particular product I suppose relates to what you require as a user.

Secant in Canada and Elk in the US both produce products (as do many of the 350 companies belonging to KNX ) that will both control all HVac and Lighting and also Security. The Cardio panel by Secant will provide 16 zone HVac 16 Zone Intruder and presence detection and unlimited lighting control.

Again back to the original point that control of any system can be done by a zillion products it is down to what can be easily removed and replaced by anothe product in time as everything has a finite lifespan.

Also taking into account the users needs as technology changes which is faster than we can contemplate at times.

Tenshot

Loads of good advice on this thread.

A couple of additional points:

- Use different colours of CAT5 for things intended to be used for home automation (lighting, blind control, etc.) vs speaker control cables vs standard phone/data points (e.g. Blue / Green / Grey) -- makes it much easier to keep everything sorted when you're trying to get it all wired up, and also gives you a clue as to what's been affected if you accidentally damage a cable in a wall later on.

- For speakers, make sure you run all speaker cable back to a central point; I made the mistake of only running it through a wallbox, with CAT5 from there back to the central point, and it severely limited my options to the point where I am now retrofitting it the "proper" way.

- Would definitely go with CAT6 for the data/phone points; gives you more headroom for Gigabit Ethernet which is becoming increasingly common in the home. Wireless is fine, but you'll get more reliable, hassle free operation of things like video servers if they are wired directly to source instead of all competing for scarce 2.4 GHz airwaves. CAT5E is fine for control signals for lighting/heat/home automation.

tommyh1977

Run at least two Co-Ax (I'd recommend RG59, and terminate them all with BNC connections or at least "F" connectors, they are good and solid, and you can put adaptors on them for standard RF, most switchers will use BNC anyway) cables outside, as you may well run to Sky HD or Sky+ any time in the future. They require two cables. Also, in case one deteriorates over time. In fact, i'd run three to be on the safe side. It'll be cheaper in the long run.


Firstly let me introduce my background in this area. 15 Years as Pro- AV Installation Engineer. Currently we use systems such as Elan & Vantage for Multiroom AV & Clipsal or Dynalite for Lighting Control. RG59 is absolutely useless for video distribution. Screening is far too sparse for RF interference rejection & shielding. Use a good quality Quad Screened Cable such as Van Damme or Liberty Cable. It is far more expensive but you are putting this into your house for a minimum of 15 - 20 years so you need to fully future proof. For example 15 years ago all co-ax points within a house were wired using that cheap brown co-ax cable with one run to the living room and maybe one to the bedroom & kitchen. As we all know now that is absolutely useless today. If you really want to save time on installation of cable Liberty have a multicore video cable out which has 2 Co-ax & 2 CAT5E Cables in one sleeve. Someone else suggested using scart leads and HDMi in walls, again Scart Cables are far too unreliable to go burying them in walls. Use CAT5e & adaptors when the time comes. CAT5E run into switch boxes for lighting control must have a Mains rating on it for entry to the consumer unit. Clipsal carry such a cable as do Dynalite.

We always advise people regardless of who is first fixing the house (themselves, Electricians or our company) to get a full test on all cables before the house is closed up. It pays in the long run if you do not intend to fit system for another few years.

Hope this helps, but without meaning to disrespect any Electricians or Self Builders on here, we have spent too many days trying to retro fit equipment to houses that were "wired correctly for future proofing" with homeowners standing next to us pulling their hair out. To put it into perspective you wouldn't chance wiring a 3 phase board as a handy homeowner, this is no different even if it is low voltage. One thing i forgot to mention is ensure a minimum 450mm gap between AV / Data Cables & Mains Cables as they run thru attics etc.

gmoyne

The difficult thing about any form of automation is insuring no matter what you fit it can be retrofitted with something else. It is also important to note that many automation systems do not utilise an open langauge. What I mean by this is that you are confined to products only manufactured by the supplier of the automation equipment. the only globaly open langauge format currently available for automation is EIB Bus (www.knx.org) and DALI (Digital Addressable Lighting Interface) the products manufactured by the many hundreds of companies that use KNX and DALI are all interchangeable and can be utilised and mixed to suit the system required by the corporate or home user. Check out www.busch-jaeger.de this one of ABB's sister companies who are involved in the home automation business.with several hundred of the worlds largest manufacturing comanies such as Sneider and Jung,Bosch and Miele to name but a few, go to www.knx.org for a fll list of membes.

Anyhow, my committment to the automation industry is to plan your cabling so that no matter what you decide to put in the cable in the wall will be 99% effective. Remember you can run all audio and video on CAT cable (Line signal). Cehck out Avnex.co.uk for a cost effective matrix to distribute all audio and video using only a cat 5 network of cable. The audio signal for the purpose of being amplified for speakers is then added by puttng the cat cable into an amp with a cat module built in or the signal put into the input of a surround sound system.

There is degregation of signal on CAT cable and it carries digital signal without any problems. You can also run HDMI on CAT but it requires the use of two cables. This technology is in its infancy so it is best not to go there just yet, but it is improving.

The new terminal at the airport in Dublin will utilise KNX and DALI as does the new bridge over the liffey running LED Lighting and also the new Terminal 1 in London. The advantage of using KNX and or DALI is that it integrates completely Lighting HVAC and Security and can be fully accessed on IP gateway. The freedom is in not being confined and knowing there is full security given the current economic situation.
No right or wrong just different !

liamolaighin

Anyone know if there is any courses in ireland which teach you about the basics of planning and installing a home automation system? Pity i'm a bit old to go out on 'work experience' with anyone, but that would be the perfect way to pick it up!

Cosworth

tommyh1977 wrote: »

Run at least two Co-Ax (I'd recommend RG59, and terminate them all with BNC connections or at least "F" connectors, they are good and solid, and you can put adaptors on them for standard RF, most switchers will use BNC anyway).

I have been told not to run RG59 as it is only any good for CCTV,the RG59 is physically smaller and wont fit connectors for the sky+ box.

As far as i was aware RG59 is one of the lowest grades of COAX cable out there??????

I am running CAT6 for all data/phone ,CAT5E for lighting control and CAT5E and a commscope coax for TV points.

rolion

There is a course run by FAS or by a private college:
http://www.chevrontraining.ie/buildingsystems/

liamolaighin wrote: »

Anyone know if there is any courses in ireland which teach you about the basics of planning and installing a home automation system? Pity i'm a bit old to go out on 'work experience' with anyone, but that would be the perfect way to pick it up!

gmoyne

liamolaighin wrote: »

Anyone know if there is any courses in ireland which teach you about the basics of planning and installing a home automation system? Pity i'm a bit old to go out on 'work experience' with anyone, but that would be the perfect way to pick it up!

The difficulty with home automation systems and the course run to install them is the equipment available in colleges and schools including FAS.

Home automation is as much about common sense and also using the equipment which is not controlled by a single manufacturer. Kinda like putting all your money into a dodgy bank (if there was such a thing) if the company goes so does your home automation. I will not accept that companies can not go down. I have learned that lesson.

Check out www.knx.org I know I did the KNX automation course in Dungannon College but it is now also available in Dublin.

Good luck

kippy

Great thread guys plenty information here.
Amn't currently building a house but may be doing so one day, will have to keep threads like this as I will be aiming for some level of automation.
Well done guys. As every proving why boards is so useful.

Red Alert

Just to say if you are planning on doing multi-room sound, a lot of the 'packaged' solutions are very expensive for what they do. You'd probably be much better off with either new or used professional equipment - mixers, preamps and multi-channel amplifiers are very easy to get hold of online.

tommyh1977

Cosworth wrote: »

I have been told not to run RG59 as it is only any good for CCTV,the RG59 is physically smaller and wont fit connectors for the sky+ box.

As far as i was aware RG59 is one of the lowest grades of COAX cable out there??????

I am running CAT6 for all data/phone ,CAT5E for lighting control and CAT5E and a commscope coax for TV points.

FYI i was not recommending RG59 , only copied & pasted the previous post that had recommended RG59. Just wanted to clear that up.:)

tommyh1977

Red Alert wrote: »

Just to say if you are planning on doing multi-room sound, a lot of the 'packaged' solutions are very expensive for what they do. You'd probably be much better off with either new or used professional equipment - mixers, preamps and multi-channel amplifiers are very easy to get hold of online.

If you are going down the road of buying Pro Audio equipment, just make sure it has IR or RS232 control capabilities. Otherwise you will not be able to control it from your in-room keypad or remote control, instead you will have to use analogue controllers in every room just for audio which defeats the whole purpose of an integrated system. Plus you will require a much bigger rack of equipment. Lets say you use an Elan System 8 unit. This has 8 zones of A/V from one rack unit 4U high. To get this from individual equipment you would need, an 8 way video matrix switcher, 4 No. 4 channel amplifiers to give you 8 stereo zones, 1 Pre-amp / mixer. So you are looking at approx 12 - 16 U of rack space plus when you add up the cost of all those boxes and compare them to the Elan system you are not saving a whole pile, and you havent even got keypads.

gmoyne

Avnex in the UK manufacture amps and an AV Matrix which as I think I have said before in this thread does not require cabling other than CAT and of course speaker cable from the amps to the speakers. You can of course control the amps seperately on the matrix allowing yyou to stream sound from any input including sound from broadband or TV out to speakers, good if you want to listen to internet radio.
You can use any feed equipment or surround amps you like as the avnex cables come with both Ir sender and receivers built into the cable. This cuts down cost hugely and thus this is why the Avnex matrix makes for the most cost effective way of controlling all AV equipment on the market. check out www.avnex.co.uk I have an ipod and Mac on my matrix as inputs this allows me to have internet and DVD etc ect. on all my TV screens. The iMac can be controlled using the ipod remote which costs about € 20.

liamolaighin

Ok I've done alot of research and met a few different local companies here in Cork re home automation and to be honest I'm only getting more sceptical. Each seem intent on belittling the others technologies and I feel the prices are totally unrealistic.

I would like to wire my house for audio/video. I'd love to run HighDef to all the bedrooms for the sake of it, but defo to 2 main rooms downstairs. Audio to be run to around 8 zones. Also interested in smart lighting and possibly blind control in a few rooms downstairs. Maybe temp control depending on heating system going into the house when building. Everything run back to a central hub. Is it possible to achieve something like this for less than 10,000.

liamolaighin

gmoyne wrote: »

Avnex in the UK manufacture amps and an AV Matrix which as I think I have said before in this thread does not require cabling other than CAT and of course speaker cable from the amps to the speakers. You can of course control the amps seperately on the matrix allowing yyou to stream sound from any input including sound from broadband or TV out to speakers, good if you want to listen to internet radio.
You can use any feed equipment or surround amps you like as the avnex cables come with both Ir sender and receivers built into the cable. This cuts down cost hugely and thus this is why the Avnex matrix makes for the most cost effective way of controlling all AV equipment on the market. check out www.avnex.co.uk I have an ipod and Mac on my matrix as inputs this allows me to have internet and DVD etc ect. on all my TV screens. The iMac can be controlled using the ipod remote which costs about € 20.

do you mind me asking if you designed your own system or if someone else did. Also who did the installation. How many zones have you set up, are tv outputs HD or standard. Just curious as not alot of people down my way have anything like this in place. Also would you be able to give a guide price as to what your system cost? Regards Liam

tommyh1977

liamolaighin wrote: »

Ok I've done alot of research and met a few different local companies here in Cork re home automation and to be honest I'm only getting more sceptical. Each seem intent on belittling the others technologies and I feel the prices are totally unrealistic.

I would like to wire my house for audio/video. I'd love to run HighDef to all the bedrooms for the sake of it, but defo to 2 main rooms downstairs. Audio to be run to around 8 zones. Also interested in smart lighting and possibly blind control in a few rooms downstairs. Maybe temp control depending on heating system going into the house when building. Everything run back to a central hub. Is it possible to achieve something like this for less than 10,000.

Hi Liam,

Firstly there is no need to be sceptical regarding the different companies, Car dealers for example will run down each others brands, its the nature of the beast to prove your product the best. At the end of the day just like a car has one primary function so does a Home Automate system they all work around the same structured principal. Prices are probably not unrealistic, as you have a fairly elaborate design going on in there. Example: Crestron programmers charge something like 1000 euro a day just for programming, other manufacturers charge in the thousands for their programming software. Design consultants charge in the thousands just to lay out your system, but at the end of the day when you couple good design with good equipment & installation/ programming you get what you paid for. I feel it highly unlikely you will get your system components excluding fitting & programming for under 10K. Cabling alone should cost you in the region of 2K. Then again if you search around you will always find cheap as chips cable & equipment that will do a cheap as chips job. Not trying to be sarcastic you cant drive a Mercedes on a Perodua Budget. As a home installer myself, i wouldnt dream of sinking 10K into plumbing risking the system not working properly when the house is closed up, Home Automation is exactly the same there is a certain procedure & method to be used. There are too many cowboy outfits out there & self installers who assume it is just connecting a pile of wires together like hooking up a second sky box or something & i for one have spent way too long in comms rooms in new houses trying to rectify someone elses mess. Not trying to offend anyone here.

gmoyne

I do the designing myself. I try not to do installations as I can generally either get the client to do their own or an electrician whom they know and can trust to do what they want not what they think is handy.

I was working on a system today hey have 12 inputs out to 18 zones so it is quite big. They also have 12 zone on amps and two surround sound zones.

I am in some ways not keen to overly emphasise what product is better than any other, however I will say this much if it works and it's not too costly and it is simple to operate well that's what you need. garand having a Philips pronto and such like that will control everything that is if your happy to try and explain these controls to evryone that might come into your house wanting to turn the tv on or the music on.

Simple is good, its either on or off dimmed or not.
Sound and picture should be self explanatory with simple menus. You can send me a PM or email me and I can give you all the info you require.

gmoyne

Aha the dear old age of quotes "his is not as big and as fast or as grand as mine"

In 2005 and before the largest companies decided that it was time that they formed and organistation so that equipment woudl work on an automation system no matter who the manufacturer was just as long as the equipment conformed to recognised standards. This organisation is called KNX and the site www.knx.rg the organisation is now growing beyond expectations. the largest KNX supporter is ABB there are several hundred companies involved. The idea was also to have an open protocal (language) so that your automation sustem was not confined to again a manufacturer.

Remember this CAT 5 costs about € 80 for 300 meteres it will carry line audio video with out loss so don't be fooled into the belief that one needs special cable (you don't)
So it may be cheap as chips but NASA use CAT 5/6 screened and non the pentagon was wired in cat and it's cheap as chips !

No right answers just different !

tommyh1977

gmoyne wrote: »

Aha the dear old age of quotes "his is not as big and as fast or as grand as mine"

In 2005 and before the largest companies decided that it was time that they formed and organistation so that equipment woudl work on an automation system no matter who the manufacturer was just as long as the equipment conformed to recognised standards. This organisation is called KNX and the site www.knx.rg the organisation is now growing beyond expectations. the largest KNX supporter is ABB there are several hundred companies involved. The idea was also to have an open protocal (language) so that your automation sustem was not confined to again a manufacturer.

Remember this CAT 5 costs about € 80 for 300 meteres it will carry line audio video with out loss so don't be fooled into the belief that one needs special cable (you don't)
So it may be cheap as chips but NASA use CAT 5/6 screened and non the pentagon was wired in cat and it's cheap as chips !

No right answers just different !

I wasn't running down CAT5, as almost any electrical system today incorporates CAT5 cabling in some form or other, however you take a piece of cheap as chips chinese CAT5 & a piece of Krone CAT5 and get a full bandwidth sweep comparison done on them you will certainly find the chinese CAT5 which can cost as little as 20 euro per box will certainly not perform as good as the krone. I'm sure NASA dont import the cheap chinese stuff!!!! Furthermore CAT5 for Audio / Video transmission is only as good as the convertors / adaptors that are used to terminate either end. Again how can one compare ebay HDMi transcievers to Geffen transcievers. No right answers just different. I'm not on here to push any of my products on anyone, i just simply want to emphasise that even though there is no such thing as special cable there is such a thing as quality cable and when you are closing up your walls you want to be sure you will not need to replace that cable again for a good few years. Also it is critically important that seperation is kept between AV / Data Cables & Mains Cables to prevent cable talk, again just something i see day in - day out with Cat5 intertwined with PVC T&E Cable.

M cebee

hard to figure the dado trunking as mains and data can be bunched fairly close

tommyh1977

Could never figure the Dado Trunking either as it contradicts all wiring practices for Data, but to be fair there is a tiny seperation and at least they are parallel to each other, its when you see them literally wrapped around each other, then you have a problem waiting to flair its ugly head. One job i remember in particular was an office building where the electrician was careless with his cable management and he also used some cheap meteor CAT5. All worked fine once the high frequency lighting was off but when it was switched on just watch the whole IT system crash & burn.

zabzab

hi guys .I have read the posts with interest and would like to make some observations. I have been supplying and installing for nearly 20 years.
The mix here is between those who seem to have professional involvement and the amateur who would like to get involved. If I step on someone`s toes please excuse me as I will never intend to offend. Tommy 1977 and gmoyne are talking a lot of sense. To go back to the post regarding other people running down competing systems that is to me unprofessional. All systems
have strengths and weaknesses and a competent dealer should be able to explain this, unfortunatley a lot of people who come into this business learn the system they are selling and then act as if that is the only answer. I see a mention of Crestron this with AMX is the most expensive systems out there and supply is only through authorised dealers who are fully trained and up to date. In the USA AMX are now dropping dealers that don`t meet sales figures and withdrawing support from them . The figure given for crestron programmers daily rate is typical. A Crestron programmer has to do a number of courses and exams so will have to charge for his expertise.
Crestron require crestrex cable to be used therefore the idea that it is possible to prewire for any possible system is not as easy as it seems.
RG59 is not suitable for multiroom a/v .The least that should be used if running co-ax is a good RG6 note the underline as I have seen RG6 that
is not fit to be pulled as a result of an inexperienced or badly advised
person saying wire is wire . Anyone who has ever tried to feed video over meteor RG6 will know what I mean. There are I believe now up to three cat5 cables that can be classified as such ranging from barely to good. Remember cat5 was meant as a data cable and using it for other uses does work very well as long as the interfaces are of acceptable standard and the cable is good enough. KNX does work well but is difficult to integrate as a whole house inc A/V it seems to be making most ground as an industrial concept. Almost any lighting control system has proprietery
control cable or requirements. It is possible to prewire to allow for lighting control to be added later but will add considerably to the overall cost. An electrician bills for cable run ( per drop ) so double cabling for standard lighting and lighting control costs more. Dynalite for example have a specific cable used for control and will not guarantee the performance of the system if not used and also a dynalite supplier will not hook up as he cannot give a guarantee. If liam or anyone else wants to private message me I will give as much help as possible but i will not put this on a board as i
am very wary of providing information that is general and having it used as a specific answer. I have seen some erroneus information already on these boards which seems to be gathered from a number of sources. Remember electricity is very dangerous . When the house is closed up is no time to say I should have asked someone who knew because it was their profession what was corect but other than general information no professional is going to give free information. A bit like a mechanic saying that could be a ball joint but he is not going to tell you where to get one and how to fit it as if you get it wrong and there is an accident who gets the blame? I have seen and fixed jobs where the architect or other did a spec and then when the client wanted a system
to work the cable was either wrong or worse again in the wrong place. Are you going to plumb your own house as a DIY or roof it.
Remember multiroom A/V is not covered by a fas training course for an electrician, it is not covered by a computer or networking course, in America you can get courses for same. One last thing when fitting security there are very specific regulations ( i do not agree with them but they are a legal requirement ) so it really is not allowed to DIY.

zabzab

Hi I have seen wiring priced for a lot more than that but actually think that 4.5 k is
a bit excessive however to put an accurate price on a system i would need a spec, no of rooms etc pm me if you like

D.B.E

have to agree with the professionals the type of cable used makes all the difference....do alot of the first fixing for an installer in cork and he has said it as well that unless the cable and cabling is done to high standard the system is flawed

automatemyhouse

I built a house in Limerick a few years ago and wired for everything. Have some things up and running but need help configuring multi room av and programming a Clipsal lighting system. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Does anyone know someone who wants some work?

D.B.E

is it the c-bus lighting system you are looking at installing

automatemyhouse

The clipsal is installed and runs the lighting. I want to extend this to start adding logic, turn things on and off and enable remote access. In addition have a multi room audio installed but it needs to be programmed properly and distributed av enabled.

brathnach

Ok top-end (non user configurable) systems you could look at are Creston and AMX, both good in the field (and relatively very expensive) but very shutdown in the sense that the configuration software is proprietry.

If your looking for a logic controller and allowing some future expansion and dont want to be locked in to the supplier, you could do worse that looking into Charmed Quark Controller. (CQC) www.charmedquark.com

Trust me on one thing, I've done alot of work on the home automation side of things and pretty much know alot of the systems out there (and there are alot!!) Your're right to look for the advice first as otherwise you'll end up wasting money on stuff that you'll want to replace/upgrade within a few months because its not fit for purpose or it wont integrate into your setup.


I have to add to the above post in relation to Clipsal C-Bus. It is a very good lighting system. Can be expensive but I guess so can Rako, Lutron etc etc.

Good luck,

Rob

gmoyne

Life can be confusing when your faced with wires !

The reality is if you want to play golf dont use a hurl. Like all good trips the plan is the ultimate if success is the aim. "Fail to plan you plan to fail", whilst I have endeared myself to particular products or should I say open source controls then I will begin with suggesting that I have a bias. However, the one thing that I have learned over the years and that is the ultimate is there to be apart of the history of new product ranges.
I will begin a project with one view in mind the planning of the cables and absolutely no preference to the product going to be used. I use to think Microsoft and windows was the ultimate then I found out that they don’t use their own product on their servers and having spent hours banging my head against an error screen I eventually bought a Mac. Yes it is the best thing since sliced bread, but there are better systems to come.

So in planning an installation think of the better things to come. Not so long ago the only way to install a CCTV system was by using Coax and power cable now the future is IP and each camera can be recorded anywhere on a network or off site. The future is here the only problem is the integrators are fixed to a single supplier or operating system.

For AV I use a matrix system which allows for the control and transportation of AV signal over a CAT5/6/7 cable this allows for the line audio and video to be distributed cheaply and with controls everywhere. What you do with that audio video signal at the end of the cable is now open to you! Imagination is a great thing.

Cable for controls in all installations is probably the cheapest investment in the whole property. There is nothing by the way stopping someone installing their own intruder alarm it is just that some eggit in power somewhere decided that to protect some bods they would set up a quango and say we are protecting our citizens from rogue traders. Yep that is like protecting us from the banks (pay up and shut up). If you have a monitored alarm it will ring a centre who will ring you and then if its not you they will ring the gaurds who will show up sometime and you will pay € 5 a day to have this person call you when the alarm goes off. So forgive me for being silly but why not have the alarm system call you and spend your € 5 on a holiday or fish and chips or something. I digress.


Automation is all about what you want from your system nothing is perfect but integration will save you money and that is the ultimate goal saving energy saving monay so that you can spend your cash on a new Harley.




Anyhow, enough for today !

2011

Fantastic post Gmoyne, very informative.

gmoyne

2011 wrote: »

Fantastic post Gmoyne, very informative.

Thanks !

The next part of any plan is to orgaise where you will go with this kinda like planning a holiday. What is it I could possibly ever want to do and then make out a plan for every room as if it was in isolation of everything else in the plan.

Not sure why cables are strung in a roof where you cannot ever get at them.
I have seen so many houses which look like spaghetti junction. Nice clean trunking with a pull cord in the floors with inspection traps at regular intervals is worth a thought. At least you can then get at the cables and repair replace and add as and when you will.
There is also a way to install a fire system in the ducting should you ever be unfortunate to have an electrical fire which will also isolate the system whilst putting out the fire. Yes, it can be done and not too expensive. Allot cheaper than replacing a house and safer.

I generally build consumer units off site which will allow the insertion of just about anything once it has been decided what the project is going to be none of this tiny cabinets above doors which might have been grand years ago but now integration is the buzz word and the cabinet should be big enough to allow just about anything in there. No, the dog is definitely not allowed in or the cat for that matter!

pauliemc

HI all
hopefully some of you have completed what i am hoping to do.... need some advise and guidance, keeping the house renovated and the electrician has wired it with cat 6 cabling and TV points for both satellite and UPC to a central point - cables are hanging loose at this point and not connected to anything- see attached rough drawing.

I am very new to all this so need advice on what to do next... I am planning on getting UPC into the house for TV and Broadband but need to know what to do. Rang UPC and the were less that helpful and seem to just want to come in and run there cable to the TV...

Appreciate any guidance or even recommendation of someone who could finish the job

Thanks in advance

Stoner

Hi Paulie this is a 5 or 6 year old thread it would be better to open a new thread and copy your questions into it.

I might be it some assistance on this subject, and I'll post in a new thread .

Thank you.