COSMETIC DENTIST - A fallacy!

centric

I decided to put up a thread on the term "cosmetic dentist" to explain to people the term and how it is misconceiving the general public!

There is simply no such thing as a cosmetic dentist, its a misleading b-s term being used by many dentists both in Ireland and overseas also.

This term is implying that they are specialists in this area, that they are more specialised than the other general dentist, and misleading people. This infers that the general dentist is not cosmetic! Its a false term used to market their clinic to the general public and take advantage of their possible lack of knowledge in this area!

The truth is they are not specialists, I will list who are specialists in the profession below.

For cosmetic cases the specialists are actually called prosthodontists, basically they specialise in missing teeth, crowns, veneers, bridges, implants, dentures etc. Of course general dentists can do these treatments, but the more treatment needed, the more teeth missing or with problems, and the more esthetic the demand for best appearance, the more complex a case can become and one should consider a prosthodontist for this problem given the extra years of specialisation that they do in this area.

When dentists graduate they are called;
General dentists, dentist, or dental surgeon. They dont limit their practice or specialise in a particular area, hence the term general!

What are the specialties in dentistry?
Prosthodontists
Oral & maxillofacial surgeons
Orthodontists
Periodontists
Endodontists
Pedodontists


Dont be fooled! Anyways just wanted to clarify this issue given the number of people on the forum talking about so called cosmetic dentists and the number of people advertising as a cosmetic dentist!

res ipsa

The code of conduct in relation to this can be found here:
http://www.dentalcouncil.ie/files/Public-Relations.pdf

From my reading of it, the term cosmetic dentist would be prohibited, although I am no lawyer.Calling oneself a prosthodontist would also be prohibited according to this document and would possibly result in a charge of serious professional misconduct.

There are only two specialities in dentistry in the Republic of Ireland

Orthodontics
Oral Surgery

If you want to know why there aren't more, the people to e-mail are info@dentalcouncil.ie

davo10

centric, in two years of logging on to this forum, yours is probably the best post I have seen. You are right absolutely correct. There are no specialist "cosmetic dentists" and just because we dentists do many courses on cosmetic treatments it does not confer "specialist" status. It annoys me when fellow dentists advertise themselves as "some of the best dentists in Ireland" just because they attended a few lectures in the US etc. This is one of the reasons why we are prohibited from advertising. The best way of finding a dentist who can do the work you require is by word of mouth. A great dentist I believe is one who can identify and relate to a patient's needs, can discuss all treatment options, can competantly carry out those treatments to the highest standards, has excellent laboratory assistance and provides treatment at a realistic price. The ones that do this do not need to advertise themselves as "cosmetic dentists".

centric

davo10 wrote: »

centric, in two years of logging on to this forum, yours is probably the best post I have seen. You are right absolutely correct. There are no specialist "cosmetic dentists" and just because we dentists do many courses on cosmetic treatments it does not confer "specialist" status. It annoys me when fellow dentists advertise themselves as "some of the best dentists in Ireland" just because they attended a few lectures in the US etc. This is one of the reasons why we are prohibited from advertising. The best way of finding a dentist who can do the work you require is by word of mouth. A great dentist I believe is one who can identify and relate to a patient's needs, can discuss all treatment options, can competantly carry out those treatments to the highest standards, has excellent laboratory assistance and provides treatment at a realistic price. The ones that do this do not need to advertise themselves as "cosmetic dentists".

Thank you very much for that note Davo, I think exactly the same if you can fulfill all those things that you listed you are serving the best needs of the patient without deception or any deceit of trying to lure a patient with false terms! It not only unfair to patients but unfair to fellow dentists, you are perhaps stating that another dentist in the same area is not a cosmetic dentist (whatever that means anyways) or that they are unable to do anything cosmetic or maybe suggesting that they dont or cant do cosmetic work!

centric

res ipsa wrote: »

The code of conduct in relation to this can be found here:
http://www.dentalcouncil.ie/files/Public-Relations.pdf

From my reading of it, the term cosmetic dentist would be prohibited, although I am no lawyer.Calling oneself a prosthodontist would also be prohibited according to this document and would possibly result in a charge of serious professional misconduct.

There are only two specialities in dentistry in the Republic of Ireland

Orthodontics
Oral Surgery

If you want to know why there aren't more, the people to e-mail are info@dentalcouncil.ie

But everywhere else in the world there is more than two! This is a shortcoming of the dental profession in Ireland. Lets just be honest about it. There is more than two specialties in dentistry, they just happen to recognise only two perhaps for some bizarre reason, maybe others might be able to suggest why. I recognise anyone as a specialist that has done the extra training in an approved program of specialty and fulfilled all the criteria to earn the title of a specialist.

I am aware of their two specialist idea, but we should also be realistic,

what purpose does it serve not to recognise other specialists?

As far as im aware the basic ethical principles are
1. Do no harm
2. Serve the best needs of the patient.

Take the example of the prosthodontist;
How can preventing the general public from knowing about the other specialties in Ireland serve the best needs of the patient? Also because the dental council wont allow the recognition of other specialties perhaps this will in fact cause harm to the patient. How? Lets say in this case a patient, not knowing about the skills of a prosthodontist goes to a general dentist, and its a complex case, the general dentist can only suggest treatment options to their best ability, which may be limited. How is that serving the best needs of a patient? Secondly so many general dentists that step into the most complex of cases can even make the situation worse, ie do harm! So both ethical principles are voided right away from their ignorance to accept the recognition of other dental specialties, unlike everywhere else in the world.

My belief is that the only reason they wont recognise other specialists is because of the medical card scheme and how certain procedures are allowed, its a financial consideration!

If someone can tell me a good reason why they wont recognise other specialists with relevance to providing the best care for every patient please feel free to do so.

Thanks for that link also!

davo10

Centric, i think most of your points are well made but trying to link status and recognition of specialist qualifications to the medical card scheme is wrong and i can't think how you would connect the two. The medical card scheme does not to my knowlegde cover any treatments beyond remedial care, eg fillings, extractions, dentures. It certainly does not cover implants, crown and bridge, molar endodontics or surgical periodontics so whether specialist qualifications are recognised does not make one bit of difference. Can you ever imagine the HSE paying for patients to have implants?.

irish people demand value and high standards in everything these days, which is the way it should be. It is not enough to provide a treatment in any field cheaply, it must also be of high quality and the two do not always go hand in hand for a veriety of reasons which have been discussed to death. Specialists are there to augment the treatments provided by your GDP, in the same way that a cardiac surgeon is there to assist your GP in providing your health care. A patient tends to be referred to a specialist when the dentist diagnoses a problem and believes it is in the patient's best interest to have that treatment done by someone who is an expert in that field. Your dentist will be able to advise you when you need to go there. Another poster on this forum some months ago complained that we refer to specialists too much, when you think about that, could there be a better example of how much we want to look after our patient's best interests. A dentist is telling a patient that they need to see someone else for their treatment instead of having a go themselves and taking the fees. Normally patients tend to see their dentist first as most treatments do not require specialist assistance, if you go direct to a specialist, you may be paying more for something your GDP could have done. Again if i could use the analogy, most people do not go direct to a heart surgeon without first discussing their problems with their GP, medication may be required rather than a transplant.

As far as I know the EU only recognises the two specialities you mention, Oral Surgery and Orthodontics. Other specialities such as endodontics, periodontics, prosthodontics are relatively new and difficult to compare. Most of the dentists currently offering these services have done post grad studies in Ireland, the UK and the US and have relavant fellowships. How then could the dental council accredit someone who claims to have a specialist qualification from Kazakstan (Just used this as an example, no offence meant to Kazakstani endodontists). Though you may feel these regulations prohibit patients ability to access information, they are often there to protect the patient, not dentists as I am certain all endodontists, prostho and periodontists would be delighted to have their qualifications recognised by the State.

Recognition has nothing to do with money, it will just take time for the relevant legislation to be put in place, but the sooner the better. Again your point about "cosmetic dentists" is spot on, this will never be in my view a speciality because the treatments it refers to eg. crowns, bridges, composite fillings, whitening etc, every dentist worth his/her salt should be good at. What can often make the difference is the planning and the quality of materials used eg having excellent lab work, filling materials etc.

terribletim

centric wrote: »

This term is implying that they are specialists in this area, that they are more specialised than the other general dentist

Many dentists are more specialized than other general dentists.

davo10

In what way?, and are they entitled to call themselves "specialists"?. The term implies that you have undertaken higher training and obtained consultant qualifications. Otherwise every dentist from newly grads could lay claim to being specialists. In my view you have to earn the right to call yourself a specialist in anything, and that means having the necessary qualifications, otherwise what is the point of doing those extra years of study.
Just because you go to a few lectures on veneers does not make you a recognised expert, it may make you a very good dentist.. This situation seems to be perculiar to the dental field, I do not know of any GP who claims to be a specialist in a particular discipline of medicine without having the necessary qualifications though I could be wrong.

centric

Hey terribletim welcome to the discussion on this, could you please elaborate what you meant? I dont know what you mean from your comment.

Also, Davo, we're probably both veering off the point onto the recognition of specialists lets save that for another post, back on to the cosmetic dentist idea! (Thx for the comments though Davo)

terribletim

Some dentists do implants without limiting their practice to prosthodontics. Others aren't comfortable with that level of surgery. Capiche?

As far as I know, cosmetic dentistry isn't an actual specialization. It's just a term that has arisen from the increased demand from patients for cosmetic dental treatment.

Some patients visit the dentist to have work done on the appearance of their teeth, others visit because their mouths require urgent medical attention. That's not to say that general and cosmetic dentistry are mutually exclusive.

Dentists are both health care practitioners and self employed entrepreneurs. If a dentist has taken the time and effort to advance his/her skill set, then naturally they would market themselves accordingly. I don't see why you're being so hysterical about the term "cosmetic dentistry."

I suppose the way it works is, dentists will stop providing cosmetic treatment when there is no longer a demand for it.

Big_G

I don't know if I entirely agree with your points of view guys. I think that it disincentivises dentists to do continuing education when they can't claim that they have a higher skill level than the fella down the road with regard to any area of dentistry. We've now gotten into the situation of higher regulation of the profession in terms of continuing education because of this.

I do agree with the difficulty involved in evaluating the quality of continuing education. That will remain a problem. I do think, however, that tightly regulated advertising could actually benefit both the public and the profession because it will raise awareness of what we can actually do.

I do agree that the whole 'cosmetic dentist' issue is a problem because there is no such thing. Does anyone agree that 'special interest' practitioners could be a possible solution to this issue?

With regard to the specialist register, I agree that all of the specialties should be registerable with the dental council, this has been done in the UK. I would like the option of self referral taken away though, if this was the case. Apart from that, I don't think it will actually change much. It is a way for specialists to market themselves, really. I hope I don't offend the specialists with that comment.

centric

I agree with some points all good points too! But the use of the term cosmetic dentist by a general practitioner I just think is misleading the public to believe that this dentist is more specialised when in fact they are at the same level as every other dentist. The fact that they are good will be spread by word of mouth. The fact that they do extra courses is something that we're all going to have to do anyways!

I just wanted people to know that they are not specialists by using that term! And that they are general dentists (for the most part). I think this is especially killing dentists in the south as they cant even advertise and people think "oh why would go to a regular dentist in the south when I can go to my cosmetic dentist up the north or in Hungary etc" Its that misconception that I really want to address, that many dentists is Ireland are much better than these guys in Poland and Hungary and Turkey that advertise and place implants without the necessary knowledge from an accredited course even obtained! Its crazy!

georgieporgy

You guys have a point when you say there is no such thing as a cosmetic dentist. There is however the issue of cosmetic dentistry which definitely is something.
After graduating, dentists are expected to keep current with advances in dentistry by continuous study. This is generally a mix of reading and attending courses. Just like being in university.
Some dentists are not interested in orthodontics so they never attend ortho courses. Others are, and they get very good at doing ortho.
Likewise with cosmetics. A few 'weekend' courses are indeed in order if one wants to pick up a few skills.
At one of these courses I attended in the US a few years ago, the dentist beside me was a prostodontist. She wanted to improve her cosmetic knowledge no doubt.

Our problem in Ireland is we have to compete with halfwits from eastern europe who have no qualms referring to themselves as cosmetik dentists. The general population here have no way of telling a quack from a doc. So I advertise myself as a dentist capable of doing good cosmetic dentistry. It's true,and I recommend all my colleagues do likewise. It's annoying to have to do it but then it was annoying to have to vote twice on recent referendums (i know there is a Latin plural but this is easier to understand). These things just get forced on us so we may as well adapt.:cool:

davo10

terribletim, if you are a dentist and place implants, thats great but you should not try to mislead the public into thinking you are an "dentist who specialises in implants", it implies you have expertise and qualifications beyond a basic dental degree. What is to stop a new grad who places one implant, likes it and decides to advertise him/herself as spcialising in implants?. It's deceptive and has been banned by the Irish Dental Council.

I can't see how your "capiche" statement reinforces your point. A dentist who places implants without limiting his practise to prosthodontics is just a dentist who places implants but doesn't necessarily undertake the restorative phase, not a "cosmetic dentist", nor a "dentist who specialises in implants".

Have you ever met a "non cosmetic dentist"?, and it's not hysteria, it is as centric said, misleading the public by implying specialist expertise.

terribletim

davo10 wrote: »

terribletim, if you are a dentist and place implants, thats great but you should not try to mislead the public into thinking you are an "dentist who specialises in implants"

As I said, some dentists do implants but choose not to specialize. So why would they advertise themselves as specialists?

davo10 wrote:

Have you ever met a "non cosmetic dentist"?

Indeed I have.

centrik wrote:

I think this is especially killing dentists in the south as they cant even advertise.

?

centric

[quote=terribletim;
Indeed I have.
[/quote]

Who ? :pac:

btkm8unsl0w5r4

As a prosthodontist I would welcome changes in the regulations regarding advertising and calling yourself a specialist. I have put in the years of upaid graft, on call, late nights, exams, time away from my family and continue to upgrade my skills all the time. The current laws are oldfashoned and are mostly ignored by those who claim to be what they are not

Good thread

davo10

Agreed Fitzgeme.

terribletim, I think you may have proved centric's original point. These "non cosmetic dentists" you have met, you may consider them such because they are not interested in providing cosmetic dentistry, are not compatent at providing it, have little experience at doing it, are chancing their arm etc, but there is nothing to stop them contacting their website designer in the morning and advertising that they are suddenly " among the best dentists in Ireland" and are specialising in "cosmetic dentistry". Anyone can say that but there is no way of the public knowing if it is BS or not.

Specialists tend to get referrals from general practitioners based on ability, qualifications and experience, not on flash advertising nor boasts of attending lectures in exotic places.

terribletim

As the dawn of the second decade of the 21st century approaches, we enter into the era of dental advertising in Ireland. It will not be easy to adjust, but I'm sure we'll all get there eventually.

It seems there are three choices: no advertising, bad advertising, and good advertising. Through the passage of time, I feel confident that those who make false statements about themselves will be exposed as the lying liars that they are.

We can do this fellas.

To Time it never seems that he is brave
To set himself against the peaks of snow
To lay them level with the running wave,
Nor is he overjoyed when they lie low,
But only grave, contemplative and grave.

What now is inland shall be ocean isle,
Then eddies playing round a sunken reef
Like the curl at the corner of a smile;
And I could share Time's lack of joy or grief
At such a planetary change of style.

I could give all to Time except - except
What I myself have held. But why declare
The things forbidden that while the Customs slept
I have crossed to Safety with? For I am There,
And what I would not part with I have kept.

centric

Langston Silly Greenback wrote: »

As a prosthodontist I would welcome changes in the regulations regarding advertising and calling yourself a specialist. I have put in the years of upaid graft, on call, late nights, exams, time away from my family and continue to upgrade my skills all the time. The current laws are oldfashoned and are mostly ignored by those who claim to be what they are not

Good thread

I can think of a few of them! I know of one so called consultant claiming to be a prosthodontist. When I asked where they trained I later looked it up, there was no such training program there. I since happened to meet someone from that school/university who was there the time this person said they trained as a prosthodontist there.

He laughed and said there was never a prosthodontic program there, maybe continuing education courses but not a prosthodontic program!

Same person is quite well known and does all the walking and talking and preaching of a specialist but they are not!

ballsymchugh

centric, if only you'd be able to publish this.
for my two cents, it's where dentists set up some kind of organisation calling themselves the cosmetic dental academy and name themselves as president, or where they advertise themselves as a member of the american aesthetics dentists assoc. ie, they pay a yearly retainer, but to joe public, well, they must be good because it's america!!

davo10, isn't it strange that by reading your last post i was thinking that i know the site you're talking about?!! dentistry is a small community alright.
but i had this kind of conversation with my boss last week. a lot of the cosmetic places are classed as beauty clinics, so officially don't have the same rules applied to them like the rest of us. i'm still trying to figure it out. maybe if i knew someone in tv3 who could tell me exactly how it's done...

and fitzgeme... it's shocking that prostho isn't recognised as a speciality here, as with perio. ffs, i'd understand if you couldn't do it in dublin, but when you can specialise in the country, then it should be recognised.

as for the cpd, after working in britland, the best cpd is free. you learn much more by people who really just want to help everyone advance the profession along a bit, unlike the ones that have vested interests and just want you to buy stuff from their sponsors.

centric

ballsymchugh wrote: »

centric, if only you'd be able to publish this.

Is that a good comment to me or a bad one?

I dont know if im getting up peoples noses or just speaking the blunt truth here! I dont know which is better to stand up and be heard or go through life nodding and being a yes man but otherwise unheard of.

Anyways yeh your dead right I seen so many sites about these BS academies where I basically make myself a president and 20 members later its by "invition only" Yeh its complete crap, but by having this thread I guess we can let the public know and educate them to spot whats fake from the real qualified people or just people who advertise themselves as they are, dentists and proud of it, rather than this Cosmetic Dentist, best in Ireland we've all seen the self-professed ****-e!

I even seen a website where this one was claiming to be "among the best cosmetic dentists in Ireland" because she had just given birth, I mean what sort of crap is that!

Anyways I hope you dentists out there (and patients) are enjoying this thread I dont mean to be a pain in the ass or sound like a whinger theres some people on here who give very good (FREE) feedback to the public and fair play to you all!

davo10

centric, i think this was an excellent post. if the public can take anything from this, it is to trust word of mouth, dentists are only as good as their last patient. Avoid flashy advertisment where unsubstantiated boasts are made about ability and qualifications. Trust your dentist, if they feel you would be better served by having treatment carried out by a specialist prosthodontist/orthodontist/endodontist/periodontist etc, they have your best interest at heart. You may get complicated treatment done elsewhere cheaper by someone not trained/competant to do it, but it will not be as good and repairing/redoing it will cost more. Lastly, if you want quality, it will not be at eastern european prices, when you have this kind of work done here, the dentist is treating you as if you will be a patient for life, not just for the duration of a holiday or a trip up North.

centric

Shall we lay this topic to rest lol

ballsymchugh

send the link to lund osler. make sure it's the face place though!!
i was going to say send it to linda greenwall in london too, but she's more than qualified by the looks of it, even if she did set up her own society!!

centric

Ok,

Lets set up a society and lets call it

The Irish Academy of advanced cosmetic implant dentistry.

Now lets say im the president, and your the vice president, davo can be the treasurer etc etc, then we get some members!

Someone needs to get pregnant also, since that is also part of what makes a good "cosmetic dentist" in Ireland these days!

Its that easy, the society is up and running and we can say we are the leading members of this elite invite only society for advanced cosmetic implant restorative esthetic dentistry, in Ireland!

I love how someone said that they were "Irelands celebrity dentist" in their first year and a few weekend courses!

Says who? Since when?

ballsymchugh

ok, i nominate you to get pregnant!! i'm sure that's exactly what we need. and ireland's celebrity dentist isn't allowed to know about us, cos we're sooooooo elite. so we definitely can't get tv3 around to film us..
although, i think the title should be the irish academy for advanced cosmetic implant dentistry for dentists in ireland. just to be clear. in case there's a people's front of judea type situation in the future.
should we have some minorities involved? people from carlow?!!

centric

Ah cmon I was thinkin Leitrim!

ballsymchugh

hmmmm... i suppose we can take the cromwellian approach. it's all the same in connacht!!

terribletim

So we've established that there is no such thing as a cosmetic dentist while one cannot encounter a dentist that is "non-cosmetic." For interest's sake, how do you lads go about marketing yourselves on your websites?

ballsymchugh

terribletim wrote: »

So we've established that there is no such thing as a cosmetic dentist while one cannot encounter a dentist that is "non-cosmetic." For interest's sake, how do you lads go about marketing yourselves on your websites?

there are some people that bend the rules by describing themselves as beauty clinics. but there are rumblings that the foot is coming down on clinics that have 'not soo authentic' websites

terribletim

Rumblings... Listen, lad. Robots will be performing dental work - both general and cosmetic - off the rings of Saturn before anything comes of that.

ballsymchugh

terribletim wrote: »

Rumblings... Listen, lad. Robots will be performing dental work - both general and cosmetic - off the rings of Saturn before anything comes of that.

at least you removed the IDA from your original post, they would have no interest in any rumblings. it'd be up to our esteemed minister for health to reform the dental council along the lines of the gdc in the uk for the changes to happen. years away from now true. where are these robots though, i wouldn't mind getting one!!

Orthoman

Could I suggest that the society, formerly known as "The Irish Academy of advanced cosmetic implant dentistry", forthwith be know as "The Irish Academy of advanced cosmetic implant dentistry specialising in revolutionary 6 month braces" . All members are given honorary "Professorships" on completion of their 1st boxer case, which is announced live on TV3.......

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Orthoman wrote: »

Could I suggest that the society, formerly known as "The Irish Academy of advanced cosmetic implant dentistry", forthwith be know as "The Irish Academy of advanced cosmetic implant dentistry specialising in revolutionary 6 month braces" . All members are given honorary "Professorships" on completion of their 1st boxer case, which is announced live on TV3.......

You shal from now on be known as professor orthoman because you are te best of te best.

Orthoman

Dear Fitzgeme,
I am deeply touched and overcome with emotion with the honour which the academy wishes to bestow upon me.
First of all I would like to thank the academy, the fellows who voted for me, may I thank my wife and my children, who are a true inspiration, may I thank my fellow researchers, may I thank my students, may I thank all the teachers who have dedicated so much of their time to me over the years, may I thank all the patients who make this work so rewarding, and may I thank the Good Lord for guiding me to this rewarding profession.

However...I have to decline the award. It would be presumptuous and rather arrogant to think that I could emulate the great cosmetic dentists of Ireland, the besthst of the besthst, who have managed to convert an occasional lisp into a constant whistle and in doing so provide additional employment to a speech therapist, when so much of the country is now unemployed.
It is with a heavy heart that I have to decline the award. I cannot with honesty accept this knowing that the degrees and skills which have taken me years to obtain are obtainable by the gifted few in a matter of hours.

However, I would still like to remain an honorary consultant to the "Board", if my fellows allow.

(PS. Fitzgeme, haven't you got anything better to do at 8.15 in the morning......get that high speed going. Drill for Ireland. Your country needs you!!!!)

Orthoman

Hi Fitzgeme,
Thanks for the link. Passed it on to some colleagues who have done their undergrad with the individual involed. I'm looking forward to the "make-over prize" result on TV3 morning program in the near future .

Amazing that one can get so much publicity

ballsymchugh

centric, has there been a coup?? orthoman has been invited to join by fitzgeme. does he have an official position?? i think this needs to be sorted, or else i'll have to set up my own national irish academy of aesthetic and cosmetic dentists in ireland for dentists using 6 month braces, in association with emirates airlines.
orthoman, feel free to join. my one is better.