House fire, landlord has no insurance, who pays?

Offy

Recently I returned home to find the kitchen on fire. I called the fire brigade and waited outside. The fire was quickly put out and I called the landlord to notify him. I asked if he had insurance and he said that it ran out months ago and he couldnt afford to renew it at the time. He called around with his girlfriend and parents. When he looked around he asked if I was cooking chips as the chip pan was on the ring. I told him I was before I left the house but I thought I turned the ring off and moved the chip pan to a different ring. I wasnt sure and his mother and girlfriend were very aggressive in stating that I must have left it on the ring and not turned off the ring.
In the end I agreed this must have been the case and I also agreed to pay for the repairs. I had all the walls that were smoke damaged cleaned and painted. Ive had the kitchen ceiling repaired and re-plastered and the kitchen walls re-plastered. At the same time the electrician made a passing comment "thats the cause of your fire". I asked what he meant and he told me the junction box between the extractor and cooker was wired wrong.
A week previously the landlord had a new oven and hob installed by a handyman. It took him five hours to install it. I told my landlord what the electrician told me and he ignored me and changed the subject. Now it appears that the fire was not my fault but Ive handed out €2k in repairs. The kitchen cabinets still need replacing and the floor needs new tiles.
Last Monday the ceiling in the front room started leaking so I called my landlord to tell him. He asked if I thought the fire could have caused it. The next day the plummer said it was caused by a leaking tap in the upstairs bathroom. The landlord's mother then told me that it happened before but previously the landlord said he never had any trouble with the house before I moved in. Now my landlord wants me to rehire the plasterer and get the front room ceiling repaired but he hasnt offered to pay for it. He said he hopes the insurance company pays for the leak as he has it insured now.
My question is this, as I offered to foot the bills when I thought I was at fault am I legelly obliged to pay for the damages now that it become clear it was the landlords fault for not hiring an electrician to install a hob? If Im not legally obliged to pay can I recover any of the money Ive already spent?

_Kooli_

You should have got an expert to determine the cause of the fire.
You dont actually know what the cause was really.

So it should have been the landlord who paid in the first place.
I dont really know what you can do now though apart from just move out if he asks you for more money.

jeepers101

Thats a toughie. Citizens advice bureau gives free legal aid usually on a weekly basis.

T-Square

Trash-the-place and move out.
QED

The_Conductor

T-Square wrote: »

Trash-the-place and move out.
QED

Banned.

eth0_

Why on earth did you admit liability never mind give him any cash without having the fire brigade tell you what the cause of the fire was?! You've marked yourself out as a soft touch and the landlord is taking advantage of that fact.

If you can get that electrician to put in writing that bad wiring was the cause of the fire, then you can put it to your landlord that he should return that money to you.
If he won't, move out and take him to the small claims court.

I'm sure he has already broken the law by not having a rental property insured.

Bob Z

Hi op it's sounds like the landlord and family bullied you and your were caught on the hop. Have you friends or family that could go along with you next time?

Maybe the landlord is lying about having no insurance?

You should contact a solicitor maybe or threold or cab to find out your rights

Offy

Thats possible. He claims to only have €200 to his name yet he has been to Poland and France on holidays since the fire. I think its time to visit a solicitor.

astrofool

He needs insurance if he has a mortgage, otherwise, it's up to him. You should never have admitted liability without an investigation, and you shouldn't have paid.

Only thing you can do now to reclaim your money is to take it to the courts, but finding liability now, with all the repair work done, will be almost impossible.

Offy

The landlord called tonight with an electrician who made the claim that chip pans are illegal to use in Ireland. Has anyone ever heard of chip pans been made illegal?

Cadiz

Threshold and the free legal aid people (assuming you can't afford a solicitor). You need proper accredited advice on this.

duckysauce

Offy wrote: »

The landlord called tonight with an electrician who made the claim that chip pans are illegal to use in Ireland. Has anyone ever heard of chip pans been made illegal?

the landlord is taking you for a ride , did he register you with the ptrb when you signed up? if he didnt hes probably not paying tax mention the taxman to him and he will cahnge his attitude, but go to the citizens advice centre as some else said. The guy is just a bully dont take it , get your money back off him,, Two holidays since fire :eek:

The_Conductor

bobthebuilder04
lcooke
bubblyboy

IP Address match.....

All to be banned from Accommodation & Property, and IP blocked.

S.

cleveroli

If he didnt tell you when you were renting no chip pans then you werent in the wrong. You sound like a decent guy who just got caught - I agree with the citizens advice route - he should have had the place insured what if the house was burgled and all your stuff taken???? If you can, get a report off the fire brigade they'll have to have found the source of the fire - and i'd suggest you tell the landlord that you are considering withholding your rent until you make back the money you have already spent he cant throw you out and you sound like a decent tenant to me so he should be glad he has you and not the likes of the fella who said trash the place- what an idiot!

Kipperhell

cleveroli wrote: »

If he didnt tell you when you were renting no chip pans then you werent in the wrong. You sound like a decent guy who just got caught - I agree with the citizens advice route - he should have had the place insured what if the house was burgled and all your stuff taken???? If you can, get a report off the fire brigade they'll have to have found the source of the fire - and i'd suggest you tell the landlord that you are considering withholding your rent until you make back the money you have already spent he cant throw you out and you sound like a decent tenant to me so he should be glad he has you and not the likes of the fella who said trash the place- what an idiot!

Where to even start with this?:rolleyes:

Landlords do not have to have insurance for renters content. It is advisable for entire property damage but may easily exclude fire damage of a relatively small nature .

You are not allowed by law to withhold rent in the manner you are suggesting.

The landlord may simply not be willing to claim on his insurance rather than not actually have any.

No matter what there should be a report of some kind stating likely cause of the fire. If the tenant is at fault it is his cost if it is poor workmanship it is not the landlords cost either it is the workman's. However if the landlord used an uninsured workman it may be his cost.

I still think it is odd anybody would assume responsibility with such ease

cleveroli

Im with the tenant on this one - the landlord sounds like a right assh**e!

Hes chancing his arm and he needs to be put right!! I agree that the tenant paid up very easily but then he did think it was his fault with the chip pan so guilt may have had a part to play in this. If the landlord has cheated this guy into thinking that he should fork out for the damage I def think he should either pay back the money - some chance- or let the tenant stay rent free until the 2 grand is paid back. Id also def. mention the tax man cos a skinflint who doesnt bother with insurance probably aint payin the tax man either!!! Landlords like this give every landlord a bad name -

oldyouth

I hadn't seen this thread earlier but I think you urgently want to engage a Public Loss Adjuster. These guys act on behalf of the client in establishing the exact cause of the loss, the amount required to remedy and then negotiate for a settlement. The negotiation is usually with an insurer but they don't mind taking on landlords and the like as well

They will agree a fee in advance with you and often waive it if they can secure costs against the other party.

Trust me, you will get nowhere on your own without the backup of experienced and qualified loss adjusters. I'm not one but I would suggest these lads http://www.balcombes.ie/

Offy

Kipperhell wrote: »

Where to even start with this?:rolleyes:

Landlords do not have to have insurance for renters content. It is advisable for entire property damage but may easily exclude fire damage of a relatively small nature .

You are not allowed by law to withhold rent in the manner you are suggesting.

The landlord may simply not be willing to claim on his insurance rather than not actually have any.

No matter what there should be a report of some kind stating likely cause of the fire. If the tenant is at fault it is his cost if it is poor workmanship it is not the landlords cost either it is the workman's. However if the landlord used an uninsured workman it may be his cost.

I still think it is odd anybody would assume responsibility with such ease

The chap that installed the cooker makes gates for a living, he is not insured and probably not qualified to conduct electrical work. The landlord absolutely does not want this chap to be brought to court.
I took responsibility simply because I didnt know at the time what caused the fire and assumed as I was the tenant that I was responsible for the upkeep of the house.
The landlord claims he is not insured but I have no way of knowing for sure, I believe him.
The landlord is not registered with PRTB.
The landlord offered to allow me to have the house rent free till the repair bill is cleared. (fair play is good sport!)

I spoke with two solicitors today.
Point 1: Chip pans are NOT illegal in Ireland.
Point 2: Unless the landlord can prove I purposely started the fire it is not my responsibility to pay for the repairs.

Cadiz

Good for you Offy, glad you had a reasonably good outcome.

chillin_penguin

Well done One up for the little guy

chillin_penguin

On another not your landlord shouldnt really have brought his mother or his gf along with him. Even though you are renting the house he cant just show up and bring in who he likes (i know you invited him that time) but he should by right give you at least a weeks notice that he is going to show up. Unless he keeps a room in the house in that case he can do as he pleases

Kipperhell

Offy wrote: »

The chap that installed the cooker makes gates for a living, he is not insured and probably not qualified to conduct electrical work. The landlord absolutely does not want this chap to be brought to court.
I took responsibility simply because I didnt know at the time what caused the fire and assumed as I was the tenant that I was responsible for the upkeep of the house.
The landlord claims he is not insured but I have no way of knowing for sure, I believe him.
The landlord is not registered with PRTB.
The landlord offered to allow me to have the house rent free till the repair bill is cleared. (fair play is good sport!)

I spoke with two solicitors today.
Point 1: Chip pans are NOT illegal in Ireland.
Point 2: Unless the landlord can prove I purposely started the fire it is not my responsibility to pay for the repairs.

Never claimed chip pans were illegal. I doubt a solicitor would say you are only responsible for your actions if you intended to start a fire.
I said the landlord is responsible for the workman's work if he didn't use a professional. It does require the landlord to know this or not to have checked a reasonable amount.
Whether the landlord was registered or not has no bearing on this.

Did the landlord change his mind or was it changed because of your actions?

Note my post accused you of nothing just refuting claims of insurance and dismissing suggested illegal activity.

Offy

Kipperhell wrote: »

Never claimed chip pans were illegal. I doubt a solicitor would say you are only responsible for your actions if you intended to start a fire.
I said the landlord is responsible for the workman's work if he didn't use a professional. It does require the landlord to know this or not to have checked a reasonable amount.
Whether the landlord was registered or not has no bearing on this.

Did the landlord change his mind or was it changed because of your actions?

Note my post accused you of nothing just refuting claims of insurance and dismissing suggested illegal activity.

I never said you claimed chip pan were illegal, I claimed the electrician the landlord hired Tuesday night claimed chip pans are illegal - read post #10. The same electrician claimed that the fire was started by drops of condensation falling from the extractor fan an onto the chip pan - highly unlikely as the extractor fan would have sucked the steam out of the kitchen.
It was oldyouth that suggested I contact http://www.balcombes.ie/ and they said that if the fire was not my fault OR the fire was accidental that its the landlords responsibility to foot the bills for the repairs to the house (walls, ceiling, etc. - not my personal belongings). My own solicitor made the same claim.
The landlord did NOT use a professional to install the new cooker as stated previously, he knew the chap that he hired to install the cooker was not a professional as they are friends.
I never thought your post accused me of anything. Chill out dude!

Kipperhell

Offy wrote: »

It was oldyouth that suggested I contact http://www.balcombes.ie/ and they said that if the fire was not my fault OR the fire was accidental that its the landlords responsibility to foot the bills for the repairs to the house (walls, ceiling, etc. - not my personal belongings).

You know that doesn't make any sense, the fire could have been your fault and accidental. It doesn't sound like a solicitor would say it as you are describing it. It actually flies against all logic applied to everything else. Try and apply it to any other accidental damage . Not saying it isn't true but it seems very contradictory and doesn't make much sense. If you accidentally damage a property you are liable from your deposit and further liable for additional expenses so it seems strange that if it is a fire things are different.

So did the landlord just change his mind or did you threaten him legally for him to give you a rent free period?

ronaneire

Kipperhell wrote: »

You know that doesn't make any sense, the fire could have been your fault and accidental.quote]
The reason the landlord should have HIS premises insured against loss or damage.
Accidents happen, they are not caused.

Offy

I told him I wanted the details of the chap that installed the cooker as I planned to claim from this insurance. He refuses to pass on the details and he also refuses to give me his postal address. The cause of the fire is unclear to say the least.
As ronaneire said "The reason the landlord should have HIS premises insured against loss or damage.
Accidents happen, they are not caused. "
Perhaps you dont like the advice I've recieved from two solicitors, thats up to you. If you have such a problem with it then I suggest you talk to a solicitor and find out for yourself.
On a seperate note I feel from your last two posts that you are trying to flame bait me therefore Im going to ignore any more posts from you.

Moonbeam

Back in college we had a house fire too.
It was also caused by a chip pan and not 100% our fault.
We paid 0 towards repairs and lived in the house rent free until the repairs were carried out as the house was not up to a rentable standard.
The kitchen was pretty ruined and the hall smoke damaged.

I would also report him to the prtb and don't forget to claim you rental tax credit;)

restaurants

_Kooli_ wrote: »

You should have got an expert to determine the cause of the fire.
You dont actually know what the cause was really.

So it should have been the landlord who paid in the first place.
I dont really know what you can do now though apart from just move out if he asks you for more money.

Talk to a Loss Assessor. Those guys can tell you quickly if it is worth following.

duckysauce

Moonbeam wrote: »

Back in college we had a house fire too.
It was also caused by a chip pan and not 100% our fault.
We paid 0 towards repairs and lived in the house rent free until the repairs were carried out as the house was not up to a rentable standard.
The kitchen was pretty ruined and the hall smoke damaged.

I would also report him to the prtb and don't forget to claim you rental tax credit;)

yeah the rental tax credit adds up nicely just applied for mine and was glad with what i will get back

Offy

Latest development: The landlord poped round tonight to give me notice, he has decided to sell the house and get an evaluator to look at the repairs to determine if the tradesmen charged a fair price before he reimburses me! Thankfully I have to see my solicitor tomorrow and I know that's he's going to want to take him to court. I think I should also charge him for the tax credits I should be due, after all why should I loose out because he's not paying tax? Im more in shock now than the night of the fire.

Cadiz

That's stuff about the evaluation sounds like delaying tactics. His issue with tradesman shouldn't delay him paying the he owes you. But as for getting that or tax credits out of a cowboy like that without costing yourself money in legal fees...

The only slight upside to the recession is messers like this not having the market in their favour anymore.

Moonbeam

Offy wrote: »

Latest development: The landlord poped round tonight to give me notice, he has decided to sell the house and get an evaluator to look at the repairs to determine if the tradesmen charged a fair price before he reimburses me! Thankfully I have to see my solicitor tomorrow and I know that's he's going to want to take him to court. I think I should also charge him for the tax credits I should be due, after all why should I loose out because he's not paying tax? Im more in shock now than the night of the fire.

You can apply for the tax credits with out his pps info etc and it is your entitlement so I would apply for it.
The insurance issue maybe that the house was insured but not insured to be rented out.

DO'Carlo/Wex

Moonbeam wrote: »

You can apply for the tax credits with out his pps info etc and it is your entitlement so I would apply for it.
The insurance issue maybe that the house was insured but not insured to be rented out.

+1 on this/What he said!
I applied for Tax Credits after being let go & having left my accomodation.
No PPS No. Needed. I just gave Landlords' Name & Address which was same as that of my Rented Accomodation.
It's YOUR' money, nobody elses'. It's YOUR' right to claim for it.
As a Certain Running Shoe Manufacturers' Ad says "Just Do It (Swoosh!)!"
1 Thing about those Tax Credits is that they're ondly backdatable 5 Years or something.
Why is this or why would it be?
I didn't know about them or realise I was entitled til this year when I had time to study my rights & entitlements.

Offy

My landlord insisted on receipts for all materials and work done, fair enough. I had to get on to the tradesmen and that took a couple of weeks but I got it last night.
I spoke with my landlord last night and he was meant to meet me today for the exchange. He never turned up so I rang him and asked what was going on. He told me he cant afford to repay me so I told him Im taking him to court. Now he say he can afford to repay half the money now and half when I move out at the end of the month. For this he wants me to hand over the receipts. Ive told him he can have copies now and the originals when he repays me all the money he owes me.
Am I been unreasonable? What would you do if you were in this situation?

Cadiz

I think you're being reasonable about the receipts. (He should have arranged to have the work done and paid for it himself in the first place anyway). But I also think you need more solid advice than boards on how to handle this to ensure you get your money..

How come he couldn't afford to pay you at all and now, suddenly he can afford to pay you half now and half once the threat of legal action is raised? All the prevaricating sounds shady imho.

Should you maybe tell him no, you want all monies, all paid up in full before you leave? Otherwise do you not risk having to chase him for the other half when you've less leverage as you've left his property?

Did you speak to Threshold/PRTB/solicitor about this latest twist?

Offy

I spoke to Threshold and once the electrician is willing to testify he cant will the case. Faulty wiring is his problem as he hired the handyman to do it. The headache is it will take months to go through court and I dont want to wait months. I'll have to pay another deposit at the end of the month and a months rent and removal costs so I'll like the money he owes me to cover that.
If I dont get the money of him now thats just a small headache and its off to court with the case. At the end of the day he broke the law and not me. tbh Id sooner he didnt get a criminal record but if he can afford two weekends in Europe since the fire he can afford to repay me too!
I just dont know if he's filling me full of it or he's actually been genuine and if he is skint at the moment for whatever reasons I dont want to be a ****.

am i bovvered

Offy wrote: »

I dont want to be a ****.

Offy, I am a landlord, you have been more than reasonable, your landlord tried to pull a fast one on you, got caught and he his lucky you are giving him a chance to get out with just the costs he should have been liable for in the first place.
Landlords like him are the reason the profession has such a bad name, but, I wish all tennents had your attitude.
Don't give this guy any more chances either he pays up or go the legal route.
Good Luck

MAB83

Offy fight him all the way, that's just ridiculous. He's a gangster. Make sure you get every cent back off him. Hang in there.

derv60

Offy i dont think you are being unreasonable either and that sounds like a fair arrangement you have come to.let him refund you and move on.if you get the first payment quickly im sure he will pay up in full.anyway good luck with it.

the_syco

derv60 wrote: »

let him refund you and move on.if you get the first payment quickly im sure he will pay up in full.

I disagree. I'm thinking he'll pay part of the money he owes Offy, and then pull a legger.

Offy, the landlord clearly doesn't give a flying f**k about you. As for the money, get a court date, and see how fast the toad comes up with the full amount: I'm thinking it'll be pretty fast.

Offy

One of the lads I went to school with many years ago used to say "Just when you though things couldnt possibly get any worse they get drastically worse!"
The ceiling in the front room starting leaking AGAIN. The ceiling board has been dipping down for about a month now. The house looks great till you move in and find dodgy electrics, dodgy plumbing, dodgy doors that curl in the corners and a dodgy landlord that bought the house that Jack built!

Offy

Last night the ceiling in the front room started leaking again so I put the bucket back under it. This morning I notified the landlord and minutes later I got a phone call in work from one of my children telling me the room was flooding! I've turned off the water at the mains. The central heating is run of natural gas, can I use the heating with the water turned off?
The part payment he was to give me today has now been deferred till tomorrow, give some people an inch........................Thats about five dates he has given and he's not stood by one of them. The phrase 'slum landlord' comes to mind. I bet he will have another excuse/date once tomorrow comes.

Bob Z

Op I think you are being too nice tbh you just need a bit of support and you will be firmer

Cadiz

Inclined to agree with other posters here Offy. Time to tough up. You've given this guy the benefit of the doubt a few times and he's let you down.

Offy

I received 50% of the money owed with a solicitors letter promising me the remaining 50% at the end of the month so Im well pleased!

jamesplarkin

I'm not going to pass judgement on the landlord as to be fair, there are 2 sides to every story and I only have your side of the story.

But I will ask this question...what the hell were you using a chip pan for???

A 5 year old would tell you that they are lethal dangerious???

Common sence would have told you to get a deep fat fryer instead. They only cost about €30 in argos and have a safety thermostat built in which ensures they do not over heat and catch fire.

Whats that about?

Zamboni

Offy wrote: »

I received 50% of the money owed with a solicitors letter promising me the remaining 50% at the end of the month so Im well pleased!

Hey Offy did you get the other 50% in the end?

Offy

I got the remaining 50% on Tuesday Zamboni
jamesplarkin you are right there are two sides to every story and as silly as the use of a chip pan might be it is not illegal, renting a house without registering it is illegal and renting a house without insurring it is also illegal. It is also illegal to charge rent when the property is under repair. Tenants have rights to protect them from slum landlords that are not willing to provide safe accommodation and maintain the accommodation.
Some landlords seem to thing that the tenant should pay for everything associated with the rental property, this simply is not the case.

Zamboni

Fair play.

Good to hear of a happy ending these days.

jamesplarkin

Offy,

It may be illegal (and stupid) not to have the house registered or insured but this didn't start the fire.

It’s not illegal to operate a chip pan but it’s incredibly stupid to do so. It’s not illegal to jump off a cliff also but I wouldn’t do that either! Why? Because common sense would tell me not to do it.

I find it hard to believe that wiring a oven would cause a fire, especially as the wiring was already in place and just a simple swop was required. Wiring an oven is as simple as wiring a plug, in fact its the same thing but the gauge of the wires are bigger. Electrical fires are extremely rare while chip pan fires are as common as muck.

I’m an Engineer in the Electronics Industry so I know the extreme temperatures required to ignite the insulation on electrical wire. That’s why I'm saying that it’s highly unlikely for ignition to occur this way. I also know that chip pan oil ignites at between the 250 - 260 degrees only. The fact that a chip pan has no thermostat is why it is so easy for these temperatures to be reached and therefore why chip pans are so lethal. The electrician you hired is not a neutral observer; you did hire and pay him after all!

You call the landlord a slum; you burnt his kitchen down for God sake!

ztoical

jamesplarkin wrote: »

Offy,

It may be illegal (and stupid) not to have the house registered or insured but this didn't start the fire.

It’s not illegal to operate a chip pan but it’s incredibly stupid to do so. It’s not illegal to jump off a cliff also but I wouldn’t do that either! Why? Because common sense would tell me not to do it.

I find it hard to believe that wiring a oven would cause a fire, especially as the wiring was already in place and just a simple swop was required. Wiring an oven is as simple as wiring a plug, in fact its the same thing but the gauge of the wires are bigger. Electrical fires are extremely rare while chip pan fires are as common as muck.

I’m an Engineer in the Electronics Industry so I know the extreme temperatures required to ignite the insulation on electrical wire. That’s why I'm saying that it’s highly unlikely for ignition to occur this way. I also know that chip pan oil ignites at between the 250 - 260 degrees only. The fact that a chip pan has no thermostat is why it is so easy for these temperatures to be reached and therefore why chip pans are so lethal. The electrician you hired is not a neutral observer; you did hire and pay him after all!

You call the landlord a slum; you burnt his kitchen down for God sake!

hold on sec I find it very odd you've found your way on to boards and of all the threads to make your first comments you dig up this one to make comment on the chip pan? Yes we've all seen the adds on telly about chip pans...it's stupid yes but as already pointed out it's not illegal and frankly I'd trust a chip pan about as much as I'd trust a cheap 30 euro fryer from argos. you haven't seen the OP's kitchen, you don't have the full facts but your ready to get on your high horse? The OP started the thread to ask for advice, the OP's situtation has been resolved and I hope the mods lock the thread to stop further off topic rants.