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The problem with ghosts and science?
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23-10-2009 7:05pm#1Hi everybody on the paranormal forum, Brian is the name. As a particularly open minded skeptic I have a pressing question: namely what is the big deal about ghosts and why is it taking science so long to figure out exactly what is going on with them?
My belief is that the things that were paranormal yesterday will become quantifiable, explainable and maybe controllable tomorrow given enough study, experimentation and innovation. Some people will say that ghosts are simply outside of our understanding ,so does this mean that there is a reality beyond us like an afterlife? Does the belief in ghosts absolutely hinge on the belief of some sort of spirit world? Or is the truth of it more benign and down to Earth. I believe the latter.
I do believe there is something going on with ghosts, spirits what have you SOMETIMES (other times it's just your mind playing tricks) but I don't believe that it's the souls of dead people who couldn't quite make it to Heaven or angry demons from Hell. As a person who believes the Earth came together over millions and life evolved there through complex chemical processes, I must believe that either all living things have some form of "energy" in them released upon death (soul) or none do. For example when I squash a fly or a wasp, why isn't it's ghost haunting me? If I kill a rat, why isn't cheese missing from my fridge night after night and why amn't I hearing eerie squeaking in the wee hours? Is it only some of the higher mammals that have ghosts? Are we really saying that you can evolve a soul? Are there ghostly chimpanzees haunting people in Africa?
How come no major scientific bodies seem to be looking into the matter in significant detail? Sure there have been fringe studies done largely by people who aren't really respected in the scientific community, Konstantine Raudive is one name that come to mind, but it seems to be a catch 22 in that the people who study ghosts are either fringe researchers using dubious methods or the respected people who do study ghosts will then invariably lose a lot of their standing. It seems to me that we'll never get off the ground with it then. It almost seems that the scientific community is afraid to study it. Maybe they wouldn't know where to begin? Maybe they are afraid of what they would find? It's one taboo I would like to see broken.
Like Psychic mediums(bunk) and such we need to bring the ghost phenomenon from the realms of psuedo-science to hard science and be either proven or disproven. I'm so sick of the differing theories,it just reeks of "I really Haven't got a clue" and seem no different from self formulated religious beliefs oftentimes.
But how to begin?0
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True. But believers in the afterlife/ghost theories may state that the negligible results are because you are trying to measure something that can't really be measured. Faked results are another thing and these investigations usually only point to the notion that ghosts do NOT in fact exist with their dubious findings.0
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True. But believers in the afterlife/ghost theories may state that the negligible results are because you are trying to measure something that can't really be measured. Faked results are another thing and these investigations usually only point to the notion that ghosts do NOT in fact exist with their dubious findings.
Yes but I have been with true believers who have faked either intentionally or unintentionally. From being on numerous investigations over the course of half a decade I honestly believe that belief in the paranormal is more of an interesting psychological experiment on the motivations behind mediums, investigators and other people involved in the community.0 -
How come no major scientific bodies seem to be looking into the matter in significant detail? Sure there have been fringe studies done largely by people who aren't really respected in the scientific community, Konstantine Raudive is one name that come to mind, but it seems to be a catch 22 in that the people who study ghosts are either fringe researchers using dubious methods or the respected people who do study ghosts will then invariably lose a lot of their standing.
But how to begin?
Repeatable experiments. Once you have something that can be either repeated in lab conditions or at the same location with certinty then people will get intrested. A photo or a movie of something isn't evidence, neither is a story of an experience.True. But believers in the afterlife/ghost theories may state that the negligible results are because you are trying to measure something that can't really be measured.
By stating that something can't be measured or tested in any way they drive themselves away from science and skeptics by giving up in trying to find an explaination for what's happening.Yes but I have been with true believers who have faked either intentionally or unintentionally.
Unfortunaly in some cases where people are a true believer they can find ghosts and other things where something else is the cause or there's nothing there at all. They can have a bias to believe in a supernatural event0 -
My belief is that the things that were paranormal yesterday will become quantifiable, explainable and maybe controllable tomorrow given enough study, experimentation and innovation. Some people will say that ghosts are simply outside of our understanding ,so does this mean that there is a reality beyond us like an afterlife? Does the belief in ghosts absolutely hinge on the belief of some sort of spirit world? Or is the truth of it more benign and down to Earth. I believe the latter.
I do believe there is something going on with ghosts, spirits what have you SOMETIMES (other times it's just your mind playing tricks) but I don't believe that it's the souls of dead people who couldn't quite make it to Heaven or angry demons from Hell.
I was ranting on about all this over in the Skeptics Corner a few months back.
I think that anything that falls outside the realm of the ordinary would have its case enhanced a lot more if this dopey mystique that's been associated with it all was just stripped away. I'd like to see all of these fancy suit-wearing and well-coiffeured yokes running around after the dead on the TV and in magazines, etc, hunted off into a remote field in the Connemara wilderness. Let them find their spooks there,the eejits.
I have always been very straight about any 'paranormal' (things I couldn't find a rational explanation for, in other words) stuff because I don't get what all the hoo ha is about. I'm not in the habit of talking about anything paranormal with workmates and friends in my everyday life either. That's because I have other interests well outside all of this and because my self-esteem isnt connected to the discussion of the paranormal.
The conclusion Ive reached is that science is slightly lagging behind unexplainable phenomena at the moment, but that some (and not all) phenomena can be quantified, measured and understood using quantum mechanics.
At the end of the day, I'm not too fussed anymore whether or not science can 'prove' that the afterlife and all the other craic is 'real' and that they publish the results in a reputable journal publicly. I just reckon that people can believe whatever they want and do their own thing. The only thing that concerns me are my own life experiences, and there's a lot more to life than paranormal matters anyway. It's never for anyone to tell someone that 'this perspective is correct', 'this is the right belief for you',or whatever, because we live in a democratic society and people should be left to do their own thing within the confines of the law obviously. How I look at things or how I experience things could be miles apart from how other people see things,but people just tend to conform to beliefs and modes of action to be in accordance with social norms.
But I'd be very interested (but not falling over myself wit mad excitement) if a group of impartial scientific researchers conducted some serious paranormal research and saw it through to its comprehensive conclusion, before releasing their honest results. I'm not into any of this 'James Randi discrediting/humiliate 'n' denigrate' business. It doesn't achieve much in the long-term tbh and it's childish as well.0 -
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Agreed, Mojo. To be perfectly honest, I would be very scared to spend the night in a haunted location in fact I would flat out refuse to and a lot of that fear comes not understanding what is going on in that place and hasn't that always been the way of it? That people are scared and confused by what they don't understand?
Maybe there is a whiff of fear in the mainstream scientific community, I don't know. I think a big thing with it could be that they could come under criticism. I mean, why study ghosts when you could be helping find a cure for AIDS or solving world hunger? Why pour years of money and research into something that may reveal nothing? Better yet, why study something that could lead to some truly AWESOME revelations? Maybe it's something better left alone. It's like the old argument that if a government had evidence of ETs with technology that is god like compared to ours why would they reveal it? Among other things, it would devestatingly undermine closely held beliefs of a huge segment of the population eg. that humans are gods chosen creation etc. Could you imagine some evangelist tapping ET on the shoulder asking him to go with Christ?
I'm don't want this to become an ET thing and I certainly don't want it to become a conspiracy theory thing that scientific info on ghosts is being deliberately suppressed. The belief that I am leaning toward is that the ghost phenomenon is something much more closely linked with the mind of the observer than anything else. But I am torn because there's always that ghostly photo, the dead world war 1 soldier is a good example where the face of a man who died in battle appears over a comrades shoulder two weeks later. It gives me chills to think about it but it also means that either my observer theory is wrong or all ghost photos are fake, simple as.
Also EVP is the biggest load of **** ever, like someone saying "Oh this recording is amazing, the spirit appears to say a sentence with the individual words in several different languages." WTF? Seriously? Ghosts are lingustic geniouses who like to f**k with people? If a living person did that regularly they would most likely be considered a wanker wouldn't you agree?
Now OK that last bit was a slight rant and I'm sorry but this subject has bothered me for sometime and everytime I see something like Most Haunted I wonder about it.
I agree that we need the strip away the mystery and myth around it and just do a proper, serious scientific investigation in a location with a long and active history of hauntings and keep people with charged beliefs away from the study. I would love love love to get to the bottom of this thing once and for all, unfortunately I don't know if we ever will.:(0 -
Agreed, Mojo. To be perfectly honest, I would be very scared to spend the night in a haunted location in fact I would flat out refuse to and a lot of that fear comes not understanding what is going on in that place and hasn't that always been the way of it? That people are scared and confused by what they don't understand?
Maybe there is a whiff of fear in the mainstream scientific community, I don't know. I think a big thing with it could be that they could come under criticism. I mean, why study ghosts when you could be helping find a cure for AIDS or solving world hunger? Why pour years of money and research into something that may reveal nothing? Better yet, why study something that could lead to some truly AWESOME revelations? Maybe it's something better left alone. It's like the old argument that if a government had evidence of ETs with technology that is god like compared to ours why would they reveal it? Among other things, it would devestatingly undermine closely held beliefs of a huge segment of the population eg. that humans are gods chosen creation etc. Could you imagine some evangelist tapping ET on the shoulder asking him to go with Christ?
I'm don't want this to become an ET thing and I certainly don't want it to become a conspiracy theory thing that scientific info on ghosts is being deliberately suppressed. The belief that I am leaning toward is that the ghost phenomenon is something much more closely linked with the mind of the observer than anything else. But I am torn because there's always that ghostly photo, the dead world war 1 soldier is a good example where the face of a man who died in battle appears over a comrades shoulder two weeks later. It gives me chills to think about it but it also means that either my observer theory is wrong or all ghost photos are fake, simple as.
Also EVP is the biggest load of **** ever, like someone saying "Oh this recording is amazing, the spirit appears to say a sentence with the individual words in several different languages." WTF? Seriously? Ghosts are lingustic geniouses who like to f**k with people? If a living person did that regularly they would most likely be considered a wanker wouldn't you agree?
Now OK that last bit was a slight rant and I'm sorry but this subject has bothered me for sometime and everytime I see something like Most Haunted I wonder about it.
I agree that we need the strip away the mystery and myth around it and just do a proper, serious scientific investigation in a location with a long and active history of hauntings and keep people with charged beliefs away from the study. I would love love love to get to the bottom of this thing once and for all, unfortunately I don't know if we ever will.:(
thats a hell of a good post....well said.0 -
The problem with science is that most scientist's don't want to run any test's or write any paper's on the subject and the scientist's who do want to are persecuted by one's who don't , the notion that another world exist's outside the physical world we know is something science has stamped out of their text book's and teaching's . I'm not dogging science in anyway i think we all owe science a debt of gratitude for the work they have done over the year's but i think they should stop the fundamentalism and be more open minded to this subject !0
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Luke Kelly wrote: »The problem with science is that most scientist's don't want to run any test's or write any paper's on the subject and the scientist's who do want to are persecuted by one's who don't , the notion that another world exist's outside the physical world we know is something science has stamped out of their text book's and teaching's . I'm not dogging science in anyway i think we all owe science a debt of gratitude for the work they have done over the year's but i think they should stop the fundamentalism and be more open minded to this subject !
Well yeah, it seems to be a credibilty vacuum for scientists and I wouldn't really blame them for not throwing a career away by researching a phenomenon that is so elusive. As for the idea ghosts existing outside of the physical world, this is something I do NOT believe. I believe ghosts if truly something that occours in the world to be as physical as anything else but their mechanisms just aren't properly understood.
If ghosts do exist outside of our physical realm then how come they supposedly can affect our physical realm through appiritions and how come some mediums/experts claim they are affected by ours? For example graveyards are often thought of as prime real estate for hauntings. Why? And if an observer went to to this graveyard and got freaked out and left the graveyard and went to the movies or something, why couldn't these ghosts who haunt there leave the graveyard as well? If you were a ghost would you hang around a graveyard? Is their some forcefield around the graveyard stopping them? If this graveyard was haunted, you always think "Well don't go down there at night cause when all the weird stuff happens".
Again why would a haunted location be more active at night or in the dark? What is it about the night time that gives spooks such an energy boost? Either one of two reasons presuming their existence: A. Night time is dark and in the dark every noise or half seen shadow could be something paranormal to the receptive observer. B. Night time does indeed give some sort of amplification to ghostly activity and strongly points to the idea that they are directly affected by our physical world and thus making a good case for their existence being firmly routed in our physical world as well.0 -
hi, nice topic...:).Hi everybody on the paranormal forum, Brian is the name. As a particularly open minded skeptic I have a pressing question: namely what is the big deal about ghosts and why is it taking science so long to figure out exactly what is going on with them?
My belief is that the things that were paranormal yesterday will become quantifiable, explainable and maybe controllable tomorrow given enough study, experimentation and innovation. Some people will say that ghosts are simply outside of our understanding ,so does this mean that there is a reality beyond us like an afterlife? Does the belief in ghosts absolutely hinge on the belief of some sort of spirit world? Or is the truth of it more benign and down to Earth. I believe the latter.
I do believe there is something going on with ghosts, spirits what have you SOMETIMES (other times it's just your mind playing tricks) but I don't believe that it's the souls of dead people who couldn't quite make it to Heaven or angry demons from Hell. As a person who believes the Earth came together over millions and life evolved there through complex chemical processes, I must believe that either all living things have some form of "energy" in them released upon death (soul) or none do. For example when I squash a fly or a wasp, why isn't it's ghost haunting me? If I kill a rat, why isn't cheese missing from my fridge night after night and why amn't I hearing eerie squeaking in the wee hours? Is it only some of the higher mammals that have ghosts? Are we really saying that you can evolve a soul? Are there ghostly chimpanzees haunting people in Africa?
How come no major scientific bodies seem to be looking into the matter in significant detail? Sure there have been fringe studies done largely by people who aren't really respected in the scientific community, Konstantine Raudive is one name that come to mind, but it seems to be a catch 22 in that the people who study ghosts are either fringe researchers using dubious methods or the respected people who do study ghosts will then invariably lose a lot of their standing. It seems to me that we'll never get off the ground with it then. It almost seems that the scientific community is afraid to study it. Maybe they wouldn't know where to begin? Maybe they are afraid of what they would find? It's one taboo I would like to see broken.
Like Psychic mediums(bunk) and such we need to bring the ghost phenomenon from the realms of psuedo-science to hard science and be either proven or disproven. I'm so sick of the differing theories,it just reeks of "I really Haven't got a clue" and seem no different from self formulated religious beliefs oftentimes.
But how to begin?
i think its the first time i've seen "open-minded skepic" in one sentence and thats not a dig or anything..anyway my only question is this really; why do you believe the truth is more benign and down to earth, then to believe in a kind of spirit world or maybe other differing theories on the matter!?
it just seem's more "skepic" then "open-minded" to me.
science has aways being a tool that we use but at the same time maybe we need more then just science, like religious beliefs....etc.
science itself, shouldn't be seen as belief system to understand everything. if it was the case what a boring world... we would all live in.
i just think we need more then just science to understand, or to go a step further down the paranormal road if you get what i mean.0 -
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hi, nice topic...:).
i think its the first time i've seen "open-minded skepic" in one sentence and thats not a dig or anything..anyway my only question is this really; why do you believe the truth is more benign and down to earth, then to believe in a kind of spirit world or maybe other differing theories on the matter!?
it just seem's more "skepic" then "open-minded" to me.
science has aways being a tool that we use but at the same time maybe we need more then just science, like religious beliefs....etc.
science itself, shouldn't be seen as belief system to understand everything. if it was the case what a boring world... we would all live in.
i just think we need more then just science to understand, or to go a step further down the paranormal road if you get what i mean.
Hi Jonbravo, I'll deal with those points that you have put to me. The reason why I call myself an open minded skeptic is because I don't entirely write off the existence of the ghost/haunting phenomenon, I just say that if it does exist and there is something genuinely bizarre happening, it's existence is tied inextricably to this world and obeys the laws of physics, though maybe physical laws that we do not yet fully understand, more on that later. In terms of the ghost debate there are usually 2 sides: there's the skeptics who pretty much would have to have a ghost appear before them, yell "I am a ghost!", punch them in the face and disappear with the whole event of film in order to come around. Then there are the believers for whom no evidence is really necessary, they may believe to have had personal experience with ghosts even and not much will make them come around to the other side. Me, I like to think I sit on the fence and you all may think that's a cop out but you know maybe there's a better view sitting on a fence from time to time;).
It's true I believe the truth to be more benign but you only need to look at history to see why I think this: ancient tribes have worshipped the sun and moon as gods, believed the earth was flat, earthquakes were acts of divine retribution, will o the wisps were spirits, demonic possession and I could go on. They did not have the scientific knowledge to know about celestial bodies in the way we do, how they were formed and their luminous properties, they did not know about plate tectonics, they did not know about the luminescence of biological compounds, they did not know about violent mental illnesses and schizophrenia and if you went back in time and told them they probably wouldn't believe you. You see how I've demonstrated that the belief in the paranormal becomes eroded over time with ongoing scientific revelation so what makes ghosts and other spirit related phenomena the line that we should not cross? Just because something currently evades scientific understanding does NOT mean that it will never be understood by science. One of the most dangerous things I think is to think that know everything there is to be known and therefore anything out of what we know we can never know, I do not accept that.
As for saying that a scientific world would be a boring world I cannot agree with you on that. There's always cool new stuff to figure out and to get to the bottom of and what could be better than investigating properties of the physical world finding out how they work and maybe using them to make our lives better, hows that electricity working out for you? Scientists are making amazing discoveries and theories about how not only the world works but how REALITY works ,it seems, all the time. Cutting edge theories like M theory, string theory, zero point energy fields, the many worlds interpretation of quantum dynamics and the idea of quantum immortality that derives from that. Quantum mechanics and it's possible implications in many worlds theory may have something to do with hauntings in my opinion in that a events in parallel worlds just as physical as ours can at node points in that universe have physical results in ours eg a cup lifting or a light turning off inexplicably. Now I'm certainly no physicist, maybe someone who knows more about these theories could discuss how they may or may not relate to the ghost phenomenon in depth.
Religious beliefs are good but for the functioning of society more than anything and the great acts of altruism, art, methods of introspection that you can get as a result but for all we know it may have arisen as a necessity when we made the great cognitive leap in our evolution to explain the beauty of the world and to explain all that was unexplainable. I'm not saying I don't believe in god, I consider myself to be a respectful agnostic and I have my own theories on what god might be. Google Posthuman god for more info on that.
Back on topic, the problem with ghosts is that they are often tied to belief in the afterlife with Heaven and Hell. Now many of you here may be firm believers in the afterlife and I respect that wholly but for me, you take a case of demonic possession or something with the spirit identifying itself as a biblical demon with aversion to holy water and some backwards latin or the Amityville Horror with a devilish creature stalking the family with glowing eyes.I think that was outed as a hoax anyway but it just shows you if it was a hoax what form the human imagination would put on the devil and what we would imagine it do and how many times have we seen similar incidents through the ages? Kind of makes you wonder. In such a case you either believe it's happening with all something like that it entails or you don't .I personally simply don't believe in Hell and satan and his demons and all that because it stems from a part of the bible which the chuch is trying to distance itself from as simply mythology or symbolism and there's plenty of religious systems that have existed throughout time that did not belive in satan or have had different opinions on what happens after you die so are they all wrong and we're right or maybe they're right and we're wrong or maybe we're all right or maybe we're all wrong or whatever anyone believes is right for them like they could do only evil and still get into heaven because they believed evil was good but evil is bad but who says evil is bad and what's it's definition? What is good's definition and why ? If an ape kills a person because they encroached on their territory is that evil, will they still go to heaven because they're only animals and they have no free will? Do animals even get into heaven if it exists and why? People have seen ghost animals or they claim to have so wouldn't that mean there is an afterlife for them according to traditional thinking? But doesn't the bible/korean/torah/various other religious texts say only people have souls and go to heaven/hell? It all seems a bit mad and convoluted to me.
This is where my friends, we may disagree irreconcilably if that's a word because for some people ghosts and the afterlife will always be linked. For them ghosts are the confirmation that you live on after you die which is a comforting thought for sure.
To sum up my belief, I believe in (some) hauntings in that the phenomena may exist outside of hoaxes but I my thinking is that whatever IS causing it, it's not the spirits of the dead. Thanks for reading.
P.S. I know I edited this alot but I kind of just got in a zone and started writing and had to go back and correct some stuff and I know belief can be a charged word and that I use it here so you can replace it with theorise or whatever in your head, I can't be bothered to edit this anymore,lol.0 -
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Also EVP is the biggest load of **** ever, like someone saying "Oh this recording is amazing, the spirit appears to say a sentence with the individual words in several different languages." WTF? Seriously? Ghosts are lingustic geniouses who like to f**k with people? If a living person did that regularly they would most likely be considered a wanker wouldn't you agree?
(
I've trying to capture an EVP for 5 years, once I had a recording that had something slightly strange on it. So I have to agree with the above, even though I will try again. My own particular problem with EVP collections is that in most cases there is an intro, or a question asked before the mumble, highly suggestive, particularly when people ask for a name, there are so many names, some will also work in different languages increasing the possibilities for a hit further.
Having said that I am part of a group. I've been to many "haunted places" in Ireland and elsewhere and I have seen or heard nothing to convince me that ghosts exist. Recently I attended an experiment where we were guaranteed a sighting of a physical form (not the first such claim I heard). It was very dark, too dark, when we asked for more light we were told that white light destroys ectoplasm, and it this ectoplasm that forms shapes that we will all see possibly touch.
But nothing happened, the guy told us that there was someone who was negative in the room holding them back, I suggested it was me and offered to leave, but apparently it was not me. Some people in the room saw things, I did see a light that turned out to be the reflection of a zip. It was suggested that with a very logical brain like mine that the brain can force me not to see things other people see.
Many things are possible I guess, but when explanations can be stretched to an extent that one could doubt what they see over and above what is "there" there is little point in engaging in discussion about faith. Some things were explained as "FACT"
Might as well bring an EMF meter into Mass on Sunday as I think that this type of belief mixed with science approach is religious. I am honestly sick of people trying to confuse me with quantum physics as part of the whole ghosts exist argument. Pick a bit of a theory here, ignore some here, mix in a bit of my own person experience here. If you can't see it, it might be because you are too logical.
I have always tried to respect people opinion and I listen to what they have to say. I have enjoyed many a conversation with people who claim to be psychic, and I can't say either way if they are or not. An overly confident individual will never convince me.0 -
I've trying to capture an EVP for 5 years, once I had a recording that had something slightly strange on it. So I have to agree with the above, even though I will try again. My own particular problem with EVP collections is that in most cases there is an intro, or a question asked before the mumble, highly suggestive, particularly when people ask for a name, there are so many names, some will also work in different languages increasing the possibilities for a hit further.
Having said that I am part of a group. I've been to many "haunted places" in Ireland and elsewhere and I have seen or heard nothing to convince me that ghosts exist. Recently I attended an experiment where we were guaranteed a sighting of a physical form (not the first such claim I heard). It was very dark, too dark, when we asked for more light we were told that white light destroys ectoplasm, and it this ectoplasm that forms shapes that we will all see possibly touch.
But nothing happened, the guy told us that there was someone who was negative in the room holding them back, I suggested it was me and offered to leave, but apparently it was not me. Some people in the room saw things, I did see a light that turned out to be the reflection of a zip. It was suggested that with a very logical brain like mine that the brain can force me not to see things other people see.
Many things are possible I guess, but when explanations can be stretched to an extent that one could doubt what they see over and above what is "there" there is little point in engaging in discussion about faith. Some things were explained as "FACT"
Might as well bring an EMF meter into Mass on Sunday as I think that this type of belief mixed with science approach is religious. I am honestly sick of people trying to confuse me with quantum physics as part of the whole ghosts exist argument. Pick a bit of a theory here, ignore some here, mix in a bit of my own person experience here. If you can't see it, it might be because you are too logical.
I have always tried to respect people opinion and I listen to what they have to say. I have enjoyed many a conversation with people who claim to be psychic, and I can't say either way if they are or not. An overly confident individual will never convince me.
If you have been collecting EVP recordings for over 5 years with little on them and have found little on them, why do you continue?
I threw the idea of quantum physics out there as an idea, a hypothesis on the cause of the haunting phenomenon but it's only an idea but to me it's an intriguing idea. I ask any physicists on the board to discuss the issue further as they'd have better knowledge of how it works and what it's real implications are.
You said about a negative person in the room during an expected ghostly happening, why would this negativity stop the ghost from appearing? Is it a case of it will only appear if you really believe it will? Is it to do with negative energy that I sometimes hear about from the mouths of psychics and mediums? What is this energy? Could we possibly use to power something? Is it like that kind of energy or is it more of a "Vibe"?
If ectoplasm is a real substance, couldn't the residue be collected for analysis? Is it's existence confirmed or does it supposedly have strange properties that would make collecting a sample impossible?
To paraphrase the Fermi paradox, "If ghosts exist, why aren't the obvious" why aren't they picking up cars and twirling them around at night time? Are they not strong enough? Do they need to draw on the "energy" of a crowd of people? Why can't they do something spectacular like that to many eyewitnesses or on film? Why must it always be the half seen shadow, the illegible writing on scrawled on a wall or the static muttered into a tape?0 -
Maybe its harder for them to contact the living world.0
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Hi everybody on the paranormal forum, Brian is the name. As a particularly open minded skeptic I have a pressing question: namely what is the big deal about ghosts and why is it taking science so long to figure out exactly what is going on with them?
My belief is that the things that were paranormal yesterday will become quantifiable, explainable and maybe controllable tomorrow given enough study, experimentation and innovation. Some people will say that ghosts are simply outside of our understanding ,so does this mean that there is a reality beyond us like an afterlife? Does the belief in ghosts absolutely hinge on the belief of some sort of spirit world? Or is the truth of it more benign and down to Earth. I believe the latter.
I do believe there is something going on with ghosts, spirits what have you SOMETIMES (other times it's just your mind playing tricks) but I don't believe that it's the souls of dead people who couldn't quite make it to Heaven or angry demons from Hell. As a person who believes the Earth came together over millions and life evolved there through complex chemical processes, I must believe that either all living things have some form of "energy" in them released upon death (soul) or none do. For example when I squash a fly or a wasp, why isn't it's ghost haunting me? If I kill a rat, why isn't cheese missing from my fridge night after night and why amn't I hearing eerie squeaking in the wee hours? Is it only some of the higher mammals that have ghosts? Are we really saying that you can evolve a soul? Are there ghostly chimpanzees haunting people in Africa?
How come no major scientific bodies seem to be looking into the matter in significant detail? Sure there have been fringe studies done largely by people who aren't really respected in the scientific community, Konstantine Raudive is one name that come to mind, but it seems to be a catch 22 in that the people who study ghosts are either fringe researchers using dubious methods or the respected people who do study ghosts will then invariably lose a lot of their standing. It seems to me that we'll never get off the ground with it then. It almost seems that the scientific community is afraid to study it. Maybe they wouldn't know where to begin? Maybe they are afraid of what they would find? It's one taboo I would like to see broken.
Like Psychic mediums(bunk) and such we need to bring the ghost phenomenon from the realms of psuedo-science to hard science and be either proven or disproven. I'm so sick of the differing theories,it just reeks of "I really Haven't got a clue" and seem no different from self formulated religious beliefs oftentimes.
But how to begin?
The problem with ghosts and science? Well lets start off with defining what a ghost is. In order to bring this into the realm of science, you would have to capture a ghost, contain it and examine/test it. Collect specimens just like in any other field of science. The thing is we cant do that, and we know nothing about ghosts to even formulate some kind of way to do it. So you are right there is nowhere to begin, apart from the shooting in the dark methods used by paranormal investigators.
An example of this would be an EMF meter used to detect electromagnetic fields, a device often used by paranormal investigators. In order to believe this is an effective way of detecting some kind of paranormal presence or ghost, you first must assume that ghosts give off or cause/alter electromagnetic fields. How do they know this? What verfiable tests have been done to show that ghosts give off/cause/alter EM fields?
Catching a shadow or something unexplained on camera is just that, unexplained. The minute you call it a ghost you are attempting to explain it based not on any evidence but on a whole lot of assumptions that usually are connected to expectations or personal beliefs.
For these reasons, the paranormal is viewed by the scientific community as a kind of belief system and therefore nothing to do with science because there is no real evidence for paranormal claims that can be repeated and tested.
It seems there is an idea going around for some that scientists are in some elite club that wants to have everything their own way and ignores things it doesnt agree with or is scared of. It couldn't be further from the truth, there is huge competition within the field of science. A scientist who scientifically verified the existence of ghosts would go down in the history books and receive universal acclaim. If there were something to these paranormal claims then without a doubt the mainstream scientific community would be all over it.
Also, the CIA did some serious research into the paranormal during the 70's, hoping that they could use it to their advantage during the cold war (although im not sure it had anything to do with "ghosts"). Nothing ever came of it and it was dropped.0 -
The problem with ghosts and science? Well lets start off with defining what a ghost is. In order to bring this into the realm of science, you would have to capture a ghost, contain it and examine/test it. Collect specimens just like in any other field of science. The thing is we cant do that, and we know nothing about ghosts to even formulate some kind of way to do it. So you are right there is nowhere to begin, apart from the shooting in the dark methods used by paranormal investigators.
An example of this would be an EMF meter used to detect electromagnetic fields, a device often used by paranormal investigators. In order to believe this is an effective way of detecting some kind of paranormal presence or ghost, you first must assume that ghosts give off or cause/alter electromagnetic fields. How do they know this? What verfiable tests have been done to show that ghosts give off/cause/alter EM fields?
Catching a shadow or something unexplained on camera is just that, unexplained. The minute you call it a ghost you are attempting to explain it based not on any evidence but on a whole lot of assumptions that usually are connected to expectations or personal beliefs.
For these reasons, the paranormal is viewed by the scientific community as a kind of belief system and therefore nothing to do with science because there is no real evidence for paranormal claims that can be repeated and tested.
It seems there is an idea going around for some that scientists are in some elite club that wants to have everything their own way and ignores things it doesnt agree with or is scared of. It couldn't be further from the truth, there is huge competition within the field of science. A scientist who scientifically verified the existence of ghosts would go down in the history books and receive universal acclaim. If there were something to these paranormal claims then without a doubt the mainstream scientific community would be all over it.
Also, the CIA did some serious research into the paranormal during the 70's, hoping that they could use it to their advantage during the cold war (although im not sure it had anything to do with "ghosts"). Nothing ever came of it and it was dropped.
It's true there seems to be nowhere begin. It's sort of like trying to pin down something that, when you try and reach out and touch it, your hand goes right through it and it disappears.
It's definately the killer with ghosts that there's alot of "Because I said so" mentality in the community like that ghosts supposedly influence EM fields, that they give off this substance called ectoplasm, that they feed off the energy of people etc. and we're supposed to just believe all these things?
Who originally explained that these things were so?
These things are all in the realm of psuedo science and seem to me like an effort to bring ghosts more credibility in serious scientific circles but it just doesn't work does it. At least if ectoplasm's a real physical substance, couldn't someone just collect a sample? Oh wait doesn't sunlight destroy ectoplasm? Well very convenient....
If you ask me whatever's at the bottom of the ghost phenomenon is always gonna be fascinating, whether it's something truly paranormal or it's all tricks of the mind or hoaxes with people doing anything they can to back up their claims and make them look genuine. Any of those are equally interesting to me. At least if we knew then we wouldn't have to be afraid of it and we that spend the night in that old house where all the people died horrifically and not spend the night in the bed not getting a whole lot of sleep. Admittedly you shouldn't be able to sleep in such a horrible murder house with the knowledge of what went on there. I just wanna know what's really going on, though I'm fully aware it could be a whole lot of different phenomena that lead to the same conclusion and not any one thing that you can draw a line under.
For me it boils down to 3 questions:
1. Are all hauntings debunkable or is there something unexplainable happening?
2. How can these unexplainable events ever be made explainable?
3. Are there any cases that have so far defied explaination and are worthy of further study and can anyone point me to them, please?0 -
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If you have been collecting EVP recordings for over 5 years with little on them and have found little on them, why do you continue?
Very good question that I've asked myself a lot. At the end of the day this is a hobby that I have fun doing with friends, I'm not driven to try to explain or prove anything, I'm still at the stage where I'm interested in establishing to myself if there is someting there to explain in the first place. In that time I have tried different places and approaches. I have almost given up but not yet.I threw the idea of quantum physics out there as an idea, a hypothesis on the cause of the haunting phenomenon but it's only an idea but to me it's an intriguing idea. I ask any physicists on the board to discuss the issue further as they'd have better knowledge of how it works and what it's real implications are.
It is an intriguing idea, not addressing you here BTW, my concern is with people who think that as they understand some theory that this allows them to strap their own convictions to this understanding. It's a difficult subject to work out, some people zone out when it is discussed allowing some psychics to appear to be all knowing. Do you get where I'm coming from?0 -
Very good question that I've asked myself a lot. At the end of the day this is a hobby that I have fun doing with friends, I'm not driven to try to explain or prove anything, I'm still at the stage where I'm interested in establishing to myself if there is someting there to explain in the first place. In that time I have tried different places and approaches. I have almost given up but not yet.
It is an intriguing idea, not addressing you here BTW, my concern is with people who think that as they understand some theory that this allows them to strap their own convictions to this understanding. It's a difficult subject to work out, some people zone out when it is discussed allowing some psychics to appear to be all knowing. Do you get where I'm coming from?
I can certainly respect it as a hobby and as a kind of research although to me it be it would be more research into how the human mind can decipher patterns from static in sound than anything else. I just don't buy someone telling me that just because you die, you can suddenly speak portuguese and latin or speak in sentances with strange grammatical structures etc. if you get what I'm saying.
As an EVP enthusiast, what are your opinions on the work of George Meek and his spiricom, an electronic device used for communication with the dead?
I remember hearing about it on that program "Jane Goldman investigates" and thinking the recordings were quite spooky sounding but I didn't believe it, something like that is far too easily faked in my opinion. And the machine mysteriously disappeared, and I couldn't help but think that's a bit too convinient.....
Certainly an explaination in quantum physics is possible. I'm all about possibilities and I know enough to know that I don't really know anything and anything that I've been told should be questioned to test it's integrity, that's what I believe. I also like the idea of the stone tape as a possibility. However I'm fully aware that you shouldn't be basing an idea off having seen a 70's bbc horror show but it's still a fascinating idea, I can't help but find it intriguing as an idea.
What happens in my mind when I ask questions about ghosts is that the questions will branch out into other areas of "The fringe" so to speak like mediums, the afterlife, the problem of evil, etc. in my mind they all become mixed up and I find them hard to separate.
I still don't personally believe it's the disembodied spirits of the dead though, and whatever it is, we will know for sure one day.0 -
i dont think its currently possible to make the paranormal scientific. Theres definitely room for common sense and a logical approach but scientific? Naw, not really.
Theres a lot of talk of quantum physics and the paranormal and its an area I *would* find interesting if I could fathom out anything about quantum physics. From what I can work out its as fanciful as the paranormal itself (check out gravitons) so therefore cant really be used at present as any kind of explaination.0 -
An example of this would be an EMF meter used to detect electromagnetic fields, a device often used by paranormal investigators. In order to believe this is an effective way of detecting some kind of paranormal presence or ghost, you first must assume that ghosts give off or cause/alter electromagnetic fields.
I wouldn't make any such assumption.
I think you'll probably find most paranormal investiagtors use EMF devices to check for unhealthy levels of electromagnetic radiation, which can and do affect the human brain.
And my god - do you believe in ectoplasm? Again i really doubt any researcher would agree with you there.0 -
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i dont think its currently possible to make the paranormal scientific. Theres definitely room for common sense and a logical approach but scientific? Naw, not really.
Theres a lot of talk of quantum physics and the paranormal and its an area I *would* find interesting if I could fathom out anything about quantum physics. From what I can work out its as fanciful as the paranormal itself (check out gravitons) so therefore cant really be used at present as any kind of explaination.
Just to even strip away all the superstition would make me happy but are they too linked?
I agree quantum physics is crazy, theoretical particles, particles that are in two places at once, particles that pop in and out of existance but at least the subject can be approached from a logical and verifiable point of view, they are lining up an experiment on zero point energy fields ,an interesting subject in quantum physics, at CERN as far as I know. It's kind of ironic that we talk of strange things in the paranormal but yet there are fields of scientific discipline that are studying things that are so much stranger and harder to grasp. What really exists anyway? When you look at the insides of an atom, what's on the insides of it's insides and what's on the insides of those insides and what's on the insides of those insides and on and on and on and on? Is it turtles all the way down so to speak?0 -
agree with you completely and I think you will find a divide when it comes to the paranormal. there are some who look at it like you do and theres others who look at it from the whole 'superstition' angle. the two halves make the whole.
In scientific circles, I'd say quantum physics is laughed at as much as the paranormal. As I say, look at gravitons - things that only exist due to the fact that something is missing. like, wtf? But damn interesting though.0 -
agree with you completely and I think you will find a divide when it comes to the paranormal. there are some who look at it like you do and theres others who look at it from the whole 'superstition' angle. the two halves make the whole.
In scientific circles, I'd say quantum physics is laughed at as much as the paranormal. As I say, look at gravitons - things that only exist due to the fact that something is missing. like, wtf? But damn interesting though.
It would be interesting to do a survey on the number of people who believe that ghosts exist and the the proportion of those who believe in the afterlife and I suspect that there would be a correlation but it's only a suspicion. You could also do a survey on the number of people who don't believe in ghosts and the proportion of those who don't believe in an afterlife and again see if there is a correlation. This is why I think the superstition issue can be so divisive because a belief in that ghosts exist and reading about all the cases of hauntings can prove quite compelling evidence of a life after death. On the other hand, reading about all the debunkings of these cases can prove evidencial to the contrary and reaffirm a belief in no life afterlife but it all depends on which way you are leaning in the first place and it can really colour how you see things and what information you decide to take in and which you decide to ignore although I am not saying that the two sets of beliefs are mutually exclusive.To me it's all about feeling good and reassured that you are right and if we've seen anything in these last 200,000 years of humanity it's that people will usually do whatever can be done to feel good,happy and content even if it's only in the short term.
But you can't really get anyone that sits on neither side of the divide, can you?
Also absolutely cannot about quantum physics being laughed at though, strange as it may be. I mean, if the construction of a 17 mile tunnel under the surface of Switzerland to slam sub atomic particles into one another and see what happens is the result of a scientific community laughing at quantum physics then I'd love to see what they'd do if they were serious about it!!:P0 -
in my head, to be skeptical about it you really need to actually sit on the fence. If you comnpletly believe, you are being biased, and if you completely dont believe, you are also biased. i think to research this you have to be able to keep an open mind.0
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I mean, if the construction of a 17 mile tunnel under the surface of Switzerland to slam sub atomic particles into one another and see what happens is the result of a scientific community laughing at quantum physics then I'd love to see what they'd do if they were serious about it!!:P
They didnt just get that for christmas - its taken years. plus its something that needs to be done - we need to study atoms smashing into each other deeper to find out just what the story is with the missing energy. The idea is studying subatomic particle collisions but its still science more so that just quantum physics and nothing else, since science suggests energy cant just disappear.
Theres many areas that are laughed at or frowned upon, though as I alluded to earlier, I don't know enough on the subject to debate it.0 -
I wouldn't make any such assumption.
I think you'll probably find most paranormal investiagtors use EMF devices to check for unhealthy levels of electromagnetic radiation, which can and do affect the human brain.
Well thats the first time i've heard that explanation being given for EMF meter use. A quick look on the TAPS official website says otherwise: http://www.the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/articles/technical/emfintro.html , specificallyTAPS wrote:[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]EMF detectors alert investigators to the presence of ghosts by measuring electromagnetic distortion in the two to seven milligauss range.[/font]
andTAPS wrote:[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Paranormal Activity will usually register in the range of 2.0 to 7.0 milligauss. [/font]And my god - do you believe in ectoplasm? Again i really doubt any researcher would agree with you there.
I never mentioned nor do I know what ectoplasm is!
EDIT: After checking some other sites i see that there are people who also use EMF meters for the reason you explained0 -
Well of course such a thing did not drop into their hands, it's taken a long time to get there. Some of the experiments will involve smashing sub-atomic particles into one another and seeing what happens which is pertinent to the field of QM in some cases at the least as far as i know so that's all I'm saying. I was watching that BBC documentary on black holes the other and it was very interesting especially talking about the difficulty in combining quantum mechanics and special relativity so there's definately controversy there.
Anyway this is all going a little off topic I feel. Don't want this getting into a debate too much on the finer points of things we don't really understand.:P
EMF is interesting. If EMF messes with peoples' perception, causes hallucinations, strange feelings etc. could they account for what happens in an allegedly haunted location and what would cause them? Don't EMFs happen from power sources and such? If EMF flux were the cause why don't their effects happen more often all over the place?0 -
Interesting thread. I am in general a skeptic, no after life, no spirits coming back etc. Unfortunately my one and only ghost experience can't simply be explained away so glibly. It was simple, in my sister's house in London, downstairs in what would have been the servants quarters. Something or someone passed through. My initial interpretation was that it was someone in the street outside even though it was a cul de sac and we were at the end of it. Thought little more of it but brought it up in conversation with another sister once. She confirmed the same experience. Someone came into the room and passed through, my brother the same, a family friend too, another sister then another. (Big family) Now it was getting spooky. Notable too was the consistency of the experience. Passing through the room, although my rational interpretation was that someone was outside.
Later we told our sister, the owner of the house. She was totally matter of a fact about it. They had even seen someone on the stairs heading towards the room. We had kept our experience from her so as not to scare her. But she knew and didn't tell us so as not to scare us.
Nobody was actually scared by the experience, except in retrospect.
In another incident a girl I knew told us a funny story of how her sister's boyfriend was scared when she told him of the ghost that walked down the corridor in a house on her family's farm. I remarked that it was cruel to scare him like that with silly stories. She became quite indignant and pointed out she had seen the ghost regularly, always the same thing, the same woman large as life walking down the corridor. It was just normal to her.
When you look at ghost stories there is a consistent pattern, the ghost repeats the same actions again and again. Where it goes wrong is when people add their own interpetation, their expectation, their fears.
But many ghost stories simply appear to be a replay of a former event. Like a video, a playback. We accept the idea of watching TV or DVDs and see dead people reenact something they did many years ago but somehow we cannot accept that there may indeed be a naturally occurring phenonemon that replays images from the past when conditions are right.
I came to several conclusions. So why are they seen at night, simple movies are shown in the dark and even TV is better with the light down. These images are faint. It's easier to see them in poor light. Why aren't ghosts all around. Well you probably need conditions to be just right. Not only for the recording of the image but also the replay, analagous to havng a camcorder handy. To further confirm my idea, a 'ghost hunter' on TV once expressed similar ideas. He suggested certain types rock were conducive to these 'recordings' and if you like certain conditions of temperature or humidity are needed to replay the image. I suppose what I'm saying is that ghosts are merely fleeting holograms of a past event. By definition it is possible that a living person can have a ghost.
That all may sound mad, but then I'm not the only mad person out there. The ghost phenomenon exist, of that there can be little doubt and in my opinion it could be scientifically explained as Briany suggests. So why isn't it? Quite simply because ghosts and spirits and the paranormal attract all the sort of lunatics, dreamers, fantasists, fakes, losers that we come to expect. No scientist who values his or her career will dare venture into the field, let alone allow themselves to be featured on 'Most Haunted'. Has anyone actually ever seen a ghost on that bloody show?
I think it can be explained, not only that. I believe it could be repeatable by simply recreating the conditions the produce the images. To follow my logic, it might even be possible to find new images once you realise what's required to replay the image from the past.
Will it happen soon? No, not as long as the 'paranormal' remains paranormal and left to the freaks.
Just imagine the tourist potential? Imagine inviting people around to view your previous tenants in your 'haunted house'.:cool:0 -
Well Diver I think what you are referring to is the stone tape theory in short and if that's the case it is in an interesting theory it would be a great explainations for apparitions and it could have something happening, who knows?
But what troubles me with that theory is the ghost phenomenon is not just limited to apparitions, what about so called "Intelligent hauntings" where the ghost can apparently interact with the physical world and even communicate with those in close quarters. If these things were so and I'm not saying they are by any means but if they were they would not indicate just a simple "Playback" so to speak would they?0 -
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The trouble with this is that they aren't saying why it can't be measured or offering any proof that it can't be measured. They say it's from somewhere "outside our existence" but offer no evidence of this other place either.But believers in the afterlife/ghost theories may state that the negligible results are because you are trying to measure something that can't really be measured.
Take something that really can't be measured - the speed and position of a sub-atomic particle. There is an explanation for why this can't be measured (Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle).
But then you take ghosts, they say it can't be measured simply because no one has ever measured one. But this would also be the case if they simply didn't exist.
If you saw a ghost, then it can be measured because your eye picked up the light coming from it. Even if for some reason it doesn't show up on photographic film or the censors used by digital cameras, we already have an example of a machine which can pick it up. (A human eye) and so theoretically at least, it's measurable.
The only other explanation is that the "ghost" is between your eye and your brain in which case it's your mind playing tricks on you.0
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