Public sector earnings up 3.2% in year to June

ei.sdraob

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/public-sector-earnings-up-32-in-year-to-june-1923217.html

The Central Statistics Office says average weekly earnings in the all areas of the public sector excluding the health service increased by 3.2% in the 12 months up to June of this year.

The figure includes overtime payments and does not take account of deductions like tax, PRSI and the pension levy introduced by the Government earlier this year.

The CSO says average weekly earnings in the civil service rose by 4.7% during the 12-month period, while earnings in the defence sector were up 4.3% and earnings in An Garda Siochana fell by 3.1%.

In the four years up to June 2009, average weekly earnings across the public sector (excluding health) increased by just over 16%.

Elsewhere, the CSO says total employment numbers in the public service fell by 2,700 between June 2008 and June 2009

so much for "paycuts" we keep hearing about and strikes

the economy is now at 2004 levels (if not worse) while the public sector are getting larger paychecks still

discuss

Tabnabs

More on the RTE business website

Public pay up, but employment down
Friday, 23 October 2009 12:38

Figures from the Central Statistics Office show that gross average weekly earnings in the public sector rose by 3.2% in the year to June.

The figures also show, for the first time, an annual decrease of 3,300 in the numbers employed in the public sector.

The figures published today by the CSO are for gross earnings and do not account for the impact of the pension levy or income levy. They show average earnings in the public sector, excluding health, rose by 3.2% in the year to June, to €973.09.
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The CSO also said that the number of people employed in the public sector in June was 259,300, a drop of 3,300 on the same period last year. These figures also exclude the health sector. There was a 900 drop in the civil service and a fall of 3,500 in the number of people employed in regional bodies. The education sector recorded a 2,200 increase in employment over the year.

A breakdown of the earnings figures showed that weekly earnings in the civil service rose at an annual rate of 4.7%, while the increase in defence was 4.3%. But the average for Gardaí fell 3.1% to €1,208.50 a week. When overtime was excluded, however, there was an average increase of 0.6% to €1,099.25 for Gardaí.

While it remains the subject of intense debate, it is difficult to draw comparisons with earnings in the private sector. The latest figures there, which date from April, show earnings falling by 11.1% in the financial sector but increasing by 6.1% in manufacturing.

Figures from the Central Statistics Office show that gross average weekly earnings in the public sector rose by 3.2% in the year to June.

The figures also show, for the first time, an annual decrease of 3,300 in the numbers employed in the public sector.

The figures published today by the CSO are for gross earnings and do not account for the impact of the pension levy or income levy. They show average earnings in the public sector, excluding health, rose by 3.2% in the year to June, to €973.09.

The CSO also said that the number of people employed in the public sector in June was 259,300, a drop of 3,300 on the same period last year. These figures also exclude the health sector. There was a 900 drop in the civil service and a fall of 3,500 in the number of people employed in regional bodies. The education sector recorded a 2,200 increase in employment over the year.

A breakdown of the earnings figures showed that weekly earnings in the civil service rose at an annual rate of 4.7%, while the increase in defence was 4.3%. But the average for Gardaí fell 3.1% to €1,208.50 a week. When overtime was excluded, however, there was an average increase of 0.6% to €1,099.25 for Gardaí.

While it remains the subject of intense debate, it is difficult to draw comparisons with earnings in the private sector. The latest figures there, which date from April, show earnings falling by 11.1% in the financial sector but increasing by 6.1% in manufacturing.

I wish I earned an average public sector wage

uncle_sam_ie

Not for Nurse's. My wife is down 700 Euro's and now they want to take more.

P. Breathnach

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so much for "paycuts" we keep hearing about and strikes

The report clearly says that the pension levy has not been taken into account.

the economy is now at 2004 levels (if not worse) while the public sector are getting larger paychecks still

discuss

A possibility: large numbers of temporary and contract staff have been "let go"; in general, they would have been lower-paid workers, so their being removed from the payroll would push the average up.

FGR

Excludes the pension levy; which has allowed Government to retain an additional 7.5% in salaries handed out.

Overtime is bound to be on the increase as staff retire. They're not going to be replaced so what else can they do to keep current levels of service?

EDIT: I'm in the PS for nearly four years and I'm nowhere near the average PS wage. Wish I had it! As for the Garda average salary - bear in mind they're not referring to just the Garda on the beat; but every other rank up to and including Commissioner.

uncle_sam_ie

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

Not for Nurse's. My wife is down 700 Euro's and now they want to take more.

Sorry, that's 700 a month

gazzer

I dont know how they can say that salaries have risen in the year to June 09. As a CS the last pay rise I got was in Mar 08 (2.5%) Havnt gotten any extra money since then.

ei.sdraob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The report clearly says that the pension levy has not been taken into account.



A possibility: large numbers of temporary and contract staff have been "let go"; in general, they would have been lower-paid workers, so their being removed from the payroll would push the average up.

interesting perspective there

yes thats trouble with statistics so many variables can be left out

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

Not for Nurse's. My wife is down 700 Euro's and now they want to take more.

report excludes health sector

graduate

I dont know how they can say that salaries have risen in the year to June 09. As a CS the last pay rise I got was in Mar 08 (2.5%)

Some people did receive their pay increase (from this old cycle of increases) after June.

Rob67

The pay increase is probably the one awarded as part of the last partnership agreement and was paid out Sept 2008. There were no further increases in pay for rank and file CS, PS personnel but a special award was given to higher PS in Feb/Mar this year.

It should be remembered that these figures do not take into account the income levy (08 budget), the PS pay freeze and Pension Levy (Apr 09 budget).

As to overtime payments, members of the Defence Forces do not receive overtime payments, so I can only assume the overtime would be in relation to CS personnel in the Dept of Defence and the Gardai (due to not having enough members, those that remain have to provide the same amount of cover).

But please, feel free to release the vitriol against the PS, if it makes you feel better.

uncle_sam_ie

ei.sdraob wrote: »

interesting perspective there

yes thats trouble with statistics so many variables can be left out



report excludes health sector

Ya , but the media is making it sound like it's across the board just like they did with the bonuses. My wife has never received a bonus. Her sister works in the private sector and gets an 8 grand bonus at christmas, a company car with free diesel and medical benefits. Four years at university and all my wife gets is abuse from the public that she's over payed.

ceret

what's interesting is that means the *average* public sector worker is on €50K per year (average of €973 per week x 52 weeks).

For the record the CSO document is here: http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/psempearn.pdf

topper75

If the company I work for was borrowing money to keep paying my wages I'd be worried.

If the people at the helm then caved into my demand to be paid even more under such circumstances...

well ... you don't need to be a business consultant to know what comes next, do you?

ParkRunner

Another day, another strategically designed pre-budget report with eye-catching headlines that distorts the current situation in relation to public sector pay.

ei.sdraob

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

Ya , but the media is making it sound like it's across the board just like they did with the bonuses. My wife has never received a bonus. Her sister works in the private sector and gets an 8 grand bonus at christmas, a company car with free diesel and medical benefits. Four years at university and all my wife gets is abuse from the public that she's over payed.

i do realize there is warping being done here, and the indo have their own agenda



just a simple question

if the public sector have it so bad as you make out

why not quit a and get a job in the private sector?

kippy

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i do realize there is warping being done here, and the indo have their own agenda



just a simple question

if the public sector have it so bad as you make out

why not quit a and get a job in the private sector?

T

Thats what I would recommend also.
Always review your work situation, if you believe you can do better elsewhere, make a plan to get to that place.

Anyway, I have to say, I am getting sick of the one sided reporting from the indo.
I would like to see the figures in relation to public sector net pay (what it actually costs the government to pay the public sector) as opposed to gross. But that figure wouldnt make good headlines.
What P Breathnach said there also makes slight sense but perhaps this has been account for in the figures, who knows really.
The only increased in the Public sector have been via increments in the past couple of years (not a system I have ever agreed with and think it should be scrapped for proper performance review) but those have been wiped out with the pensions levy and various other taxes.
Yeah, the Public service are in for another 5-10% cut in earnings in Jan, and its needed, of course, but the concerted efforts of some papers to turn people against people is just pure wrong.

Twin-go

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Excludes the pension levy; which has allowed Government to retain an additional 7.5% in salaries handed out.

Overtime is bound to be on the increase as staff retire. They're not going to be replaced so what else can they do to keep current levels of service?

EDIT: I'm in the PS for nearly four years and I'm nowhere near the average PS wage. Wish I had it! As for the Garda average salary - bear in mind they're not referring to just the Garda on the beat; but every other rank up to and including Commissioner.

Work a 40hr week like the rest of us?:p

uncle_sam_ie

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i do realize there is warping being done here, and the indo have their own agenda



just a simple question

if the public sector have it so bad as you make out

why not quit a and get a job in the private sector?

Well, that's what was happening a few years ago. Nurses were leaving to go into the private sector. There was a huge drive to bring in foreign nurses from overseas like the Philippines and India to fill the gap. A friend of hers went to work for Google and another went to work for a drug company. The only thing that kept my wife from leaving was the fact that she actually likes nursing, but she was temped to go.

ei.sdraob

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

Well, that's what was happening a few years ago. Nurses were leaving to go into the privet sector. There was a huge drive to bring in foreign nurses from overseas like the Philippines and India to fill the gap. A friend of hers went to work for Google and another went to work for a drug company. The only thing that kept my wife from leaving was the fact that she actually likes nursing, but she was temped to go.

and she should

but theres no job security and no nice pension packages

and more than often no trade unions allowed

shapez

ceret wrote: »

what's interesting is that means the *average* public sector worker is on €50K per year (average of €973 per week x 52 weeks).

For the record the CSO document is here: http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/psempearn.pdf

And does it tell you how long it took for a public sector employee to get to that wage?? I'm 10 years working in the public sector and I worked damn hard to get to the level of pay I'm making after 10 years.

When I first got my job 10 years ago in the public sector, I was laughed at by people I studied with in college when they were getting jobs at the time, saying that "Oh, I'm making 25-30k more than what you make!!", "I get a bonus of 5-8k at Xmas!!", "I get a free car, a phone, laptop, etc." It didn't bother me at all, I wanted security in my job. So, after 10 years in the public sector, I'm making what a private sector person was making 10 years ago.

Some of you here need to realise this, because basically you don't stop to think about what the public sector pay was like 10 years ago. My pay has been cut too, with levies and what else. I'm not being selfish, I'm feeling the pinch too, but I remember when I was laughed at 10 years ago and I still have my job today.

ei.sdraob

shapez wrote: »

And does it tell you how long it took for a public sector employee to get to that wage?? I'm 10 years working in the public sector and I worked damn hard to get to the level of pay I'm making after 10 years.

When I first got my job 10 years ago in the public sector, I was laughed at by people I studied with in college when they were getting jobs at the time, saying that "Oh, I'm making 25-30k more than what you make!!", "I get a bonus of 5-8k at Xmas!!", "I get a free car, a phone, laptop, etc." It didn't bother me at all, I wanted security in my job. So, after 10 years in the public sector, I'm making what a private sector person was making 10 years ago.

Some of you here need to realise this, because basically you don't stop to think about what the public sector pay was like 10 years ago. My pay has been cut too, with levies and what else. I'm not being selfish, I'm feeling the pinch too, but I remember when I was laughed at 10 years ago and I still have my job today.

your forgetting to mention

that in that time you got benchmarked up in salary

while no productivity improved

and now that the private sector is down, no one is calling for reverse benchmarking

uncle_sam_ie

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and she should

but theres no job security and no nice pension packages

and more than often no trade unions allowed

And, she has a career that is highly exportable to anywhere in the world. If Ireland wants to pay nurse's peanuts then they will leave to greener pastures and this country will be left with monkeys. I wouldn't want to get sick here if that happens.

P. Breathnach

ei.sdraob wrote: »

... and now that the private sector is down, no one is calling for reverse benchmarking

I don't think that is true, except that using the adjective "reverse" is redundant.

I have suggested here that a new round of benchmarking would be a good idea, and I am far from alone in that.

Arathorn

Average pay for a Guard is over a grand a week? really?

I'm actually shocked at that

Rob67

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i do realize there is warping being done here, and the indo have their own agenda



just a simple question

if the public sector have it so bad as you make out

why not quit a and get a job in the private sector?

I did, left the Army to get work that paid me what I'm worth. Thankfully, I'm doing quite well too!

shapez

ei.sdraob wrote: »

your forgetting to mention

that in that time you got benchmarked up in salary

while no productivity improved

and now that the private sector is down, no one is calling for reverse benchmarking

You right we did. But those who were at the top end of scales got well looked after instead of the people at the lower end of the scale. If I remember correctly at the time I gaining an extra 0.75%!! It was all based what level of the pay scale people were on and as I said those at the top continued to get a nice top up.

It wasn't sweet and wholesome for everyone at the time.

Boo2009

I work in the PS and don't know how they can say pay has gone up. Pay has been cut and staff that are leaving are not being replaced so we're doing their work as well as our own for the less pay.

BroomBurner

Twin-go wrote: »

Work a 40hr week like the rest of us?:p

My work week = 42.5 hours minimum. No OT for any additional time worked.

The stats released from the Indo are always going to be skewed. Also, averages are a bad indication of salaries in the PS as it includes all those at the top on 100K+ who don't represent value for money.

irish_bob

shapez wrote: »

And does it tell you how long it took for a public sector employee to get to that wage?? I'm 10 years working in the public sector and I worked damn hard to get to the level of pay I'm making after 10 years.

When I first got my job 10 years ago in the public sector, I was laughed at by people I studied with in college when they were getting jobs at the time, saying that "Oh, I'm making 25-30k more than what you make!!", "I get a bonus of 5-8k at Xmas!!", "I get a free car, a phone, laptop, etc." It didn't bother me at all, I wanted security in my job. So, after 10 years in the public sector, I'm making what a private sector person was making 10 years ago.

Some of you here need to realise this, because basically you don't stop to think about what the public sector pay was like 10 years ago. My pay has been cut too, with levies and what else. I'm not being selfish, I'm feeling the pinch too, but I remember when I was laughed at 10 years ago and I still have my job today.

always amuses me how like clones to the last man and woman , public sector workers regurgitate the same old banners and slogans , WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS , THE PRIVATE SECTOR CREAMED IT DURING THE BOOM and in your case , THOSE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR LAUGHED AT ME JOINING THE PUBLIC SECTOR

i swear to jaysus , every single last one of them must have attended some form of tuition camp at the begining of this year where they were briefed by messrs begg and o,connor on what buzzwords to use , not an independant thought among them

irish_bob

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

And, she has a career that is highly exportable to anywhere in the world. If Ireland wants to pay nurse's peanuts then they will leave to greener pastures and this country will be left with monkeys. I wouldn't want to get sick here if that happens.

complete hogwash , , name one country where nurses earn more than in ireland , in the uk they earn at least 30% less , i have a cousin in wales who has been a male nurse since 1987 , this year he will earn 33 k sterling , thats only a few grand more than a nurse starts off on here

irish_bob

Arathorn wrote: »

Average pay for a Guard is over a grand a week? really?

I'm actually shocked at that

1200 to be prescise and thats before over time and remember , thier is only one commisioner , the average nurse also earns on average a grand a week , many nurses who are over ten years in the job often earn close to seventy grand a year , i know this for a fact

cyclopath2001

irish_bob wrote: »

for working the night shift at weekends , nurses often take home 400 quid , for one night :eek:

Isn't that the contract rate charged by the private sector?

ParkRunner

irish_bob wrote: »

always amuses me how like clones to the last man and woman , public sector workers regurgitate the same old banners and slogans , WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS , THE PRIVATE SECTOR CREAMED IT DURING THE BOOM and in your case , THOSE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR LAUGHED AT ME JOINING THE PUBLIC SECTOR

i swear to jaysus , every single last one of them must have attended some form of tuition camp at the begining of this year where they were briefed by messrs begg and o,connor on what buzzwords to use , not an independant thought among them

We've had plenty of practice thanks to Eddie Hobbs, Central Bank, Bord Snip, ESRI x 10, Irish Independent, IBEC, Jimmy x 1,000

Absurdum

irish_bob wrote: »

complete hogwash , , name one country where nurses earn more than in ireland

ok

Saudi Arabia

Absurdum

irish_bob wrote: »

i swear to jaysus , every single last one of them must have attended some form of tuition camp at the begining of this year where they were briefed by messrs begg and o,connor on what buzzwords to use , not an independant thought among them

but Begg and O'Connor represent more private sector workers than public sector workers

uncle_sam_ie

irish_bob wrote: »

complete hogwash , , name one country where nurses earn more than in ireland , in the uk they earn at least 30% less , i have a cousin in wales who has been a male nurse since 1987 , this year he will earn 33 k sterling , thats only a few grand more than a nurse starts off on here

Saudi Arabia not only pays more, it's tax free. Canada and Australia are screaming out for nurse's especially one's that are specialized. The pay would be about the same but, the cost of living would be a lot less there.

uncle_sam_ie

mikemac wrote: »

Hey no problem
Can be replaced by dedicated by hard-working and very proficient Filipino nurses who are happy to do the job in Ireland at the rates that the Government set

So feel free to emigrate (not you, the person you're posting about)

Philippino nurse's meet the same high standers as Irish nurses. They're not going to work for peanuts. They'll move on too. Ireland will then either need to close hospitals or lower the bar and let nurses in from third world countries with questionable training.

itsallaboutme!!

Arathorn wrote: »

Average pay for a Guard is over a grand a week? really?

I'm actually shocked at that

I'm shocked at that too!! Id love to meet the Garda who is making that much and ask them how they are getting that much coz im getting nowhere near it!!

irish_bob

EF wrote: »

We've had plenty of practice thanks to Eddie Hobbs, Central Bank, Bord Snip, ESRI x 10, Irish Independent, IBEC, Jimmy x 1,000

your refering to researched fact

i am talking about recycled union indoctrinated propoganda


and i feel its unfair to bring up jimmy seeing that he is presently banned , interesting how the one who repeatedly called him a liar escaped without so much as a warning though

irish_bob

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

Saudi Arabia not only pays more, it's tax free. Canada and Australia are screaming out for nurse's especially one's that are specialized. The pay would be about the same but, the cost of living would be a lot less there.

nurses pay in australia is about half of what it is here , a rank and file police officer in australia also earns half what they do here , pay in canada is higher than in australia but still considerably less than in ireland


very few would want to move to saudi arabia , other than making money , you spend most of your time making sure you dont offend the delicate sensibilties of the religous police , that and avoiding sun stroke

Matthew712

Remember: There's Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics
The truth behind the Statistics: (1) The economic situation has forced many people on high increment levels who were on career break to return, thus displacing many temps on the lower increments. (2) Last year was a 53 week year, and by comparison to the year before (a 52 week year) is a 2% change (increase). (3) A reduction in normal staff can cause overtime, which is more expensive than normal time. (4) Why is health left out? If health was included would the figures not have helped the lie? (5) We have an ageing population -- so increased pension and health costs (predictably 60 years ago), we have massive growth in the youth population which is now feeding into schools (predictably 4 - 12 years ago) -- so more teachers needed --so who lowered the pupil teacher ratio?, the massive increase in unemployment has forced increases in the numbers in social welfare. -- so more staff

irish_bob

itsallaboutme!! wrote: »

I'm shocked at that too!! Id love to meet the Garda who is making that much and ask them how they are getting that much coz im getting nowhere near it!!

how could you have known , its not like our left wing , public sector friendly state broadcaster would ever feel the need to let you know , your only a tax payer afterall

ps , thats a grand a week before over time

uncle_sam_ie

irish_bob wrote: »

nurses pay in australia is about half of what it is here , a rank and file police officer in australia also earns half what they do here , pay in canada is higher than in australia but still considerably less than in ireland


e

Source?

irish_bob

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

Source?

a cousin in australia who is in the police and another who is a nurse , i also have realives in canada though none who are either nurses or police , im not good at dragging up files and the like but if you feel that strongly about my post , drag one up yourself and proove me wrong

cyclopath2001

irish_bob wrote: »

before over time

What's the rate of tax, levies, PRSI and pension levy on the overtime?

uncle_sam_ie

irish_bob wrote: »

very few would want to move to saudi arabia , other than making money , you spend most of your time making sure you dont offend the delicate sensibilties of the religous police , that and avoiding sun stroke

No one moves to Saudia Arabia. They make a lot of money then move on. We know a few nurse's that worked out there for four to five years then bought a house outright in Australia. It sounds like a plan to me if the government goes along with another pay cut.

uncle_sam_ie

irish_bob wrote: »

a cousin in australia who is in the police and another who is a nurse , i also have realives in canada though none who are either nurses or police , im not good at dragging up files and the like but if you feel that strongly about my post , drag one up yourself and proove me wrong

It's about the same as here with the bonus of a lower cost of living. Not to mention you can get an actual summer out there. http://www.payscale.com/research/AU/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Salary
http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Salary

Matthew712

I remember the 80's when the public sector was asked to make scarifices for the good of the country (while it was shown on mature reflection that billions of wealtha was hidden off shore) so that a cake could be made. in the late 90's when the cake materialised (thanks to the sacrifices made and later due to the fact that the wealthy's wealth was found out -- remember tax amnesty 1 and 2 and 3) the public sector was told "Wait! you didn't make the cake, wait for crumbs (benchmarking), there isn't enough cake to go around (remember you have it good in the bad times). But when the bubble bust -- the tune changed -- nothing suprising -- 1st companys folded to evade tax, massive shift by private sector to tax evasion (black hole as it was called in the early 80's) Then the cry for the public sector to make sacrifices to save the country and lay the foundations for a new cake. It was drummed into me while I was underpaid during the Celtic tiger that "I have it good it the bad times" by yuppies who never even experienced the bad times. So I should say "roll on the bad times and long may they last"?

Arathorn

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

What's the rate of tax, levies, PRSI and pension levy on the overtime?

Tax, levies and prsi will be the same as every other worker.

Yes the pension levy is extra and i'm aware that this is seen as a pay cut, but if private sector workers had a chance to pay this for the pension they would get they would jump at the chance.

Matthew712

Private sector have always had the chance of paying at pension, it just a simple fact that because they had a choice, they joined late - so to get the same benefits payings over a shorter time - they must pay more. Public sector culture was to join pension scheme very early, at later they had no choice but to join.
If private sector pensions are bad, is the answer to make public sector pensions bad too, or to make private sector pensions as good as public sector pensions?
Public sector pensions are good because of long contributions (starting from the time the person joined work, not when they realised the tunnel had at end)

Arathorn

Matthew712 wrote: »

Private sector have always had the chance of paying at pension, it just a simple fact that because they had a choice, they joined late - so to get the same benefits payings over a shorter time - they must pay more. Public sector culture was to join pension scheme very early, at later they had no choice but to join.
If private sector pensions are bad, is the answer to make public sector pensions bad too, or to make private sector pensions as good as public sector pensions?
Public sector pensions are good because of long contributions (starting from the time the person joined work, not when they realised the tunnel had at end)

You might want to do some more research, public sector pensions aren't better just because they are paid into longer than private pensions