Halve Dole for Under 24s

http://www.newstalk.ie/news/news-headlines/mary-hanafin-tells-newstalk-cabinet-considering-halving-dole-payments-for-under-24%E2%80%99s-2/

The Social and Family Affairs Minister has confirmed the cabinet’s looking at halving dole payments for everyone under 24 in the budget.

The measure was introduced for the under 20’s in April, and Newstalk has seen a circular from Mary Hanafin’s department proposing extending it further in December – such a move could affect payments for nearly 91,000 people

The cost of Welfare is up for discussion at today’s Cabinet meeting.

Minister Mary Hanafin says they’re trying to encourage people to work hard at finding a job.

amacachi

Disgraceful if they do it. Surely a bloody 5% cut across the board would save more (and I think 5% is on the low side too)? I know plenty of people in their early 20s who've done more honest work than 40 and 50 year olds already but because of their age they're being penalised? It's a total bull****. Just another "**** you" to the young in this country who haven't been perfect up til now.

leninbenjamin

I know plenty of people under 24 who also defraud the system and claim full payments when living at home. It's a bit of a pisser to implement this way, but something is needed.

limericklassy

Most people at that age dont have a house or kids. So i would say its a good idea. I am sure there will be safeguards for people with kids etc.

Sea Sharp

So now we can't even save up to emigrate!!!!

Proper Irish politics, p1ss off the people who are less likely to vote.

amacachi

leninbenjamin wrote: »

I know plenty of people under 24 who also defraud the system and claim full payments when living at home. It's a bit of a pisser to implement this way, but something is needed.

Perfectly possible to live at home and be entitled to full payment. There's as much if not more fraud with older people, target them. Or just target everyone. Totally rubbish excuse for this.

If this affects the BTEA it looks like I'll be out of college.

Long Onion

No problem with it - there are jobs there for those who want them problem is that they are not attractive due to the rates paid by the welfare - give a real incentive to find work. I would be in favour of keeping the benefit higher for those who return to education though.

amacachi

limericklassy wrote: »

Most people at that age dont have a house or kids. So i would say its a good idea. I am sure there will be safeguards for people with kids etc.

Increase (proportionally) the amount given to families with kids then, halving it is just BS.

theTinker

This really grinds my gears.

I understand the huge need to cut costs but halving dole to encourage people to find work when job availability is so low, and demand so high, is shameful.
I know a few people under 24 who are claiming but would very much like to work. Theres very little employment right now and with numbers approaching 500,000 and still growing, I believe this is just the government targeting a weaker section of the population.
Nobody over 24 will protest against this, so it isolates a section of the population and targets them solely. Making any cries against it, barely audible. This pattern could easily be repeated again and again until everyone is hit. I think its nasty and sneaky.

Why 24? Why not under 30's? Do they think people less than 24 years of age are less interested in work after the graduate? What about people under 24 who don't live with mammy and daddy?

I'm 24 and have a mortgage, if i had been made unemployed while 23..this would of crippled me completely.

eoinbn

theTinker wrote: »

I'm 24 and have a mortgage, if i had been made unemployed while 23..this would of crippled me completely.

Repeat after me:

"The dole is not suppose to pay my mortgage".

limericklassy

If these young people live at home, they dont have to pay for all the bills, etc. Say a 23 year old living at home and a 30 year old with two kids on their own. the latter getting 20 euros extra for each kid, then having to run the household on say 250 euros a week.

the current rule for under 20's is that if you are in education or have kids you will get the full dole.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

theTinker

Long Onion wrote: »

there are jobs there for those who want them problem is that they are not attractive due to the rates paid by the welfare

It's true that the rate of pay dictates some peoples decision to work. That however is entirely irrelevant of age.

This is also only applicable for people near min wage too. My GF has an interview with 2 toy stores today hoping to even pick up work for christmas. She said the boss told her that they have 80 applicants for till operator in Smyths. Jobs are there yeah, just happens to be FAR LESS than the number required. Finding working is ridiculously hard these days, penalizing those who are looking is disgraceful

amacachi

limericklassy wrote: »

if you are in education or have kids you will get the full dole.

Huh? No-one in full-time education gets the dole. If they do, send me their names and addresses. :P

limericklassy

amacachi wrote: »

Huh? No-one in full-time education gets the dole. If they do, send me their names and addresses. :P

If you go on the dole at 18 say and are on it for a year, go and do a fas course or college would you not get the full dole. With college you could go on the BTEA. Correct me if i am wrong.

theTinker

eoinbn wrote: »

Repeat after me:

"The dole is not suppose to pay my mortgage".

I never said it was suppose to pay for it?
I pay my own from my own wages as i've been lucky enough to hang onto my job while most of my team were let go.

However plenty of under 24s who have tried to place themselves as independent by renting, or buying, not sponging off family, who have lost thier jobs(which is alot since its often less experienced staff gone first) are going to be really crippled by this. They're already fecked as far as rent/bills etc, now half of their income will vanish.

mega man

I think a simpler solution would be to stop paying all the immigrants social welfare benefits. why the under 24? why not the over 55? wtf?

amacachi

limericklassy wrote: »

If you go on the dole at 18 say and are on it for a year, go and do a fas course or college would you not get the full dole. With college you could go on the BTEA. Correct me if i am wrong.

I'm on the BTEA at the moment as it happens. I wouldn't really call FAS courses full time as usually they're short and it takes the useless ****ers that long to organise one that you're on the dole for 10 months of the year anyway.
If my BTEA is halved I literally won't have enough money to pay my fees and transport up and down. Nevermind food.

smog

why not just go dutch ... the more you have put into the system the more you are entitled out of it.

TelePaul

I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand, it does seem discriminatory - why 24? Why not 23 or 26 or 28, how about 32? Seems like a fairly arbitrary figure to base such a radical change upon. On the other hand, alot of my mates who are on social welfare spend it in the pub or aren't really entitled to it in the first instance. I'm funding their drinking and welfare fraud through my income tax and that really annoys me.

meglome

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I agree with this. That is to say I wish it wasn't so but it is, reality isn't always pretty.

limericklassy

amacachi wrote: »

I'm on the BTEA at the moment as it happens. I wouldn't really call FAS courses full time as usually they're short and it takes the useless ****ers that long to organise one that you're on the dole for 10 months of the year anyway.
If my BTEA is halved I literally won't have enough money to pay my fees and transport up and down. Nevermind food.

They wont cut the BTEA, that would cause too many problems. The fact that nothing was said when they cut it for the under 20's was a test run to see the problems. As it didnt i see any this decision to put it up to 24 does not surprise me.

Theres a bunch a guys opposite me who do nothing but party and play football. This is the group i would like targeted. Plus the SW tourism by the immigrants.

Sea Sharp

I think there's no problem cutting the dole in half but this is just f*cking p1ssing me off.

They're singling out a section of society that is known to not bother voting in elections. That's what's annoying me.

Theres a bunch a guys opposite me who do nothing but party and play football. This is the group i would like targeted. Plus the SW tourism by the immigrants.

There are people who abuse welfare entitlements from all age groups.
If people are going to make claims along the lines of 'that age group' then show me the statistics!!!

limericklassy

GaNjaHaN wrote: »

I think there's no problem cutting the dole in half but this is just f*cking p1ssing me off.

They're singling out a section of society that is known to not bother voting in elections. That's what's annoying me.




There are people who abuse welfare entitlements from all age groups.
If people are going to make claims along the lines of 'that age group' then show me the statistics!!!

Totally agree with you. There are people in all age groups. And as you say they dont vote in elections

Nodin

eoinbn wrote: »

Repeat after me:

"The dole is not suppose to pay my mortgage".

So your implication is that because he lost his job, he should become homeless?

ei.sdraob

Nodin wrote: »

So your implication is that because he lost his job, he should become homeless?

he should hand back his key

and claim rent allowance

once again, the dole is not there to pay a mortgage


owning a house is a luxury not a right

:mad:

Nody

limericklassy wrote: »

Theres a bunch a guys opposite me who do nothing but party and play football. This is the group i would like targeted. Plus the SW tourism by the immigrants.

You mean except the part where they have to have paid in their taxes for two years before they can claim it vs. Irish who get it with out working a day in their life, right?

limericklassy

Nody wrote: »

You mean except the part where they have to have paid in their taxes for two years before they can claim it vs. Irish who get it with out working a day in their life, right?

I will not tar everbody with the same brush. The loafers are everywhere. SW tourism where they just come in to claim the dole. As far as i know they dont have to be working two years here, according to the SW site. It was a while back i read it,

Pedro K

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

While I acknowledge a very valid point you've made.

I'm 20. I've been working and paying taxes since I was 16.

I had been in full time employment on a full time salary up until the end of June this year when I was let go. I am experienced and was always working for more than minimum wage. [edit] I wasn't in full time employment from the time I was 16 though, I finished school. [/edit]

My Dole isn't much at all. (I was over 20 when they cut it for the <20s in the last budget so it is more than 100, but not much more at all). If they half my dole I will be crippled financially.

I also have been actively looking for work since being let go, as I find myself bored silly at home all day and would much rather get work.

Unfortunately there just aint much work out there to get.

This cut won't give me any extra encouragement to find work, I don't need extra encouragement
All this cut will do is make me (and most of the young people, apprentices etc. who've lost their jobs too) feel even more bitter towards the current government.

ei.sdraob

Pedro K wrote: »

While I acknowledge a very valid point you've made.

I'm 20. I've been working and paying taxes since I was 16.

I had been in full time employment on a full time salary up until the end of June this year when I was let go. I am experienced and was always working for more than minimum wage.

My Dole isn't much at all. (I was over 20 when they cut it for the <20s in the last budget so it is more than 100, but not much more at all). If they half my dole I will be crippled financially.

I also have been actively looking for work since being let go, as I find myself bored silly at home all day and would much rather get work.

Unfortunately there just aint much work out there to get.

This cut won't give me any extra encouragement to find work, I don't need extra encouragement
All this cut will do is make me (and most of the young people, apprentices etc. who've lost their jobs too) feel even more bitter towards the current government.

why not avail of the multitude of free/cheap education avenues available? and learn new skills

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dearg lady

ei.sdraob wrote: »

why not avail of the multitude of free/cheap education avenues available? and learn new skills

It can be quite difficult to get a place on a course even, and I can only assume it will get worse as more and more people become unemployed.

optocynic

dearg lady wrote: »

It can be quite difficult to get a place on a course even, and I can only assume it will get worse as more and more people become unemployed.

I'm sorry... but that sounds like an excuse!.. or even a cop-out...

Effort should, and will be, rewarded..

If you want something out of life, you need to earn it.. lots of people out there have recently lost their jobs.. they will fight hard to get one back.. and if they are under 24... they won't really care that the allowance will be cut... cos they ARE searching for new employment...

dearg lady

optocynic wrote: »

I'm sorry... but that sounds like an excuse!.. or even a cop-out...

Effort should, and will be, rewarded..

If you want something out of life, you need to earn it.. lots of people out there have recently lost their jobs.. they will fight hard to get one back.. and if they are under 24... they won't really care that the allowance will be cut... cos they ARE searching for new employment...

Well I can only go on what I've seen, a friend of mine applied for 8 or 10 FAS course before getting accepted on one, there was literally hundreds of people applying for 20 places. Definitely people should take advantage of any retraining oppurtunities, I'm just pointing out that there can be a long wait.

ei.sdraob

optocynic wrote: »

I'm sorry... but that sounds like an excuse!.. or even a cop-out...

Effort should, and will be, rewarded..

If you want something out of life, you need to earn it.. lots of people out there have recently lost their jobs.. they will fight hard to get one back.. and if they are under 24... they won't really care that the allowance will be cut... cos they ARE searching for new employment...

it is a cop out

there are so many empty places in science and engineering courses across this country, hell some places had to even stop certain engineering courses because as recent as 2008/2009 year there are not enough people availing of excellent opportunities

im only talking about sci/eng as thats the area i know about and still have connections in institutes and universities

im sure there are other courses that would be happy to get more people, and you can endup with a decent job and new skills

Pedro K

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I do definitely agree that social welfare needs to be cut. There are far far too many leeches in the system, but at the same time, right now, I'm in the system, and will be finding it hard to get by at all if they do halve my dole.

Nozebleed

i say scrap the mortgage allowance..

ei.sdraob

Nozebleed wrote: »

i say scrap the mortgage allowance..

among many other things

i dont see why some people should be subsidizing others thirst for owning property

dearg lady

ei.sdraob wrote: »

it is a cop out

there are so many empty places in science and engineering courses across this country, hell some places had to even stop certain engineering courses because as recent as 2008/2009 year there are not enough people availing of excellent opportunities

im only talking about sci/eng as thats the area i know about and still have connections in institutes and universities

im sure there are other courses that would be happy to get more people, and you can endup with a decent job and new skills

Ok, fair enough, but there's always going to be some areas with higher demand than other, it ebbs and flows. My point was, things are never that black and white, there are courses people want to do and are left waiting. there'll always be SOME people who'll be lazy feckers and won't take any oppurtunities, happy to twiddle their thumbs and collect dole at the end of the week.

dearg lady

ei.sdraob wrote: »

among many other things

i dont see why some people should be subsidizing others thirst for owning property

So just out of interest, do you think rent allowance shoudl also be scrapped?

ei.sdraob

dearg lady wrote: »

Ok, fair enough, but there's always going to be some areas with higher demand than other, it ebbs and flows. My point was, things are never that black and white, there are courses people want to do and are left waiting. there'll always be SOME people who'll be lazy feckers and won't take any oppurtunities, happy to twiddle their thumbs and collect dole at the end of the week.

thats life

theres no lack of opportunities in Ireland and abroad thanks to education that can be received here, just ask people from most countries out there what they would give for an education system thats free/extremely cheap


i dont see why anyone should be giving a cent to anyone who is

dearg lady wrote: »

"lazy feckers and won't take any oppurtunities, happy to twiddle their thumbs and collect dole at the end of the week."

and neither do i feel sorry for anyone who is to lazy to see and grab the opportunities available, i know i might sound like an arsehole saying this, but it has to be said, the sense of entitlement is just crazy, its this type of selfish attitude that got this country in such a mess

dearg lady

ei.sdraob wrote: »

thats life

theres no lack of opportunities in Ireland and abroad thanks to education that can be received here, just ask people from most countries out there what they would give for an education system thats free/extremely cheap


i dont see why anyone should be giving a cent to anyone who is


and neither do i feel sorry for anyone who is to lazy to see and grab the opportunities available, i know i might sound like an arsehole saying this, but it has to be said, the sense of entitlement is just crazy, its this type of selfish attitude that got this country in such a mess

uh, you've lost me, I can't see how that has anything to do with what I was saying :rolleyes:

optocynic

ei.sdraob wrote: »

thats life

theres no lack of opportunities in Ireland and abroad thanks to education that can be received here, just ask people from most countries out there what they would give for an education system thats free/extremely cheap


i dont see why anyone should be giving a cent to anyone who is


and neither do i feel sorry for anyone who is to lazy to see and grab the opportunities available, i know i might sound like an arsehole saying this, but it has to be said, the sense of entitlement is just crazy, its this type of selfish attitude that got this country in such a mess

People can call you an arsehole... but, this is what I call the ugly truth... Bertie handed out too much to buy votes.. and there is a rotten core in Irish society, where they hate the successful.. and expect them to carry us all... on their hard work and endevour!!!

ei.sdraob

dearg lady wrote: »

uh, you've lost me, I can't see how that has anything to do with what I was saying :rolleyes:

i went off on a tangent dont mine me

it wasnt aimed at yourself @dearg lady

anyways back to work

HereticPrincess

There was me worrying about losing my job due to the recession when I was 19..

After turning 20 I thought, well at least if worse comes to it & I lose my job during the recession I won't be stuck to cover my rent until I find a new job.

So now, if I'm cut from work (hopefully not) I'll barely be able to pay my rent if this goes through

the_dark_side

only the start.... 91000 x 105 = 9555000 x 52 weeks = 496860000

so its still under half a billion. 4.5 billion to go....

It will mean this, pubs will take a big hit. Im a musician and over one third of the people that are in pubs at the weekend are under 24. This catagory of young people will become the new dependants of the country.

Less u-24 year olds on the road... motoring costs etc. Clothes shops will take a big hit, less people travelling abroad on short breaks. Mobile phone companies will also be affected, unbelievable when you consider that less 4-5 years ago, a 20 year old could make 700-800 euro a week if you had a trade and had your wits about you.

wolfpawnat

limericklassy wrote: »

Most people at that age dont have a house or kids. So i would say its a good idea. I am sure there will be safeguards for people with kids etc.

I am 22 and I have a son and am trying to go back to college. I have no way of living at home and I need my social welfare to tied me over until I get a quailification and become a tax payer again!

Nodin

ei.sdraob wrote: »

he should hand back his key

and claim rent allowance

once again, the dole is not there to pay a mortgage


owning a house is a luxury not a right

:mad:

Ooooo...bold and red faces....

What next, if you fall below a certain income you lose the right to vote?

A man buys a house. Through a series of misfortunes, none of which is his fault he loses his job a few years down the line. Why should he not use whatever money he's entitled to to pay off whatever his on-going expenses?

gerire

Any chance we can also hit the scrote bags who have never, never will and have no intention of looking for work, scrounge off the system and just get a girl knocked up to live for half nothing and end up with more in their pocket per week than I have a chance of having;

Get them where it hurts, I'd rather see them halved in their dole takings

hobochris

ei.sdraob wrote: »

it is a cop out

there are so many empty places in science and engineering courses across this country, hell some places had to even stop certain engineering courses because as recent as 2008/2009 year there are not enough people availing of excellent opportunities

im only talking about sci/eng as thats the area i know about and still have connections in institutes and universities

im sure there are other courses that would be happy to get more people, and you can end up with a decent job and new skills

This statement IMO is a cop out.

FYI I am referring to computer sci which is one of the sci area's with the lack of course interest.

I know so many young people who pursued these courses only to qualify go out into the job market recently And find no work for them. The reason being is that many companies either have hire freezes on or do not want grads, they want experienced people, which there is a lack of.

These companies then go complain to government bodies about the lack of IT people while the qualified grads end up signing on.

The government should be encouraging these companies to take on grads and give them the experience that that these companies are looking for.

Nodin wrote: »

Ooooo...bold and red faces....

What next, if you fall below a certain income you lose the right to vote?

A man buys a house. Through a series of misfortunes, none of which is his fault he loses his job a few years down the line. Why should he not use whatever money he's entitled to to pay off whatever his on-going expenses?

Fair enough if that's what he chooses to spend his allowance on, BUT he should not receive any extra benefits over someone who chose not to purchase.

amacachi

Nowhere have I said that the dole shouldn't be cut, I'm in favour of across-the-board cuts.

To the people talking about fraud, ****ING REPORT IT!

Someone mentioned the BTEA won't be affected, but if I sign on next summer it will be at whatever rate the dole is at and when I go back to college that's where it will stay. I'll have to drop out and will owe a tidy sum of money out still. I'm trying to actually do something with my life after a mistake but hey, beats losing votes.