Get Up Stand Up, the ICTU's half baked response to the upcoming PS Paycuts...

Darragh29

Just came accross a reference to a new website called www.getupstandup.ie, after reading this news article...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/national-day-of-protest-planned-against-cuts-431124.html

This is what appears to be the ICTU's response to the upcoming public sector pay cuts, social welfare cuts and likely cuts to public services...

Now I do think we need cuts to the number of PS workers, but I'm not in favour of cutting front line services or vital services. We would appear to have a whole health department of people in the Dept. of Health from the health board days who have no actual job responsibilities, we have only Jasus knows how many quango's and the likes and I think we need to take a chainsaw to these.

But I believe that if something is worth opposing, (or supporting for that matter), then it is worth doing properly, and if the ICTU believed that a national day or protest is going to make the blind bit of difference, then how do they explain the fact that the public sector pension levy was still introduced in the last budget although they had a national day of protest against that levy as well??? So in my opinion, a national day of protets will not achieve anythin in itself and I think this point has been actually proven after the last budget.

Do they not realise that this government is wrecking the country??? The ICTU have made some good points... On their new website, www.getupstandup.ie, they state that they don't see a plan for job creation, they don't see a plan for dealing with people who will be facing repossessions, they don't see a plan for the protection of jobs that already exist.

All very true, but guess what Jack O' Connor & David Begg, it's the same government that you've been smoking cigars and drinking brandy with down at government buildings after your "partnership process" deliberations, that are failing the country by failing to protect jobs that you say now need to be protected, by failing to create jobs that you now say need to be created, by failing to protect vital services that you now say need to be protected, and failing to support people who are facing a house being repossessed!!!

What in the name of all that is holy are these people actually asking us all to protest against now??? Did these p*ss poor policy decisions with regard to the failure to protect jobs and the wider economy while bailing out banks and developers, did these policies just create themselves??? If the government is the problem then please grow yourselves a pair and protest against the government, it follows that you should protest for a general election and given what we know we are dealing with here, a Fianna Fail led government that has no intention of ever calling an election that EVERYONE is now demanding, why are the ICTU not calling people out onto the streets to protest AND ASKING THEM TO STAY THERE UNTIL WE GET A GENERAL ELECTION??????????

This "day of protest" looks more to me like an silly and shady act of protest to appease union members and get them out to let off a bit of steam, than anything that is actually designed to achieve anything, i.e. CHANGE.

If anyone needs to get up and stand up and grow themselves a pair, I'd suggest it is David Begg, Jack O' Connor and a few other beligerant clowns who just want to talk the walk while they avoid walking the walk...

We can have days of protest all we want, if Fianna Fail and this government are still in power, then we are going absolutely nowhere except further down that economic and social well shaft we have been falling down uncontrollably for the last 18 months...

Do these people think that the government are capable and that they just forgot to protect jobs and the other things that ICTU now say we should be protecting???

I just don't get this, maybe someone can explain it to me... If you have an issue with a decision that you consider is a terrible decision, then surely it follows like night must follow day, that you have an issue with the competence of the person or people who made the decision that you disagree with???

If you are going to bother protesting about the decision that you disagree with, what are you at if you are going to campaign against the decision, but at the same time not protest against the continuance in authority of the person or people who made the decision???

irish_bob

Darragh29 wrote: »

Just came accross a reference to a new website called www.getupstandup.ie, after reading this news article...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/national-day-of-protest-planned-against-cuts-431124.html

This is what appears to be the ICTU's response to the upcoming public sector pay cuts, social welfare cuts and likely cuts to public services...

Now I do think we need cuts to the number of PS workers, but I'm not in favour of cutting front line services or vital services. We would appear to have a whole health department of people in the Dept. of Health from the health board days who have no actual job responsibilities, we have only Jasus knows how many quango's and the likes and I think we need to take a chainsaw to these.

But I believe that if something is worth opposing, (or supporting for that matter), then it is worth doing properly, and if the ICTU believed that a national day or protest is going to make the blind bit of difference, then how do they explain the fact that the public sector pension levy was still introduced in the last budget although they had a national day of protest against that levy as well??? So in my opinion, a national day of protets will not achieve anythin in itself and I think this point has been actually proven after the last budget.

Do they not realise that this government is wrecking the country??? The ICTU have made some good points... On their new website, www.getupstandup.ie, they state that they don't see a plan for job creation, they don't see a plan for dealing with people who will be facing repossessions, they don't see a plan for the protection of jobs that already exist.

All very true, but guess what Jack O' Connor & David Begg, it's the same government that you've been smoking cigars and drinking brandy with down at government buildings after your "partnership process" deliberations, that are failing the country by failing to protect jobs that you say now need to be protected, by failing to create jobs that you now say need to be created, by failing to protect vital services that you now say need to be protected, and failing to support people who are facing a house being repossessed!!!

What in the name of all that is holy are these people actually asking us all to protest against now??? Did these p*ss poor policy decisions with regard to the failure to protect jobs and the wider economy while bailing out banks and developers, did these policies just create themselves??? If the government is the problem then please grow yourselves a pair and protest against the government, it follows that you should protest for a general election and given what we know we are dealing with here, a Fianna Fail led government that has no intention of ever calling an election that EVERYONE is now demanding, why are the ICTU not calling people out onto the streets to protest AND ASKING THEM TO STAY THERE UNTIL WE GET A GENERAL ELECTION??????????

This "day of protest" looks more to me like an silly and shady act of protest to appease union members and get them out to let off a bit of steam, than anything that is actually designed to achieve anything, i.e. CHANGE.

If anyone needs to get up and stand up and grow themselves a pair, I'd suggest it is David Begg, Jack O' Connor and a few other beligerant clowns who just want to talk the walk while they avoid walking the walk...

We can have days of protest all we want, if Fianna Fail and this government are still in power, then we are going absolutely nowhere except further down that economic and social well shaft we have been falling down uncontrollably for the last 18 months...

Do these people think that the government are capable and that they just forgot to protect jobs and the other things that ICTU now say we should be protecting???

I just don't get this, maybe someone can explain it to me... If you have an issue with a decision that you consider is a terrible decision, then surely it follows like night must follow day, that you have an issue with the competence of the person or people who made the decision that you disagree with???

If you are going to bother protesting about the decision that you disagree with, what are you at if you are going to campaign against the decision, but at the same time not protest against the continuance in authority of the person or people who made the decision???

cutting wages and cutting services are not one and the same thing , despite what unions would have us believe

Taxipete29

irish_bob wrote: »

cutting wages and cutting services are not one and the same thing , despite what unions would have us believe

The report on the 9 0 clock news has it there will be cuts in PS wages, social welfare and cutting of public services. The figures were roughly 1.3 1.3 and 1.4 million. This is the 4 million they need to save.

Darragh29

irish_bob wrote: »

cutting wages and cutting services are not one and the same thing , despite what unions would have us believe

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The report on the 9 0 clock news has it there will be cuts in PS wages, social welfare and cutting of public services. The figures were roughly 1.3 1.3 and 1.4 million. This is the 4 million they need to save.

I just don't get the logic of dragging people out onto the street without a very good reason. This government don't listen to a day long protest, we all know that by now, so why bother continuing with a strategy that has been a proven failure for the purposes of achieving an aim???

Taxipete29

Darragh29 wrote: »

I just don't get the logic of dragging people out onto the street without a very good reason. This government don't listen to a day long protest, we all know that by now, so why bother continuing with a strategy that has been a proven failure for the purposes of achieving an aim???

Its mostly posturing and appeasing the members as you have suggested.

irish_bob

hopefully someone will organise a counter protest , i for one am willing to travel

anonymous_joe

It's depressing tbh. Selfishness of these actions is just awful.

No-one wants to cut their wages, it's quite obvious they need to be cut merely because there's not enough money in the economy.

Darragh29

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It's depressing tbh. Selfishness of these actions is just awful.

No-one wants to cut their wages, it's quite obvious they need to be cut merely because there's not enough money in the economy.

I do think we have a major problem here... We are cutting people's ability to repay mortgages, public sector workers on 25K-45K, we could be cutting the ability of these people to repay mortgages, many of these people are already in substantial negative equity, surely if we need to cut their income by a big chunk, we need to look at the possibility that we could be opening up a whole new set of issues here for the same people...

I've friends who are gardai, nurses, a paramedic, a teacher, these people are really really struggling at the moment and they are not living extravagant lifestyles in big fancy houses with big fancy cars outside...

I've also got friends who own their own businesses and these guys are the hardest hit of all, with businesses that are trading in impossible circumstances, can't get paid by customers for 3-6 months, despite them having to pay staff every week and other overheads and their houses are at risk of being taken from them because it is collateral for a business overdraft, which puts to bed in my opinion, the nonsense being spoken by the union leadership that there is some big pot of gold in the private sector that is available to bail the country out, that's pure and utter bullsh*t.

But at the same time, I think we need to make sure we don't make an awful situation very substantially worse. If you cut people's ability to spend, then it follows that they will pull back on spending because they will have to, we already have a major problem with people not spending, which is causing huge job losses, so to cut a large number of people's ability to spend again, is simply going to cause more job losses on top of an already pretty catastrophic unemployment problem right now...

Also, we have a huge chunk of private sector workers in the state who fall outside the tax bracket, and pay no income tax whatsoever. What on earth is the point in having a worker in employment within the state who is contributing no tax??? How did we end up in a situation where a large percentage of private sector workers in the state would appear to have full use of state facilities but contribute nothing for the use of them???

The whole thing sounds like a complete and utter disaster to me to be honest...

lmimmfn

ICTU know that they will fail, even their response on the rte news site today was completely half baked for the fact that the reality is something has got to give, we cannot continue spending so much on the public sector/welfare etc. Its either that or cut a knife right through the public sector and lay a lot of people off.

The "what about my hamster" attitute of everyone and their individual circumstances is completely pointless, there was some teacher who texted into Matt Cooper today saying that if she gets a cut she'll not be able to pay her mortgage because they have 2 houses, cmon FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dont see what the fuss is all about, its the usual union crap of creating a load of drama to try and prove to their members that their subscription money is being well spent.

Well wake call to everyone, next year the PS take home pay will be cut again, so will welfare, and so will private sector take home pay ad taxes will most definately increase as its predicted we will recover in 2011.

irish_bob

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It's depressing tbh. Selfishness of these actions is just awful.

No-one wants to cut their wages, it's quite obvious they need to be cut merely because there's not enough money in the economy.

speak for yourself , i want to see thier wages cut , guards , nurses , teachers, consultants , judges , politicans , most civil servants , are all over paid , we are not a richer country than the uk , netherlands , finland etc , thier is no good reason why we should continue to pay our ps workers vastly higher wages than those other countries especially when the source of revenue which made theese wages possible in the 1st place is dried up and isnt coming back

irish_bob

Darragh29 wrote: »

I do think we have a major problem here... We are cutting people's ability to repay mortgages, public sector workers on 25K-45K, we could be cutting the ability of these people to repay mortgages, many of these people are already in substantial negative equity, surely if we need to cut their income by a big chunk, we need to look at the possibility that we could be opening up a whole new set of issues here for the same people...

I've friends who are gardai, nurses, a paramedic, a teacher, these people are really really struggling at the moment and they are not living extravagant lifestyles in big fancy houses with big fancy cars outside...

I've also got friends who own their own businesses and these guys are the hardest hit of all, with businesses that are trading in impossible circumstances, can't get paid by customers for 3-6 months, despite them having to pay staff every week and other overheads and their houses are at risk of being taken from them because it is collateral for a business overdraft, which puts to bed in my opinion, the nonsense being spoken by the union leadership that there is some big pot of gold in the private sector that is available to bail the country out, that's pure and utter bullsh*t.

But at the same time, I think we need to make sure we don't make an awful situation very substantially worse. If you cut people's ability to spend, then it follows that they will pull back on spending because they will have to, we already have a major problem with people not spending, which is causing huge job losses, so to cut a large number of people's ability to spend again, is simply going to cause more job losses on top of an already pretty catastrophic unemployment problem right now...

Also, we have a huge chunk of private sector workers in the state who fall outside the tax bracket, and pay no income tax whatsoever. What on earth is the point in having a worker in employment within the state who is contributing no tax??? How did we end up in a situation where a large percentage of private sector workers in the state would appear to have full use of state facilities but contribute nothing for the use of them???

The whole thing sounds like a complete and utter disaster to me to be honest...

i for one do not believe for a second that any guard in ireland is struggling , i do believe that guards who own second homes might well be struggling , thats a hell of a lot of guards , guards were owners of second homes when god was a gasun

Darragh29

irish_bob wrote: »

i for one do not believe for a second that any guard in ireland is struggling , i do believe that guards who own second homes might well be struggling , thats a hell of a lot of guards , guards were owners of second homes when god was a gasun

I'm just going to pick a salary figure out of my head here, say 45K. Is someone who is on 45K highly paid??? I wouldn't say that they are, someone who possibly has child and maybe a spouse who is unemployed and they themselves are on 45K and have bought ONE house over the last few years, in my opinion has a possible serious income problem...

What I'd like to know is, are those here who want to see public sector salaries cut, believe that a public sector worker on 45K a year should have their salary cut???

To my mind, a 45K salary is not a lot to live on if you are the sole bread winner in the house, I fully agree that there are people in the public sector on mad money and that this needs to be dealt with but 45K to me is not a lot if you have a mortgage and a spouse who is not working...

Am I being realistic when I think that gardai, nurses, teachers and civil servants after maybe 5 years on the job are still on 45K a year???

eoinbn

Darragh29 wrote: »

The whole thing sounds like a complete and utter disaster to me to be honest...

You just figured that out now?

And we don't HAVE a spending problem, we HAD a spending problem. It really does seem that 99.99% of the people haven't copped on to that. We are like a bunch of alco's that are drying out after a 6 year binge. We have the mother of all hangover's and we want to reduce the pain by having a few more drinks to take the edge off!

irish_bob

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'm just going to pick a salary figure out of my head here, say 45K. Is someone who is on 45K highly paid??? I wouldn't say that they are, someone who possibly has child and maybe a spouse who is unemployed and they themselves are on 45K and have bought ONE house over the last few years, in my opinion has a possible serious income problem...

What I'd like to know is, are those here who want to see public sector salaries cut, believe that a public sector worker on 45K a year should have their salary cut???

To my mind, a 45K salary is not a lot to live on if you are the sole bread winner in the house, I fully agree that there are people in the public sector on mad money and that this needs to be dealt with but 45K to me is not a lot if you have a mortgage and a spouse who is not working...

Am I being realistic when I think that gardai, nurses, teachers and civil servants after maybe 5 years on the job are still on 45K a year???

i consider 45 k a very very good wage , especially for someone with such modest abilitys as are required to be a guard , whether you took out a huge mortgage in 2006 should not in anyway dictate whether or not you take a pay cut , the immplications of making such a defense legitimite are impossible to fathom

Darragh29

irish_bob wrote: »

i consider 45 k a very very good wage , especially for someone with such modest abilitys as are required to be a guard , i have a cousin who lives in wales , hes been a NHS nurse since 1986 , he now earns 33 k per year sterling , thats not much more than nurses start off on in ireland

Right, now we are getting somewhere... The garda or nurse on 45K here in this country might have a mortgage of anywhere between 1K (if they are lucky), and 2K a month. I think someone on 45K a year would take home after tax, somewhere in the region of 2,700 a month.

Now say Jimmy the Garda, he takes home 2,700 Euro a month, say after a bit of overtime and bits and pieces, allowances or whatever, he clears 3K a month, take home.

Now if Jimmy has a 1.5K-2K a month mortgage, he has 1K-1.5K a month to live on.

It's all very wall comparing Jimmy the Garda to his counterpart in Wales, his counterpart in Wales didn't have to buy a house in a ridiculously overpriced property market. Before we get into the argument, "nobody made Paddy buy the house!!!", I believe it is inherently human to strive towards owning a place of shelter known as a house, for to start a family at some stage and live in the community in peace. I don't think we should be knocking anyone who bought a house to live in, even if they paid over the odds for it.

If we want to cut paddy the Garda's salary, then we should be going to the bank and cutting his mortgage back down to reflect the actual value in the property.

Sizzler

Its OK to avoid cuts in the public sector because some people are in negative equity and have bills to pay....ah well thats OK then :rolleyes:

Seriously what planet are Begg and O'Connor on if they actually believe their members should be ringfenced from any cuts

Let them all go out on strike, they'll get sick of it soon enough when their unions give them a token amount for braving the elements and the govt dont pay them for the time they missed.

The fact remains cuts have to be made, its the obvious target. The govt cant overlook the sector because of the social impact, these people made choices to go into the public sector, nobody forced them down that road did they?

This could be the one chance Cowan and Lenihan have to restore a shred of credibility to their leadership as long as they don't bottle it and succomb to Begg and co when the heat is turned up.

Begg and O'Connor keep banging on about the impact of cuts to people on 30k salaries in the public sector, whilst I dont dispute there is people on that level of salary in the public sector I would imagine its a small % and an easy tranche of people to hold up as an example when trying to defend cuts.

eoinbn

Darragh29 wrote: »

Right, now we are getting somewhere... The garda or nurse on 45K here in this country might have a mortgage of anywhere between 1K (if they are lucky), and 2K a month. I think someone on 45K a year would take home after tax, somewhere in the region of 2,700 a month.

Now say Jimmy the Garda, he takes home 2,700 Euro a month, say after a bit of overtime and bits and pieces, allowances or whatever, he clears 3K a month, take home.

Now if Jimmy has a 1.5K-2K a month mortgage, he has 1K-1.5K a month to live on.

It's all very wall comparing Jimmy the Garda to his counterpart in Wales, his counterpart in Wales didn't have to buy a house in a ridiculously overpriced property market. Before we get into the argument, "nobody made Paddy buy the house!!!", I believe it is inherently human to strive towards owning a place of shelter known as a house, for to start a family at some stage and live in the community in peace. I don't think we should be knocking anyone who bought a house to live in, even if they paid over the odds for it.

If we want to cut paddy the Garda's salary, then we should be going to the bank and cutting his mortgage back down to reflect the actual value in the property.

Surely you are just taking the mickey? Some random braindead cop bought a house for over €400,000 and now the state should pay off the loan? Once interest rates start to rise, and the fix-rates expire, his/her repayments will go from €2000 to €3000 per month. Given the current tax rates that garda will need another €2k to cover the cost- I guess a ~€20k per annum payrise will be called for.

T runner

Sizzler wrote: »

Its OK to avoid cuts in the public sector because some people are in negative equity and have bills to pay....ah well thats OK then :rolleyes:

Seriously what planet are Begg and O'Connor on if they actually believe their members should be ringfenced from any cuts

Let them all go out on strike, they'll get sick of it soon enough when their unions give them a token amount for braving the elements and the govt dont pay them for the time they missed.

The fact remains cuts have to be made, its the obvious target. The govt cant overlook the sector because of the social impact, these people made choices to go into the public sector, nobody forced them down that road did they?

This could be the one chance Cowan and Lenihan have to restore a shred of credibility to their leadership as long as they don't bottle it and succomb to Begg and co when the heat is turned up.

Begg and O'Connor keep banging on about the impact of cuts to people on 30k salaries in the public sector, whilst I dont dispute there is people on that level of salary in the public sector I would imagine its a small % and an easy tranche of people to hold up as an example when trying to defend cuts.

The cuts should be on a sliding scale. The majority in the public service are on the lower monies. If this was shown to be taken into account by the government with a lower % cut for these workers and a sliding higher % up until the best paid you would have greater chances of getting these cuts through with less pressure.

People realise that cuts are needed even if in principle they are unfair.
The government must make them as fair as possible to get them through.

Some people have mentioned that they wouldnt like to see cuts to the services. THis is already happening. Anyone holding a temporary position even in a full time post is not being replaced. These temporary posts are almost exclusively on the front line so there are holes all over the place.

I work in a third level college and we are down 20 % of staff as well as an increase of 20% in student numbers to make up our deficit.

Meanwhile the Capital budget has not been cut or transferred to the front lines to ensure this bleeding of essential jobs continues.

This is happening across the board. So for the regular posters with jobs on here who continually slam the public service workers for being lazy: remember, theyre probably working a lot harder than you are.

diverdriver

Just got their stupid leaflet in the door, complete with stupid stickers. It went straight into the bin along with yesterday's leaflet from IMPACT. Both seem to have plenty for money printing leaflets.

But I'm worried with this day of action or protest or whatever it's supposed to be. It seems to me to be a very dangerous thing and could lead to serious trouble in the streets. Comments have already been made by European politicians and others that it's surprising the Irish haven't been rioting on the streets by now. Begg even said it yesterday.

It seems to me that there is an agenda here to create the right conditions for riots. I always suspect the motives of union leaders. They aren't exactly noted for the right wing viewpoint or their commonsense. It's glaringly evident that cuts are needed. Yet all they can offer is a rejection of any cuts for their members, knowing full well that unless it happens this country goes bankrupt and soon.

But then maybe that's what the want. The collapse of the current, admittedly corrupt and failed regime and a it's replacement with their version of a socialist paradise.

If you have any sense stay off the streets on the day of the protest. There will be an attempt to stir trouble.

herya

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'm just going to pick a salary figure out of my head here, say 45K. Is someone who is on 45K highly paid??? I wouldn't say that they are, someone who possibly has child and maybe a spouse who is unemployed and they themselves are on 45K and have bought ONE house over the last few years, in my opinion has a possible serious income problem...

This is all totally irrelevant. You can't just pick a number and say it shouldn't be cut because it's not a lavish salary and their expenses won't be covered. Try telling this to all the 45k people in the public sector who got the boot or had to accept their paycuts. Surely their 45k is the same 45k, and they don't have the luxury of a secure job.

ednwireland

anyone fancy a rant you can pick david beggs name from the contact us form on
http://www.getupstandup.ie/contact/

made my feelings known (aaaaah feel better now , calm)

lmimmfn

diverdriver wrote: »

Just got their stupid leaflet in the door, complete with stupid stickers. It went straight into the bin along with yesterday's leaflet from IMPACT. Both seem to have plenty for money printing leaflets.

But I'm worried with this day of action or protest or whatever it's supposed to be. It seems to me to be a very dangerous thing and could lead to serious trouble in the streets. Comments have already been made by European politicians and others that it's surprising the Irish haven't been rioting on the streets by now. Begg even said it yesterday.

It seems to me that there is an agenda here to create the right conditions for riots. I always suspect the motives of union leaders. They aren't exactly noted for the right wing viewpoint or their commonsense. It's glaringly evident that cuts are needed. Yet all they can offer is a rejection of any cuts for their members, knowing full well that unless it happens this country goes bankrupt and soon.

But then maybe that's what the want. The collapse of the current, admittedly corrupt and failed regime and a it's replacement with their version of a socialist paradise.

If you have any sense stay off the streets on the day of the protest. There will be an attempt to stir trouble.

I guess if there will be public sector riots us in the private sector will have to join in on the other side lol

Darragh29

eoinbn wrote: »

Surely you are just taking the mickey? Some random braindead cop bought a house for over €400,000 and now the state should pay off the loan? Once interest rates start to rise, and the fix-rates expire, his/her repayments will go from €2000 to €3000 per month. Given the current tax rates that garda will need another €2k to cover the cost- I guess a ~€20k per annum payrise will be called for.

Hang on, 400K was the average cost of a family home in this country until very recently. People aspire to things and one thing at the very bottom level of the pyramid of human needs is shelter. If someone decided to buy a house to live in and it was over priced, what should they have done, stayed in their parents for another ten years???

There are many many people out there who just bought to put a roof over their heads, they bought somewhere with a modest front and back garden to maybe raise a family in and now they are being treated like they caused the whole problem and they have to suffer pay cuts from what is not that much above the average industrial wage???

Bollox to that I say, I don't want the cop who I might need to call or the nurse who might be looking after my child, to be completely run into the ground, underpaid and living from hand to mouth.

If you want to cut the income of these people, then you need to look at their liabilities before doing so. This cutting the salaries of working people who are not highly paid is a race to the bottom, it is a knee jerk reaction to a very complex problem and it is just going to cause more job losses and a deeper depression than we already have.

The facts are that we have people in this country with high mortgages, they were not "investors" or speculators", they bought a house to put a roof over their head for themselves and their family. Those mortgages have to be repaid and this government is completely and entirely out of touch with the fact that people earning 40-50K a year are struggling to stay on top of their mortgages.

I couldn't be more convinced that this government haven't a clue what they are doing, it's gotten to the stage where it is like 3 blind people trying to drive a car at this stage...

I don't sign up to the smugness of some people lately who are still living with their mammies in their 30's saying, "Oh I knew it was all going to fall apart, I didn't get a mortgage, I didn't get caught up in all of that, I don't feel at all sorry now for anyone with a high mortgage"... Yeah you're almost in your 40's and still single and living with your parents, get over yourself...

herya

Darragh29 wrote: »

If you want to cut the income of these people, then you need to look at their liabilities before doing so. This cutting the salaries of working people who are not highly paid is a race to the bottom, it is a knee jerk reaction to a very complex problem and it is just going to cause more job losses and a deeper depression than we already have

This is all very high an noble but there's just one small problem. There is no dosh.

eoinbn

Darragh29, you really need to pull your head out of the sand.

If someone decided to buy a house to live in and it was over priced, what should they have done, stayed in their parents for another ten years???

There is a stage between living at home and buying a house- it's called renting. 100's of millions of people all around the world do it. Dead money- yes but if it's all you can afford then it's all you can afford.

If you want to cut the income of these people, then you need to look at their liabilities before doing so. This cutting the salaries of working people who are not highly paid is a race to the bottom, it is a knee jerk reaction to a very complex problem and it is just going to cause more job losses and a deeper depression than we already have.

Can we do the same for the quarter of a million people that have gone from ~€40k to €10k(aka the dole)? Should companies only be allowed to cut wages/jobs if ALL their staff can afford it?

Those mortgages have to be repaid and this government is completely and entirely out of touch with the fact that people earning 40-50K a year are struggling to stay on top of their mortgages.

And you seem to no nothing about balancing books. Income €31b, Expenditure €54b+(hard to keep up). At least 1/2 that gap has to be closed by cuts/taxs the rest by growth in the economy.

We are in the worst recession in the country's history and you seem to think that it's possible to insulate huge parts of society from the impact of it- your in dream land.

Darragh29

herya wrote: »

This is all very high an noble but there's just one small problem. There is no dosh.

There just might be enough dosh if it wasn't getting p*ssed all over the place as if it was going out of fashion. Look at the amount of pure and utter waste we are seeing!!!

At the end of the day we need vital public services and I argue that those providing them should be renumerated in a manner that is consistent with a decent standard of living.

As for yahoo's/consultants wandering around government buildings and government departments talking sh*te and organising meetings about spin opportunities, and such rubbish, someone needs to get a van and round these people up and drop them all off at the nearest hatch 45.

There must be HUGE waste going on here, nearly as many people working in the Dept. of Agriculture as there are farmers in the state, it's 2009, why are they not all engaging with the government online???

A whole load of people working for a health board system that ceased to exist years ago???

Darragh29

eoinbn wrote: »

We are in the worst recession in the country's history and you seem to think that it's possible to insulate huge parts of society from the impact of it- your in dream land.

I think we need to take a look at what direction we want to go in here... Do we want a load of employees in Ireland (public and private), in a house repossession situation this time next year or living in poverty??? Because if you start cutting the pay of those at the bottom, then this is all that is going to be achieved.

I'm 200% behind taking more off those that can afford to pay, either in the public private sector, I see no need for any distinction now between private and public sector workers. Bump the higher income tax rate up by 2.5% on all income over 100K and I imagine that might come up with a good deal of the money that we need.

I'm getting sick of the way people in this country have a natural urge to pull in the opposite direction all the time, whether it be Lisbon or this latest thing of kicking the public sector workers.

The only thing that should matter now is how much more you can afford to contribute... Whether you work in the public or private sector is utterly irrelevant now I think in terms of tax hikes or cuts in salary. Yes in the public sector, the number of people employed needs to be taken on, but as for cutting the salaries by 5-10% of people on 35K and the likes, we're on a road to a hiding with that one...

herya

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yes in the public sector, the number of people employed needs to be taken on, but as for cutting the salaries by 5-10% of people on 35K and the likes, we're on a road to a hiding with that one...

So you don't mind if people are let go - what about the repossessions you're so afraid of then? - but you do mind 5-10% cuts very much. I don't follow your logic, surely there will be repossessions guaranteed if you let them go.

Lizzykins

I couldn't agree more with your last couple of posts Darragh.

Eileens

For God's sake cop on - the only reason the government, media and those rich right wing economists want to cut public sector wages is so that they can let employers in the private sector then cut wages there. If something happens to PS wages, every company in the country will cut wages. The minimum wage will be gone. Hugely profitable companies will cut private sector wages to to bone to make even more profit for themselves including the big multi nationals. I am a private sector worker, not a union member, and even I have enough brains to cop this one on. It seems to me that the ICTU are the only civil society organisation that is strong enough to make a case for ordinary decent working people. I certainly could not do it on my own. There is a strategic campaign being run by all these right wingers as it is more than an coinsidence that they are all coming out with the same dribble about public sector pay cuts. People who think differently are either thick, wealthy or gullible in that they read what they believe in the papers. The public service did not cause this crisis - the Government, and the greedy bankers and developers caused it - why are these people not being asked to pay more taxes and go somewhat to making up for what they did to the country?

Do you think any of the Government Ministers are worried about the likes of me? No they are not - they are far too concerned keeping big business happy as they depend on them.

hobochris

Eileens wrote: »

For God's sake cop on - the only reason the government, media and those rich right wing economists want to cut public sector wages is so that they can let employers in the private sector then cut wages there. If something happens to PS wages, every company in the country will cut wages. The minimum wage will be gone. Hugely profitable companies will cut private sector wages to to bone to make even more profit for themselves including the big multi nationals. I am a private sector worker, not a union member, and even I have enough brains to cop this one on. It seems to me that the ICTU are the only civil society organisation that is strong enough to make a case for ordinary decent working people. I certainly could not do it on my own. There is a strategic campaign being run by all these right wingers as it is more than an coinsidence that they are all coming out with the same dribble about public sector pay cuts. People who think differently are either thick, wealthy or gullible in that they read what they believe in the papers. The public service did not cause this crisis - the Government, and the greedy bankers and developers caused it - why are these people not being asked to pay more taxes and go somewhat to making up for what they did to the country?

Do you think any of the Government Ministers are worried about the likes of me? No they are not - they are far too concerned keeping big business happy as they depend on them.

Big business means more jobs.

A reduction in wages is not a bad thing if you look at the broader picture.

As far as the cuts go, here is a rough idea of how the economics's of the situation work:

1.public sector pay cuts

2.private sector pay cuts

3.a. cost of living forced down(as people don't have cash to pay boom prices for goods and services so companies adjust prices)

3.b. Foreign companies attracted to Ireland once again as wages are low & the work force is educated.Which means jobs get created.

its basic economics(well a simplified view anyway).

The problem with the public sector is they are narrow sighted and cant see the broader picture.

Unfortunately, some people may not be able to pay for homes bought at boom prices and may find themselves renting for a while after losing said homes they couldn't pay for but that's the way the capitalist cookie crumbles.

Diarmuid

Eileens wrote: »

For God's sake cop on - the only reason the government, media and those rich right wing economists want to cut public sector wages is so that they can let employers in the private sector then cut wages there.

The government is racking up huge deficits, companies are going bust, and tens of thousands of employees are being let go as part of a huge conspiracy to drive down wages. Right. :rolleyes:

herya

Eileens wrote: »

For God's sake cop on - the only reason the government, media and those rich right wing economists want to cut public sector wages is so that they can let employers in the private sector then cut wages there.

This has already happened and will continue to happen whether PS wages are slashed or not. But if they stay at such an elevated level they'll only contribute to bankrupting the country.

diverdriver

Eileens that's fantasy that keeps being trotted out by ICTU and others. Tax the rich. Well by all means except there are not enough rich people to raise the €4 billion.

The simple reality is that there isn't enough tax been generated to run the public service. So €400 million a week has to be borrowed just to pay the bills. Do you really think there are enough rich people to raise that much tax a week from them?

And it's only going to get worse as more and more private sector people lose their jobs and go on the dole.

At this point it really doesn't matter who caused it. Who cares who steered the ship into the iceberg. We either stop it sinking by everyone baling it out or most of us go down with the ship because there aren't enough lifeboats.

While you're slagging off big business, remember this; your job depends on it. All taxes come from the private sector, ALL of it.

As for cutting private sector pay, there is little scope for it. It was always lower than everyone thought. One of the real myths of the boom years was that private sector were on huge money. It was never true for the ordinary workers who worked long hours for low pay. I had ordinary jobs in mulitnationals for years. The most money I ever earned in a year was about €26K and that was for a 24/7 shift job, days and nights. The shift allowance brought it up. I received low payrises of the order of 2% because apparently I was at the top of my scale. My last job started at €360 a week in 2005. By the time I left I was on an incredible €450 a week. That for you info is €23400 pa. They were considered a good employer. Most employees had second jobs to make ends meet. This year I'll be lucky to take home €20k before tax because I'm self employed now. So when I hear unions and PS workers bleating about their low pay it makes my blood boil.

They don't know the meaning of the word.

This country is in deep, deep trouble but apparently many people still think they can sail along as if nothing needs to change. Two years from now, we'll be lucky if we aren't depending on aid from our EU partners to stop people starving in the streets.

eoinbn

Darragh, can you tell me what you think happens in a recession? Some numbers go up, some numbers go down but nothing bad happens and we all come out of it smelling of roses?

For God's sake cop on - the only reason the government, media and those rich right wing economists want to cut public sector wages is so that they can let employers in the private sector then cut wages there.

Employers in the private sector can do whatever they feel like, and right now they feel like moving out of Ireland because it's too expensive to do business here. They don't chase, or follow, public sector wages.

Darragh29

herya wrote: »

So you don't mind if people are let go - what about the repossessions you're so afraid of then? - but you do mind 5-10% cuts very much. I don't follow your logic, surely there will be repossessions guaranteed if you let them go.

Let me explain this because I can see the point you are making. At the end of the day, we need teachers, we need nurses, we need emergency service workers, we need vital public services. I believe people engaged by the state in the provision of those services should be renumerated in a way that is consistent with the provision of a decent standard of living. These people have decided to make a career out of serving the rest of us and I think they should be properly renumerated in line with their qualifications and experience, which allow them to serve us better.

Now what I'm looking at here in the public sector, I see a lot of waste, I see a lot of duplication of work, I see a lack of deployment of information technology that can cut down on admin work, I see a lack of flexibility...

Any jobs that are not involved in providing a service to the public, need to be taken out of the system. Then we need to find private sector jobs for these people. There is no point in cutting everyone's salary in the public sector and leaving the public sector unreformed and inefficient.

The only people working in the public sector should be those that are necessary to provide the necessary services to the public. Spin doctors, media consultants, career opportunists, unnecessary paper pushers, political advisors, politicians secretaries, should be rounded up in a van and dropped off at the nearest social welfare office.

I accept these people will end up out of work and maybe facing repossesion, but at the end of the day they are not necessary for the provision of the common good so we need to revisit the wrong decision that was made to place these people into public sector positions of employment.

If our government was in any way capable, this culling of the public sector would not be an issue because we could create jobs in the private sector to offset the necessary adjustment. Unfortunately this government has managed to stand over the loss of 500,000 jobs in the last 2 years.

Cutting the salaries of firemen, nurses, etc, and leaving a mountain of quangos and state bodies that do only Jasus know's what, is like slashing your own wrists...

Darragh29

eoinbn wrote: »

Darragh, can you tell me what you think happens in a recession? Some numbers go up, some numbers go down but nothing bad happens and we all come out of it smelling of roses?

First of all, we are now in a depression in this country, it's no longer a recession in my eyes. What should happen is that jobs get created (I'm one of the people creating them at the moment), due to new and innovative ideas that emerge during harsher times, businesses can use the occasion to improve.

What happens here is that our first instinct is to sit down and p*ss ourselves because the foreign smart money that we needed to create jobs is departing. We can't create jobs because we have it in our heads that it's someone else's job to come here and create the jobs for us. That's our problem here, we are afraid to put the graft in that is necessary to create jobs for ourselves...

I used to work for a US multinational in this country and every morning, a private bus put on for free by the company used to come at my door and pick me up for work and every evening the same bus used to collect me at work and drive me back to my door. I mean short of opening my front door and coming up the stairs to wake me up with a fry and a cup of tea, they completely mollycoddled me and everyone else who got on that bus.

It's no wonder we are down 500K jobs now when this is what we have gotten used to... There are loads of opportunities out there if you are prepared to work hard to create them, Irish people just refuse to see them...

Think about this for a minute, we are 2 years into this, has anyone seen any atttempt whatsoever to help people create jobs in this country???

glaston

We seriously need to change the early retirement entitlement of some of the PS jobs.

A Garda I know retired the other day, he was 50.
Fookin 50!
I couldnt believe it. He is completely fit and healthy and capable of doing his job for several years more.

Rest of us will to be paying his guaranteed pension for 30 years or so.

eoinbn

Darragh29 wrote: »

First of all, we are now in a depression in this country, it's no longer a recession in my eyes. What should happen is that jobs get created (I'm one of the people creating them at the moment), due to new and innovative ideas that emerge during harsher times, businesses can use the occasion to improve.

What happens here is that our first instinct is to sit down and p*ss ourselves because the foreign smart money that we needed to create jobs is departing. We can't create jobs because we have it in our heads that it's someone else's job to come here and create the jobs for us. That's our problem here, we are afraid to put the graft in that is necessary to create jobs for ourselves...

I used to work for a US multinational in this country and every morning, a private bus put on for free by the company used to come at my door and pick me up for work and every evening the same bus used to collect me at work and drive me back to my door. I mean short of opening my front door and coming up the stairs to wake me up with a fry and a cup of tea, they completely mollycoddled me and everyone else who got on that bus.

It's no wonder we are down 500K jobs now when this is what we have gotten used to... There are loads of opportunities out there if you are prepared to work hard to create them, Irish people just refuse to see them...

Think about this for a minute, we are 2 years into this, has anyone seen any atttempt whatsoever to help people create jobs in this country???

You are probably right, it's a depression.
You didn't really answer my question. A recession/depression is always a correction of mistakes that have ALREADY happened, not necessarily because of mistakes that are currently been made. It's not just some random event that can be countered by magically creating jobs. As this worldwide recession has been caused by people getting into too much debt people need to pay back some of that debt before they get back spending which leads to more demand which leads to jobs.

givyjoe81

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'm just going to pick a salary figure out of my head here, say 45K. Is someone who is on 45K highly paid??? I wouldn't say that they are, someone who possibly has child and maybe a spouse who is unemployed and they themselves are on 45K and have bought ONE house over the last few years, in my opinion has a possible serious income problem...

What I'd like to know is, are those here who want to see public sector salaries cut, believe that a public sector worker on 45K a year should have their salary cut???

To my mind, a 45K salary is not a lot to live on if you are the sole bread winner in the house, I fully agree that there are people in the public sector on mad money and that this needs to be dealt with but 45K to me is not a lot if you have a mortgage and a spouse who is not working...

Am I being realistic when I think that gardai, nurses, teachers and civil servants after maybe 5 years on the job are still on 45K a year???

Your having en effin laugh aren't you?! 45k not overpaid?! Thats an excellent salary, and i would bite your hand off to take that right now. My last position was 34k before i went back to college and i though that was an excellent salary too.

Sorry but anyone who cant live comfortably on that is living way beyond their means, evidenced by the fact that they will now be 'struggling' if they are slapped with a 7-10% paycut, ever heard of the saying 'planning for a rainy day'? Surely such 'low paid' sole bread winners should have accounting, for a long time now, that their other half could lose their job. No one forced them to buy an majorly overinflated priced house either.

Lets also be clear, thats a salary, never mind OT. Friend from school earning 60k after salary and OT, thats a crazy amount of money to be paying a PS worker on the job less than 3 years (fireman incidentally). I also believe they do a good job mind you and see some terrible things, which millions of euro isnt enough to compensate for. However, we have to pay them a reasonable wage, benchmarked against countries of similar size and wealth, and that kind of money is neither realistic or sustainable.

irish_bob

Darragh29 wrote: »

Right, now we are getting somewhere... The garda or nurse on 45K here in this country might have a mortgage of anywhere between 1K (if they are lucky), and 2K a month. I think someone on 45K a year would take home after tax, somewhere in the region of 2,700 a month.

Now say Jimmy the Garda, he takes home 2,700 Euro a month, say after a bit of overtime and bits and pieces, allowances or whatever, he clears 3K a month, take home.

Now if Jimmy has a 1.5K-2K a month mortgage, he has 1K-1.5K a month to live on.

It's all very wall comparing Jimmy the Garda to his counterpart in Wales, his counterpart in Wales didn't have to buy a house in a ridiculously overpriced property market. Before we get into the argument, "nobody made Paddy buy the house!!!", I believe it is inherently human to strive towards owning a place of shelter known as a house, for to start a family at some stage and live in the community in peace. I don't think we should be knocking anyone who bought a house to live in, even if they paid over the odds for it.

If we want to cut paddy the Garda's salary, then we should be going to the bank and cutting his mortgage back down to reflect the actual value in the property.

do you know of any private sector worker who managed to hold on to thier job or even fend off a pay cut based on thier ability to plead inability to meet mortgage repayments

irish_bob

diverdriver wrote: »

Just got their stupid leaflet in the door, complete with stupid stickers. It went straight into the bin along with yesterday's leaflet from IMPACT. Both seem to have plenty for money printing leaflets.

But I'm worried with this day of action or protest or whatever it's supposed to be. It seems to me to be a very dangerous thing and could lead to serious trouble in the streets. Comments have already been made by European politicians and others that it's surprising the Irish haven't been rioting on the streets by now. Begg even said it yesterday.

It seems to me that there is an agenda here to create the right conditions for riots. I always suspect the motives of union leaders. They aren't exactly noted for the right wing viewpoint or their commonsense. It's glaringly evident that cuts are needed. Yet all they can offer is a rejection of any cuts for their members, knowing full well that unless it happens this country goes bankrupt and soon.

But then maybe that's what the want. The collapse of the current, admittedly corrupt and failed regime and a it's replacement with their version of a socialist paradise.

If you have any sense stay off the streets on the day of the protest. There will be an attempt to stir trouble.

the unions led by jack o connor are licking thier lips at the prospect of strikes , for the likes of o,connor , this is about much more than reduced garda or nurses wages , the man is involved in a much broader idealogical war , he has suffered through twenty years of relative prosperity globally since the fall of the berlin wall and he is not going to miss his chance

irish_bob

Darragh29 wrote: »

Hang on, 400K was the average cost of a family home in this country until very recently. People aspire to things and one thing at the very bottom level of the pyramid of human needs is shelter. If someone decided to buy a house to live in and it was over priced, what should they have done, stayed in their parents for another ten years???

There are many many people out there who just bought to put a roof over their heads, they bought somewhere with a modest front and back garden to maybe raise a family in and now they are being treated like they caused the whole problem and they have to suffer pay cuts from what is not that much above the average industrial wage???

Bollox to that I say, I don't want the cop who I might need to call or the nurse who might be looking after my child, to be completely run into the ground, underpaid and living from hand to mouth.

If you want to cut the income of these people, then you need to look at their liabilities before doing so. This cutting the salaries of working people who are not highly paid is a race to the bottom, it is a knee jerk reaction to a very complex problem and it is just going to cause more job losses and a deeper depression than we already have.

The facts are that we have people in this country with high mortgages, they were not "investors" or speculators", they bought a house to put a roof over their head for themselves and their family. Those mortgages have to be repaid and this government is completely and entirely out of touch with the fact that people earning 40-50K a year are struggling to stay on top of their mortgages.

I couldn't be more convinced that this government haven't a clue what they are doing, it's gotten to the stage where it is like 3 blind people trying to drive a car at this stage...

I don't sign up to the smugness of some people lately who are still living with their mammies in their 30's saying, "Oh I knew it was all going to fall apart, I didn't get a mortgage, I didn't get caught up in all of that, I don't feel at all sorry now for anyone with a high mortgage"... Yeah you're almost in your 40's and still single and living with your parents, get over yourself...

the average cost of a home peaked at 345 k nationally some time around november 2006 , the cost in dublin was about 90k higher

lmimmfn

Darragh29 wrote: »

Hang on, 400K was the average cost of a family home in this country until very recently. People aspire to things and one thing at the very bottom level of the pyramid of human needs is shelter. If someone decided to buy a house to live in and it was over priced, what should they have done, stayed in their parents for another ten years???

There are many many people out there who just bought to put a roof over their heads, they bought somewhere with a modest front and back garden to maybe raise a family in and now they are being treated like they caused the whole problem and they have to suffer pay cuts from what is not that much above the average industrial wage???

Bollox to that I say, I don't want the cop who I might need to call or the nurse who might be looking after my child, to be completely run into the ground, underpaid and living from hand to mouth.

If you want to cut the income of these people, then you need to look at their liabilities before doing so. This cutting the salaries of working people who are not highly paid is a race to the bottom, it is a knee jerk reaction to a very complex problem and it is just going to cause more job losses and a deeper depression than we already have.

The facts are that we have people in this country with high mortgages, they were not "investors" or speculators", they bought a house to put a roof over their head for themselves and their family. Those mortgages have to be repaid and this government is completely and entirely out of touch with the fact that people earning 40-50K a year are struggling to stay on top of their mortgages.

I couldn't be more convinced that this government haven't a clue what they are doing, it's gotten to the stage where it is like 3 blind people trying to drive a car at this stage...

I don't sign up to the smugness of some people lately who are still living with their mammies in their 30's saying, "Oh I knew it was all going to fall apart, I didn't get a mortgage, I didn't get caught up in all of that, I don't feel at all sorry now for anyone with a high mortgage"... Yeah you're almost in your 40's and still single and living with your parents, get over yourself...

never heard of renting then? :rolleyes:

Anyone who spent stupid money on a house should live with it, the whole thing was bloody nuts in 2002 never mind 2006/7 when it reached the peak.

And on the point of the frontline staff who we all owe our lives to well thats all fine and dandy throwing all those guys a wad of cash to make sure they do their job( last i heard thats what the private sector was about and doing your job is what you get paid for ), but in a few years time when most of us in the private sector lose our jobs where will we get the wads of cash then.

People need a bloody reality check.

starbelgrade

I got a letter about this through my door this morning, along with some stickers that the ICTU encouraged me to wear or display. I wonder how many households were targeted by this campaign & how much it cost. It also never mentioned once, anything about the public sector, but seemed to go under the guise of a general protest against the government. I found it a wee bit odd.

Not to mention the nicking of Bob Marley lyrics.

Not to mention that the letter was signed by David Begg, who earns an annual salary of €136,000. A delayed reponse can only be expected when you have the luxury of a financial cushion.

"You can fool some people sometimes,
But you cant fool all the people all the time."

Bob Marley

starbelgrade

lmimmfn wrote: »

never heard of renting then? :rolleyes:

Renting? Yep - heard of it. As far as I know, it means paying someone else's 2nd/ 3rd/ 4th (etc) mortgage off.

lmimmfn

starbelgrade wrote: »

Renting? Yep - heard of it. As far as I know, it means paying someone else's 2nd/ 3rd/ 4th (etc) mortgage off.

So rather than being happy and having a nice cosy/safe place to stay whereby you dont have to pay upkeep and have easy mobility you begrudge someone possibly using your rent money to pay for the property?

Those same people are up to their eyeballs in debt now, justice eh?

Im more than happy having been renting property for the past 16 years, i would have needed my head examined if i was going to take a mortgage on the extortionate prices of the past 10 years.

bobbyjoe

When Cowen etc start earning less than Obama come back to me about sharing the pain. In the meantime fight to keep what you have.

starbelgrade

lmimmfn wrote: »

So rather than being happy and having a nice cosy/safe place to stay whereby you dont have to pay upkeep and have easy mobility you begrudge someone possibly using your rent money to pay for the property?

Those same people are up to their eyeballs in debt now, justice eh?

Im more than happy having been renting property for the past 16 years, i would have needed my head examined if i was going to take a mortgage on the extortionate prices of the past 10 years.

I don't begrudge anyone. It's not my style.

I'm glad that you're happy out.. that's cool.. but I'm also concerned for people who got caught in the property trap.

lmimmfn

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't begrudge anyone. It's not my style.

I'm glad that you're happy out.. that's cool.. but I'm also concerned for people who got caught in the property trap.

fair enough, but you have to admit, everyone in a property trap made a conscious decision when they took a mortgage, a 15-35 year risk, with possible outcomes that we're completely understood.

For gods sake anyone who couldnt perceive that property prices might drop below what they originally paid during the 35 year mortgage or whatever needs their head examined, especially when its been known for years it would crash, by then end of that 35 years it will be back up again.

MysticalRain

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't begrudge anyone. It's not my style.

I'm glad that you're happy out.. that's cool.. but I'm also concerned for people who got caught in the property trap.

They can have my sympathies, but not my money....what little I have left of it.

The fact is some people bet on a glorified pyramid scheme known as "the property market" and lost badly. It was their own decision, they should face up to the consequences and not come complaining to the rest of us asking for a bailout. Of course we're still paying for other their greed and shortsightedness anyway given the pay cuts the private sector has had to suffer.