IMPACT backs strike action over pay cuts

Lexus1976

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1021/partnership.html

Grrrrr....my blood boils everytime I read an article like this. I dont think these people realise that Ireland is practically bankrupted!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

If your not happy with your job or pay then leave!!! For every public sector worker out there I'm sure there are up to 20 people more qualified and experienced just waiting to fill their jobs.

citizen_p

ffs i say we all just join the dole.....
that will show them


but serously if they all quit its bigger pay cuts for them....so the wont quit....i say we fire them


like that one on the meteor ad

"next time you come up with a brillant idea, make sure it can clean the place after ya"
"what you say... your fired you cheeky little ****"

SoupyNorman

Let them strike, attracting public support will be the mark of their success.

orourkeda

Who's to blame?

Is it the unions for being unrealistic and attempting to justifying their existence?

Is it the government for poor economic management?

Is it the general public for irresponsible borrowing?

Is it the bank for irresponsible lending?

The thing is you can answer yes to all the above questions but will anyone take a step back and accept their share of the blame? The answer is no

Slow Motion

So if all the public sector workers go on strike will anyone notice the drop in productivity?

orourkeda

Slow Motion wrote: »

So if all the public sector workers go on strike will anyone notice the drop in productivity?

No.

Maybe thats the way to go. Link pay to productivity

seamus

orourkeda wrote: »

Who's to blame?

It's not about blame, it's about fact. Public Sector wages and Welfare consume 70% of government spending. They both need to be cut, and cut drastically. It doesn't matter who or what created the situation. Finding out who started the fire doesn't put it out.

godtabh

Slow Motion wrote: »

So if all the public sector workers go on strike will anyone notice the drop in productivity?

when you have to **** in the streets and drink rain water you might

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

I won't take the blame, I only owe a few grand for my college loan

Anyway, who is on strike? I might write their HR dept a letter:

Dear sir/madam,

I hear you have employees that are not happy with their work. I am willing to work for 15% less than the standard entry fee, this should cover my training. I would be more than happy to have a job. Thank you.




Ungreatful shower of cnuts, to hell with the unions, scum. Ignorant selfish fools... I would gladly work for less than their wage...

Degsy

Lexus1976 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1021/partnership.html

Grrrrr....my blood boils everytime I read an article like this. I dont think these people realise that Ireland is practically bankrupted!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

If your not happy with your job or pay then leave!!! For every public sector worker out there I'm sure there are up to 20 people more qualified and experienced just waiting to fill their jobs.

Why should the public sector be scapegoated for the governments mismanagement and stupidity?
When has the government every said "Its time to tax the wealthy,not people with mortages on 30k a year".
This is all a conspiracy to set both sides against each other so we lose sight of who really caused this mess..

Stark

orourkeda wrote: »

No.

Maybe thats the way to go. Link pay to productivity

That means more work for more pay. Striking means less work for more pay. Striking wins.

irish_bob

strikes are harmless providing they get no support , the problem is that while most of us dont work in the public sector , this being a small country , thier is hardly anyone who doesnt have a husband , wife , mum , dad , son or daughter etc who does work for the state and if thier is one thing irish people value , its keeping money in the family , a broke publican , shop keeper , carpenter or architect will in most cases support thier relatives who strike to the hilt , thinking of the national interest is not a common irish trait

Degsy

seamus wrote: »

It's not about blame, it's about fact. Public Sector wages and Welfare consume 70% of government spending. They both need to be cut, and cut drastically. It doesn't matter who or what created the situation. Finding out who started the fire doesn't put it out.

So one lot are paying taxes and helping to pay for he people who arent..dont you see the tax-take from prsi will fall even further if wages are cut..what about the knock-on effect to the economy if people have to tighten thier belts further?
This country is to fragile to take anymore tax hikes,pay cuts will be similarly disasterous.

Bob_Harris

Grrrr, it really makes my blood boil when people get off their asses and actually do something about the ass raping the people in charge of this country give ordinary people every day.

My mother is a teacher. I see a lot of nonsense posted up here "public servants" and "cushy jobs".

The vast majority of public servants are actually hard working and get paid an ordinary wage.

Slow Motion

Degsy wrote: »

Why should the public sector be scapegoated for the governments mismanagement and stupidity?

Because that's where most of our taxes are being wasted spent!

Stark

Bob_Harris wrote: »

Grrrr, it really makes my blood boil when people get off their asses and actually do something about the ass raping the people in charge of this country give ordinary people every day.

My mother is a teacher. I see a lot of nonsense posted up here "public servants" and "cushy jobs".

The vast majority of public servants are actually hard working and get paid an ordinary wage.

My dad and several friends of mine also work in the public service. I don't like to see them hit but I don't like to see the country go bankrupt either.

Lexus1976

Degsy wrote: »

Why should the public sector be scapegoated for the governments mismanagement and stupidity?
When has the government every said "Its time to tax the wealthy,not people with mortages on 30k a year".
This is all a conspiracy to set both sides against each other so we lose sight of who really caused this mess..

Everybody is taking a cut, not just the public sector, have you seen the new unemployment figures for Ireland?

I hope your not a public sector worker browsing boards rather then doing some work. Remember our taxes pay your wages.

Degsy

Slow Motion wrote: »

Because that's where most of our taxes are being wasted spent!

On wages for people who work to provide essential services or on keeping whole families in tracksuits and pajamas?

Stark

Degsy wrote: »

Why should the public sector be scapegoated for the governments mismanagement and stupidity?
When has the government every said "Its time to tax the wealthy,not people with mortages on 30k a year".
This is all a conspiracy to set both sides against each other so we lose sight of who really caused this mess..

How many public sector workers are on <30k a year in fairness? IMPACT represents mostly high paid (60k+) public servants, not the poorly paid examples that it cites.

seamus

Degsy wrote: »

So one lot are paying taxes and helping to pay for he people who arent..dont you see the tax-take from prsi will fall even further if wages are cut.

Do you not see what you're missing in that? It's a balancing act. If you cut the wage bill by (for example) €500 million by chopping the higher earners, then you "lose" the 46% of tax that would have been paid on that 500 million. But because the money goes back to the same place, the actual saving is in excess of €250m.
That PRSI will drop is largely irrelevant -it's all exchequer money at the end of the day. If the health system loses out from the drop in PRSI, it can be propped up from some of that €250m saving.

veryangryman

orourkeda wrote: »

Who's to blame?

Is it the unions for being unrealistic and attempting to justifying their existence?

Is it the government for poor economic management?

Is it the general public for irresponsible borrowing?

Is it the bank for irresponsible lending?

The thing is you can answer yes to all the above questions but will anyone take a step back and accept their share of the blame? The answer is no

One word. Capitalism. Another word. Bubble

Thats all it is and thats all it will be the next time it happens

Degsy

Stark wrote: »

How many public sector workers are on <30k a year in fairness? IMPACT represents mostly high paid (60k+) public servants, not the poorly paid examples that it cites.

Entry-level wages in my job are in the region of 22K with a degree.
In my department of 14 people there's two earning more than 48k and they have over 50 years between them.

seamus

Bob_Harris wrote: »

Grrrr, it really makes my blood boil when people get off their asses and actually do something about the ass raping the people in charge of this country give ordinary people every day.

My mother is a teacher. I see a lot of nonsense posted up here "public servants" and "cushy jobs".

The vast majority of public servants are actually hard working and get paid an ordinary wage.

I actually have a problem with how the public sector has structured itself, largely through the work of the unions.

There are two distinct parts to the public sector:

"Essential Services" - People who provide for the day-to-day needs of individuals within the population. This covers Education, healthcare and emergency services.

"Non-essential services" - People who work for the government - pen pushers, seat warmers, revenue clerks, etc.

Somewhere in the mix someone decided that those who work in non-essential services were just as essential as essential services and that everyone should be on similar payscales. So for some reason, instead of being able to pick and choose what areas of public service we can fire people from and hack wages off, we are forced to apply levies and cuts to everyone, when clearly some people are more important than others. Yes, that's right, if you're sitting in a seat reading boards, your job is less important than the Garda walking down the street and you should be first in line for the chopping block.

Degsy

Lexus1976 wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about?

Nobody's taxes are paying my wages..i work for al iving..i do a job of work and get paid for it.
People on the scratcher arent working OR paying taxes and thats where the wastage is coming from..and btw,i'm not talking about the poor sods who've found themselves recently jobless after working for years..i'm talking about professional welfare scroungers who've plenty of money for cars and big televisions and new clothes and have never done a handsturn to earn it.

godtabh

Degsy wrote: »

a)they dont want to work at all or b) they dont want to work unless the ideal job is dropped in thier lap.

That to me is the big problem.

They should be made to work for their dole be it cleaning the streets or helping out in schools or what ever.

If they have "disability" (real or not) they should be doing other stuff like licking stamps for the Department of Pissing Tax Payers Money Away.

Every one needs to contribute no matter who you are

Degsy

seamus wrote: »

"Non-essential services" - People who work for the government - pen pushers, seat warmers, revenue clerks, etc.
.

So when you ring the guards to say your house is being burgled,you only ask to speak to a cop on the beat?Presumably the guy in the station taking your call and writing your details down is a phony of some sort..leeching off the taxpayer?
If it wasnt for govt employees the country would be an even bigger pile of shiite..i mean just look at how well the IT companies bolstered the economy before upping sticks and leaving thier employees to sink or wswim.
People need work more than t hey need handouts.

orourkeda

seamus wrote: »

It's not about blame, it's about fact. Public Sector wages and Welfare consume 70% of government spending. They both need to be cut, and cut drastically. It doesn't matter who or what created the situation. Finding out who started the fire doesn't put it out.

While its a fact, it didnt get that way on its own.

The bankrupting of the irish economy was a team effort so to speak in the sense that everyone contributed.

godtabh

Degsy wrote: »

So when you ring the guards to say your house is being burgled,you only ask to speak to a cop on the beat?Presumably the guy in the station taking your call and writing your details down is a phony of some sort..leeching off the taxpayer?
If it wasnt for govt employees the country would be an even bigger pile of shiite..i mean just look at how well the IT companies bolstered the economy before upping sticks and leaving thier employees to sink or wswim.
People need work more than t hey need handouts.

How about the lad who is emploeed to photocopy?

or the lad who who now sweeps Peasrse Station when the automatic tickt barriers were installed?

Or the room in an Post where people are sent to do nothing

Or the power stations that arent operating but still have a full load of staff?

There are many many more examples of this

Stark

Degsy wrote: »

Entry-level wages in my job are in the region of 22K with a degree.
In my department of 14 people there's two earning more than 48k and they have over 50 years between them.

22k for what standard of degree for what kind of job? I know that a 2.1H degree typically starts you off on 25k in the private sector but that's for a skilled job directly applying what's learnt in the degree. Not much point in having a degree if all you're doing is photocopying.

ibarelycare

Bob_Harris wrote: »

Grrrr, it really makes my blood boil when people get off their asses and actually do something about the ass raping the people in charge of this country give ordinary people every day.

My mother is a teacher. I see a lot of nonsense posted up here "public servants" and "cushy jobs".

The vast majority of public servants are actually hard working and get paid an ordinary wage.

Ditto for private sector workers....yet I don't see them complaining about it. Why should the public sector be protected from the recession more than the private sector? A huge percentage of private sector workers have had to take pay cuts in the last year or so. It should be the same across the board.

Degsy

Stark wrote: »

22k for what standard of degree for what kind of job? I know that a 2.1H degree typically starts you off on 25k in the private sector but that's for a skilled job directly applying what's learnt in the degree. Not much point in having a degree if all you're doing is photocopying.

The private sector get paid more money..they always have.
There simply isnt like to compare with like in the two sectors..the public sector employees take less money and less oppurtunity for promotion in return for a degree of job security.

rovertime90

Slow Motion wrote: »

So if all the public sector workers go on strike will anyone notice the drop in productivity?

Well when nurses go on strike and hospital wards close i reckon we might notice it.

godtabh

Degsy wrote: »

The private sector get paid more money..they always have.

But with little or no job security and we pay for our own pension

There is more risk in the private sector hence bigger the reward. I could have retired to a county council job a couple of years ago. Wouldnt have to push myself in the slightest. I'd be bored silly having experience a secondment to semi state

Stark

Degsy wrote: »

The private sector get paid more money..they always have.

That's not what the figures show.

Degsy wrote: »

There simply isnt like to compare with like in the two sectors..the public sector employees take less money and less oppurtunity for promotion in return for a degree of job security.

There are two ways to increase your earnings in the private sector: 1) Do a cracker of a job. 2) Move jobs. Public sector workers don't have to do no. 1 as they get their increments as long as they don't set the place on fire or come in every day drunk out of their minds. Option 2 is open to private and public sectors alike.

akaredtop

All the mismangement in this country has been performed the Public Sector.
e.g. Fas, ESB, Financial Regulator, HSE, Government etc. Ye created the mess so ye should pay for it.

Degsy

kearnsr wrote: »

But with little or no job security and we pay for our own pension

So do we..my contributions at this stage are 13%..we retire on the state pension(like anybody else) and a contributary pension based on your wages when you leave..this is compulsory in the public sector.
For example somebody who retires at age 65 after 30 years service will recieve a total of 400 euro per week approx.
TBH,i dont think anybody in the public sector at the moment will get thier pension at all..the govt has plundered the pension funds long ago.

gazzer

With arguments like this you are always going to get people on one side or the other and then you get a few who hopefully can see both sides arguments.

For the record I am a Civil Servent. Have been for 18 years now. I have had 3promotions in that time and after tax, pension levy etc I come out with €550 a week. Now I dont think that is a huge amount for the amount of time I have spent in the job and for the promotions I have gotten but more importantly for the work I do. However having said that I can afford to take a drop in wages as I have no dependants and I dont have a mortage ( I sold my house last year and am currently renting).

If the government want to cut my wages further well there is nothing I can really do about it I suppose. However (and I must stress this) NONE of my friends in the private sector have taken a wage cut and NONE of them have lost their job. And before anybody thinks I am lying I am not. I have no reason to lie. I am all for taking another hit but I hate this whole 'everybody in the private sector has taken a hit' cos that is not true. There is a lot of people who have lost their job and a lot of others who have taken a pay cut but not everybody in the private sector has. EVERYBODY in the Public Sector has taken a pay cut. Fair enough you can call it a pension levy but the money is not been used to fund pensions.

If the government take more money off me(which i am sure they will) I will just spend more money up north on food etc and buy more things on the internet rather than buying in shops in the republic.

TheZohanS

Moved to Politics.

voxpop

Public sectors pay rose during the "good times" as a result of private sector productivity, not their own productivity (benchmarking). Now when wages are dropping and jobs are being culled in the private sector all the unions do is harp on about equality and fairness and how come we (public sector) have to take cuts. They need to cop on a bit - Ive seen the wastage in the public sector first hand - its amazing. Cronyism is rife. There is alot of middle management waste, who spend their time having meetings about meetings and not deciding anything. They hang around getting automatic increments, waiting for retirement age (cus they dont get the full pension if they retire early).

Teachers,nurses,firemen,garda all should be paid well. There should be a cull of middle management, a removal of auto increments and productivity metrics brought in.

Alot of this messing is also down to the unions making work for themselves and becoming outraged on behalf of workers who never asked them to. How much do these union guys pay themselves ? Who elected them to speak for workers and lobby the government?

rovertime90

gazzer wrote: »

With arguments like this you are always going to get people on one side or the other and then you get a few who hopefully can see both sides arguments.

For the record I am a Civil Servent. Have been for 18 years now. I have had 3promotions in that time and after tax, pension levy etc I come out with €550 a week. Now I dont think that is a huge amount for the amount of time I have spent in the job and for the promotions I have gotten but more importantly for the work I do. However having said that I can afford to take a drop in wages as I have no dependants and I dont have a mortage ( I sold my house last year and am currently renting).

If the government want to cut my wages further well there is nothing I can really do about it I suppose. However (and I must stress this) NONE of my friends in the private sector have taken a wage cut and NONE of them have lost their job. And before anybody thinks I am lying I am not. I have no reason to lie. I am all for taking another hit but I hate this whole 'everybody in the private sector has taken a hit' cos that is not true. There is a lot of people who have lost their job and a lot of others who have taken a pay cut but not everybody in the private sector has. EVERYBODY in the Public Sector has taken a pay cut. Fair enough you can call it a pension levy but the money is not been used to fund pensions.

If the government take more money off me(which i am sure they will) I will just spend more money up north on food etc and buy more things on the internet rather than buying in shops in the republic.

Totally agree with this comment

murphaph

Degsy wrote: »

So one lot are paying taxes and helping to pay for he people who arent..dont you see the tax-take from prsi will fall even further if wages are cut..what about the knock-on effect to the economy if people have to tighten thier belts further?
This country is to fragile to take anymore tax hikes,pay cuts will be similarly disasterous.

Facepalm. It's the same money degsy. Income tax on public sector pay is just an exercise in pushing money around. The 'tax' just goes back to source.

As for the economy suffering even more because we stop paying wages with money we haven't got-that's true in the short term, but medium term lower costs mean increased investment. We can't just devalue the punt like the old days-we have to reduce people's spending power directly as we are now bound by the Euro.

If you don't tax any more and you don't cut expenditure and you are borrowing 20 billion a year-what do you do to close that gap???? :eek:

akaredtop

Everthing the public sector touches ends in disaster. They are inefficient, lazy, inflexible, rude, underworked and overpaid. They cannot run an organisation without waste. Look at FAS, ESB, Dail Eireann and the County Councils. And these are just the ones we know about. God only knows what else is there waiting to be exposed.

bridgitt

akaredtop wrote: »

Everthing the public sector touches ends in disaster. They are inefficient, lazy, inflexible, rude, underworked and overpaid. They cannot run an organisation without waste. Look at FAS, ESB, Dail Eireann and the County Councils. And these are just the ones we know about. God only knows what else is there waiting to be exposed.

It comes from being highly unionised, with no competition.

dvpower

seamus wrote: »

I actually have a problem with how the public sector has structured itself, largely through the work of the unions.

There are two distinct parts to the public sector:

"Essential Services" - People who provide for the day-to-day needs of individuals within the population. This covers Education, healthcare and emergency services.

"Non-essential services" - People who work for the government - pen pushers, seat warmers, revenue clerks, etc.

Somewhere in the mix someone decided that those who work in non-essential services were just as essential as essential services and that everyone should be on similar payscales. So for some reason, instead of being able to pick and choose what areas of public service we can fire people from and hack wages off, we are forced to apply levies and cuts to everyone, when clearly some people are more important than others. Yes, that's right, if you're sitting in a seat reading boards, your job is less important than the Garda walking down the street and you should be first in line for the chopping block.

I wonder exactly who the non essential workers are.
You mention pen pushers and seat warmers. Can you be more specific?
You also mention revenue clerks. I think you'd find that without revenue clerks we could have no essential workers, because there would be no money to pay them.

There's a lot of rubbish spouted on these boards about cutting waste and retaining essential services but not too many people identifying the waste. Its just wishful thinking. We are going to have to make cuts more or less accross the board.

AARRRGH

Degsy wrote: »

The private sector get paid more money..they always have.

There simply isnt like to compare with like in the two sectors..the public sector employees take less money and less oppurtunity for promotion in return for a degree of job security.

Ah not this rubbish again.

It has been repeatedly proven beyond any doubt that public service workers on average are paid a lot more money than private sector workers.

rovertime90

akaredtop wrote: »

All the mismangement in this country has been performed the Public Sector.
e.g. Fas, ESB, Financial Regulator, HSE, Government etc. Ye created the mess so ye should pay for it.

So the banks have no part to play in this, thats strange

AARRRGH

rovertime90 wrote: »

So the banks have no part to play in this, thats strange

The banks just lent the money. It was a a government department (the financial regulator) which allowed unlimited lending.

P. Breathnach

AARRRGH wrote: »

The banks just lent the money. It was a a government department (the financial regulator) which allowed unlimited lending.

And every crime is the fault of the Gárdaí.

rovertime90

akaredtop wrote: »

Everthing the public sector touches ends in disaster. They are inefficient, lazy, inflexible, rude, underworked and overpaid. They cannot run an organisation without waste. Look at FAS, ESB, Dail Eireann and the County Councils. And these are just the ones we know about. God only knows what else is there waiting to be exposed.

Thats a real educated point there, you tarnish the whole public sector with one brush, but i forgot that the private sector is run so much more efficiently like the banks for example (oh yeah thats right, they just ran the country into the ground) I am so sick and tired of the private sector workers moaning about the public sector, we took paycuts, look at the unemployment levels boohoo two words Career Choice.

dvpower

gazzer wrote: »

If the government want to cut my wages further well there is nothing I can really do about it I suppose. However (and I must stress this) NONE of my friends in the private sector have taken a wage cut and NONE of them have lost their job. And before anybody thinks I am lying I am not. I have no reason to lie.

The reason your friends in the private sector haven't had pay cuts or been made redundant is because their firms are presumaby doing OK.
But you can be sure that as soon as this changes, their management will take corrective action. They will have no choice about that. They might be lucky and get through the recession unscathed.

The public sector is like a business that is in trouble. Its income (tax receipts) is not enough to sustain it, so it needs to cut its costs. This means reducing services and/or reducing salary costs. This may not be fair on individual public servants who are going to feel the brunt, but it is reality. The public service is in receipt of a massive and ongoing bailout (the current spending deficit) that cannot go on forever.

Its just bad luck. Like ordinary construction workers or those in the car industry, public servants happen to find themselves in a sector that is in trouble. Luckily for public servants, their jobs are pretty much gauranteed by the state, so the pain will be cushioned.

Nightwish

I'm in the public sector. Not a union member but most of my colleagues are Impact members. I wholeheartedly disagree with any form of industrial action. I'll take the hit in a pay cut, if its fair and its across the board. I am at a loss as to what I'll do if my colleagues go on strike. I cant afford to go AWOL, nor do I want to.