Who was the best Taoiseach

imme

Who in your opinion was the best Taoiseach
(you can include WT Cosgrave, even though he wasn't Taoiseach, he was President of the Executive Council, during the first 10-years of the Free State, post independence.)
After that you had, Eamon DeValera, John A. Costello, Sean Lemass, Jack Lynch, Liam Cosgrave, Charles Haughey, Garrett Fitzgerald, Albert Reynolds, John Bruton, Bertie Ahern, Brian Cowen.

Well?, who was the best Taoiseach?

Seth Brundle

Its a hard one as how do you judge them?

imme

kbannon wrote: »

Its a hard one as how do you judge them?

true, it's hard to judge and 'best' is very subjective, maybe people could suggest a 'best' Taoiseach for economic advancement, contribution to international affairs, contribution to NI affairs, or 'best' of your own chosing.

old boy

i propose lemass

K-9

I think Lemass wins. If DeV had gone earlier, I think this would be a No Brainer.

Lemass ticks the economic, foreign affairs and NI boxes.

Pride Fighter

Ireland has never had a great Taoiseach, we have had lots of bad and a few ok ones. Lemass, John Costello and Bruton never put a foot wrong so those 3 would be top IMO. Haughey and Ahern were probably our best but at the same time our worst due to corruption etc.

K-9

Costelloe? In the top 3?

I'd put Cosgrave ahead of him, at least.

Pride Fighter

K-9 wrote: »

Costelloe? In the top 3?

I'd put Cosgrave ahead of him, at least.

You can either blow out or blow up;)

Cosgrave was a terrible taoiseach, presided over a bad government. Conor Cruise O'Brien as a minister. That government was useless.

K-9

Pride Fighter wrote: »

You can either blow out or blow up;)

Cosgrave was a terrible taoiseach, presided over a bad government. Conor Cruise O'Brien as a minister. That government was useless.

Eh, I meant the original Cosgrave!

marco_polo

K-9 wrote: »

I think Lemass wins. If DeV had gone earlier, I think this would be a No Brainer.

Lemass ticks the economic, foreign affairs and NI boxes.

Probably the best Taoiseach, and one of the worst commerce ministers (I suppose most, but arguably not all, of the protectionist policy blame for that era can be laid at the feet of Dev though).

Pride Fighter

K-9 wrote: »

Eh, I meant the original Cosgrave!

Twas a terrible government as well.

K-9

marco_polo wrote: »

Probably the best Taoiseach, and one of the worst finance ministers (I suppose most, but arguably not all, of the policy blame for that era can be laid at the feet of Dev though).

In different circumstances McSharry could have been the worst Finance Minister ever. Minority Govt. and Tallaght strategy, probably the best ever Min. for Finance. Haughey gets all the credit for the financial policies of that Govt. when it was McSharry who threatened to resign and Haughey knew he was f*cked.

If those circumstances hadn't happened, God knows how he'd have went down, if he had have lasted.

I think it is unfair for some to blame DeV for staying onto long and then blaming Lemass as a bad Finance Minister. He had some power but limited. Taoiseachs often over rule Finance Ministers, Hell, Bertie did it to Cowen in the last election.

As it's Taoiseach, Lemass was ahead of his time on Foreign Affairs and NI. Economically he was just catching up but way ahead on the EEC.

ballsymchugh

i propose albert reynolds. simply because he got the ball rolling properly on the north. the IRA ceasefire broke down on bruton's watch, and he had a really really embarrassing laugh!!

K-9

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Twas a terrible government as well.

How, compared to others?

Seth Brundle

ballsymchugh wrote: »

i propose albert reynolds. simply because he got the ball rolling properly on the north. the IRA ceasefire broke down on bruton's watch, and he had a really really embarrassing laugh!!

He had occurred to me for the same reason (and also because the economy started going up around then)

MaceFace

An interesting question once you put a bit of thought into it.

I think Lemass is head and shoulders above anyone else.

I have nothing good to say about Dev and would put him beside Haughey and Ahern - only interested in their own well being and then that of their friends.

blinding

Sean Lemass for me.

Most of the rest were crooks and should be in jail or have been put in jail (when alive)

Seth Brundle

Given my disillusionment with politicians, I'd be inclined to think that Mr. Lemass was possibly no better than the others for backhanders, etc.

brianthebard

DeV was probably the best and worst at the same time tbh. Lemass is overrated imo.

Taxipete29

marco_polo wrote: »

Probably the best Taoiseach, and one of the worst commerce ministers (I suppose most, but arguably not all, of the protectionist policy blame for that era can be laid at the feet of Dev though).

It was suggested that Lemass proposed much of the protectionist policies to Dev in the first place and then removed them years later

ricecake100

imme wrote: »

Who in your opinion was the best Taoiseach
(you can include WT Cosgrave, even though he wasn't Taoiseach, he was President of the Executive Council, during the first 10-years of the Free State, post independence.)
After that you had, Eamon DeValera, John A. Costello, Sean Lemass, Jack Lynch, Liam Cosgrave, Charles Haughey, Garrett Fitzgerald, Albert Reynolds, John Bruton, Bertie Ahern, Brian Cowen.

Well?, who was the best Taoiseach?

The best was Jack Lynch, Seán Lemass and Charlie Haughey.

The worst was Liam Cosgrave, John Bruton and Garret FitzGerald.

Eric Cartman

Haughey or ahern i would say.

Tigerbaby

ricecake100 wrote: »

The best was Jack Lynch, Seán Lemass and Charlie Haughey.

The worst was Liam Cosgrave, John Bruton and Garret FitzGerald.

Fianna Fail much?

I would give the award to Enda Kenny. Turned the Country around from the worst depression since 1929. Foisted upon him by the thieves and racketeers in Fianna Fail and their Anglo/Irish Nationwide friends. (read Haughey, Bertie and Cowan)

The bravery of a Democratic politician to do the hard things, the right things should not be ignored.

VG31

I think history will judge Kenny and the current government kindly. When this governments achievements are looked back at, turning the country around from the mess FF left it in will far overshadow the usual scandals that occur during any governments term.

History will certainly not view Ahern and Cowen well.

conorh91

The best were Seán Lemass and Enda Kenny.

WT Cosgrave and CJ Haughey get reluctant honorable mentions. The former for the stability he oversaw, the latter for encouraging a friendly business environment (partly inspired by his father-in-law's legacy, no doubt…)

The worst were Liam Cosgrave, Garret Fitzgerald and Brian Cowen. Weak and ineffective taoisigh by almost every standard.

blinding

Sean Lemass is the only one that I wouldn't Piss on the Grave of.

K-9

blinding wrote: »

Sean Lemass is the only one that I wouldn't Piss on the Grave of.

Mod:
That's great and all but below the standard expected in the forum.

blinding

^^^^^^^^

Sorry about that K-9

If you're going to include the pre-1932 leaders then I think you must also allow the inclusion of Michael Collins (Chairman of the Provisional Government), and before him, Arthur Griffith and DeValera Mk I (first Presidents of the Republic)

Those were men who directly risked their lives for independence, I think it would be ungracious to exclude them. Consequently they're in my top three.

Lemass is one of my political heroes but I don't rate him as a Taoiseach.

Lemass was a great Minister for his directorship of the economy but he was not a great leader in the holistic sense.

DeValera. Now there was a man with visions. He even reported seeing a vision of Christ, shortly after founding Fianna Fail. What do you say to an endorsement like that, hmm?

Brian?

We really have elected some terrible leaders over the years, in my life time I think Albery Reynolds is the only FF one I have a shred of respect for left.

I believe some some of the FG leaders were men of integrity but I simple don't agree with the ideologically. I'd include Kenny in that. Some of the insults thrown at him by the hard left(an ideological position I hold myself) are disgraceful. I have found a new respect for him lately on how's he's seperated his beliefs as a catholic from his duty as Taoiseach. I wouldn't vote FG in a fit though.

MightyMandarin

Brian? wrote: »

We really have elected some terrible leaders over the years, in my life time I think Albery Reynolds is the only FF one I have a shred of respect for left.

I believe some some of the FG leaders were men of integrity but I simple don't agree with the ideologically. I'd include Kenny in that. Some of the insults thrown at him by the hard left(an ideological position I hold myself) are disgraceful. I have found a new respect for him lately on how's he's seperated his beliefs as a catholic from his duty as Taoiseach. I wouldn't vote FG in a fit though.

Is this belief based out of dislike for FG itself or because of your ideological disagreement with them?

Personally my ideology would rest somewhere between FF and Labour, but since both seem to be a shambles at the moment, and the alternatives are laughable, I'd have no problem voting FG.

I think Kenny is one of the few Taoiseach I have respect for. He's not the most charismatic guy around, but he's made some tough but correct decisions and along with Noonan has (almost) dragged us out of an almighty mess. It's a tossup between Kenny and Lemass for me, but I'd like to see Kenny get re-elected and be viewed historically as more than just being a part of saving the economy, and actually bring us back to a competitive level again.

jobbridge4life

Lemass kinda has to be him. Seems like the only one with a proper vision for the country.

Brian?

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Is this belief based out of dislike for FG itself or because of your ideological disagreement with them?

Ideology, pure and simple. I wouldn't vote for any of the main political parties anymore. I used to give Labour 2nd preference, never again though, they're a disgrace to the name Labour.

jobbridge4life

Brian? wrote: »

We really have elected some terrible leaders over the years, in my life time I think Albery Reynolds is the only FF one I have a shred of respect for left.

I believe some some of the FG leaders were men of integrity but I simple don't agree with the ideologically. I'd include Kenny in that. Some of the insults thrown at him by the hard left(an ideological position I hold myself) are disgraceful. I have found a new respect for him lately on how's he's seperated his beliefs as a catholic from his duty as Taoiseach. I wouldn't vote FG in a fit though.

Even Fitzgerald? He was always more of the lefty than anything.

KingBrian2

Garret Fitzgerald comes across as a really good Taoiseach then again he was before my time.

efb

Sean Lemass

Game over

ComfortKid

Bertie Ahern.

I'd say we had the lowest unemployment under him than any other.

jobbridge4life

ComfortKid wrote: »

Bertie Ahern.

I'd say we had the lowest unemployment under him than any other.

Yeah cause we were in a ponzi scheme... how'd that work out for us in the long run.

newmug

DeV was the best IMO. Kenny and Haughey were the worst.

jobbridge4life

newmug wrote: »

DeV was the best IMO. Kenny and Haughey were the worst.

You can't honestly be serious?

Mattie500

It is a very interesting debate... Lemass wasn't Taoiseach for very long but did start the modernisation of Ireland. Jack Lynch stood up to those within his own party who wanted to intervene directly in NI but his 1977 populist government set us back a decade. Fitzgerald had a great brain but FG did poorly from a political perspective. Haughey.... If you ignore the controversy was a skilled politician but power and FF came before Ireland. Reynolds and Bruton were good, Ahern took over a booming economy but wanted to be all things to everyone.... Keeping FF in power with high pay (incl welfare) and low tax. Cowan was a good party politician and became Taoiseach at the wrong time. Kenny has done remarkably well considering he isn't a charismatic leader but has a resilience and can make decisions. A second term is needed to establish his historical impact. Dev is probably my least favourite.... Simply because of his economic and foreign policies. I think he stifled our country which also kept our social conservatism for a far longer period.

jobbridge4life

Mattie500 wrote: »

It is a very interesting debate... Lemass wasn't Taoiseach for very long but did start the modernisation of Ireland. Jack Lynch stood up to those within his own party who wanted to intervene directly in NI but his 1977 populist government set us back a decade. Fitzgerald had a great brain but FG did poorly from a political perspective. Haughey.... If you ignore the controversy was a skilled politician but power and FF came before Ireland. Reynolds and Bruton were good, Ahern took over a booming economy but wanted to be all things to everyone.... Keeping FF in power with high pay (incl welfare) and low tax. Cowan was a good party politician and became Taoiseach at the wrong time. Kenny has done remarkably well considering he isn't a charismatic leader but has a resilience and can make decisions. A second term is needed to establish his historical impact. Dev is probably my least favourite.... Simply because of his economic and foreign policies. I think he stifled our country which also kept our social conservatism for a far longer period.

Great post, even if I don't agree entirely with your analysis. The parallels between Cowan and Gordon Brown will one day keep some phd candidate in politics busy I feel. Both men were physically unattractive, poor media performers, occasionally boorish, exceptional and I do mean exceptional political animals who came to power in the wake of populist politicians, were phenomenally successful in terms of personal political success up until their accession to the ultimate office and then both were entirely undone by the crisis. Having personally witnessed Cowan being held aloft and cheered as he won his seat in 2007 with one of the most significant first preference votes in national history I think no one embodies the old adage that all political careers end in failure better than Cowan.

Bradlin

If Haughey hadn't been so corrupt he would go down in history as the one whose changes made a meaningful difference.

Bertie couldn't make a decision to save his life because his sole motivation was getting re-elected over doing anything that would risk that. He was also the luckiest Taoiseach in the history of the State, given the positive global economic backdrop which delivered the economic 'groat'.

Albert was completely out of his depth and had very little between his two ears aside from what a smart cattle dealer would have.

Dev allowed his anti-Brit bitterness to dictate a protectionist policy which reined in the country's growth for decades.

Enda is getting tons of credit for implementing a policy which is none of his making, namely that of the Troika, and he/Noonan failed miserably to secure any debt concessions for the hard-pressed taxpayer.

Garrett and Bruton, two honest and honourable men, like Enda, delivered nothing of note and hence are difficult to assess.

Lemass appears to have made a positive contribution and wasn't corrupt and hence probably wins the award, but he ain't got much competition!

Gregor Samsa

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

DeValera. Now there was a man with visions. He even reported seeing a vision of Christ, shortly after founding Fianna Fail. What do you say to an endorsement like that, hmm?

I'd say he was either delusional or a liar. Which probably count as positive traits in a Taoiseach.

RecordStraight

ComfortKid wrote: »

Bertie Ahern.

I'd say we had the lowest unemployment under him than any other.

Wouldn't bankrupting the country and losing our sovereignty, zero regulation of the banking and building industry and massive corruption (both of Ahern and half of his government) count against him somewhat?

I know that technically we lost our sovereignty under Cowan, but by the time he took over it was all over bar the shouting.

ComfortKid

jobbridge4life wrote:

Yeah cause we were in a ponzi scheme... how'd that work out for us in the long run.

RecordStraight wrote:

Wouldn't bankrupting the country and losing our sovereignty, zero regulation of the banking and building industry and massive corruption (both of Ahern and half of his government) count against him somewhat?

Hardly all Berties fault, all of Europe and the US felt the recession. You think if we had a different government Ireland would be in a better place?
While Bertie was in charge everyone was happy, working and on good money. We wouldn't of voted them in time and time again if we weren't happy with them.
The recession was a global problem.

RecordStraight

ComfortKid wrote: »

Hardly all Berties fault, all of Europe and the US felt the recession. You think if we had a different government Ireland would be in a better place?
While Bertie was in charge everyone was happy, working and on good money. We wouldn't of voted them in time and time again if we weren't happy with them.
The recession was a global problem.

And that was why, globally, countries went bust? Or did only a tiny handful of incredibly badly run countries go bust?

I have to say, it takes a phenomenal account of ignoring facts to absolve Ahern and FF of flying the Irish economy into a mountainside. The fact that 'everyone' was, for a short period, working and on good money was just a symptom of the mismanagement.

I'm not sure if you are serious or if this is a wind-up - it's a bit like the people who say that Hitler did a great job in Germany, with the trains running on time etc.

Hotblack Desiato

conorh91 wrote: »

WT Cosgrave and CJ Haughey get reluctant honorable mentions. The former for the stability he oversaw, the latter for encouraging a friendly business environment

'Friendly business environment' provided the right people in FF were getting a cut. For everyone else, in 79-81 and 82 his populist policies set the country up for a lost decade of misery.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Garret Fitzgerald comes across as a really good Taoiseach then again he was before my time.

Fitzgerald was brilliant technically and a good minister but a poor party leader and an appalling Taoiseach. The 82-87 government was a dreadful time, imagine the rudderless last 6 months of FF/Green with the country drifting hopelessly along, but for five years.

Far too nice for his own good and reluctant to use the power his party and the electorate gave him. Could not make a decision to save his life.

Also caved in to lunacy and permitted the 8th amendment referendum wording to go ahead, which is unforgiveable. He barely mentioned that in his autobiography at all when it's actually the most important event of his political career with dreadful consequences lasting to this day, and probably for many years to come still.

ComfortKid

RecordStraight wrote:

I have to say, it takes a phenomenal account of ignoring facts to absolve Ahern and FF of flying the Irish economy into a mountainside. The fact that 'everyone' was, for a short period, working and on good money was just a symptom of the mismanagement.

RecordStraight wrote:

And that was why, globally, countries went bust? Or did only a tiny handful of incredibly badly run countries go bust?

Lets not forget Enda Kenny and Fine Geal were encouraging the government to spend even more when they were in opposition. We were practically forced to pay of debt belong to European banks. Our over spending is nothing in comparison with the debt we will be paying off for the next 30 or 40 years.

SOB2015

I'm going to give my two cents worth and say Lemass. What a contributor to developing our country to what it is today.

irishfeen

Absolutely no doubt about it - Sean Lemass was a brilliant visionary man and leader... if only the rest of them could have been half the man..