carbon rims

keogh777

What with Christmas fast approaching i was thinking of asking santa for some Reynolds Assaults - just wondering whats peoples experience regards braking when using all carbon rims, given the amount of rain we get here

feltAR2

zipps are the best carbon rims in the world. fswds or fast forwards are the next best

cosman9373

Haven't used reynolds, i'm afraid. My experience with all carbon wheels with carbon breaking surfaces are as long as you use the specific brake pads they're great just as good if not better. I've a pair of FSA Rd800 for about 2 years now and love them. The only down side I have found is that if you swap wheels around a bit it can be a pain swapping out the brake pads too but that's minor.
Hope santa is kind, I was writing my list last night!!

cosman9373

just reaslised you were asking about what they're like in the rain, this i'm not sure as my wheels are far too precious to bring out in the wet!

Reading reviews on the reynolds though braking seems to be the biggest issue.

Lumen

feltAR2 wrote: »

zipps are the best carbon rims in the world. fswds or fast forwards are the next best

Well Zipps are probably the most aerodynamic carbon rims in the world, due to the fact that they jointly (with HED) hold the patents for the toroidal rim profile, but I've read that Edge Composites support higher spoke tension and are less prone to cracking around the spoke holes due to the way the holes are formed rather than drilled/chamfered with Zipps.

Zipps are also not the lightest, and the hubs don't have a great reputation for durability.

Chips Lovell

Braking is fine as long as you use the correct pads in my experience, except for in heavy rain, when it can get a bit sketchy. What happens is that when you apply the brakes you get nothing at all until all of a sudden it suddenly catches. If it's raining, I tend to leave them at home.

Chips Lovell

BTW, are you planning on buying the clincher or tubular version?

Junior

I'd be looking at something along the lines of these link

keogh777

i want to get back into racing, so i was looking for wheels that i could use in time trails and the odd mass start and sportive. The Mavic Carbone SL has been my favorite so far due to cost and durability. But i really like the Fast Forward FR6 240's but they are a bit pricey for my pocket even with santa's help. Ive been looking solely at clinchers cause i am afraid of tubs, but i love the idea of tubs. I was just looking at the Reynolds cause the also seem like a good all rounder and a good weight

blorg

I'd just start with what you have and see how you go... deep section rims are very attractive but certainly not necessary, as you say most benefit is going to be in a time trial but even there the likes of position is more important. I have read that not wearing gloves is worth more than an aero front wheel.

Completely irrelevant in a sportive certainly.

dave2pvd

Lumen wrote: »

Well Zipps are probably the most aerodynamic carbon rims in the world, due to the fact that they jointly (with HED) hold the patents for the toroidal rim profile, but I've read that Edge Composites support higher spoke tension and are less prone to cracking around the spoke holes due to the way the holes are formed rather than drilled/chamfered with Zipps.

Zipps are also not the lightest, and the hubs don't have a great reputation for durability.

Lumen, the hub quality is much improved. Zipp admitted that it needed to (read an article somewhere....). Apparently 2008-onwards are better. Reputations die hard though.

Rim strength has also been improved. 3rd and 7th in Paris-Roubaix.

Great interview here with Zipp's lead engineer. Check out the bump drum testing machine.

Chips Lovell

All-carbon clinchers are still a fairly new technology. There have been issues with heat build-up in the rims since carbon doesn't dissipate heat as much as alloy. There's a lengthy thread over at Weight Weenies at the moment about a guy's Edge clincher rim that actually deformed because of it. Having gotten a blow out on an alloy rim on a long descent in Spain once, it's something I don't fancy happening again and with carbon you're increasing your chances.

My feeling would be that if you're buying carbon rims for racing either go all out and get tubs (which aren't that scary) or get a rim with an alloy brake surface, like the Cosmics Junior suggested. Tubs would be be lighter and nicer to ride on, while the alloy rim would be suit all weather conditions.

If I had pots of money, I'd buy all-carbon clinchers to add to the collection, but if I only had a budget for one set of race wheels I'd probably go for a something more conventional.

Raam

Junior wrote: »

I'd be looking at something along the lines of these link

That's what I want. Well, really I want the Ultimates, but they only come as tubs

Lumen

dave2pvd wrote: »

Lumen, the hub quality is much improved. Zipp admitted that it needed to (read an article somewhere....). Apparently 2008-onwards are better. Reputations die hard though.

Rim strength has also been improved. 3rd and 7th in Paris-Roubaix.

Great interview here with Zipp's lead engineer. Check out the bump drum testing machine.

I have read both sides of the debate. There is definitely merit in the "Zipp have sold so many wheels that it's easier to find reports of failure" way of thinking, and I do believe in their continuous improvement approach, but at the same time you wouldn't really be surprised if a Zipp cracked.

Interesting to read Tonto's report of the Edge deforming.

Brain dump from what I've read....

Mavics: bombproof, noisy, heavy, difficult to get parts, fill with water.
Zipps: ultimate aero per mm of depth, historical issues with hubs, rims cracking around spoke holes, corporate arrogance.
HEDs: Good reports of the alu wheels, deep sections have similar aero to Zipps, some reports of hub issues.
FFWD, Gigantex: more generic product, decent enough but not outstanding aero. Gigantex are at least cheap and easily available, but no carbon clinchers.
Edge Composites: weight weenie favourite, proper carbon clinchers and tubs, custom builds available from the likes of wheelbuilder.com. Strong, but not as strong as Cosmics.
Reynolds: good wheels but hard to get spares in the UK. Not as strong as Edge.
Lew: Shockingly expensive. Paul Lew now works for Reynolds.

Whilst I'm sure Zipp 404s are the best for aero, but think that Reynolds have the best logos, and have seriously considered some custom Edge 45s for weight and bling, I think I'd actually get most pleasure from some CCUs for the best combination of weight, depth, cool sound effects and Frenchness.

Tubs don't scare me much; I never get punctures anyway.

blorg

el tonto wrote: »

Having gotten a blow out on an alloy rim on a long descent in Spain once, it's something I don't fancy happening again and with carbon you're increasing your chances.

A guy with carbon rims went bang _right_ in front of me descending the Glandon in this year's Marmotte. He controlled it thank god for both of us. People were sitting on the brakes, it was very frustrating, I saw three others go the same. Late and hard with the corners is the ticket.

keogh777

blorg wrote: »

A guy with carbon rims went bang _right_ in front of me descending the Glandon in this year's Marmotte. He controlled it thank god for both of us. People were sitting on the brakes, it was very frustrating, I saw three others go the same. Late and hard with the corners is the ticket.

when riding tubs, do people generally carry a spare, with spare glue or is sealant enough ??

tunney

Lumen wrote: »

Well Zipps are probably the most aerodynamic carbon rims in the world, due to the fact that they jointly (with HED) hold the patents for the toroidal rim profile, but I've read that Edge Composites support higher spoke tension and are less prone to cracking around the spoke holes due to the way the holes are formed rather than drilled/chamfered with Zipps.

Zipps are also not the lightest, and the hubs don't have a great reputation for durability.

Edge composites sounded a *little* like jokers in that piece in pro-cycling (assuming thats where you got the info)

I've never heard of a single zipp or hed wheel cracking around the spoke holes.

If you are going aero - weight isn't the biggest deal and really the only two players are HED and Zipp.

Regarding hub durability, the hub units aren't as sealed as standard training wheels and these allows more crap into the hub and shortens the bearing lifespan. However its a trade off of speed and durability. If you want bomb proof then lightweight aero hoops are not for you.

Lumen

tunney wrote: »

Regarding hub durability, the hub units aren't as sealed as standard training wheels and these allows more crap into the hub and shortens the bearing lifespan. However its a trade off of speed and durability. If you want bomb proof then lightweight aero hoops are not for you.

I heard that the seals are crap because people judge wheels in a shop based on how long they keep spinning, so expensive wheels use low-friction seals for marketing purposes.

Regarding Edge strength, I think I read something from an independent wheelbuilder (who also builds Zipps) that the Edges support higher spoke tension. Although spoke tension is unrelated to wheel stiffness, so maybe Zipps are adequately strong.

edit: custom Zipps with DT Swiss 240s are about €1700 including VAT and duty. I wonder whether those hubs would be better than Zipp ones?

Murph100

Yeah Edge really seems to be the holy grail with WW, but they are not perfect as El Tonto pointed out. There have been quite a number of guys who said the finish on them was crap, with lots of ripples and bumps, apparently you have to go for the heavier & pricier 2.XX series to get a decent finish ( better build ? )

I reckon if they had the same number of hoops in use as Zipp we would hear of a lot more ' problems '.

I reckon Zipps or Heds are the way to go. Tubs of course, just cant see the point of deep section clinchers, all that money for a set of anchors

Chips Lovell

keogh777 wrote: »

when riding tubs, do people generally carry a spare, with spare glue or is sealant enough ??

I bring a spare, a roll of tub tape and some sealant. Sealant is great when it works, but if the hole is big enough you'll need a spare.

Quigs Snr

A certain former national champ and current bike shop owner, told me they stopped stocking zipps because they were too much trouble and based on my experience and the experience of others (who race, week in week out on their wheels, as opposed to those who buy a nice bike to look at, ride a couple of sportifs on and then proclaim that the wheels are excellent) I do not doubt this for a second. Zipp are certainley a great wheel if you have a sponsor, perhaps the best.

Those who followed my RAS blog might remember that two of our lads rode them in the RAS, one with an older set of clincher 404's from which the front wheel exploded on a small pothole near middleton on stage 2 (pictures somewhere on the Comeragh site from Stage 2 of the RAS), the other a brand new 2009 404 tub set had to be retightened and various other odd jobs done on them three times that week. 2 years earlier our own Ciaran Power broke 2 sets.

I have a set of 2003 404 tubs myself. Fairly light use, all thats wrong is the rattling dustcaps issue, which I am sorting out later. They have not given me any real problems but I would not expect them to survive a full racing program next year all the same without a healthy dose of luck.

The same bike shop owner by the way recommends the Reynolds all the way and has been riding them himself (even though they are not a dealer for them) for the past few years. His results although he doesn't race as much these days would indicate to me that they are a very fine wheel indeed and one which interest me greatly..

Murph100

Well so much for Zipps then !

Lumen

Quigs Snr wrote: »

The same bike shop owner by the way recommends the Reynolds all the way and has been riding them himself (even though they are not a dealer for them) for the past few years.

Do you think the (alleged lack of) availability of replacement rims is a concern? Can't remember where I read about it.

That's the only thing that puts me off the Reynolds. Other than the price, obviously.

I have an e-mail exchange with Reynolds, and "Upgrade" (the UK distributor for Reynolds) a while back.

I asked about the warranty programme, and was told:

Reynolds wrote:

The Reynolds Assurance Program is available worldwide, and is a very inclusive program. Intended use simply means that you are not doing anything out of the ordinary to cause damage to the wheels. Damage from crashing, hitting a pothole or similar would be covered.

It's basically an insurance policy as I understand it.

Powertap options are special order from the US and have a lead time of approx 6-8 weeks.

Chips Lovell

Just thinking aloud here, but is the popularity of Zipps among tri crowd down to that they are used there under less ardous conditions, i.e. on good roads with perfect visibility for potholes etc. If your road racing though wheels are likely to take far more abuse, especially if you're tucked in a bunch and don't see upcoming potholes and other crap.

Lumen

el tonto wrote: »

Just thinking aloud here, but is the popularity of Zipps among tri crowd down to that they are used there under less ardous conditions, i.e. on good roads with perfect visibility for potholes etc. If your road racing though wheels are likely to take far more abuse, especially if you're tucked in a bunch and don't see upcoming potholes and other crap.

Probably.

Thought: who cares if the wheels break, if they are covered under warranty?

Are there any Reynolds dealers in Ireland? I never bothered asking, because I was looking for powertap builds which were special order.

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

Thought: who cares if the wheels break, if they are covered under warranty?

Well there's the issue of whether they'll actually follow through with their promises or whether they'll try to weasel out of them.

Lumen wrote: »

Are there any Reynolds dealers in Ireland? I never bothered asking, because I was looking for powertap builds which were special order.

Chain reaction sell them, though they aren't great people when it comes to warranties in my experience

Murph100

Holy Crap .... 285g for a 46mm carbon rim !!!!


http://www.rar-wheels.com/en/wheels/range/optimal


Sorry Lumen

blorg

I've had mixed experience with CRC regarding warranty issues but in general they have been fine for me.

If they are an authorised dealer they will in my experience handle returns well for you, I got a DT Swiss front wheel replaced through them under warranty for a bearing issue. Bearings are actually specifically excluded from the warranty but I gather this was a bit of a common issue so it was replaced. Brand new wheel, very happy with that.

I think I had another issue also dealt with well but they wouldn't replace two pair of shorts that had the stitching go in exactly the same place. In fairness to them it was over a year before I sent them back (I had notified them before but didn't get around to it) and they offered my a discount to make up for it.

On the flip side I couldn't get a Trek replaced under their crash protection programme as Trek/Madison claimed that CRC were not authorised to sell the bike (this was _before_ Trek banned internet sales BTW.) In fairness that was not strictly a "warranty" issue but a voluntary programme from Trek. In the event I didn't contact CRC on it at all so I hold that one against Trek more than CRC to be honest. Obviously I would have pressed it more had it been an actual warranty issue rather than a crash.

To be honest I think they are just going to deal with the manufacturer on your behalf, maybe they will not go above and beyond so it may depend on how good the actual manufacturer warranty is (I know legally your contract is with the shop not the manufacturer.)

I certainly wouldn't be worried buying from them.

gman2k

Murph100 wrote: »

Holy Crap .... 285g for a 46mm carbon rim !!!!


http://www.rar-wheels.com/en/wheels/range/optimal


Sorry Lumen

Hey Murph, did you ever get the American Classics from Epic in the UK?
I have a pair of mag clinchers on order, but they seem like vapour ware at the moment - were due in Sept - still no sign....

Raam

Slight side issue, but warranties are one reason why I like making the big purchases (frames, bling wheels) in local bike shops. I prefer dealing with people in person if making returns of those items. Which is why I'll probably buy my Carbone Utlimates from Humphries.

keogh777

Raam wrote: »

Slight side issue, but warranties are one reason why I like making the big purchases (frames, bling wheels) in local bike shops. I prefer dealing with people in person if making returns of those items. Which is why I'll probably buy my Carbone Utlimates from Humphries.

just wondering how much humphries is charging for the carbones ?

Chips Lovell

blorg wrote: »

I've had mixed experience with CRC regarding warranty issues but in general they have been fine for me.

....

I certainly wouldn't be worried buying from them.

I had a Record crank arm break on me. They insisted that it could only have been caused by a crash, despite the fact that the bike had never been crashed. They gave me a new pair of Chorus cranks as a gesture of goodwill, but the experience left a bad taste in my mouth. I now buy all my big ticket items from Slane, who seem a bit more customer focussed.

Lumen

Apparently Lightweights are the best choice for animal lovers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5aIah6aNaI

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

Apparently Lightweights are the best choice for animal lovers.

They are designed to crumple on canine impact, have you never heard of a crumple zone. Look at that dog, walked away no problem.

Murph100

Well after Lumen had somewhat diminished my hunger for them, I cancelled the order and got a pair of Shamals from Slane.

I actually checked with Chris only a week ago to see if he had a blast on the Mags, but they still hadn't arrived, and this was a pair that Chris had ordered for himself months ago.


For once, I guess I can say Lumens undermining tactics worked in my favour, I'd have cracked up with all the delays by now ..... probably just like the Mags !

gman2k wrote: »

Hey Murph, did you ever get the American Classics from Epic in the UK?
I have a pair of mag clinchers on order, but they seem like vapour ware at the moment - were due in Sept - still no sign....

Raam

keogh777 wrote: »

just wondering how much humphries is charging for the carbones ?

I dunno, but it will be ages before I finally make a purchase.

Murph100

Jaysus Raam, they're more expensive than Boras at Slane Cycles .. £2,070 !!

You could get these for €2,150 with no exploding spokes and 160g lighter ( deeper too )

http://www.rar-wheels.com/en/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=3&category_id=9

Raam wrote: »

I dunno, but it will be ages before I finally make a purchase.

Raam

Murph100 wrote: »

Jaysus Raam, they're more expensive than Boras at Slane Cycles .. £2,070 !!

You could get these for €2,150 with no exploding spokes and 160g lighter ( deeper too )

http://www.rar-wheels.com/en/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=3&category_id=9

€2200 here: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=42072

Dunno if an LBS would match that though

Murph100

I'd say CRC is probably buying Mavics in at a much better rate than your LBS, but if he came within €100 of CRC it would be worth it for all the trips back to fix the spokes.

Raam wrote: »

€2200 here: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=42072

Dunno if an LBS would match that though

Lumen

Murph100 wrote: »

I'd say CRC is probably buying Mavics in at a much better rate than your LBS, but if he came within €100 of CRC it would be worth it for all the trips back to fix the spokes.

See, there are some retrogrouches who would suggest that carbon fibre spokes are a really bad idea. But that can't be true, because Competitive Cyclist say:

"Big guys and 'crossers can take any Mavic wheelset and beat them like the proverbial rented mule and the wheels will still be rolling true at the end of the day."

Any Mavic wheelset. Well, apart from the R-SYS, but that doesn't count because those spokes are in compression.

Murph100

Heh ! Well lets just say carbon spokes are up there with magnesium rims on the ' lets see what happens ' shelf.

Oh and I agree, Competitive Cyclist only tells it like it is......

Lumen wrote: »

See, there are some retrogrouches who would suggest that carbon fibre spokes are a really bad idea. But that can't be true, because Competitive Cyclist say:

"Big guys and 'crossers can take any Mavic wheelset and beat them like the proverbial rented mule and the wheels will still be rolling true at the end of the day."

Any Mavic wheelset. Well, apart from the R-SYS, but that doesn't count because those spokes are in compression.

Raam

Murph100 wrote: »

I'd say CRC is probably buying Mavics in at a much better rate than your LBS, but if he came within €100 of CRC it would be worth it for all the trips back to fix the spokes.

But aren't the Carbone Ultimates simply to die for

feltAR2

new dura ace deep sections are class maybe too pricey though.
as for zipp hubs they have a new repairable hub out so they are too bomb proof fswds can be brought in ireland from http://www.banacosports.com/. great wheel and the beauty about them is that not many people have them like every tom dick and harry riding around with zipps

Lumen

feltAR2 wrote: »

new dura ace deep sections are class maybe too pricey though.
as for zipp hubs they have a new repairable hub out so they are too bomb proof fswds can be brought in ireland from http://www.banacosports.com/. great wheel and the beauty about them is that not many people have them like every tom dick and harry riding around with zipps

What's the story with this banaco sports crowd?

There is no price info on the site. Does that mean they are selling at the RRP on the FFWD site?

edit: looks like it's run by Keith Bannan. Do you know him?

Murph100

Anyone using Corimas .. seems pretty good for the money, very euro too.

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/photo-372576-aero-extralite-1210g-3_jpg.html

Raam

Murph100 wrote: »

Anyone using Corimas .. seems pretty good for the money, very euro too.

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/photo-372576-aero-extralite-1210g-3_jpg.html

I had wanted a set of Corimas until I saw the Ultimates.

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

I had wanted a set of Corimas until I saw the Ultimates.

If you're going to go completely mental and get carbon spokes, you'd be better off with some RZRs:

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

If you're going to go completely mental and get carbon spokes, you'd be better off with some RZRs:

Why?

I get enough grief from ScottReynolds everytime I see him. If I have his name on my bike he will pretty much own me.

Murph100

Dont tell me you got a Scott ?

Raam wrote: »

Why?

I get enough grief from ScottReynolds everytime I see him. If I have his name on my bike he will pretty much own me.

Raam

Murph100 wrote: »

Dont tell me you got a Scott ?

Nope, I was just thinking of the Reynolds part only

Murph100

PHEW !!! BTW, those RAR rims are actually Reynolds BUT without the name but shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!

Raam wrote: »

Nope, I was just thinking of the Reynolds part only