Anglicans and Catholic Church [article]

Plowman

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philologos

Although the Anglican Church does bear many similarities to the Catholic Church in structure and in practice, there would be quite a difficulty in encouraging Anglican Evangelicals, or those who hold to Reformed theology to join Catholicism.

philstar

Plowman wrote: »

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Rowan Williams is just your typical anglican leader...a spineless fuddy duddy

call ian paisley a bigot, but at least he's got some backbone he would have told the RC church to back off

Stephentlig

well, I was just on my way to post that article, it is exciting news for unity indeed. Praise be the Lord, ''May they be one'' not a denomination of 30,000

God bless
Stephen.

philstar

Stephentlig wrote: »

Praise be the Lord, ''May they be one''

.

oh ya, and what one should that be???:cool:

kelly1

They must see something good in the Church! Good news.

Plowman

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homer911

On another thread recently there has been mention of "High church" and "Low church" in the anglican tradition

This seems to be very much a bunch of "high church" anglican churches which would always have had a certain affinity with the RC church. If there was a sliding scale of Christian Denominations with Protestants on one side and Catholics on the other, the TAC would probably be right in the middle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Anglican_Communion

I note also that this group only formed in 1991 - they seem to be still making their mind up what they are

prinz

philstar wrote: »

Rowan Williams is just your typical anglican leader...a spineless fuddy duddy

Any time I have seen him in the media he seems to be a fine man.

philstar wrote: »

...call ian paisley a bigot, but at least he's got some backbone

Don't mind if I do, the Reverend Doctor was very much a bigot, and an ignorant bigot at that. How he squared that with Jesus only they know.

philstar wrote: »

he would have told the RC church to back off

This isn't the Premiership with teams 'poaching' players :rolleyes: It's called free will. Let people choose what they choose.

fryup

philstar wrote: »

Rowan Williams is just your typical anglican leader...a spineless fuddy duddy

Robert Runcie was another spineless windbag, those anglican leaders have got the charisma of a plank.

Its no wonder there in the state there in. (esp in england)

PDN

To be honest I think this is inevitable. The concept of an established 'national' church is getting harder and harder to sustain in an age where migration and inter-connectivity on the web have exploded.

Churches and denominations that can survive and flourish in this environment need some kind of 'glue' to hold them together. In Roman Catholicism this is provided by the Papacy. In most other churches the 'glue' is a common belief system, or a shared vision of how church should be.

The problem is that Anglicanism is a bit like Noah's ark - it contains two of every kind. Various types of Anglicanism have very different beliefs and visions of what church should be like, and (unlike Catholicism) they don't claim to be the one true Church that Christ established. So where is the 'glue'?

At present much of the numerical growth in Anglicanism is overseas where it functions pretty much as an Evangelical or Pentecostal denomination with the Anglican trimmings of clerical dress and infant baptism. This wing of the Church is already hanging in the denomination by a thread (due to theologically liberal American Episcopalians ordaining practising homosexuals) and it won't take much for it to depart.

Similarly, many Anglo-Catholics are much nearer to Rome than Canterbury at heart - and it won't take much for them to go. I feel sorry for Rowan Williams, because I think he has an absolutely impossible task in trying to hold it all together.

One other aspect of this is that, since the RC Church seems to be pretty blatantly fishing for converts in the Anglican pool, then they can have little grounds for complaint that evangelicals are similarly targetting Catholics in Latin America for conversion. You reap what you sow etc.

Clemens

An interesting question is how other "high church" protestants are going to do when they see these anglican groups can become members of the catholic church. This decision can turn out to be a very important one in catholic-protestant relations.

PDN

Clemens wrote: »

An interesting question is how other "high church" protestants are going to do when they see these anglican groups can become members of the catholic church. This decision can turn out to be a very important one in catholic-protestant relations.

You thinking of Lutherans? I can't think of many other high-church Protestants.

prinz

PDN wrote: »

One other aspect of this is that, since the RC Church seems to be pretty blatantly fishing for converts in the Anglican pool, then they can have little grounds for complaint that evangelicals are similarly targetting Catholics in Latin America for conversion. You reap what you sow etc.

How is this blatant "fishing for converts"?

PDN

prinz wrote: »

How is this blatant "fishing for converts"?

It's announcing a change in the rules to specifically promote the transfer of groups of Anglicans into the RC Church. As such it is clearly hoping to

I would see it as similar to Arsenal saying, "We're going to change our wage structure and disciplinary policy to facilitate any Chelsea players that want to join us next season." You can dress such an announcement up however you like - but in the end its essentially a poaching exercise.

Not that I've any problems with that, I believe in the survival of the fittest when it comes to religion, and I'm happy for all churches to do what they can (obviously nothing immoral or dishonest) to attract members.

Clemens

PDN wrote: »

You thinking of Lutherans? I can't think of many other high-church Protestants.

Yes, I was thinking of Lutherans. I think the case of some Lutheran national churches is quite similar to that of the Church of England.

prinz

PDN wrote: »

It's announcing a change in the rules to specifically promote the transfer of groups of Anglicans into the RC Church. As such it is clearly hoping to...

But it is Anglicans approaching the RCC looking for this and not the other way round.

PDN wrote: »

I would see it as similar to Arsenal saying, "We're going to change our wage structure and disciplinary policy to facilitate any Chelsea players that want to join us next season."...

Except it's not "any players who want to join next season", it's more a case of the queue of players already looking to join this season. These people are obviously deeply unhappy with the Anglican church as it is now.

Slav

One thing I don't understand (putting the RCC position aside) is why breaking with other Anglicans would necessarily mean entering into communion with the RCC? How these two are related? Why not just stay as an independent Church?

After all the groups in question are well established already with their own episcopate, organisational structures, etc.

prinz

Slav wrote: »

One thing I don't understand (putting the RCC position aside) is why breaking with other Anglicans would necessarily mean entering into communion with the RCC? How these two are related? Why not just stay as an independent Church?

+1, that's what I was getting at too. I don't see the issue of the RCC "poaching" people away... there's free will for that. These people are voluntarily approaching the RCC when they could just as easily set up their own outside of both the Anglican and RCC.

Stephentlig

prinz wrote: »

+1, that's what I was getting at too. I don't see the issue of the RCC "poaching" people away... there's free will for that. These people are voluntarily approaching the RCC when they could just as easily set up their own outside of both the Anglican and RCC.

and the protestants/evangelicals were approaching catholics in gutamala in a immoral and dishonest way, promising them houses and money if they joined their church, and when most of them saw that this was a farce, they quickly left the evangelical church and went straight back to the Catholic church. at least thats what I read in the papers a while back, so its open for correction.

PDN

Stephentlig wrote: »

and the protestants/evangelicals were approaching catholics in gutamala in a immoral and dishonest way, promising them houses and money if they joined their church, and when most of them saw that this was a farce, they quickly left the evangelical church and went straight back to the Catholic church. at least thats what I read in the papers a while back, so its open for correction.

And of course we believe what we read in the papers .....

As a mod here I spend an inordinate amount of my time deleting posts, infracting posters, banning posters, then having lengthy inquests on Feedback with them, all because they make inaccurate attacks on Catholicism. Comments such as yours really make me wonder why I bother.

Stephentlig

PDN wrote: »

And of course we believe what we read in the papers .....

As a mod here I spend an inordinate amount of my time deleting posts, infracting posters, banning posters, then having lengthy inquests on Feedback with them, all because they make inaccurate attacks on Catholicism. Comments such as yours really make me wonder why I bother.

but I claimed that my post was possibly inaccurate and open for correction. The Papers I read it in was a good source, not just your normal tabloid paper. I trust what I read in the Irish Catholic.

you made an inaccurate claim that the Catholic church was poaching, so maybe you should ban yourself from the forum.

fryup

Well it is poaching, they've been cunningly doing it for years esp in the UK amongst the establishment.

The ultimate goal is to regain the british throne.

PDN

Stephentlig wrote: »

you made an inaccurate claim that the Catholic church was poaching, so maybe you should ban yourself from the forum.

No, I made a comment about how the Vatican's switching of their rules to accommodate Anglicans looks to me. It was certainly not intended as an attack and I'm sorry that it seems to have made anyone defensive enough to feel they have to retaliate. I've already stated that I believe in a free exchange of ideas and think every church has the right to seek converts among other groups (and that includes the wee lady with her miraculous medals who stands outside our church and keeps trying to convert our church members as they leave our services on a Sunday).

If you're really interested in what's going on in places like Guatemala, then it might be useful to listen to a more balanced view (including those of some Catholic voices): http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week836/cover.html What's happening in Latin America could make for an interesting discussion if we all tried to listen to one another.

Generally the biggest problems in communication on this forum occur when Catholics gather their 'information' on Protestants from solely Catholic sources, and Protestants gather their 'information' on Catholics from solely Protestant sources. I would have thought that discussing things among ourselves could produce a more balanced conversation - but maybe not.

kelly1

PDN wrote: »

Generally the biggest problems in communication on this forum occur when Catholics gather their 'information' on Protestants from solely Catholic sources, and Protestants gather their 'information' on Catholics from solely Protestant sources. I would have thought that discussing things among ourselves could produce a more balanced conversation - but maybe not.

Amen to that brother!

prinz

PDN wrote: »

As a mod here I spend an inordinate amount of my time deleting posts, infracting posters, banning posters, then having lengthy inquests on Feedback with them, all because they make inaccurate attacks on Catholicism. Comments such as yours really make me wonder why I bother.

In fairness you did bring it up yourself. The last thing the thread needs is a tit for tat who's poaching who. Like I said in an earlier post this isn't the premiership or a schoolground kids gang.

Stephentlig wrote: »

I trust what I read in the Irish Catholic..

If it's anything like Alive magazine then I wouldn't if I were you. Not so long ago they were spreading all sorts of nonsense about the Lisbon Treaty. Utter lies.

fryup wrote: »

The ultimate goal is to regain the british throne.

:rolleyes: Whatever you say. CT forum perhaps? At this stage they couldn't give the throne away.

PDN wrote: »

I would have thought that discussing things among ourselves could produce a more balanced conversation - but maybe not.

+1.

philologos

The simple way I see it is that the Pope is no longer trying to discuss with the heirarchy of the Anglican Church, but rather he has gone about it through dissatisfiactory means. However, there is really a very small amount of people that the Popes decision will influence in Britain. We are basically talking about conservative Anglo-Catholics.

Slav wrote:

One thing I don't understand (putting the RCC position aside) is why breaking with other Anglicans would necessarily mean entering into communion with the RCC? How these two are related? Why not just stay as an independent Church?

It doesn't. On the other side you have GAFCON, and the Anglican Church of North America (Episcopal Church) trying to regain influence on the side of reformed conservatism or Anglican Evangelicalism.

I think that this approach is also wrong. Promoting views within the church is better than breaking away.

Stephentlig

No, I made a comment about how the Vatican's switching of their rules to accommodate Anglicans looks to me.

well that comment has been corrected, and it was still an inaccurate judgement of yours. Below is what the Vatican actually wrote, taken from the Vaticans website. there is no changing of the rules, the Eastern byzantine Catholics were given the same thing, they can get married and do their liturgy which differs from the Western Liturgy as can the anglicans.

also we see in the below that it was the anglicans who came to the Catholics and not the other way around. Neither I nor the wee lady outside your sunday services can convert you by the way, only God can, through his Catholic church.

NOTE ON ANGLICANS WISHING TO ENTER THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

VATICAN CITY, 20 OCT 2009 (VIS) - In a meeting with journalists held this morning in the Holy See Press Office Cardinal William Joseph Levada, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and Archbishop Joseph Augustine Di Noia O.P., secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, presented a note on a new measure concerning "Personal Ordinariates for Anglicans entering the Catholic Church".

Commenting on the English-language note, which has been published by his dicastery, Cardinal Levada explained how, "with the preparation of an Apostolic Constitution, the Catholic Church is responding to the many requests that have been submitted to the Holy See from groups of Anglican clergy and faithful in different parts of the world who wish to enter into full visible communion.

"In this Apostolic Constitution the Holy Father has introduced a canonical structure that provides for such corporate reunion by establishing Personal Ordinariates, which will allow former Anglicans to enter full communion with the Catholic Church while preserving elements of the distinctive Anglican spiritual and liturgical patrimony. Under the terms of the Apostolic Constitution, pastoral oversight and guidance will be provided for groups of former Anglicans through a Personal Ordinariate, whose Ordinary will usually be appointed from among former Anglican clergy.

"The forthcoming Apostolic Constitution provides a reasonable and even necessary response to a worldwide phenomenon, by offering a single canonical model for the universal Church which is adaptable to various local situations and equitable to former Anglicans in its universal application. It provides for the ordination as Catholic priests of married former Anglican clergy. Historical and ecumenical reasons preclude the ordination of married men as bishops in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. The Constitution therefore stipulates that the Ordinary can be either a priest or an unmarried bishop. The seminarians in the Ordinariate are to be prepared alongside other Catholic seminarians, though the Ordinariate may establish a house of formation to address the particular needs of formation in the Anglican patrimony".

"The provision of this new structure is consistent with the commitment to ecumenical dialogue, which continues to be a priority for the Catholic Church, particularly through the efforts of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. The initiative has come from a number of different groups of Anglicans" who, said Cardinal Levada, "have declared that they share the common Catholic faith as it is expressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and accept the Petrine ministry as something Christ willed for the Church. For them, the time has come to express this implicit unity in the visible form of full communion".

The cardinal further indicated that "it is the hope of the Holy Father Benedict XVI that the Anglican clergy and faithful who desire union with the Catholic Church will find in this canonical structure the opportunity to preserve those Anglican traditions precious to them and consistent with the Catholic faith. Insofar as these traditions express in a distinctive way the faith that is held in common, they are a gift to be shared in the wider Church. The unity of the Church does not require a uniformity that ignores cultural diversity, as the history of Christianity shows. Moreover, the many diverse traditions present in the Catholic Church today are all rooted in the principle articulated by St. Paul in his letter to the Ephesians: 'There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism'.

"Our communion", the cardinal added in conclusion, "is therefore strengthened by such legitimate diversity, and so we are happy that these men and women bring with them their particular contributions to our common life of faith".

In a joint declaration on the same subject, Catholic Archbishop Vincent Gerard Nichols of Westminster and Anglican Archbishop Rowan Williams of Canterbury affirm that the announcement of the Apostolic Constitution "brings to an end a period of uncertainty for such groups who have nurtured hopes of new ways of embracing unity with the Catholic Church. It will now be up to those who have made requests to the Holy See to respond to the Apostolic Constitution", which is a "consequence of ecumenical dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion.

"The on-going official dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion provides the basis for our continuing co-operation", the declaration adds. "The Anglican Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC) and International Anglican Roman Catholic Commission for Unity and Mission (IARCCUM) agreements make clear the path we will follow together.

"With God's grace and prayer we are determined that our on-going mutual commitment and consultation on these and other matters should continue to be strengthened. Locally, in the spirit of IARCCUM, we look forward to building on the pattern of shared meetings between the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales and the Church of England's House of Bishops with a focus on our common mission".

philologos

Stephen, whether we like it or not, the Catholic Church are making an unwelcome intervention in Anglican affairs. If this happened the other way around I can only imagine the uproar.

wolfsbane

Slav wrote: »

One thing I don't understand (putting the RCC position aside) is why breaking with other Anglicans would necessarily mean entering into communion with the RCC? How these two are related? Why not just stay as an independent Church?

After all the groups in question are well established already with their own episcopate, organisational structures, etc.

Because they are Roman Catholics in heart. They are not Independents in heart. Nor even Anglicans.

All they have ever looked for was a return of the CoE to Rome, but continued in it in the meantime. Now that it is so openly corrupt, both conscience and opportunity provide the ideal motivation for jumping ship.

Stephentlig

Jakkass wrote: »

Stephen, whether we like it or not, the Catholic Church are making an unwelcome intervention in Anglican affairs. If this happened the other way around I can only imagine the uproar.

Not at all Jakkass, as the statement clearly says:"the Catholic Church is responding to the many requests that have been submitted to the Holy See from groups of Anglican clergy and faithful in different parts of the world who wish to enter into full visible communion."

I trust our Holy Fathers response is a great move towards unity, and its called Holy obedience, I'm over the moon. If it happened the other way around Jakkass, No Catholic would bother, as it would mean they'd be leaving Mother Church who is the ark of salvation.

I'm so happy, that I feel like gathering up all the anglicans I can and throwing a party, getting out my guitar and singing "Give thanks to the Lord always and again I say give thanks, give thanks to the Lord always and again I say give thanks, give thanks, give thanks and again I say give thanks."