Religion

boxclever

I find it hard to believe the amount of intelligent people who still subscribe to religious teachings.

I have no issue with someone having a belief system and praying there is something bigger out there, but, what I find incredible is the faith people place in the different religions. Most people will say they agree with the teaching of whatever religion they are geographically are closest too exept for this or that element.

Why do the still feel the need to be part of a particular religion? Why cant people have their own faith based on their own beleifs

PDN

boxclever wrote: »

I find it hard to believe the amount of intelligent people who still subscribe to religious teachings.

I have no issue with someone having a belief system and praying there is something bigger out there, but, what I find incredible is the faith people place in the different religions. Most people will say they agree with the teaching of whatever religion they are geographically are closest too exept for this or that element.

Why do the still feel the need to be part of a particular religion? Why cant people have their own faith based on their own beleifs

People do have their own faith based on their own beliefs. And when you get a group of people with similar such beliefs we tend to call it a 'religion'.

boxclever

PDN wrote: »

People do have their own faith based on their own beliefs. And when you get a group of people with similar such beliefs we tend to call it a 'religion'.

People dont start religions they follow exising ones.

robindch

boxclever wrote: »

People dont start religions they follow exising ones.

Try telling that to a scientologist.

faceman

boxclever wrote: »

I find it hard to believe the amount of intelligent people who still subscribe to religious teachings.

I have no issue with someone having a belief system and praying there is something bigger out there, but, what I find incredible is the faith people place in the different religions. Most people will say they agree with the teaching of whatever religion they are geographically are closest too exept for this or that element.

Why do the still feel the need to be part of a particular religion? Why cant people have their own faith based on their own beleifs

Im going to make a presumption that you were raised a Christian. Is it fair to say that you are basing your knowledge of other religions on Christianity?

How familiar are you with Island, Hinduism, Buddhism? The Koran reads alot different than the bible and contains "truths" that were published to prove to people of God's existance.

Religion brings hope, comfort and joy to BILLIONS of people around the world. If you cant understand why people put so much faith in something that illicits that kind of response, then clearly you need to talk to these people some more!

PDN

boxclever wrote: »

People dont start religions they follow exising ones.

Which sort of begs the question how the existing ones got there in the first place.

mega man

boxclever wrote: »

I find it hard to believe the amount of intelligent people who still subscribe to religious teachings.

I have no issue with someone having a belief system and praying there is something bigger out there, but, what I find incredible is the faith people place in the different religions. Most people will say they agree with the teaching of whatever religion they are geographically are closest too exept for this or that element.

Why do the still feel the need to be part of a particular religion? Why cant people have their own faith based on their own beleifs

Because the smart ones create religions, the dumb ones follow them. No offence intended.

boxclever

PDN wrote: »

Which sort of begs the question how the existing ones got there in the first place.

But have been distorted since.

Im going to make a presumption that you were raised a Christian. Is it fair to say that you are basing your knowledge of other religions on Christianity?

How familiar are you with Island, Hinduism, Buddhism? The Koran reads alot different than the bible and contains "truths" that were published to prove to people of God's existance.

Religion brings hope, comfort and joy to BILLIONS of people around the world. If you cant understand why people put so much faith in something that illicits that kind of response, then clearly you need to talk to these people some more!

My Wife is a Muslim (or more accuratley comes from a Muslim family/country) and I would be fairly well up on Islam. I was raised a Christian which is part of the problem I have with religions the first response states people with the same beleifs join a religion when in fact most people are born into it.

Also the last line above is another issue I have Religion brings hope, comfort and joy to BILLIONS of people around the world.
I could easily argue religion is the single biggest factor in peoples unhappiness around the world, and kills more people than smoking!!:D

I feel the world would be a better place without religion. Not because the theory behind it isnt sound but because the fighting betwwen the different beleifs causes more harm than good and if it was a case were there was no religious teaching but instead a general acceptance of beleif, we would be much better off

boxclever

robindch wrote: »

Try telling that to a scientologist.

There are far to many Moderators!!

PDN

boxclever wrote: »

Im going to make a presumption that you were raised a Christian. Is it fair to say that you are basing your knowledge of other religions on Christianity?

Ah, look where presumption gets you. Actually I was raised as an atheist.

tunney

faceman wrote: »

Religion brings hope, comfort and joy to BILLIONS of people around the world.

So does heroin, cocaine and other drugs. Millions of people anyways.

boxclever

PDN wrote: »

Ah, look where presumption gets you. Actually I was raised as an atheist.

I never presumed this. Your fellow moderator said this to me and I was quoting him.

Look where failing to read the whole thread gets you

boxclever

tunney wrote: »

So does heroin, cocaine and other drugs. Millions of people anyways.

Were you from Tunney. I havnt met to many people with the same surname as me

PDN

boxclever wrote: »

I never presumed this. Your fellow moderator said this to me and I was quoting him.

Look where failing to read the whole thread gets you

Ha ha, my apologies!:o
Maybe you could use the quote feature when you are quoting others? It helps avoid such confusion.

btw, there's hundreds of moderators on boards.ie. Faceman moderates the drama fora (there's a joke there somewhere, but i can't be bothered trying to think of it.

kelly1

tunney wrote: »

So does heroin, cocaine and other drugs. Millions of people anyways.

Drugs bring hope, comfort and joy??? Sorry for the bluntness but don't you realize the misery drugs cause users?

monosharp

kelly1 wrote: »

Drugs bring hope, comfort and joy??? Sorry for the bluntness but don't you realize the misery drugs cause users?

Don't you realise the misery religion causes many people ?

But yeah drugs are bad.

philologos

monosharp wrote: »

Don't you realise the misery religion causes many people ?

But yeah drugs are bad.

Bad perverted religion causes misery. Honest faith causes fulfillment of life. There is never any need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Turtwig

I don't like the analogy people use of drawing drugs with religion, because some drugs do good. Whether we like it or not religion is part of who we are and how we evolved. To say it wasn't beneficial and comforting is denying history, however to say it is absolute force for good is also denying human history. Human beings are primed to believe and the danger of religion is that it easily takes advantages of that fact. Religion itself can easily take away the fear of death from a human being, that thought scares me every time...
I don't yet know of any drug capable of that.

Turtwig

Jakkass wrote: »

Bad perverted religion causes misery. Honest faith causes fulfillment of life. There is never any need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Just curious, how do you decide what is a bad religion?

monosharp

Jakkass wrote: »

Bad perverted religion causes misery. Honest faith causes fulfillment of life. There is never any need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Firstly I do agree with you more or less.

But. What about for one example, those faith healer people who basically let their daughter die ? Is that honest faith or bad perverted religion ?

monosharp

Malty_T wrote: »

Religion itself can easily take away the fear of death from a human being, that thought scares me every time...
I don't yet know of any drug capable of that.

Me thinks you haven't tried read about the right drugs

Many people die because they're so drugged off their ass they think they're invincible or they simply don't care what happens to them.

philologos

monosharp wrote: »

But. What about for one example, those faith healer people who basically let their daughter die ? Is that honest faith or bad perverted religion ?

Honest faith, on the basis of bad perverted religion they have received.

Turtwig

Jakkass wrote: »

Honest faith, on the basis of bad perverted religion they have received.

So it's both then.
So what exactly is a bad religion then??

wolfsbane

robindch said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxclever
People dont start religions they follow exising ones.

Try telling that to a scientologist.

Or an atheist ( Dawkins variety).

wolfsbane

boxclever wrote: »

I find it hard to believe the amount of intelligent people who still subscribe to religious teachings.

I have no issue with someone having a belief system and praying there is something bigger out there, but, what I find incredible is the faith people place in the different religions. Most people will say they agree with the teaching of whatever religion they are geographically are closest too exept for this or that element.

Why do the still feel the need to be part of a particular religion? Why cant people have their own faith based on their own beleifs

Some do - the leaders of the cults, for example.

But your question, I think, asks why do people accept any religion other than one they have invented themselves. There are many reasons why people may become religious - social standing, economic opportunity, believing it to be a true account of reality, etc.

Those who adopt their own version are in fact doing it for similar reasons.

monosharp

wolfsbane wrote: »

robindch said:

Or an atheist ( Dawkins variety).

Wolfsbane I am honestly curious, is it possible in your mind to have no religion ? Or am I 'religious' no matter what I do ?

wolfsbane

monosharp wrote: »

Wolfsbane I am honestly curious, is it possible in your mind to have no religion ? Or am I 'religious' no matter what I do ?

Hmm. Yes, it's possible to have no religion, if we define religion as a coherent world-view that moves us morally. The utterly selfish brute would be such.

But if religion entails regarding a person as the centre of meaning, then the selfish brute worships himself. He has no other gods before himself.

monosharp

wolfsbane wrote: »

Hmm. Yes, it's possible to have no religion, if we define religion as a coherent world-view that moves us morally. The utterly selfish brute would be such.

Thats nonsense. You are re-defining religion to encompass everyone.

I am not religious, I have no faith science or otherwise.

wolfsbane

monosharp wrote: »

Thats nonsense. You are re-defining religion to encompass everyone.

I am not religious, I have no faith science or otherwise.

Definitions:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion
Note the qualifications I have highlighted:
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Here's it without those: 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe.

My usage actually allowed the last qualification, so:
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

chozometroid

monosharp wrote: »

Thats nonsense. You are re-defining religion to encompass everyone.

I am not religious, I have no faith science or otherwise.

You have no faith in science? So what do you believe and why?

maskofsanity

chozometroid wrote: »

You have no faith in science? So what do you believe and why?

Why "believe"? Is it not much better to think than to believe?

philologos

maskofsanity wrote: »

Why "believe"? Is it not much better to think than to believe?

Belief depends on thought.

maskofsanity

My point there was belief is a bit "extreme" (for lack of a better word) when describing ones opinion.
I feel its much more appropriate to say "I think this" than to say "I believe this" when your an atheist and speaking philosophically about the nature of the universe.

philologos

maskofsanity wrote: »

My point there was belief is a bit "extreme" (for lack of a better word) when describing ones opinion.
I feel its much more appropriate to say "I think this" than to say "I believe this" when your an atheist and speaking philosophically about the nature of the universe.

Belief indicates importance or value.

I would say I believe that Jesus Christ was Crucified and rose again rather than I think, because I believe that Jesus Christ is of crucial importance to my life.

MrPudding

PDN wrote: »

People do have their own faith based on their own beliefs. And when you get a group of people with similar such beliefs we tend to call it a 'religion'.

Is it not a cult, at least initially? I presume all religions started as cults, until they caught sufficient momentum to become mainstream?

MrP

Turtwig

MrPudding wrote: »

Is it not a cult, at least initially? I presume all religions started as cults, until they caught sufficient momentum to become mainstream?

MrP

Depends on who you discuss it with.

Atheists historians will generally say it was a cult and that the authorities simply didn't have the time or resources and didn't really give a damn either way to deal with it, so the ideology grew.

Christian historians argue that it was not a cult because we have multiple sources confirming the same thing and they are reliable - it wasn't a cult it was the truth of new forming religion.

Fanny Cradock

MrPudding wrote: »

Is it not a cult, at least initially? I presume all religions started as cults, until they caught sufficient momentum to become mainstream?

MrP

I'm sure that Christianity was probably considered a cult back in the day. Then again, the word cult didn't necessarily have the pejorative overtones it does now.

maskofsanity

Jakkass wrote: »

Belief indicates importance or value.

I would say I believe that Jesus Christ was Crucified and rose again rather than I think, because I believe that Jesus Christ is of crucial importance to my life.

Why is it though? Why is it so important that you believe thats true? What happens if you find its not true? How can you let something so unlikely and unprovable have such an importance in your life?

Belief indicates you consider something to be definitely true.

faceman

maskofsanity wrote: »

Why is it though? Why is it so important that you believe thats true? What happens if you find its not true? How can you let something so unlikely and unprovable have such an importance in your life?

Belief indicates you consider something to be definitely true.

What business of that though to you or me or anyone else for that matter. As long as that person is happy and not causing harm to others, then why would you believe it to be more important to interfere with his spiritual beliefs?

chozometroid

maskofsanity wrote: »

Why is it though? Why is it so important that you believe thats true? What happens if you find its not true? How can you let something so unlikely and unprovable have such an importance in your life?

Belief indicates you consider something to be definitely true.

It just sounds to me like you want to use "I think" because it's another way of saying, "I'm not sure."

Beliefs are important, because if you don't believe anything, and think everything is unsure, then what if the day comes where you have to decide what you believe?(insert any dramatic scenario here) You will be lost.

Why "believe"? Is it not much better to think than to believe?

I do value the act of thinking and I don't believe that you should believe in something before you think about it. I don't, however, believe that thinking is better than believing, because just thinking results in nothing at all. If you think you can do something, and succeed at doing it, then you must believe that you succeeded, not just think that you did.
In the same way, if you think something is true, and find that it is true to the best of your judgement, then you believe it is true. If you later find out that you were wrong, then you don't have to believe it anymore.
I'm sure some atheists would gladly use "I believe" for some statements as opposed to merely "I think."

You could also throw "feel" into the mix here.


In summary:

Feel: sensory-based
Think: opinion-based
Believe: value-based

philologos

maskofsanity wrote: »

Why is it though? Why is it so important that you believe thats true? What happens if you find its not true? How can you let something so unlikely and unprovable have such an importance in your life?

Belief indicates you consider something to be definitely true.

Jesus Christ is crucially important to me, because He is mercy, and through following Him, I gain new life, my old life and my sins have passed away and I have a new chance to gain a relationship with Him through faith. That's why it is important.

If that isn't true, there is no reason for me to have faith, it is pointless. This hope is what motivates my life, and it's what encourages me to live every day as fully as I can.

No doubt it is the same for other Christians on this forum.

As for being "unlikely, and unprovable", the difference between you and I is that I believe Christianity is very likely it can be backed up with argument. As for unprovable, it's about as unprovable as any other position in respect to God. We don't even intend to prove it, we intend to have reason for why we believe though.

wolfsbane

maskofsanity said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakkass
Belief indicates importance or value.

I would say I believe that Jesus Christ was Crucified and rose again rather than I think, because I believe that Jesus Christ is of crucial importance to my life.
Why is it though? Why is it so important that you believe thats true? What happens if you find its not true? How can you let something so unlikely and unprovable have such an importance in your life?

Belief indicates you consider something to be definitely true.

Yes, Belief indicates you consider something to be definitely true. I do not just think the gospel is probably true - I know it's true.

That's because the Christian has had the truth of God revealed to him by God the Holy Spirit. It is not a matter of comparing religions and choosing the one with most credibility or appeal. The witness to God is seen in the majesty of creation around us; in the voice of conscience within us; and supremely by the word of God.

All of that would never turn a sinful heart, however, without the Spirit confirming it to us. We He speaks, we know it is true.

maskofsanity

faceman wrote: »

What business of that though to you or me or anyone else for that matter. As long as that person is happy and not causing harm to others, then why would you believe it to be more important to interfere with his spiritual beliefs?

Im not interfering im having a discussion in a discussion form.

I'm just interested in religion as a cultural phenomenon. I hold the opinion that its highly unlikely that god exists

maskofsanity

chozometroid wrote: »

It just sounds to me like you want to use "I think" because it's another way of saying, "I'm not sure."

Beliefs are important, because if you don't believe anything, and think everything is unsure, then what if the day comes where you have to decide what you believe?(insert any dramatic scenario here) You will be lost.

I'm not sure is a honest statement when you can't know.
I think saying god definately exists without a shred of evidence is a pretty poor one.

Why do I decide what to believe? My outlook on life is flexible I'm open to new ideas. Just as long as they are fairly sound and based on real facts

chozometroid wrote: »

do value the act of thinking and I don't believe that you should believe in something before you think about it. I don't, however, believe that thinking is better than believing, because just thinking results in nothing at all. If you think you can do something, and succeed at doing it, then you must believe that you succeeded, not just think that you did.
In the same way, if you think something is true, and find that it is true to the best of your judgement, then you believe it is true. If you later find out that you were wrong, then you don't have to believe it anymore.
I'm sure some atheists would gladly use "I believe" for some statements as opposed to merely "I think."

You could also throw "feel" into the mix here.


In summary:

Feel: sensory-based
Think: opinion-based
Believe: value-based

I think there is a difference in believing that you can achieve a goal like winning a poker tournament or something and the belief that the world was created and is being supervised by a supreme being

maskofsanity

wolfsbane wrote: »

maskofsanity said:

Yes, Belief indicates you consider something to be definitely true. I do not just think the gospel is probably true - I know it's true.

That's because the Christian has had the truth of God revealed to him by God the Holy Spirit. It is not a matter of comparing religions and choosing the one with most credibility or appeal. The witness to God is seen in the majesty of creation around us; in the voice of conscience within us; and supremely by the word of God.

All of that would never turn a sinful heart, however, without the Spirit confirming it to us. We He speaks, we know it is true.

Brother, I don't even know how to reply to you.

Your argument is from faith. Which means your untouchable so I'll leave it at that.
Wolfsbane is a cool name though

wolfsbane

maskofsanity wrote: »

Wolfsbane is a cool name though

Thank you. It reflects my pastoral concern.

AudreyHepburn

boxclever wrote: »

I find it hard to believe the amount of intelligent people who still subscribe to religious teachings.

I have no issue with someone having a belief system and praying there is something bigger out there, but, what I find incredible is the faith people place in the different religions. Most people will say they agree with the teaching of whatever religion they are geographically are closest too exept for this or that element.

Why do the still feel the need to be part of a particular religion? Why cant people have their own faith based on their own beleifs

When did anyone ever say you can't believe whatever want? If you don't feel the need for religion in your life so be it, no-one's saying you HAVE to have God/Allah/Yahweh etc in your life.

That being said I don't see any wrong in believing in a higher power either. I'm Catholic myself, believe in God, Jesus etc not because I HAVE to or NEED to but because I WANT to. I wager the fast majority of Catholics I know would say the same.

Why shouldn't people believe if they want to or need to?

I say I believe in God rather than I know he exists. There is a a difference. I don't for definite he exists any more than an athiest knows he doesn't. But I believe he does and I see nothing wrong with phrasing it that way.

Ghost Buster

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

When did anyone ever say you can't believe whatever want? If you don't feel the need for religion in your life so be it, no-one's saying you HAVE to have God/Allah/Yahweh etc in your life.

That being said I don't see any wrong in believing in a higher power either. I'm Catholic myself, believe in God, Jesus etc not because I HAVE to or NEED to but because I WANT to. I wager the fast majority of Catholics I know would say the same.

Why shouldn't people believe if they want to or need to?

I say I believe in God rather than I know he exists. There is a a difference. I don't for definite he exists any more than an athiest knows he doesn't. But I believe he does and I see nothing wrong with phrasing it that way.

Because its mentally unhealthy and delusional?

philologos

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Because its mentally unhealthy and delusional?

Lazy argument, I could claim the same about atheism.

Ghost Buster

Jakkass wrote: »

Lazy argument, I could claim the same about atheism.

Dont do that!! We're both athiests. I just believe in one less god than you. Thats all.

philologos

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Dont do that!! We're both athiests. I just believe in one less god than you. Thats all.

No we aren't.

Atheism = lack of theism

I don't lack theism at any stage even when I regard one belief system above another.