Rip off clare

homer simpson

hi all, this isn't to start a slagging match here but want native clare peoples views on this.

Myself and my girlfriend decided we were going to head down the clare coast to take in the burren ect and head into enis for the night then come up the road this morning. i called into ballyvaughan tourist office as we were ahead of timein an effort to find something to do for a few hours, were told to go to the aillwee cave, took her advice and went there. We were in the Q to get in with a few cars behind us when we were greated by an arragent woman asking for €34 to get in if i could have reversed i back again i would have its an absolute disgrace the price that is charged, to go in and see a very dissapointing cave with nothing exciting in it being given by a tour guide who was vey hard to listen to cos of her americian accent. we then went into the bird of pray exhibit to find 5 of the same type of bird and a few owls and a raven in cages! price is not justified at all it wouldn't even be worth €10 each never mind €17 each.

Then im sure you dont need to be told that the cliffs of moher are a rip off, come up to sleive league the highest sea cliffs in europe free of charge!

Its a lovely county in places but the prices of things are way to expensive i cant help but feel that a tourist comming away from clare would be thinking jes it was expensive. i cant help but feel that with the prices its just pushing tourists away not bringing them in.

Dean , Donegal.

Stuxnet

agreed, its complete rip off, native clare man myself, and have done these trips in the last year,
thats why the country is the way it is, pure greed, squeeze as much as you can from the man,

greed greed greed

Run_to_da_hills

Use to go the Cliffs of Moher regularly until they jacked up fees, haven't bothered returning since, real looses is the coffee shop and restaurant.

ktc1

Yup, did a quick reverse during the summer, when we were quoted €17 each + €10 each for the two kids for a grand total of €54 !! Their website talks about a family ticket "from" €39, but this wasn't mentioned to us at all. Went to Fanore beach for free instead.

Makes the basic Cliffs of Moher car deal of €8 look good by comparison

finbarrk

Ah What are ye ranting about the Cliffs of Moher for? It's only €8 for a car. That could be less than €2 each. FFS if ye consider that expensive ye shouldn't step outside the door.

homer simpson

finbarrk wrote: »

Ah What are ye ranting about the Cliffs of Moher for? It's only €8 for a car. That could be less than €2 each. FFS if ye consider that expensive ye shouldn't step outside the door.

Its expensive when you compair it to prices to access other cliffs is it not? and its 8 for the car park, then you have to pay to get into the visitor centre and then if you want the tour, i can't see how you can defend the prices... must check to see haw much it is into the grand canyon.....

For a 7 day pass its $12 per person or its $25 for a vechicle pass for 7 days! and the cliffs of moher are mickey mouse compaired to grand canyon

Dr Kamikazi

Some nice cliffs in Kilkee, granted not as big as Moher, but free parking and a nice cafe. ALso, I quite like Kilkee in general.
Check out the steamengine in Moyasta, that's quite a blast and the guy who runs it has a thousand and one stories to tell.
Quilty is nice, but you'll have to bring a packed lunch, but no hassle, lovely white beach and quiet.
White Strand is good too and nice walks along some interesting shoreline.
Most of the really nice stuff is off the beaten track, the "main attractions" really are mostly overcrowded, overpriced and it's rules, rules, rules.
At the cliffs you can't even approach the edge anymore, there's a guy WITH A WHISTLE, whisteling at you. Pure Father Ted!
If anyone wants to jump he won't be stopped by a whistle, endresult is that the one thing I liked doing, which was going right to the edge and looking down is now ruined for me.
And don't mind that bleeding heart health and safety sh*t, I'm on a day off and if I want to do something, I'll do it.
Oh, Loop Head at the lighthouse, lovely and spectacular view.
And no bleedin' whistles!

zenmonk

The cliffs at €8 for parking is a rip off - pure and simple, Clare co. co. are crooks. We park beside Considines bar on the hill and walk across the fields to the Cliffs.
€2 - €3 is plenty.

Run_to_da_hills

finbarrk wrote: »

Ah What are ye ranting about the Cliffs of Moher for? It's only €8 for a car. That could be less than €2 each. FFS if ye consider that expensive ye shouldn't step outside the door.

Its bloody expensive for locals that used to use the place on a regular basis. Thats E8 per person on their own or E4 a couple. It was bad enough being over charged for coffee and snacks. In surprised that they don't charge extra for dogs.

I was shocked to see traffic wardens ticketing cars at a disused lay by about half a mile up the road. There are plenty of other places in the county that are FOC that would surpass this as a choice on a Sunday.

loctite

Dr Kamikazi wrote: »

Pure Father Ted!

ha ha ... it is too.

It is way over priced... but still Moher (I think!) have still announced that they have made losses of 200K this year. Is it the costs of doing business in Ireland?

Not to try and defend these people but, a lot of these facilties, as you well know in West Clare are seasonal, and IMO they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. What I mean by this is if they try to make money, (by charging higher prices) they upset their customers, If they don't charge enough and make losses, they have to be constantly bailed out by Co.Council grants etc and become a drain on local government coffers and our taxes.

For example; Pools in Kilkee and Lahinch are constantly making losses and are always having to be bailed out. These businesses need to charge high prices to survive. The other side of the coin is to shut them down and add to the live register.

IMO our wages drive prices up. Some people say leccy bill do, but when you have the average wage of cica 130K in Poolbeg and Kilrush, I'm not surprised the ESB rates are so high... Three cheers to the unions!!!

Dr Kamikazi

I liked the cliffs they way they used to be, a lot more accessible and less bullsh1t.
They're trying to make something out of not exactly nothing, but it just reminds you of a fairground attraction, just missing the candy floss salesmen.
A nice touch are the enormous
KEEP OUT PRIVATE PROPERTY NO PUBLIC PATH DANGEROUS KEEP TO THE CAFÉ AREA WHERE YOU CAN GIVE US MONEY LIKE A GOOD LITTLE BOY HOW DARE YOU TRY TO ENJOY ANYTHING FOR FREE
signs.
There should be walkways, not just at the cliffs, but connecting the cliffs, Doolin, Lahinch and the Burren in general.
But of course we don't want smelly unwashed hikers with no money.
We want rich yanks that stay in Dromoland, play golf, eat out, hire cars and generally throw a lot of money around.
It's this "ah jaysus, you wouldn't do noti'in' round here wit' no money" attitude that really goes down well with most European tourists and (letting you in on a secret) the yanks are catching on.
A lot of tourist attractions seem to operate on the "one born every minute" and "sure there's plenty more where he came from" and "give me your money, now f*ck off" principle.
There are plenty of places where you can get your kicks for free , but you have to know them.
The rest are nothing more than tourist traps, need I even mention Bunratty?

Harpic

Visiting the Cliffs Of Moher is the biggest rip off.The money is used by Clare County council goes to fund their junkets abroad which they are famous for.
Went to see the Twelve Apostles in Australia.They had a big carpark there opposite along with a visitors centre .
All for the cost of $0

celliman

go to kilkee the cliffs there are spectacular nice walkways and a cafe all free

buck65

The reason the Cliffs lost money is beacause they build these big "interpretative centres" with their cafes and restaurants and toilet facilities - fair enough, then they staff them, probably paying too much to staff and with too many employees in off season etc. Then they build a big car park and screw the customer to pay for all the above!
It is all great economics until the customer decides to go elsewhere where they are not screwed and appreciated.
Then they lose money and to pay for the loss the taxpayer comes in and some wise old sage will say ...
Ok we had 100,000 customers last year who paid an average of €8 for parking , €3 for coffee and scone yielding €1.1m in sales. We lost €200,000 so next year we will ...charge €10 for parking and €3.50 for coffee and scone and make a good profit.
:rolleyes:
plus we are losing about 11% a year in foreign tourists

Jim Martin

buck65 wrote: »

The reason the Cliffs lost money is beacause they build these big "interpretative centres" with their cafes and restaurants and toilet facilities - fair enough, then they staff them, probably paying too much to staff and with too many employees in off season etc. Then they build a big car park and screw the customer to pay for all the above!
It is all great economics until the customer decides to go elsewhere where they are not screwed and appreciated.
Then they lose money and to pay for the loss the taxpayer comes in and some wise old sage will say ...
Ok we had 100,000 customers last year who paid an average of €8 for parking , €3 for coffee and scone yielding €1.1m in sales. We lost €200,000 so next year we will ...charge €10 for parking and €3.50 for coffee and scone and make a good profit.
:rolleyes:
plus we are losing about 11% a year in foreign tourists

The local press recently reported that the Cliffs staff were faced with either losing jobs or taking less money so, after days of meetings, the staff agreed to work less hours. The whole country needs to bring down the cost of living in order to make it internationally competitive, this means lower VAT, lower wages, therefore lower prices - until that happens, the downwards spiral will continue. Many people keep saying the country lacks leadership although it continues to bale out the banks which are still paying out obscene amounts of money to their "fat cats"! We desperately need to get out of this vicious circle, at the moment, we just seem to be re-arranging the deckchairs on the deck of the sinking 'Titanic'!

Teadrinker

Seems the staff's three day week,which they will be on till February or so, means an 18% paycut. Like most Clare people I regularly bring visitors and family from abroad to the cliffs about 4 of 5 times a year but this year only had cause to go once. I hated the idea of the new centre, having grown up going there when there was no staff and my brothers and I had the usual great fun hiding on the edge levels and waiting till the parents were hoarse from calling us and reduced to praying hysterically to God, before we came out of hiding. (Odd that they brought us so regularly). But the new centre is impressive, great for overseas visitors and kids and good for something to do there when the weather's bad or clouds are obscuring the view. The cost is significant but, to be honest, I would, in the good old pre recession days, regularly end up wasting more in the Rock Shop in Liscannor on bits of blingy rock nick nacks and coffee. Would be good if there was a loyalty card system for repeat visitors to the cliffs within a yearly period. Would keep the Clare people, who bring loads of their visitors there, sweet.

ollaetta

Totally agree re entrance fees but it's not just in Clare. Visited St. Patrick's Catherdral in Dublin recently and the entry fee was €5.50 a head. When I'm abroad I usually have a gander at catherdrals etc. and have rarely had to pay anything more than a voluntary donation.

At a loose end on the Bank Holiday weekend I went down to the Bunratty Folk Park with the OH. I nearly gagged at being asked for €33 for the two of us! Crazy stuff altogether.

loctite

buck65 wrote: »

The reason the Cliffs lost money is beacause they build these big "interpretative centres" with their cafes and restaurants and toilet facilities - fair enough, then they staff them, probably paying too much to staff and with too many employees in off season etc. Then they build a big car park and screw the customer to pay for all the above!
It is all great economics until the customer decides to go elsewhere where they are not screwed and appreciated.

Perhaps the interpretive centre is overkill but the building of these centres do not solely account for the loss. The costs of these centres would be allocated over the useful economic life of the asset, so would probably not be the major contribution in the loss, plus this figure can be manipulated so as reduce losses.

And enough with the screwing already!! You'd swear there was a porn show on the cliffs.

Incase some of you are unaware parking rates elsewhere in this country aren't cheap either. I went to Limerick last week and payed 9.50 in car parking. I was also in Cork for less than 4 hours and I was charged something similar. Nobody is required to use the visitors centre, or to buy coffee or a scone... and if you feel the prices are too high, bring a flask.

As for the staffing levels, there is something that is becoming increasingly rare in this country and even more so on the west coast of Ireland, employment. So if this centre is having to hike up prices to provide some, well I'd rather see higher prices IMO.

Lets hope that nobody feels that the services/ products you provide Buck65 are over priced and see that you become surplus to requirements.

buck65

All very well loctite but my point is - lowering the price sometimes brings in increased business! Something half the country seem to be ignorant of.

murraymarmalade

rip of clare contd

templegate hotel 2.65 for a 200ml bottle of coke.good god how is this place still open,once bitten twice shy in my case.:mad:

finbarrk

zenmonk wrote: »

The cliffs at €8 for parking is a rip off - pure and simple, Clare co. co. are crooks. We park beside Considines bar on the hill and walk across the fields to the Cliffs.
€2 - €3 is plenty.

Jesus ye are a great help to the economy. For the sake of the price of 2 pints ye walk across other peoples land presumably without permission.
And I guess Considines Bar don't score out of ye either.

blueshark22

homer_simpson wrote: »

hi all, this isn't to start a slagging match here but want native clare peoples views on this.

Myself and my girlfriend decided we were going to head down the clare coast to take in the burren ect and head into enis for the night then come up the road this morning. i called into ballyvaughan tourist office as we were ahead of timein an effort to find something to do for a few hours, were told to go to the aillwee cave, took her advice and went there. We were in the Q to get in with a few cars behind us when we were greated by an arragent woman asking for €34 to get in if i could have reversed i back again i would have its an absolute disgrace the price that is charged, to go in and see a very dissapointing cave with nothing exciting in it being given by a tour guide who was vey hard to listen to cos of her americian accent. we then went into the bird of pray exhibit to find 5 of the same type of bird and a few owls and a raven in cages! price is not justified at all it wouldn't even be worth €10 each never mind €17 each.

Then im sure you dont need to be told that the cliffs of moher are a rip off, come up to sleive league the highest sea cliffs in europe free of charge!

Its a lovely county in places but the prices of things are way to expensive i cant help but feel that a tourist comming away from clare would be thinking jes it was expensive. i cant help but feel that with the prices its just pushing tourists away not bringing them in.

Dean , Donegal.

Hey Dean
Myself and two pals went to ailwee caves 3/4 years ago purely for something to do on a sunday and we were all students at the time, i honestly can't remember the cost but none of us were put out by it so it mustn't have been too bad then... i also remember having a great time there so .... maybe it's just my own thoughts on it .... id a great time anyway and as for moher .... ya agree the parking charge is probably ridiculous but jes*s the view, i've been all over the world and there is nowhere else id rather look out onto .... my view ... its biased but ... my view

loctite

buck65 wrote: »

All very well loctite but my point is - lowering the price sometimes brings in increased business! Something half the country seem to be ignorant of.

Or may serve to reduce revenues even further, like you stated previously. Tourist figures down 11%, how will dropping prices get them out of a hole?? Also depends on elasticities of demand. If less revenue will flow toward the centre, how is that going to help? You can't blame Irelands prices for dropping tourist figures. Of course it doesn't help, but most of the western world is or has been in recession for the last 2 years, surely this contributes for a drop in numbers too.

I take your point. But it is not that straight forward. I know a certain facility which has dropped its prices by 15% in the last two season and has now a gapping hole in its accounts to fill. And STILL customers complain about high prices.

I still maintain that we have high prices because the cost of labour and services and it is because of these high costs that you and I have money in our pockets, because we the labour force are part of the problem. You may argue that private sector wages are falling and that these price changes should be passed on to the consumer but tax charges will only maintain prices high. Vicious circle

DanGlee

OK, this is coming from a totally naive non-native, who has never been to the cliffs, but, what is there to charge for? Its a cliff face? How much can they hide it that you need to go to a certain special €8 spot to see it? Can't you walk/drive along the road and view it in its almighty splendor from a distance?

It does sound like a total rip

loctite

DanGlee wrote: »

OK, this is coming from a totally naive non-native, who has never been to the cliffs, but, what is there to charge for? Its a cliff face? How much can they hide it that you need to go to a certain special €8 spot to see it? Can't you walk/drive along the road and view it in its almighty splendor from a distance?

It does sound like a total rip

you will have to go visit so to find out for yourself!!

buck65

You can't really see it from the roadside though.
It's probably worth it to see it once, it just puts off the repeat business by charging so much.
I live in Ennis and in the past would visit the Cliffs 3/4 times a year. I have been twice in the past few years since the carpark charges went high.

BLITZ_Molloy

loctite wrote: »

And enough with the screwing already!! You'd swear there was a porn show on the cliffs.

Considering the losses the venue is sustaining I don't think we should rule anything out at this stage.

Mr. Presentable

DanGlee wrote: »

OK, this is coming from a totally naive non-native, who has never been to the cliffs, but, what is there to charge for? Its a cliff face? How much can they hide it that you need to go to a certain special €8 spot to see it? Can't you walk/drive along the road and view it in its almighty splendor from a distance?

It does sound like a total rip

The €8.00 is for the parking.

Outrageous nonetheless.

homer simpson

I honestly can't see how or even why people are comming here to defend the price's! Them caves are mostly manmade i've been told since iv been down, and they are bumming away about it being a great natural sight! And the caves they are anice sight yes but honestly its not the most spetacular thing ever seen, i mean the giants causway is better than it in terms of places you have to pay to get into and its a steal at £0!!!! its listed in the top ten free places to visit, which is a slight lie though as you have to pay the C.C. for the car park and to get the bus to the exhibit but id recomend walking as its not that far and its a nice walk, but if you.

And then there are loads of places to visit for free that are more spectacular than the cliffs and caves put together IMO, you have (see first picture) knockalla hill looking down on stoker strand from the side of the road,walking on this beach is brillient, and you then have sleive league (picture two) the highest sea cliffs! and you can walk right across the top ot the cliff just ask bear grills, the lying cheating fool:rolleyes:, below are 2 picutres ive taken at the above locations with a small digital camera so the pics aint great but will give you an idea! My point is how is the prices charges in clare justified? when you can get the above for free???

Precious flower

I know it's ridiculous, they destroyed it with the building they added on to it. It was beautiful just the way it was. They made it look tacky.

Dr Kamikazi

loctite wrote: »

Or may serve to reduce revenues even further, like you stated previously. Tourist figures down 11%, how will dropping prices get them out of a hole?? Also depends on elasticities of demand. If less revenue will flow toward the centre, how is that going to help? You can't blame Irelands prices for dropping tourist figures. Of course it doesn't help, but most of the western world is or has been in recession for the last 2 years, surely this contributes for a drop in numbers too.

I take your point. But it is not that straight forward. I know a certain facility which has dropped its prices by 15% in the last two season and has now a gapping hole in its accounts to fill. And STILL customers complain about high prices.

Maybe their finances would be down even further had they kept their prices or even increased them.
The problem here is the way profits are calculated:

If I sell a bun for 50 cent, I make 20 cent profit.
If I sell a bun for one Euro, I make 70 cent profit.
We'll darn me, if I now charge 5 Euro for this bun, I WILL MAKE 4.70 PROFIT!
Well darn me, that's what I do! Hey, where did all my customers go? Bloody recession, it's all the recession's fault!
Ireland during the boom had lotto syndrome, I'll have that, that, that and that, that, how much is...oh never mind and I'll have that and that...
And the guy could get away with selling scones for a fiver, cause the worker could then say "Me need money" and get a raise, the scones would go up...
THAT is called inflation, Ireland doesn't have high prices and wages, we have simply levelled out at a plateau where it is no longer sensible for the rest of the world to do business with us because everything here is silly money.
If we didn't have the Euro, the Irish Pound would have gone the way of the Italian Lira and your scone would now cost 1245543456543234543 Pound.
And if we don't do something drastic (and I'm talking everyone getting 20-30% less pay) that's the way we'll go.

drumaneen

This is all a sorry tale of woeful attractions in Clare, my home county (the Tunnel of Goats Syndrome (viz-a-viz Father Ted))

but I still want to add The Vandeleur Walled Garden;

described as "Once the forgotten garden of Kilrush House, home to the Vandeleur landlords, this garden has been redesigned for the 21st Century around the old path system. Beautifully constructed old stonewalls still surround the garden and it specialises in many unusual and tender plants that thrive in the area's uniquely western latitude microclimate"

Potentialy a classic Victorian walled garden setting with greenhouses etc in which to develop and display how such Big House gardens worked and also an opportunity for gardening archeology and horticultural instruction and production - all it needed was faithful RESTORATION; but the eejits created a tiny municipal park, mainly lawn and threw in a few sculptures (of the local 'hippy artist' kind). Sure there is a smattering of exotics in lip service to the local climate ....

For this they Charge 5 Euro/adult. We was around it in 10 minutes I swear to God we didn't miss anything. I felt mugged -- and terrifically embarassed cos we took American visitors with us who were equally stunned at the lack of amenity and engagement of what is there.

Any City Park is likely to be bigger, better and ABSOLUTELY FREE!

The unblinking nerve of all of these places in what they charge is quite breathtaking.

buck65

Homer , I was at the causeway recently and the car park is £6 so what you say is not entirely true. Of course you can park in the hotel nearby for free. Unlike the Cliffs where apart from a few gateways there is no alternative.

homer simpson

I didn't think it was that dear, i thought it was £3, obhiously i was wrong then so, how much was the bus do you remember? very little info online about priceing.

Teadrinker

http://www.giantscausewaycentre.com

Under section on Visitor Services



Audio-Visual Presentation: Adult £1.00, Child 50p, Family £2.50.
Groups: Adult 80p, Child 40p
Car park: Cars £6.00 (All day parking) Coaches £20.00; Mini-coach £7.50; Campervans £7.50
Causeway Coaster minibus: Adult return £2 Child return £1

buck65

homer_simpson wrote: »

I didn't think it was that dear, i thought it was £3, obhiously i was wrong then so, how much was the bus do you remember? very little info online about priceing.

Ya lazy git, half the fun is trying not to fall down that mad steep hill on the way down and dealing with the oxygen debt and lactic acid on the way back up!

monkeypants

Go north and see the Marble Arch caves in Fermanagh and the Giant's Causeway. I've seen the Cliffs of Moher, but I didn't pay for it.

Mcloke

murraymarmalade wrote: »

rip of clare contd

templegate hotel 2.65 for a 200ml bottle of coke.good god how is this place still open,once bitten twice shy in my case.:mad:

As a non drinking who would order a pint of 7-up etc I can confirm that I have very rarely paid less than €5 in Clare and other counties in hotels, bars, restaurants etc. The most expensive I can remember was €6 and we wonder why the country has a drink driving problem?!?

Now in saying that I have lived in Clare nearly 6 years and agree that it rips off people totally at tourist attraction in particular. The Cliffs can complain about a loss but if they didn't charge so much they would get more regular local visitors who just don't go anymore and what is more having been there recently I was horrified to see the state of the car park considering they are charging €8 to park your car it was full of massive pot holes! They wonder why the tourist numbers are down....it is just too expensive.

Mcloke

Teadrinker wrote: »

Seems the staff's three day week,which they will be on till February or so, means an 18% paycut.

Ah yes but it is not like taking an 18% paycut as you can claim the dole for your two days and do what you like with your time. An 18% paycut involves working the same hours as before but simply for less money

Mcloke

buck65 wrote: »

You can't really see it from the roadside though.
It's probably worth it to see it once, it just puts off the repeat business by charging so much.
I live in Ennis and in the past would visit the Cliffs 3/4 times a year. I have been twice in the past few years since the carpark charges went high.

Ditto

luap_42

There are quite a few ways around paying the official car park fees.

Don't pay for parking when I go there myself, or pay for anything in the tourist trap. You can walk in free to the cliffs and visitor centre and shops.

The council in all their absurd corruption has put double yellow lines half a mile in each direction on both sides of the road from the main entrance. One nearby layby which used to be parked in a couple of years ago, has been filled with earth by the council recently to prevent people from escaping the car park.

If you are an outdoor person, you'll find a way to avoid the car park.

loctite

luap_42 wrote: »

The council in all their absurd corruption has put double yellow lines half a mile in each direction on both sides of the road from the main entrance.

C'mon now in fairness... I have never been one to defend the co.council, but the road is fairly narrow, and if everyone parked on it, it would be chaos especially for the locals....

But yes believe council are corrupt and are being bought off by big business such as the golf course in Doonbeg when they are voting to close off public access with out waiting for a judicial review......

luap_42

loctite wrote: »

C'mon now in fairness... I have never been one to defend the co.council, but the road is fairly narrow, and if everyone parked on it, it would be chaos especially for the locals....

But yes believe council are corrupt and are being bought off by big business such as the golf course in Doonbeg when they are voting to close off public access with out waiting for a judicial review......

True, but they still dumped earth in the natural layby north of the main entrance to prevent people from parking there.

Don't talk to me about Doonbeg. Been surfing there since 1984.

Dune systems are protected environments that are not supposed to be developed, but maintained, protected and managed.

So what do CCC do? Allow big American money to build a golf course right across the entire dune system, and a disgusting eyesore four storey hotel (which only had permission for two storeys), but no enforcement taken. The same "planner" then allows a whole sh1tload of houses to be built alongside the dunes. Eyesore is to good a word for the farce. Found out that the "planner" who "granted" both permissions is now the area enforcement officer with CCC.

Corrupt? Definitely. Imagine how much money CCC made out of that one.

Flan45

Ah get off your high horse, 99% of the locals are delighted that the golf course is there. It created jobs in the construction phase and continues to now that it's up and running. As much care as possible was taken not to disturb the dunes, the developers had to obtain planning like any other person would.

If you have evidence of the corruption you speak of then spit it out otherwise zip it.

zenmonk

I saw a CCC planner wearing a big fur coat and had a crown on cycling down the street the other day.
Looked fairly dodge:D

luap_42

Flan45 wrote: »

Ah get off your high horse, 99% of the locals are delighted that the golf course is there. It created jobs in the construction phase and continues to now that it's up and running. As much care as possible was taken not to disturb the dunes, the developers had to obtain planning like any other person would.

If you have evidence of the corruption you speak of then spit it out otherwise zip it.

Listen sunshine, I have plenty of evidence of planning corruption in CCC. It is endemic. All you need to do is check their own planning files. See how politicians (local, T.D and ministers) interfere with what should be straightforward planning and reverse proper planning. See how the planners follow the money first and development plan and planning rules second or not at all if it conflicts with money or politics.

Regarding Doonbeg, all you have to do is check the planning files. They were given permission for a two storey hotel(maximum they could get away with), as that was all that was allowed by the council, they built three and a half storeys, then applied for retention, then the council allowed it, no enforcement, no problem. Why? Development contribution to CCC, local politicians, jobs. Proper planning goes out the door. Environment although protected in development plan is completely ignored by CCC.

As far as I'm concerned those officials should be in jail for making these decisions and ignorning development plan policy. To make things even worse, they then build the second eyesore in the same environment, a massive block of holiday homes, completely out of place, and at the same time no local person can get permission for a single house anywhere outside a town! That is corruption by any definition of the word. Same planner gave permission, although decision is made by consensus meeting in the planning department. Development plans are there for a reason. If you don't know why, then don't even think about commenting.

As for everything else, they are open and current and until they are closed I'm saying nothing to the likes of you.

Regarding locals. F%^k them. I have two friends working there. They can travel for jobs like everyone else who has the type of job that the golf course/hotel provides. That does not absolve wrecking the dune system, and putting two large built eyesores in this environment. If you don't know the value of this type of environment, then you should check it first before you make crass comments. You obviously know nothing about planning.

You are the kind who doesn't care about proper planning at all, as long as there is money in it. You and your kind have proper f&*^d this country, and believe me sunshine, you will find me standing in your way every time.

Flan45

If you have all this evidence then why don't you load your files into the back of your station wagon and give them to the relevant authorities. I'm not aware of any CCC employee currently up on corruption charges, do you make a habit of making baseless accusations?

Correct me if I'm wrong but under our planning laws there is nothing to stop someone from applying for retention. It happens in every county in Ireland. I'm sure the golf course made their case and it was accepted.

As far as the second development being an eyesore that's your opinion and your welcome to it, we're not living in North Korea so I think I'm entitled to disagree with you.

Regarding locals not being able to get planning out side of a town that's complete rubbish, you only have to drive around the locality to see the amount of one off houses built over the last 10 years. I know a number of locals who have built, some had no problem getting planning and some had great difficulty.

If you had your way we'd still be living in tents knocking two pieces of flint together and walking 5 miles to the nearest well to get a bucket of water.

zenmonk

Lads ye're both right in a way. Some of the CCC planners are no doubt doing their best to follow the guidelines but there are a hell of alot of dodgy things going on too. Building on flood plains on the Quin Rd is one for instance.
I know a CCC planner who was very strict on planning, since moved on, who was regularly badgered and bullied by builders and individuals. She never accepted a bribe but led me to believe it could be something that could be offered on occasion.
This planner was not liked by the builder obviously. Just saying there are good ones out there as well but yeah some of the things that have happened in Clare over the past 15 years are baffling.

luap_42

Flan45 wrote: »

If you have all this evidence then why don't you load your files into the back of your station wagon and give them to the relevant authorities. I'm not aware of any CCC employee currently up on corruption charges, do you make a habit of making baseless accusations?.

I take it you drive a statiowagon then. The CCC operates technically inside the law, but not as the law was originally intended in the 2000 planning & development act. They also operate outside their own development plan. Why? Because the law will not stop them. John Gormley has amended the planning act this year and this will shortly become law and stop their activities. If you want to see how the Royal Institue of Architects of Ireland rate CCC as having worst local authority planning decisions in the country: http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/07/17/story67524.asp

Flan45 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but under our planning laws there is nothing to stop someone from applying for retention. It happens in every county in Ireland. I'm sure the golf course made their case and it was accepted.

I'm correcting you. You are wrong. That is precisely what the 2000 planning & development act did (make retention illegal), but certain judiciary interprete the exact wording to allow retention, hence the plugging of this loophole this year, shortly to become law. Not before time. Retention is a joke and should not be allowed, except for MINOR ACCIDENTAL infractions. That is what will be the case once the 2009 amendments are enacted. It took them 8 years to plug the loophole, because Gormley is now in a position of more bargaining power with FF.

Flan45 wrote: »

As far as the second development being an eyesore that's your opinion and your welcome to it, we're not living in North Korea so I think I'm entitled to disagree with you.

It's not an opinion. All development plans prescribe against building large buildings in untouched areas. Previous to Doonbeg Golf Club there were only a handful of houses in the entire strech of land behind the dunes. Development is supposed to be connected to towns with infrastructure according to their own development policies.

Flan45 wrote: »

Regarding locals not being able to get planning out side of a town that's complete rubbish, you only have to drive around the locality to see the amount of one off houses built over the last 10 years. I know a number of locals who have built, some had no problem getting planning and some had great difficulty.

True some locals get permission outside of towns, but ALL large developments that bring in money to CCC will get permission no matter where they are. In every case. CCC turns down no-one with large wads of cash. That is not planning, it is systemic corruption.

Flan45 wrote: »

If you had your way we'd still be living in tents knocking two pieces of flint together and walking 5 miles to the nearest well to get a bucket of water.

Not at all. There is a right way and a wrong way to allow planning. Most decisions are not controversial, they are straightforward, but can be influenced by politicians (with a contribution to the party) and money (development contribution into CCC's coffers). Only in Ireland do we allow politicians and money to intervene in proper planning. Elsewhere in Europe there is no controversy, since all the work is done by planners, no appeals, no breaking laws, everyone knows where they stand.

finbarrk

The majority of locals have nothing against the Golf Club, it's a positive thing in the area. And it's a fine building also.

Flan45

Luap, I agree with alot of what you say.

Retention would be fine if it wasn't abused, anyway it's academic now if what you say is correct and the loop hole is to be closed.

I just took issue with what I perceived was you brushing every planner with the same brush, for all those that are easily influenced there are many that are trying to do the job in what is, at the moment anyway a flawed system.