Hiring females over males for "diversity" - legal/ethical?

waitinforatrain

I received this email a few hours ago from Microsoft:

“Techie Girls” Event 2009


As part of our overall Diversity strategy this year we are committed to hiring Females in technology into our Graduate roles. We understand that the number of females in technology courses is low so we thought a specific event targeting females would be something tangible Microsoft could do to encourage Females to apply to our programme. I’ve gotten feedback from our current Interns and Graduates on what an event should encompass. Based on their feedback, the agenda will generally cover the following:
·Overview of why we invited them – Diversity and it’s important to our business, discuss low numbers of females in CS, etc.
·Technology Demo’s – Surface, Windows 7, PhotoSynth
·Tips & Tricks for MS technical Interviews - Interview workshop
·Talks from women in tech at Microsoft and a Microsoft senior leader
·Exposure to the MS culture – Tours of the facility, talks from grads/current interns, our work environment
·Free stuff – notebooks, Games, Windows 7
·Lunch and “networking” event where the students can talk with some of the speakers casually over lunch

I'm a final year college student and am absolutely gobsmacked that this is even legal, let alone ethical. The email is signed by the senior HR recruiter for Ireland, i.e. this girl will probably be doing the interviews. This event includes an interview workshop, and it seems I'm not invited to hear this inside info that may help me get a graduate job with Microsoft.

Am I the only one who believes that people should be hired on their ability to do the job? There are few girls in my (engineering) course, but they're just as technically capable as the lads, and this bull**** email is both insulting to females and unfair to males.

jhegarty

No way it's legal.

jaffa20

waitinforatrain wrote: »

I received this email a few hours ago from Microsoft:



I'm a final year college student and am absolutely gobsmacked that this is even legal, let alone ethical. The email is signed by the senior HR recruiter for Ireland, i.e. this girl will probably be doing the interviews. This event includes an interview workshop, and it seems I'm not invited to hear this inside info that may help me get a graduate job with Microsoft.

Am I the only one who believes that people should be hired on their ability to do the job? There are few girls in my (engineering) course, but they're just as technically capable as the lads, and this bull**** email is both insulting to females and unfair to males.

I agree. They are trying to promote equality but by employing females over males by a decision based on sexuality is in turn actually inequal and sexist.

magma69

It is similar to the U.S except with black people replaced for women. It is absolutely nuts. I agree it is patronising to women/black people and uses discrimination to try eradicate discrimination . People should be picked for a job on the basis of their ability, gender/race or anything else should not be a factor. What kind of a free society is it where people get dibs for these insane reasons?:mad:

28064212

waitinforatrain wrote: »

...something tangible Microsoft could do to encourage Females to apply to our programme

Most important line in the piece. They're encouraging more women to apply, not saying that they will hire a woman over a less qualified man. There's nothing discriminatory about that

Royale with Cheese

Hmmm, I'm off to buy a wig and some makeup.

Need job

waitinforatrain

28064212 wrote: »

Most important line in the piece. They're encouraging more women to apply, not saying that they will hire a woman over a less qualified man. There's nothing discriminatory about that

I noticed that too, but the rest of it doesn't hold up to that idea ("·Tips & Tricks for MS technical Interviews - Interview workshop ", "·Lunch and “networking” event")

jhegarty, is that "no way, it's legal" or "there's no way it's legal"?

jhegarty

waitinforatrain wrote: »

I noticed that too, but the rest of it doesn't hold up to that idea ("·Tips & Tricks for MS technical Interviews - Interview workshop ", "·Lunch and “networking” event")

jhegarty, is that "no way, it's legal" or "there's no way it's legal"?

It's not legal.

Two people will turn up for an interview next year. One had tips (because of their sex) , the other won't.

axer

Of course it is legal. MS are not saying they only hire women what they are saying is that there are so few women out there that they want to give them a helping hand by showing them its a nice place/field to work in. It is an event - not an interview.

It is good to have diversity in places like MS especially when it comes to genders because, for example, a large section of MS's market is female thus they need a female input into things. At the end of the day it will be the most qualified that will be selected but MS want to encourage females to give it everything.

That's my understanding from reading it anyway.

seamus

28064212 wrote: »

Most important line in the piece. They're encouraging more women to apply, not saying that they will hire a woman over a less qualified man. There's nothing discriminatory about that

jhegarty wrote: »

It's not legal.

Two people will turn up for an interview next year. One had tips (because of their sex) , the other won't.

What they're doing is perfectly legal.

They're holding a private event for women to attend. That's perfectly legal.

If you can later prove that someone got a job over a man because they're female, then it's illegal. But simply encouraging more women to apply for jobs by holding a private event, is not itself illegal.

cruizer101

I hate stuff like this, its all legal, you can be sure Microsoft would make sure of that.

I remember there was a grant available in 4th year Engineering only for girls in order to encourage them into this field.
Its silly if girls don't want to do something so what do you really want to draw in women who don't really like it and are just doing it because being given an advantage.
There is no similar incentave schemes to encourage men into nursing or primary teaching.

Eoin

If it is just a case of trying to get a 50/50 mix of genders as far as the interview stage, then I don't really have a problem with it - once that's as far as it goes.

I absolutely hate the idea of quotas, unless there's a genuine need to get a balance for business reasons - e.g. like axer said, if a female candidate would be preferable to get closer to the female market, then fair enough.

the_syco

Meh. Positive discrimination.

If MS wants to be able to say "X amount of or techies/code monkeys/lebrats are female" they must have a percentage of females working in that section.

If they interview both men and women, and have a series of tests, but did it in a way that women would more likely pass (due to the way that womens brains perform differently than men), there's not much you can do about it.

doctor evil

Why not refer to them as women instead of girls?

It's an event, not an interview.

speedboatchase

"Techie Girls"

That reads like something from the 1950s, I was all ready to be outraged reading this thread but instead its just laughable nonsense. The "tips n tricks" part is worthy of taking a bit of umbrage however

amen

black people replaced for women

not really the same.

certain industries, trades etc in the USA had low participation by blacks and the law was passed to encourge greater black participation. Some states had high percentages of black people but no black civil servants even when there were black candidates that were more suited then white

kmick

*Technology Demo’s – Surface, Windows 7, PhotoSynth

I can see a lot of women going just for these*












*sarcasm monitor explodes and catches fire, burning small dog

The_Conductor

Free notebooks etc- might be a runner.....

craichoe

.......runs off to storm an ann summers party ....

Thoie

I have to say, I can't stand "positive discrimination", but there's nothing illegal about the event itself. I've worked in companies that have held "women's events" from time to time. They've always puzzled me. I remember one about 6 years ago which was a networking lunch for women. From my own observations I'd say the majority of women don't "network" the way men do, so an explanation of how men do it might be a good thing, but I think putting a whole bunch of women into a weird social gathering won't help much. It would be far more useful to have a mixed gender presentation, showing how men do it, and then how women do it, followed by some general mingling.

The_Conductor

Men networking?
Normally the main source of networking is taking the piss out of whichever football team your colleague might follow while on coffee break- or slagging off each others driving/car/dress sense etc......

Just how do you imagine men 'network'?

In my office- the women are far more likely to meetup after work for drinks, discuss social and family events- or just discuss whatever is on TV than guys ever do....... surely this is a greater source of cohension and bonding- or networking- than the often not so friendly rivalry of the male cohort......??

Stheno

smccarrick wrote: »

In my office- the women are far more likely to meetup after work for drinks, discuss social and family events- or just discuss whatever is on TV than guys ever do....... surely this is a greater source of cohension and bonding- or networking- than the often not so friendly rivalry of the male cohort......??

I'd tend to agree tbh, I work in an IT team of 21 and am the only female at the moment.

When I socialise with the likes of girl geeks (an organisation for women who work in IT) there tends to be a fairly broad area of discussion from work to social to family issues, whilst in work, and socially at work the topics would be as smaccarrick suggests.

However, by far my favourite networking events to attend are those focussed on my specialisation with a decent mix of men and women, where one can feel comfortable talking to people who share a common interest.

Thoie

smccarrick wrote: »

Men networking?
Normally the main source of networking is taking the piss out of whichever football team your colleague might follow while on coffee break- or slagging off each others driving/car/dress sense etc......
...
In my office- the women are far more likely to meetup after work for drinks, discuss social and family events- or just discuss whatever is on TV than guys ever do

Precisely - women may not be aware that laughing at your colleague's football team is a good way to make something happen, while men may not be aware that taking an interest in some **** soap opera could be useful at times.

Which leads on to...

nouggatti wrote: »

However, by far my favourite networking events to attend are those focussed on my specialisation with a decent mix of men and women, where one can feel comfortable talking to people who share a common interest.

Events that are set up purely for "networking" are a bit crap. As Nougatti has pointed out, finding some common ground, be it the intricacies of Router(config)#enable secret everyone_will_know_by_lunchtime or discussions on the latest implementation of MS Project Server are far more useful than a gender specific lunch meeting where the only thing you have in common is a vagina.

CathyMoran

Im a female engineer working in IT and I found the whole thing patronising at best, I would rather be hired for my competence than gender.

Monkey61

I'm usually the first to complain about things being patronising to women but I don't see a problem with that. Women tend, implicitly anyway, to be discouraged from a lot of technological jobs, so anything that encourages women to see such careers as a real possibility is a good thing IMO.

Nowhere is that even hinting that women will be employed over similarly qualified men, it is just encouraging them to consider it as a career.

The_Conductor

nouggatti wrote: »

However, by far my favourite networking events to attend are those focussed on my specialisation with a decent mix of men and women, where one can feel comfortable talking to people who share a common interest.

I guess what I was saying- is this doesn't tend to happen- with either sexes. Women in general have far better interactions with each other. I'm a systems analyst myself- working predominantly on a female IT team- and the difference between this and my last role- where I was a software tester couldn't be more pronounced. I could previously have been hidden in a dungeon for weeks on end- and no-one would notice or care- whereas now I know all my colleagues, their interactions with each other, how their family lives are, whats happening on the X Factor (shudder......) etc...... Its a wholly different environment- I don't think they are comparable- even if you are doing the same job in a male dominated environment. The other thing I noticed- a lot more coffee, nicotine and alcohol addictions in the male dominated environment.......?

artful_codger

smccarrick wrote: »

now I know all my colleagues, their interactions with each other, how their family lives are,

in other words, women like to gossip instead of working. that's my experience too. i just love hearing how intelligent little jimmy is, or hearing every little detail of a person planning her wedding.

zzzzzzzzz