Would the IMF approve of 200 people in Met Eireann, at an annual cost of 23 million ?

jimmmy

How many people does it take to predict the weather ?

Met Eireann, according to themselves, have a staff of 200, and an annual budget of around €23m. Its currently recruiting a director ( € 139 k to € 159k, with 31 days holidays a year, in case you are interested ). http://www.publicjobs.ie

We are a small enough country. Much is done by computers nowadays....we can get a very detailed forecast online free by by going in to foreign forecasting services.

Compared to the existing situation, and considering the countries finances, does anyone else think an equally good job could be done by Met Eireann , employing 100 people ? And at say 8 million annual cost instead of 23 million for the 200 people ?

To compare the situation with our nearest neighbour, a country of nearly twenty times the population, they say they ( the UK met office )
" employ around 1,800 people at 60 sites across the world
450 work in Research Science
730 in Forecasting and Observations
290 in IT
40 in sales marketing and business development
280 in corporate and business support functions like Human Resources, Finance, Procurement and Communications.
Overseas locations include the Falkland Islands, Ascension Island, Gibraltar, Cyprus and Germany.
work with the RAF in Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Qatar."
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/recruitment/worktypes.html


If the IMF moves in ( as Minister Harney said is possible in the next 2 years ), will they impose cuts on otherwise forgotten areas of our p.s. like the met service ? If we look after the cents , maybe the euros will look after themselves ?

dvpower

Bloody government. No wonder its always raining.:rolleyes:

P. Breathnach

We have more weather than anybody else.

mike65

Its daft, TG4 use a company called Weather Services International in Birmingham (England, not Alabama) for their weather data I imagine they get it as about as right as RTE1 & 2 do.

dresden8

I see they start at 25 annual leave days a year. More than the Irish Civil Service starts on.

And all this stuff too

Other benefits include:

•salary sacrifice schemes for a bike to work or childcare vouchers
•allowances for certain jobs, tasks or locations — shift working, weekend working, working in London.
•a library
•staff well being and support services
Facilities at our headquarters

•Well-equipped gym and fitness suite
•Shop and cash-point facility
•Two coffee shops and a restaurant
•Met Office Sports and Social Association which provides a range of subsidised recreational activities.

You're right jimmmy, when are the Irish public servants gonna get this stuff?

Disgraceful.

cyclopath2001

jimmmy wrote: »

If we look after the cents , maybe the euros will look after themselves ?

How does Met Eireann compare to a country you know a lot about - Finland? How many people do the Finns employ and what's the Budget?

dfbemt

Nooooooooo

Not more ps bashing, jimmmy style.

Change the record jimmmy. It's getting a bit predictable.;)

bangersandmash

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

How does Met Eireann compare to a country you know a lot about - Finland? How many people do the Finns employ and what's the Budget?

540-600 people for a population of 5.3 million, with a budget of €30m+. When will those reckless Finns learn!

The Finnish Meteorological Institute ( or simply FMI) is the government agency responsible for gathering and reporting weather data and forecasts in Finland.

The number of full-time staff of the Finnish Meteorological Institute is about 540. Permanent staff members account for about 2/3 of the Institute's personnel and those with contractual posts account for the remainder. The Institute operates in on a round-the-clock basis and about 30 percent of the full-time staff work in shifts.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Finnish_Meteorological_Institute
http://www.fmi.fi/organization/annual.html

Absurdum

mike65 wrote: »

Its daft, TG4 use a company called Weather Services International in Birmingham (England, not Alabama) for their weather data I imagine they get it as about as right as RTE1 & 2 do.

where do you think they get their raw data from?

mikemac

An effectiant office is important.
And if you consider how important the weather is to farmers, you'd see why 5 minutes on a broadcast after the new forcast isn't good enough

cyclopath2001

bangersandmash wrote: »

540-600 people for a population of 5.3 million, with a budget of €30m+. When will those reckless Finns learn!

It's 38.9 million. Nearly double the budget of Met Eireann.

dvpower

dresden8 wrote: »

And all this stuff too

Other benefits include:

•salary sacrifice schemes for a bike to work or childcare vouchers

Innovative use of tax breaks to provide employee benefits. Very progressive

•allowances for certain jobs, tasks or locations — shift working, weekend working, working in London.

All pretty normal here. If my employer asked me to live and work in London, I'd be looking for an allowance.

•a library

Excellent idea. Cheap as chips to run. Encourages employees to keep up to date with relevant material. A no brainer.

•staff well being and support services

staff well being - we can't be having that:rolleyes:

Facilities at our headquarters

•Well-equipped gym and fitness suite

Is it free, subsidised?

•Shop and cash-point facility

Handy. And probably an income stream for the Met

•Two coffee shops and a restaurant

Ditto.

•Met Office Sports and Social Association which provides a range of subsidised recreational activities.

Not unusual in large organisations. A good perk 'though.


I can't see anything much wrong with this. I'm all for a bit of public sector bashing, but this is scraping the barrel.

This is all stuff that the Finns would approve of.:)

Absurdum

dvpower wrote: »

I can't see anything much wrong with this. I'm all for a bit of public sector bashing, but this is scraping the barrel.

Just to clarify, those benefits you are quoting are from the UK Met Office, not Met Eireann.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/recruitment/benefits.html

Absurdum

jimmmy wrote: »

How many people does it take to predict the weather ?

Met Eireann, according to themselves, have a staff of 200, and an annual budget of around €23m. Its currently recruiting a director ( € 139 k to € 159k, with 31 days holidays a year, in case you are interested ). http://www.publicjobs.ie

We are a small enough country. Much is done by computers nowadays....we can get a very detailed forecast online free by by going in to foreign forecasting services.

Compared to the existing situation, and considering the countries finances, does anyone else think an equally good job could be done by Met Eireann , employing 100 people ? And at say 8 million annual cost instead of 23 million for the 200 people ?

A couple of minutes research could have led you to an informed post on this, Jimmy, instead of the usual PS bashing that you like to engage in.

From www.met.ie you could have looked at the latest annual report on the site for 2006, where they have a breakdown of their income and expenditure for that year

http://www.met.ie/publications/MET_06_ENGLISH.pdf

or

http://www.met.ie/publications/MET_06_IRISH.pdf
which you will see has a net cost of €12.3 million, which is based on 222 staff (since reduced).

jimmmy

Absurdum wrote: »

which you will see has a net cost of €12.3 million, which is based on 222 staff (since reduced).

The public sector itself has just said that in Autumn 09 it has " a staff of 200, and an annual budget of around €23m ". You can read this yourself on http://www.publicjobs.ie/, as well as other info on Met Eireann, and the job it is advertising there. I know public expenditure practically doubled in ten years , but in Met Eireann did it really increase from 12.3 million in 2006 to 23 million today ?

I wonder could 100 people tell the forecast for Ireland as well as 200 people ?

Absurdum

jimmmy wrote: »

The public sector itself has just said that in Autumn 09 it has " a staff of 200, and an annual budget of around €23m ". You can read this yourself on http://www.publicjobs.ie/, as well as other info on Met Eireann, and the job it is advertising there. I know public expenditure practically doubled in ten years , but in Met Eireann did it really increase from 12.3 million in 2006 to 23 million today ?

I wonder could 100 people tell the forecast for Ireland as well as 200 people ?

There are not 200 forecasters in Met Eireann, or 100 for that matter. Again may I refer you to their annual reports.

And while you're at it, find out the difference between a budget and the net cost to the exchequer.

Duiske

mike65 wrote: »

Its daft, TG4 use a company called Weather Services International in Birmingham (England, not Alabama) for their weather data I imagine they get it as about as right as RTE1 & 2 do.

So the taxpayer is subsidising both TG4 and Met Eireann, and then TG4 pay a British company for its weather forecasts. What ever happened to "Buy Irish" ?

From the figures posted by Absurdum above, it seems to me that they run a pretty tight ship in Glasnevin.

jmayo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

We have more weather than anybody else.

Yeah and all of it is sh**e :mad:

bangersandmash wrote: »

540-600 people for a population of 5.3 million, with a budget of €30m+. When will those reckless Finns learn!


http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Finnish_Meteorological_Institute
http://www.fmi.fi/organization/annual.html

Have you ever been to Finland, do have any idea how large the country is in comparison to our little island, nevermind the 26 counties we run ?

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's 38.9 million. Nearly double the budget of Met Eireann.

Again look at an Atlas and check out how large a country Finland is :rolleyes:

With regard to something like weather forecasting you can't compare based on population size, but base comparisons on geographical size or maybe some of the people around here reckon that Singapore shoudl have huge met service for their state based on their population :rolleyes:

bangersandmash

jmayo wrote: »

With regard to something like weather forecasting you can't compare based on population size

Of course it's a pointless comparison. But that comparison was the premise on which the OP's "argument" was based on.

But land mass might not be a particularly good measure either. A more useful comparison would be look at a country's dependence on certain weather-sensitive activities, such as agriculture or forestry, and look at how having an accurate indigenous meteorological service benefits those industries.

jimmmy

bangersandmash wrote: »

A more useful comparison would be look at a country's dependence on certain weather-sensitive activities, such as agriculture or forestry.

Agriculture is very important to our economy, as we have 30,000 people in the dept of Agriculture for not much more than 100,000 full time farmers.
With 200 people in met Eireann, ye think they could change the weather instead of just saying " scattered showers + sunny spells";)

Euro_Kraut

jmayo wrote: »

Again look at an Atlas and check out how large a country Finland is :rolleyes:

With regard to something like weather forecasting you can't compare based on population size, but base comparisons on geographical size or maybe some of the people around here reckon that Singapore shoudl have huge met service for their state based on their population :rolleyes:

Belgium with a land mass with is less than half of our employ a similar number of people: http://www.meteo.be/meteo/view/en/478309-Introduction.html

Also I would imagine the Sea Area Forecast produced by Met Eireann represent a significant proportion of their business.

inforfun

jimmmy wrote: »

How many people does it take to predict the weather ?
QUOTE]

1.
Weather in ireland is sh*te and will be sh*te.

This weather forecast was free btw.


But it is not only the weather forecast you see on tv they are busy with, i suppose. Shipping, agriculture, they all need those forecasts to run their business.

Absurdum

inforfun wrote: »

But it is not only the weather forecast you see on tv they are busy with, i suppose. Shipping, agriculture, they all need those forecasts to run their business.

Aviation more so than shipping. But some people here seem to think that a 15 second slot on the radio is all they do

jimmmy

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Also I would imagine the Sea Area Forecast produced by Met Eireann represent a significant proportion of their business.

Is it a business when they do not sell the information ? More of a service paid by the taxpayer. Who if he wants a sea area forecast, can ( and often does ) listen to the BBC shipping forecast instead, or log on to numerous free sites such as www.magicseaweed.com

Essesntially, seeing as the government is looking for 4 billion of cuts ( at least ) in the coming budget, I just wonder where the cuts would be best made....of course nobody wants them made in their own dept. Could 20% ( for example ) be taken off the Met service and the weather still be predicted as accurately as before ?

octo

jimmmy wrote: »

Met Eireann, according to themselves, have a staff of 200, and an annual budget of around €23m. Its currently recruiting a director ( € 139 k to € 159k, with 31 days holidays a year, in case you are interested ). http://www.publicjobs.ie

We are a small enough country. Much is done by computers nowadays....we can get a very detailed forecast online free by by going in to foreign forecasting services.

Budget is not the same as cost. While ME does have a budget of €22m, it makes back about €10m in Aviation charges, RTE, Weatherdial, etc, so the cost to the exchequer is €12m. Read the details for 2007 on page 36 of their Annual Report.

And as Absurdum points out, where do you think the online forecasts get their raw observational data?

Euro_Kraut

jimmmy wrote: »

Is it a business when they do not sell the information ?

Its a vital public service for our fishing and leisure industry which is comparatively large compared to other EU states. Understand 'business' in this instance as meaning what they do rather than a direct economic activity. e.g. The Gardai are in the business of stopping crime.

In light of the fact that you initial figure were wrong and subsequently international comparisons have your changed your opinion about the efficiency of the service?

Absurdum

jimmmy wrote: »

Could 20% ( for example ) be taken off the Met service and the weather still be predicted as accurately as before ?

In a word, no. If it is at the cost of, say, having to abort a search and rescue mission because there are no forecasters available, then I think most people would prefer the relatively small cost to the state. That's not to say that some savings can't be made, of course, but that is something that can be applied right across the board.

jimmmy

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

In light of the fact that you initial figure were wrong

My initial figures wrong ? They were "copied and pasted" from the governments own website
Met Eireann, according to themselves," have a staff of 200, and an annual budget of around €23m."

You think those figures are wrong ?

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

and subsequently international comparisons

Where our neighbouring country spends far less per head of population on its Met service, even though it forecasts worldwide

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

have your changed your opinion about the efficiency of the service?

The efficiency of the service - or not as the case may be - is dependant on the quality of its service at what cost. As said before, seeing as the government is looking for 4 billion of cuts ( at least ) in the coming budget, I just wonder where the cuts would be best made. Do you think Eurokraut, could 20% or 40% be taken off the to the taxpayer of running the Met service and the weather still be predicted as accurately as before ? Could it even be run on a commercial basis. We all know how efficient state monopolies are when they have little or no competition. eg look at Aer Lingus before Ryanair came along.

Absurdum

jimmmy wrote: »

My initial figures wrong ? They were "copied and pasted" from the governments own website
Met Eireann, according to themselves," have a staff of 200, and an annual budget of around €23m."

You think those figures are wrong ?

Hi again Jimmy, you seem to have some trouble reading my posts because I already asked you to check out the difference between a budget and the net cost to the exchequer. Note posts 14 and 16 above please.

spank_inferno

Would it be fair to say that weather presenter Jean Byrne's "Assets" are worth more to the public than the costs of Met Eireann??

jimmmy

Absurdum wrote: »

Hi again Jimmy, you seem to have some trouble reading my posts because I already asked you to check out the difference between a budget and the net cost to the exchequer. Note posts 14 and 16 above please.

Hi again Absurdum, I can assure you I have no trouble reading your posts. When the government website says it has " a staff of 200, and an annual budget of around €23m." I quote that and leave it at that. You go off on a tangent wondering about net cost if you want. The serious issue affecting the country is the 25 billion the country is borrowing this year just to keep the show on the road. Could it even be run on a commercial basis? As said before, we all know how efficient state monopolies are when they have little or no competition. eg look at Aer Lingus before Ryanair came along.

Absurdum

jimmmy wrote: »

Hi again Absurdum, I can assure you I have no trouble reading your posts. When the government website says it has " a staff of 200, and an annual budget of around €23m." I quote that and leave it at that.

So you have no interest in listening to any details, yet you're still calling for 20% or 40% cuts to this budget, which would most probably lead to larger costs to the state due to subsequent curtailing of commercial activities, and also potentially costing lives as I gave an example of?

Oh the humanity.

mickoneill30

jimmmy wrote: »

Hi again Absurdum, I can assure you I have no trouble reading your posts. When the government website says it has " a staff of 200, and an annual budget of around €23m." I quote that and leave it at that.

Fair enough. Then when people explain it more to you, you ignore the explanation and pretend it doesn't exist.

miju

I'd say at best and doing some very quick comparisons the MET office is 4% overstaffed if that compared to their UK equivalents. So we're talking what 8 staff being relocated to another dept?

So in answer to your question jimmny no the IMF wouldnt give a rats ass about 8 jobs in the grander scheme of things :rolleyes:

Oh btw as far as I can see the UK MET office budget doesnt include staff wages unlikee the MET Eireann office does.

jimmmy

Absurdum wrote: »

So you have no interest in listening to any details, .

Yes I have listened to the details. Could the efficiency for the taxpayer be improved ? Or where else in the public expenditure budget would you like to see the government make the 4 billion of savings it is endeavouring to make in the forthcoming budget ?

jimmmy

miju wrote: »

I'd say at best and doing some very quick comparisons the MET office is 4% overstaffed if that compared to their UK equivalents.

After so many years of Labour government, we all know what padding their is in many parts of UK government. Besides, the UK forecasts around the world. Does Met Eireann ? If it does, does it need to ?
If the IMF moves in, in a year or two ( as Minister Harney has hinted is quite possible ), will it care what UK levels are in its Met service ? Would it not be more likely to just slash our public expenditure budget ? Its ok to have 200 people in the Met service ( as opposed to say 160 ) and people lying on hospital trolleys ? Could 160 people one day be enough - in this computerised age - to predict the weather in and around Ireland ? If the Met service should be left out of the € 4 billions in saving the govt has to make this year, and next year, where do you think the cuts should fall ?

larrytom

tomorrows forecast---rain spreadin froam the west

jimmmy

larrytom wrote: »

tomorrows forecast---rain spreadin froam the west

lol lol. Thanks for that, here is € 63,013 for the days work, lads + lassies.;)

No wonder most people needing accurate specialised forecasts go to foreign sites such as www.magicseaweed.com

partypiper

sunny spells followed by bursts of Jimmy stupidy giving way to a dry weekend where jimmy comes up with ilogical arguements and doesn't listen to posters as they quite rightly shoot down every one of his points

graduate

This thread is typical of this forum, a complete fact free zone. The people posting here, including me, haven't a clue about what the Met office do. We don't know what role they play in agriculture, aviation or shipping. Perhaps they are overstaffed or perhaps they are understaffed, but there is little point in talking about it unless there is some concrete information.

The only observation I would make is that the likes of the Met office and the Ordnance Survey should have been made Cross Border bodies as they deal with the geography of the island rather than its political structures. There is significant unnecessary duplication in this respect, something McCarthy did not address.

octo

larrytom wrote: »

tomorrows forecast---rain spreadin froam the west

And this adds what exactly to the discussion?

Euro_Kraut

Jimmy, unless you are willing to acknowledge that your initial figure were misleading and that both Finland and Belgium have greater staffing and budgets than I am going to have to add you to my ignore list.

Life it too short to have to read the opinions of people who are unwilling to admit when they have made mistakes.

dahamsta

I love the suggestions that people should get their weather forecasts from foreign sources. Where do ye think they get their data from, dummies?

jimmmy

And all the while the country is borrowing 70 million euro a day , the country is 70 million further in debt. We are paying 50% more in interest on our borrowing compared with Germany ( they can borrow money at 3% annual interest on ten year bonds , our govt pays 4.5% ). The clouds are getting greyer, but no posters in this thread will say exactly where they want the 4 billion in cutbacks ( the govt has promised the EU ) in the forthcoming budget....and the 4 billion next year. Maybe the Met service efficiency cannot be improved or savings made there....maybe our whole public service is extremely cost efficient. Did Aer Lingus think it was efficient when it was charging 200 quid to fly to the UK in the seventies + early eighties, before Ryanair came along ?

jimmmy

dahamsta wrote: »

I love the suggestions that people should get their weather forecasts from foreign sources. Where do ye think they get their data from, dummies?

lol Where do you think the Met Service get their weather from ? Do they own the buoys out in the Atlantic ? Maybe they do. Anyone know ?

gucci

mike65 wrote: »

Its daft, TG4 use a company called Weather Services International in Birmingham (England, not Alabama) for their weather data I imagine they get it as about as right as RTE1 & 2 do.

Really? You learn something new every day....

partypiper

Cuts are obvious but may be politically tough:

1>Reduce Social Welfare payments in line with deflation
e.g. 2009 CPI was lets say -7% reduce social welfare by 7%
Those on social welfare should not see their real incomes rise while others fall.

2>Child Benefit should be means tested to below 60,000(joint income). The likes of Pat Kenny and Bono's kids should not be able to receive it. There rich kids already why make them richer

3>Meaningful reform of the HSE, with severe reductions in backoffice/ admin functions i.e. staff cuts but NOT FRONTLINE

4>Sensible McCarthy report reductions (merging of quangos etc.)


The holy trinity of spending is:

Social Welfare
Public Service
Heatlh and Education

All need to aborb a cut some more than others

jimmmy

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Jimmy, unless you are willing to acknowledge that your initial figure were misleading.

As explained already , more than once, the initial figures were quoted directly from the governments own webside, which I also indicated at the time. When it says it has a " a staff of 200, and an annual budget of around €23m." , I reproduce that quote. You can say its misleading or not. Its in black and white on the govt website, whose link I gave you.

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

and that both Finland and Belgium have greater staffing and budgets than I am going to have to add you to my ignore list.

.

I did not look at Finland + Belgium ...I never claimed our met service was the most expensive in the world or anything like that. Maybe Finland + Belgium spends a lot on its met service, I do not know or care. Bigger countries tend to have bigger needs.

Absurdum

jimmmy wrote: »

Its ok to have 200 people in the Met service ( as opposed to say 160 ) and people lying on hospital trolleys ? Could 160 people one day be enough - in this computerised age - to predict the weather in and around Ireland ? If the Met service should be left out of the € 4 billions in saving the govt has to make this year, and next year, where do you think the cuts should fall ?

You'll be delighted to learn that from January 1st next year, the staff number will be 176, with a further fall expected by mid 2010. So your holy grail of 160 isn't too far away. Met services all around the world use computer modelling and prediction every day, I'm sure you'll understand that said computers require people to operate, maintain, program, etc. too, which doesn't come cheap.

Absurdum

graduate wrote: »

This thread is typical of this forum, a complete fact free zone. The people posting here, including me, haven't a clue about what the Met office do. We don't know what role they play in agriculture, aviation or shipping.

Actually, I know what they do (it's Met Eireann btw, the UK service is the Met Office), I deal with them on an almost daily basis.

Absurdum

jimmmy wrote: »

lol Where do you think the Met Service get their weather from ? Do they own the buoys out in the Atlantic ? Maybe they do. Anyone know ?

www.met.ie knows but sure what would you be doing looking on their own site when you decided to make a thread criticising them!

http://met.ie/marine/marine_observations.asp

:rolleyes: