Public sector told 'strike and pay will be docked'

Amhran Nua

From the Independent:

THE Department of Finance has vowed to dock the wages of public sector workers who strike in protest over cutbacks imposed in December's Budget.

If even a fraction of the 320,000 public sector workforce went on strike, the Government could end up saving millions in pay costs.

The total bill for the public sector is currently €20bn per annum and is being scrutinised by the Government for further cutbacks following last year's pension levy.

When the 210 annual working days are divided into the €20bn bill, the daily pay costs amount to around €95m.

If even a fraction of public sector unions were to follow through on their threats to hold work-stoppages before and after the Budget, protesting workers would be hit in their pockets and the Government's coffers would be boosted by millions.

The Department of Finance sources said the Government would not be paying workers for work not completed if on strike. Workers' unions are highly unlikely to compensate them for the loss of earnings.

Many public sector unions are expected to strike but possibly not until after the budget in the event of pay cuts.

However, tens of thousands of public sector workers have threatened to strike before the budget- including 43,000 health workers at SIPTU who are balloting for industrial action over non-payment of a 3.5pc rise due under the national pay agreement since Sept 1. A further 20,000 local authority workers, who are also members of the union, are expected to follow.

The Civil, Public and Services Union (CPSU)- the only union to take strike action over the pension levy- has also forecast pre-emptive industrial action in the public sector ahead of the Budget.

So eh, its part of the budget balancing measures to get public sector workers out striking now is it?

P. Breathnach

What sort of story is that? The Department of Finance "vowing" to dock pay?

First, I doubt if there is a vow anywhere; it's just a word used by tabloid journalists.

Second, docking pay for strike days is normal. Furthermore, it eats into the associated pension entitlements.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What sort of story is that? The Department of Finance "vowing" to dock pay?

First, I doubt if there is a vow anywhere; it's just a word used by tabloid journalists.

Second, docking pay for strike days is normal. Furthermore, it eats into the associated pension entitlements.

I am glad to see something can eat in to "pension entitlements" !
Is it the only thing than can ? eg if a public servant strikes for two weeks, does he / she lose one thousanth of their pension ?

If everyone else only lost a thousanth of their "pension entitlements" over the last few years, things would not be as bad

Long Onion

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What sort of story is that? The Department of Finance "vowing" to dock pay?

First, I doubt if there is a vow anywhere; it's just a word used by tabloid journalists.

Second, docking pay for strike days is normal. Furthermore, it eats into the associated pension entitlements.

True, it also renders invalid many claims under commonly sold insurance policies.

conorhal

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What sort of story is that? The Department of Finance "vowing" to dock pay?

Second, docking pay for strike days is normal. Furthermore, it eats into the associated pension entitlements.

Well you would think it's normal, but as with most things in the inverted world of the public sector, it's not as normal as you might believe.
The government rarely docks pay in scenario's of industrial despute, and when they do. guess what the first item is on the agenda is when talks with the public sector unions start to 'resolve' the strike?
If you said that it is "we want back all the pay you docked us for not doing any work while out on strike, you know, as opposed to us not doing any work as par for the course during our working day", well then you would have guessed right.
Unions, having your cake and eating it at the taxpayers expense.

dvpower

This is a complete non story. If you go on strike, you don't get paid. That's pretty straightforward; we don't need the indo to tell us that.

But it got me wondering; is strike pay taxable? I expect it is. I wonder if anyone has ever declared their strike pay to Revenue. Could be a big revenue earner next year.

mikemac

This is normal, if you walk out and go on strike you don't get paid

That's what strike pay is for.
Though different unions have different rules, I believe it's common that you have to be on the picket line for three consecutive days to qualify for strike pay. I read that here once.

The unions have large reserves worth tens of millons, looks like they may need them!

cyclopath2001

conorhal wrote: »

in the inverted world of the public sector, it's not as normal as you might believe. The government rarely docks pay in scenario's of industrial despute,

Link please?

BroomBurner

Typical Indo rubbish.

If you strike, you don't get paid. Can you imagine the amount of strikes there would be in Ireland (in all sectors) if everyone knew they wouldn't be losing out on their pay?!

ardmacha

Anyway a work to rule is better than a strike, if the form isn't filled in properly then send it back.

eoinbn

conorhal has it right. Usually one of the demands in the talks is that the workers receive back pay and other benifits- holidays for days worked etc.

cyclopath2001

eoinbn wrote: »

conorhal has it right. Usually one of the demands in the talks is that the workers receive back pay and other benifits- holidays for days worked etc.

Link please?

eoinbn

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Link please?

A link to what? An unwritten rule?

cyclopath2001

eoinbn wrote: »

A link to what? An unwritten rule?

Thought as much...you've made it up.

P. Breathnach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Thought as much...you've made it up.

There is an archaic provision in many areas of public service employment where a "break in service" can send people back to square one for various purposes, such as eligibility for promotion. The unions normally seek to have breaks in service disregarded, and this needs to be done explicitly and formally.

BroomBurner

eoinbn wrote: »

conorhal has it right. Usually one of the demands in the talks is that the workers receive back pay and other benifits- holidays for days worked etc.

Have you seen proof of this happening, or is this just your own idea of what goes on in the world?

cyclopath2001

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There is an archaic provision in many areas of public service employment where a "break in service" can send people back to square one for various purposes, such as eligibility for promotion. The unions normally seek to have breaks in service disregarded, and this needs to be done explicitly and formally.

This is a completely different matter to what was being alleged by the learned eoinbn

eoinbn wrote:

conorhal has it right. Usually one of the demands in the talks is that the workers receive back pay and other benifits- holidays for days worked etc.

eoinbn

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Thought as much...you've made it up.

I can go write it in a random Wikipedia page- will that make it true? As I said it's an unwritten rule, so it varies. Workers don't always get it, and sometimes there can be a work around- for example I remember(at least I think I do) we lost a summer holiday day when the teachers striked during the year so they worked an extra day at the end of the year to make up for it.

BroomBurner

eoinbn wrote: »

I can go write it in a random Wikipedia page- will that make it true? As I said it's an unwritten rule, so it varies. Workers don't always get it, and sometimes there can be a work around- for example I remember(at least I think I do) we lost a summer holiday day when the teachers striked during the year so they worked an extra day at the end of the year to make up for it.

Calling something an "unwritten rule" doesn't actually back up what you're saying as fact.

I was in 6th year when the teachers all went out on strike for numerous days. They all lost their pay for those days (at least ours did, anyway). They didn't work any extra days to make up for it. What days were there to work up anyway? Public servants aren't actually able to add days on to the 365/366 that already exist (though I'd like to be able to, just to clear my workload!).

miju

like we don't know already our wages will be "docked". it was the same during the last 1 day stoppage so obviously will be same next time around :rolleyes:

miju

ardmacha wrote: »

Anyway a work to rule is better than a strike,

exactly. public servants can easily cause alot of cahos by simply working to rule. services get hit severely and we still get paid.

it is i believe what the unions are planning to do and only have all out stoppages in certain depts such as welfare so the unions can still afford strike pay

eoinbn

BroomBurner wrote: »

Calling something an "unwritten rule" doesn't actually back up what you're saying as fact.

I was in 6th year when the teachers all went out on strike for numerous days. They all lost their pay for those days (at least ours did, anyway). They didn't work any extra days to make up for it. What days were there to work up anyway? Public servants aren't actually able to add days on to the 365/366 that already exist (though I'd like to be able to, just to clear my workload!).

Yawn. Secondary teachers in Ireland have to work, iirc, 167 days to get full pay.

cyclopath2001

eoinbn wrote: »

I can go write it in a random Wikipedia page- will that make it true? As I said it's an unwritten rule, so it varies.

You mean that you don't have a shred of evidence.

eoinbn wrote: »

for example I remember(at least I think I do) we lost a summer holiday day when the teachers striked during the year so they worked an extra day at the end of the year to make up for it.

So they got paid for exactly the number of days they worked? Shocking...shouldn't be allowed.

P. Breathnach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This is a completely different matter to what was being alleged by the learned eoinbn

I know that. I offered it as part of the free information service I sometimes operate here.

It could also be that some people conclude that making good a break in service was equivalent to paying people for a day that they had been on strike.

dresden8

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You mean that you don't have a shred of evidence.

Public service bashers don't need evidence, they know.

eoinbn

dresden8 wrote: »

Public service bashers don't need evidence, they know.

Can you point to where I bashed anyone in this thread?
I don't see what the fuss is about. All I said is that backpay, and other benifits, are often part of the negotiation.

Anyway, I am a bit tired of going around in circles with people that have a vested interest.

cyclopath2001

eoinbn wrote: »

All I said is that backpay, and other benifits, are often part of the negotiation.

Can you demonstrate that this is true?

dresden8

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Can you demonstrate that this is true?

He doesn't have to demonstrate it, he knows.

Now begone, your foolish circles tire him.

Lemming

dresden8 wrote: »

He doesn't have to demonstrate it, he knows.

The IMF knows what's good for you too desden8 ...

Don't be so quick to cast that stone.

dresden8

Lemming wrote: »

The IMF knows what's good for you too desden8 ...

Don't be so quick to cast that stone.

Quakes in fear. Vote yes to jobs, yes to economic recovery, yes to no IMF!!!!!!!!!!

cyclopath2001

Lemming wrote: »

The IMF knows what's good for you too desden8

Can you provide more details?

The Valley

miju wrote: »

exactly. public servants can easily cause alot of cahos by simply working to rule. services get hit severely and we still get paid.

it is i believe what the unions are planning to do and only have all out stoppages in certain depts such as welfare so the unions can still afford strike pay

work to rule - you all make me sick. Greedy , lazy shower of wingers

gerry28

The Valley wrote: »

work to rule - you all make me sick. Greedy , lazy shower of wingers

Work to rule is part of industrial action, its not always a direct strike.

Looking at the AIB seeking a 3 percent pay rise and after the BOI got their one a few months ago. It just makes me even more determined not to roll over and accept cuts while the majority in the private sector don't take any.

Sure there are job losses in the private sector and lots of staff getting their wages cut.... but not half as many as some would have us believe.

Lemming

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Can you provide more details?

/sigh

Recognise sarcasm much?

Incidentally, dresden .. your vote wouldn't matter much if and god forbidding the IMF ever do come in here .... So what are you clamouring about voting for?

Simple. Arithmetic. Shows that whomever you vote in is going to have to swing the axe brutally on public expenditure; either by way of service provision in which case justification for having many people sitting around doing nothing wont happen (i.e. see the bit about culling), or by way of pay/culling of staff. The recent dublin bus spat springs to mind as an indicator of pubic service union feelings; management at Dublin Bus tried to draw up a roster that kept everyone employed albeit with less money for all, but the full time drivers refused, which meant that 'n' routes had to be scrapped and quite a few part-time drivers sacked. Unity eh?


Simple. Arithmetic. I'd like to not see anyone lose a job or lose pay, but reality says quite another thing to what I or anyone else would like to see.

maxximus

i work in the public service , after 5 years study and ten years work experience i now earn just over 1k a week.

with 2 income levies , 2 prsi , 2 widow and orphans pensions , 2 super annuation pension payments , 3 different pension levy payments , income tax at 2 rates , my take home is 569 euro per week.

i do not have a mortgage , i am single , so after paying rent and bills i have a disposable income of less than 800 euro per month.

i have students ( i work in adult ed) who recieve welfare of 204 and student allowances of 60 euro per week with free medical care , 650 rent allowance per month ( i could live in a palace with that) , free fuel and electricity , they are way better off than i and have no problem telling me that.

and then you come on here with dicks wanting public service wages cut by 20% , cop on as you have no idea what you are talking about.

people go on to the web and see public service salaries and think they are huge , when deductions are made , they are not so big.

also the odd night i venture out at weekends all i hear are former construction workers shouting abuse at me telling me my wages should be cut, the majority are working for cash and when i told them every public servant should start reporting them they shut up quickly.

the social welfare problem is a huge problem in this country as it is way above what it should be and while a lot of speil exists that cuts need to happen at the top , they need to happen at the bottom too.

in order to do this the government need to cap the price of living in this country , ie from a loaf of bread to a pint of beer.

do that , cut social to reflect it and then come back to me and ask me to take a cut and i gladly will , but until that happens i will fight every cut to the bitter end.

eoinbn

maxximus wrote: »

i work in the public service , after 5 years study and ten years work experience i now earn just over 1k a week.

with 2 income levies , 2 prsi , 2 widow and orphans pensions , 2 super annuation pension payments , 3 different pension levy payments , income tax at 2 rates , my take home is 569 euro per week.

i do not have a mortgage , i am single , so after paying rent and bills i have a disposable income of less than 800 euro per month.

i have students ( i work in adult ed) who recieve welfare of 204 and student allowances of 60 euro per week with free medical care , 650 rent allowance per month ( i could live in a palace with that) , free fuel and electricity , they are way better off than i and have no problem telling me that.

and then you come on here with dicks wanting public service wages cut by 20% , cop on as you have no idea what you are talking about.

people go on to the web and see public service salaries and think they are huge , when deductions are made , they are not so big.

also the odd night i venture out at weekends all i hear are former construction workers shouting abuse at me telling me my wages should be cut, the majority are working for cash and when i told them every public servant should start reporting them they shut up quickly.

the social welfare problem is a huge problem in this country as it is way above what it should be and while a lot of speil exists that cuts need to happen at the top , they need to happen at the bottom too.

in order to do this the government need to cap the price of living in this country , ie from a loaf of bread to a pint of beer.

do that , cut social to reflect it and then come back to me and ask me to take a cut and i gladly will , but until that happens i will fight every cut to the bitter end.

A perfect example of why the country is finished. On $77,000USD+ and believes that he/she is struggling to get by. At the start of the 'celtic tiger' $25k would of been considered a good wage, now it seems that triple that is just enough to live hand to mouth.

Lemming

maxximus wrote: »

and then you come on here with dicks wanting public service wages cut by 20% , cop on as you have no idea what you are talking about.

I haven't mentioned figures, but since you brought it up ... what exactly do you think the government should do to cut public spending? Conjure up money out of thin air?

If you do not think that the country has to cut your wage bill in order to control its outgoing expenses you are the one with no "cop-on".

Simple. Arithmetic.

people go on to the web and see public service salaries and think they are huge , when deductions are made , they are not so big.

And what. The. F*CK. do you think the rest of us have? Gold f*cking plated salaries with pensions, health care, etc. etc. etc.? That is the most purile, self-serving twaddle I've heard yet come out of a public servant's mouth.

In case you haven't noticed, the country is haemorraging private sector money. The very money NEEDED to pay your wages. Get over your sense of "entitlement", wake up and smell the roses.

also the odd night i venture out at weekends all i hear are former construction workers shouting abuse at me telling me my wages should be cut, the majority are working for cash and when i told them every public servant should start reporting them they shut up quickly.

So report them. You think that some construction workers shouting abuse makes your case for you? Yeah? And? So? What?

the social welfare problem is a huge problem in this country as it is way above what it should be and while a lot of speil exists that cuts need to happen at the top , they need to happen at the bottom too.

But no cuts for you right? Everyone else but you ...

miju

eoinbn wrote: »

A perfect example of why the country is finished. On $77,000USD+ and believes that he/she is struggling to get by. At the start of the 'celtic tiger' $25k would of been considered a good wage, now it seems that triple that is just enough to live hand to mouth.

shall we stick to the actual currency of Ireland. Lest anyone being accused of trying to be sensationalist and make it sound like he's earning more than he is.

Lemming

miju wrote: »

shall we stick to the actual currency of Ireland. Lest anyone being accused of trying to be sensationalist and make it sound like he's earning more than he is.

circa €48,000 (calculated by his comments of 1k per week)

And he's pleading poverty ... I wonder what the mean pay of irish private sector workers would look like next to that. Before adding in "entitlements" for the public sector union member.

The Valley

maxximus wrote: »

i work in the public service , after 5 years study and ten years work experience i now earn just over 1k a week.

with 2 income levies , 2 prsi , 2 widow and orphans pensions , 2 super annuation pension payments , 3 different pension levy payments , income tax at 2 rates , my take home is 569 euro per week.

i do not have a mortgage , i am single , so after paying rent and bills i have a disposable income of less than 800 euro per month.

i have students ( i work in adult ed) who recieve welfare of 204 and student allowances of 60 euro per week with free medical care , 650 rent allowance per month ( i could live in a palace with that) , free fuel and electricity , they are way better off than i and have no problem telling me that.

and then you come on here with dicks wanting public service wages cut by 20% , cop on as you have no idea what you are talking about.

people go on to the web and see public service salaries and think they are huge , when deductions are made , they are not so big.

also the odd night i venture out at weekends all i hear are former construction workers shouting abuse at me telling me my wages should be cut, the majority are working for cash and when i told them every public servant should start reporting them they shut up quickly.

the social welfare problem is a huge problem in this country as it is way above what it should be and while a lot of speil exists that cuts need to happen at the top , they need to happen at the bottom too.

in order to do this the government need to cap the price of living in this country , ie from a loaf of bread to a pint of beer.

do that , cut social to reflect it and then come back to me and ask me to take a cut and i gladly will , but until that happens i will fight every cut to the bitter end.

OMG - I never thought it was that bad, you poor thing.................
JESUS CHRIST no wonder we are Fecked, you are taking home almost 600 Euro a week in a job that is safe from the axe and you are putting money away for your pension. Do you realise how many people with similar education and experiece in the private sector would love to be in your position.......
If, as you say, it is so much better on the dole - leave your job.
GET REAL

eoinbn

miju wrote: »

shall we stick to the actual currency of Ireland. Lest anyone being accused of trying to be sensationalist and make it sound like he's earning more than he is.

I put it in dollars as this country has lost the value of money. In '95 $25kUSD was the average wage in america. In '95 most irish people would of been happy on $25k. Come 2009 the average wage in the US is $41k, yet maxximus, and many other irish people, seem to believe that $77k is just enough to get by on- and that's not even including a mortgage.

dvpower

eoinbn wrote: »

A perfect example of why the country is finished. On > 28 million Zimbabwe Dollars and believes that he/she is struggling to get by.

FYP:D

maxximus

a cut of 20% and i will be leaving to emigrate as it just would not be worth the hassle. my 569(not 600 ) will go less than 5 , i pay rent of 125 , with car, health insurance , electricity and heat etc etc , it just aint worth it.


again , people are begruding , i am all for public service reform , in my sector i have 6 people working downstairs from me doing what i consider a non job , they are Advocate , Adult guidance , adult careers , further education support services , adult community education officer , adult educational development officer , some even have secretarys , all are failed female ( im not goona lie) teachers who couldnt handle the classroom and are employed doing jobs that i reckon i could do as part of my role as business / i.t/ maths tutor within the centre .

that is where reform is needed , keep cutting wages and revenue will just decrease all the more and the gap will widen .

i have taken a 10% cut , dress it what ever way you like that is what it is , 95% of private sector workers have yet too do so , without reducing the cost of living, people will not have any incentitive to work if the gap between social welfare and wages becomes narrower.

i am not willing to take a further cut until i see adjustments made on the wider scale ( now eoin see , i am willing to take the cut as stated above , but thats the part you chose not to read) , and i will fight with the support of the union to avoid these pay cuts at all costs.

maxximus

and a q for others , how much do you think my net income should be per week ?

I have an honours degree with a wide range of educational experience in my 10 years .

Lets have it, what do the brains of the forum think i should earn and also consider the cost of living in this country , as one cannot consider one without the other .

eoinbn

dvpower wrote: »

FYP:D

I have lost track of the value of currency in Zimbabwe, but given that they were printing $10,000,000,000,000 dollar notes a few months back I would guess that $28m is worth a few cent!

sceptre

You guys are getting a little too personal with each other. Kindly knock that on the head and stop doing it as handbag fights look idiotic for anyone who's not in one. Politics/Irish Economy: not your playground.

eoinbn

maxximus wrote: »

and a q for others , how much do you think my net income should be per week ?

I have an honours degree with a wide range of educational experience in my 10 years .

Lets have it, what do the brains of the forum think i should earn and also consider the cost of living in this country , as one cannot consider one without the other .

Please don't feel like I am singling you out. The country lost control and we will have to pay the price. Wages in this country will probably drop by 30-50% over the next 3-5 years, not because it's fair but because that is all the government will be able to afford. Usually what a government does is reduce the value of the currency, like they are doing in the UK/USA, which is an indirect paycut as purchasing power is reduced but we aren't in control of our currency so they will have to do it directly.

jimmmy

maxximus wrote: »

i work in the public service , after 5 years study and ten years work experience i now earn just over 1k a week.
.

I know plenty in the private sector eg someone with your study + experience but who is on 35k a year, longer hours, no security, no pension.

miju

Lemming wrote: »

I wonder what the mean pay of irish private sector workers would look like next to that. Before adding in "entitlements" for the public sector union member.

care to elaboorate on these "entitlements" ?

jimmmy wrote: »

I know plenty in the private sector eg someone with your study + experience but who is on 35k a year, longer hours, no security, no pension.

LOL , in fairness jimmmy you seem to know everyone in this country especially when it backs up a point or can be used to have a dig at the public sector :rolleyes:

jimmmy

miju wrote: »

LOL , in fairness jimmmy you seem to know everyone in this country especially when it backs up a point or can be used to have a dig at the public sector :rolleyes:

I know plenty of overpaid people in the private sector too eg dentists, accountants. I do not think I am that unique in knowing plenty of people. Many of my friends , family ,clubmates, business contacts, sports friends, old school pals, and neighbours etc would know plenty of people too.

gerry28

jimmmy wrote: »

I know plenty of overpaid people in the private sector too eg dentists, accountants. I do not think I am that unique in knowing plenty of people. Many of my friends , family ,clubmates, business contacts, sports friends, old school pals, and neighbours etc would know plenty of people too.

Jimmmy you must give everyone you meet a good stern interviewing to determine what they do and how much they are paid