Harney warns of IMF intervention within 2yrs?

gurramok

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1016/breaking45.htm

IT wrote:

Later, Minister for Health Mary Harney warned that if the Government doesn’t take tough decisions now, the International Monetary Fund would make them for the country.

“We are currently spending €500 million a week more than we are raising that’s not a sustainable situation," she said. “I believe if we make very tough decisions this year and next year we will see light at the end of the tunnel.

“It’s not going to be easy, it’s going to be incredibly difficult but we’re going to have to do it otherwise if others come in like the IMF because we haven’t the capacity to make these decisions then they will immediately start cutting expenditure by 30-40 per cent”.

This must be the first time a govt minister(like or loathe her) has stated the obvious to the public sector.(and welfare recipients of course )

Interesting that RTE never published the same comments http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1016/economy.html

Do nothing for 2 years and there will be 'no light'. Does she mean bankruptcy?

RTE wrote:

Speaking at the Dublin Chamber of Commerce annual dinner, the Minister Lenihan said that if borrowing continued unchecked, two out of every three euro of income tax would go to service a national debt of €160 billion by 2013.

Do nothing and the country will go broke in 4 years.

So if they do nothing or little to nothing to tackle public spending, is it a 2yr or a 4yr timeline to bankruptcy?

AARRRGH

gurramok wrote: »

Interesting that RTE never published the same comments http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1016/economy.html

Yep, RTE are really pissing me off. Total selective journalism, e.g. they're ok with their own shockingly high salaries, but not with the politicians, etc.

gerry28

Later, Minister for Health Mary Harney warned that if the Government doesn’t take tough decisions now, the International Monetary Fund would make them for the country.

Yeah it looks like they are getting the country prewarned about the butchery that lies ahead. Cowan and Lenihan are at the same.

I'm not sure what they hope to achieve by taking more money out of the economy and frightening the people into hoarding what little they have left.

AARRRGH

gerry28 wrote: »

I'm not sure what they hope to achieve by taking more money out of the economy and frightening the people into hoarding what little they have left.

They have no choice.

Rented Mule

Denial is a river that runs down Kildare Street.

The past two emergency budgets were shortsighted without any true vision or action that would lead this country through the darkness of this recession. Now, the only light is an oncoming train ?

I wish this government's foresight was a good as it's hindsight.

Diarmuid

I think this is part of the softening up for the upcoming cuts. They really have no choice. Bertie painted the country into this corner, no choice but to undo the damage he did.

eoinbn

gurramok wrote: »

So if they do nothing or little to nothing to tackle public spending, is it a 2yr or a 4yr timeline to bankruptcy?

We are already bankrupt. The cuts that are required are impossible to implement. The country is up in arms over small cuts of 5% in welfare and public sector pay when what we require is cuts much close to 50% than 5%.

peasant

As someone on the last word called it today, it's the "post Lisbon-vote deluge"

It's plain to see that we simply cannot afford to spend 400 million more every week than we're taking in. Those figures have been out there for months ...just that before the Lisbon vote was passed nobody from the governement wanted to mention them too loudly or too often.

They're simply catching up now, softening us all up for the really painful budget that HAS to come in December.

Even FF couldn't be so reckless as to continue as usual.

who_ru

look everyone in this country was in denial for the last 10 years, 2nd richest country in the world and all that ffs.

well now it's time to pay the piper, i don't care, the most of the electorate have only themselves to blame, elect FF time and time again, glorified county councillors the most of them.

the f**king unions are as bad, defending public sector pay rates that are way beyond what we can afford. it's typical of the irish at a time like this, divide in splinter groups, point at and blame everyone else, but never come together, realise we have a huge problem and need to work together to get it right. our politicians are a disgrace in this regard, constantly trying to score political points and further dividing opinion and society. school children would do better for god sake.

dodgyme

who_ru wrote: »

look everyone in this country was in denial for the last 10 years, 2nd richest country in the world and all that ffs..

I never could understand how we could be the 2nd richest nation on earth which queuing and having to pay a toll for the luxury of a 2 lane bridge over the liffey.

who_ru wrote: »

, the most of the electorate have only themselves to blame, elect FF time and time again, glorified county councillors the most of them...

I dont blame the sheep electorate although I could never understand who was voting them in. The opposition are sh*t also so I didnt completly tear my hair out. What I couldnt understand was the small mindedness of the electorate. The attitude taht I have got a tenner extra since the budget so I am happy type attitude. I rather have a tenner less and an exellect public transport?

who_ru wrote: »

the f**king unions are as bad, defending public sector pay rates that are way beyond what we can afford. it's typical of the irish at a time like this, divide in splinter groups, point at and blame everyone else, but never come together, realise we have a huge problem and need to work together to get it right. our politicians are a disgrace in this regard, constantly trying to score political points and further dividing opinion and society. school children would do better for god sake.

nice summary. I thought I had something to add, I dont so I will shut it!

brianthebard

Harney is marking the way for the next budget in similar language to NAMA, ie that this is the 'only show in town' and there's no other way to do things. Say it often enough until people are scared to think rationally about the options. Then do whatever they think is best, even if its not.

who_ru wrote: »

the f**king unions are as bad, defending public sector pay rates that are way beyond what we can afford. it's typical of the irish at a time like this, divide in splinter groups, point at and blame everyone else, but never come together, realise we have a huge problem and need to work together to get it right. our politicians are a disgrace in this regard, constantly trying to score political points and further dividing opinion and society. school children would do better for god sake.

Isn't that exactly what you're doing with your ****ing Unions comment?

eoinbn

brianthebard wrote: »

Harney is marking the way for the next budget in similar language to NAMA, ie that this is the 'only show in town' and there's no other way to do things. Say it often enough until people are scared to think rationally about the options. Then do whatever they think is best, even if its not.

Please enlighten us. Can you give us another way out of this?

brianthebard

eoinbn wrote: »

Please enlighten us. Can you give us another way out of this?

That wasn't the point I wsa making, the point was she's trying to frighten people into believing the government's policy is the only way to do things. I'm sure if you look at the other parties websites, or other countries policies, you'll see plenty of different ways to deal with the current situation.

peasant

brianthebard wrote: »

That wasn't the point I wsa making, the point was she's trying to frighten people into believing the government's policy is the only way to do things. I'm sure if you look at the other parties websites, or other countries policies, you'll see plenty of different ways to deal with the current situation.

So far no-one is dealing with anything much as far as our deficit is concerned, neither governement nor opposition ...they are just busy scoring points off each other.

dodgyme

brianthebard wrote: »

Isn't that exactly what you're doing with your ****ing Unions comment?

ya but who_ru doesnt represent a sizeable Public sector and I am not talking about mary harney.

dresden8

Harney's biggest worry is that the IMF will make her pay for her own hair-dos.

This slug has syphoned money from the public purse for years, especially after her husband opened the taps on FAS expenditure, and now tells us we have to tighten our belts.

I have no words for the depth of contempt I hold that woman in.

Takeshi_Kovacs

Well at least she and her fine colleagues in the dail will still have their generous salary, and if worst comes to the worst, and somehow the sheep vote them out of government, there's a nice little pension to keep them going through the hard times ahead.

I just hope people have the sense to never vote these abominations into office again (but they will unfortunately)

thebman

dresden8 wrote: »

Harney's biggest worry is that the IMF will make her pay for her own hair-dos.

This slug has syphoned money from the public purse for years, especially after her husband opened the taps on FAS expenditure, and now tells us we have to tighten our belts.

I have no words for the depth of contempt I hold that woman in.

Don't be mistaken man, she didn't want to have to come out and say this.

She is being made do it as FF don't want anyone in the party to come out and say it so end out the independent/PD to say the bad news and sacrifice her in the election next time out as it wasn't FF that wanted to make the cuts!

Its all FF PR and damned their coalition partners yet everyone is still blind to this illogical situation. They let it happen to get something they said they would do for their constituency hoping that will get them re-elected but this is all she will be remembered for if she becomes the face of cuts.

She has not business being the spokesperson for the cuts as its not like she is the Minister for Finance.

dresden8

thebman wrote: »

Don't be mistaken man, she didn't want to have to come out and say this.

She is being made do it as FF don't want anyone in the party to come out and say it so end out the independent/PD to say the bad news and sacrifice her in the election next time out as it wasn't FF that wanted to make the cuts!

Its all FF PR and damned their coalition partners yet everyone is still blind to this illogical situation. They let it happen to get something they said they would do for their constituency hoping that will get them re-elected but this is all she will be remembered for if she becomes the face of cuts.

She has not business being the spokesperson for the cuts as its not like she is the Minister for Finance.

Don't worry, my hatred of Harney does not absolve FF. Nor the Greens.

I can't wait until trev knocks on my door and I get to tell him what a cnut he is.

That also goes for Darragh O'Brien and Michael Kennedy.

All have a place on the list.

ghost_ie

FF would love it if the IMF did come in. Come the next election they could say "it wasn't us who cut all your wages and public services, it was the IMF. None of it was our fault". And we'd vote FF back into power again, just like we always do

Arnold Layne

ghost_ie wrote: »

FF would love it if the IMF did come in. Come the next election they could say "it wasn't us who cut all your wages and public services, it was the IMF. None of it was our fault". And we'd vote FF back into power again, just like we always do

Very true, the Irish Electorate have very short memories, look at the queues for the amnesiac's autobiography. We're a sad state.

thebman

not really though, the IMF would tell them to stop taking the piss with their avouched expenses and massive, unjustified salaries.

irish_bob

ghost_ie wrote: »

FF would love it if the IMF did come in. Come the next election they could say "it wasn't us who cut all your wages and public services, it was the IMF. None of it was our fault". And we'd vote FF back into power again, just like we always do

+1

reminds me of an interview with john o donoghues cousin after the cean comhlare had to step down , his cousin blamed the foreign media , so it goes with the IMF , twas them out foreign who took the medical card off me aunty betty and reduced the dole to 100 euro per week

brianthebard

brianthebard wrote: »

Harney is marking the way for the next budget in similar language to NAMA, ie that this is the 'only show in town' and there's no other way to do things. Say it often enough until people are scared to think rationally about the options. Then do whatever they think is best, even if its not.




Isn't that exactly what you're doing with your ****ing Unions comment?

While I am 100% against NAMA, I have to say that these cuts actually are the only worthwhile show in town. When the other show in town is the union leaders who have come out and said that we should just KEEP BORROWING for a few more years and everything will be grand.

I don't want to be paying 50% tax with 35-40% of it going to bloody interest payments for the foreseeable future.

We need to get competitive and now is the time to do it. If we don't, this country will be a write-off for my generation at least.

murphaph

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

While I am 100% against NAMA, I have to say that these cuts actually are the only worthwhile show in town. When the other show in town is the union leaders who have come out and said that we should just KEEP BORROWING for a few more years and everything will be grand.

I don't want to be paying 50% tax with 35-40% of it going to bloody interest payments for the foreseeable future.

We need to get competitive and now is the time to do it. If we don't, this country will be a write-off for my generation at least.

Exactly, the bearded twats representing the public sector will happily write off our children to preserve their current pay scales.

Across the board cuts have to come now, to all Public Sector grades and positions and to social welfare recipients. The public sector defined benefit scheme needs to be binned post haste and replaced with a defined contribution one. Public servants should pay class A PRSI and avail of the normal state pension like everyone else.

Then we can focus on eliminating the wasters from the public sector and rewarding the genuinely hard working. Weeding out social welfare and tax cheats should be high on the agenda.

But BEFORE any of this can be imposed with any degree of moral authority, the Dail needs urgent reform-pay cuts, expense caps and/or vouched expenses only, minimum time required in the Dail etc.

cyclopath2001

murphaph wrote: »

The public sector defined benefit scheme needs to be binned post haste and replaced with a defined contribution one. Public servants should pay class A PRSI and avail of the normal state pension like everyone else. .

How many Public Servants don't pay class 'A'?

ardmacha

The public sector defined benefit scheme needs to be binned post haste and replaced with a defined contribution one.

This defined contribution idea is a private sector pension fund model, all the better to siphon off commission to the pension fund managers. Public service pensions do not need to be funded in this way as the government is a continuing entity. If pay rates are appropriate then there is nothing wrong with the basic concept of the PS pension arrangements which simply maintains a constant relationship between pay and pensions. The only problem arises if people live longer, the cure is that the retirement age should be increased for all pension schemes.

Public servants should pay class A PRSI and avail of the normal state pension like everyone else.

This is pointless suggestion. Most public servants already do pay class A PRSI. Those who do not have lower pay scales, putting them on the scales of those who do pay the contribution and making them pay it is simply a bookkeeping exercise irrelevant to the current problems.

jimd2

I hear very little talk about the "non resident" millionaires who avoid paying tax just because of all of the loop holes presided over by Bertie & co. Bertie actually canvassed Lenihan after the last budget to keep these guys out of the tax loop.

What also about the consultants & the judges? Surely if the higher paid civil servants have to take a cut then these guys should be included.

I would suggest the following cuts to public sector pay. To include pensions.

Salaries up to €40K - reduce by 5%
€40-€80K - reduce by 10% all earnings above €40k - rest by 5%
€80-120k - reduce the portion above 80k by 10%
€120-160k reduce the portion above €120k by 20%
Earnings above €160 to be reduced by 25%

Also take a serious knife to the quangos such as those identified on Prime Time a few months ago. Knife through expenses for politicians, county councillors. Implement all McCarthy recommendations except education ones.

Reduce pension and social welfare payments by 5%.

Scrap the Senate.

Introduce a new tax rate for earnings above €80.

thebman

There aren't that many non-resident millionaires and many of these peoples supposed wealth was debt anyway and they are now fooked.

So we can close it down but I'm not sure what the consequences for their businesses here will be given they can do something like outsource a lot of work that is done in Ireland at present if they want to in order to reduce costs and increase profits to make the money lost through tax back.

graduate

What also about the consultants & the judges? Surely if the higher paid civil servants have to take a cut then these guys should be included.

Judges absolutely have to be included in this. Pass the law and let it go to the Supreme Court, who will most likely uphold it as there is no intention to target judges any more than anyone else.

Salaries up to €40K - reduce by 5%
€40-€80K - reduce by 10% all earnings above €40k - rest by 5%
€80-120k - reduce the portion above 80k by 10%
€120-160k reduce the portion above €120k by 20%
Earnings above €160 to be reduced by 25%

Do you mean reduce the portion above 80k by 15%?

Implement all McCarthy recommendations except education ones.

Some of these should be looked at too e.g. coordinating the ITs in the Dublin area and looking at the mission of the Tipp Institute.

_Kooli_

Pity the IMF wouldnt just take over the health service.

jimd2

graduate wrote: »

Judges absolutely have to be included in this. Pass the law and let it go to the Supreme Court, who will most likely uphold it as there is no intention to target judges any more than anyone else.



Do you mean reduce the portion above 80k by 15%?



Some of these should be looked at too e.g. coordinating the ITs in the Dublin area and looking at the mission of the Tipp Institute.

Yes - reduce portion above €80k by 15%.

Agree on the institutes etc. Probably needs to be reviewed on a case by case basis.

thebman

I think we need to look at education TBH. Since the economy has collapsed we are going to see less people immigrating over here and will probably see a natural reduction in teacher/pupil ratio and might need all these new teachers the greens are demanding until we recover to growth as people have less children in a developed economy because they are generally more career focused.

Worth looking into at the very least as if we need less primary school teachers, we will need less secondary and then less third level places for these kids.

bigstar

seriously, this is just more spin from the government in an effort to scare people into accepting cuts in the next budget. the IMF wont coming anywhere near ireland anytime soon.

i couldnt see the IMF sanctioning Pr. Drumm's bonus either or looking too favourably on ministers expenses, but we wont hear harney commenting on that. its not news its just spin.

jimmmy

bigstar wrote: »

seriously, this is just more spin from the government in an effort to scare people into accepting cuts in the next budget. the IMF wont coming anywhere near ireland anytime soon.

really? If you had money would you lend this country money? Do you think it would ever be paid back ? At the moment its costing our govt 4.5% to borrow money for 10 years. ( and our govt has promised to reduce expenditure by 4 billion a year, + get our finances in order, just to get that rate ). Its cost Germany 3%. That a 50% difference in the rate of interest. We are perceived to be riskier, methinks.;)
If foreign institutions stopped lending the 25 billion our govt is currently borrowing just to keep going, what would our govt do ?

bigstar

bigstar wrote: »

seriously, this is just more spin from the government in an effort to scare people into accepting cuts in the next budget. the IMF wont coming anywhere near ireland anytime soon.

i couldnt see the IMF sanctioning Pr. Drumm's bonus either or looking too favourably on ministers expenses, but we wont hear harney commenting on that. its not news its just spin.

So you think we should continue borrowing as we are and end up spending 2/3 of government income on *interest* of these debts alone by 2013?

ardmacha

I think we need to look at education TBH

Good that you actually want to look at the facts.

Since the economy has collapsed we are going to see less people immigrating over here and will probably see a natural reduction in teacher/pupil ratio and might need all these new teachers the greens are demanding until we recover to growth as people have less children in a developed economy because they are generally more career focused.

This theory is not founded in fact. We will see less immigration, but only if there is a large amount of emigration and people take their children with them will there be a decline in the numbers. But most emigrants will be single 20 year olds. The numbers won't hit 3rd level for a while, but there isn't going to a decline in numbers.

We have the highest birthrate in the EU. We do not have the highest education spending in the EU.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0831/breaking31.htm

"The number of births registered in the State last year was the highest since the end of the 19th century, according to the latest data from the Central Statistics Office.

The figures, published today, show there were 75,065 births registered in 2008, the highest number since 1896 when there were 75,332 births registered in the 26 counties."

bigstar

i never said anything about what cuts should or shouldnt be made. i said this was an obvious attempt to scare the public. but believe harney if you want, ill see you in dustbowl post IMF ireland. should be fun times.

of course government expenditure will have to be reconciled with revenue, but i dont like the knee jerk reaction here and in the press that unless the greedy public sector fckers swallow cuts were all going under.

Noreen1

Does this 4 Billion reduction include the projected cost of NAMA?
If so, what percentage of the 4 Billion is NAMA costing?

It seems to me that we are being bombarded with information - but no detail?
Or have I just missed the detail, amidst all the political bickering that's going on?

I seem to remember rather a lot of prophecies about how "Brutal" the emergency Budget was going to be. This led to a huge sigh of relief from the sectors that were not affected - and led to the kind of Public vs Private sector bickering that has so effectively prevented any real constructive action/thought by the Electorate.

I suspect this Budget is is going to be truly brutal - and the Government is preparing us well in advance, in the hope of preventing mass protests come December.

What is needed now is a Coalition of ALL the Unions - together with some independent economists. If such a coalition could be arranged, then, an alternative economic strategy might actually be arrived at.

If we continue to bicker senselessly among ourselves, then the Political Establishment will continue to do what it has been doing best for the last number of years..... ie. Treat us like fools!

Noreen

Het-Field

Problem is the Social Welfare, and Public Sector bugests amount to a combined 55-65 Billion Euro.. Without adequate cuts the country will spiral into a unmanagable situation (if it is not in such a situation already), which will guarantee IMF intervention.

The public sector is overbloated. Sadly, unlike in 1996, when the PDs advocated a plan for re-deployment, re-alignment, and voluntary redundancies, with chances to diverify, upskill, and return to education, the country no longer has the money to do that. In stark terms, voluntary public sector redundancies, will simply send people to the unemployment line. Which means they will continue to be paid by the state, just at reduced levels.

The moster which has been created must be culled. However, culling it at this stage wont have anywhere near the impact it could have had in 1996/1997. At very least, I would like to see an independent report, with a true reflection

Social welfare must be carefully considered. An example of crap economic management was the decision to cull the Christmas bonus. I know that those who are reliant on social welfare would prefer a graduated cut, at a greater level, as opposed to a one off cut, which causes a greater hardship at a time when money is at a premium, and it would be guaranteed to be placed back into the economy. It is a disincentive to spend at a time which could be useful vis-a-vis job creation, and a relatively sharp pick up in sales.

In terms of the Health system, the 6 Billion Budget should be cut back by 2.5 Billion. This must occur on the back of a reorder of the HSE, which ensures it is not a monster organisation, which was created at the same time of Bertie's "socialist" phase, where any chance of redundancies was obliterated by his hubris.

Unfortunatly, the wanton waste, and overexpenditure on NDP projects, the HSE, E-voting etc will not be recoverable. However, it should be a lesson to future projects. It is not acceptable that because we were aflush with money, we should accept.

I would advocate a Supreme Court intervention vis-a-vis the Seanad, and if it is suspendable. Abolition can onl come by virtue of a plebacite, which will not be proffered by the Government, or opposition, who have too many friends sitting in it. The likely phasing out of the House of Lords in the UK should be a lesson to our Upper House. It serves far less of a purpose then the HOL, and there are far less educated people in the Seanad. It is now a rest-home for failed Dail candidates.

dan_d

I've flicked through this thread (and the Irish times, just to annoy myself) in the last hour, and I was all set for a rant, until I got to ghost_ie's comment, about the IMF coming in, making the cuts, FF blaming them, and then we vote FF back in.Stopped me cold, coz it's just so true!God, we're thick.
Back on topic however - I can't believe it's taken this long for our stupid ministers to come out and say "this is what we have to do". While I have nothing but contempt for Mary Harney, at the best of times, she is absolutely right.The timeframe mightn't be right (2 yrs, was it?) about when the IMF would come in - but I have spoken to several people in financial positions, both public and private in the last few months, and the general consensus is that if we don't get our act together and cut public spending, the IMF will come in. And they'll do it for us. And they will not listen to unions or worry about "social partnerships" or scratch anyone's back. Slash and burn will take on a whole new meaning.
You can call it scaremongering if you like I suppose...personally I'd just call the plain truth (not something we're used to hearing from the current gov. Amazing what it takes to get them to tell the truth). We need to stop being delusional here. We're all facing pay cuts.I have absolutely no doubt that the public service is going to find itself in flinders after the next budget.And there does need to be a sliding scale. I completely agree that it has GOT to start with the biggest cuts at the top, for every single person there. But it's got to happen. How on earth do people think we can possibly maintain this??That National Debt they spent the last 10 years driving down?? Well, (and I don't know specific numbers, so this is just an estimation), I'm guessing that if we continue the way we are, we'll just be right back to where we started before the Celtic Tiger. And undo the one small amount of good that came out of all this.
We no longer have the money to sustain our wages. I work in the private sector. Every single person I know has taken a min of 10% paycut, if they haven't lost their jobs.And it's "here's the paycut or there's the door". No negotiation at all. People can whinge all they like about the cost of living, but the point is that the cost of living will drop, as people have less and less money. And it is going to hurt a lot for a year or so, but it will happen. The one major problem is mortgages. The Gov have allowed the situation to develop where there are massive mortgages, so I do agree there needs to be some sort of system put in place to support these people (including myself, I might point out) who take pay cuts but still have huge mortgages.
Bottom line is we are being forewarned of what is certainly to come. Again, no doubt about that. The question is will we be big enough to stand up and deal with it, or are we going to run around listening to unions whinging and whining again. It's got to start substantially at the top, otherwise it will just not be credible.

_Kooli_

If the IMF come in im going.
If FF or the Greens are ever in again im going.

I think i'll be staying though, because neither of those 2 things are going to happen for a long long time.

Its just smoke and mirrors, FF style. Watch my right hand dance while the left hands picks your pocket.

jimmmy

Noreen1 wrote: »

I suspect this Budget is is going to be truly brutal - and the Government is preparing us well in advance, in the hope of preventing mass protests come December.

As the govt has hinted, it will be brutal in the long term unless there are brutal cuts in the public service in December...

Noreen1 wrote: »

What is needed now is a Coalition of ALL the Unions - together with some independent economists. If such a coalition could be arranged, then, an alternative economic strategy might actually be arrived at.

Its called congress, but what do they know about economics + the common good ?
Go ahead good luck trying to find an alternative economic strategy, but be aware of the damage the unions have done to our economy by arriving with the highest known p.s. pay in the world.

_Kooli_

jimmmy wrote: »

As the govt has hinted, it will be brutal in the long term unless there are brutal cuts in the public service in December...



Its called congress, but what do they know about economics + the common good ?
Go ahead good luck trying to find an alternative economic strategy, but be aware of the damage the unions have done to our economy by arriving with the highest known p.s. pay in the world.

Its going to need more than public sector cuts.
I think we all know this, but we try to lay it all on the public sectors door.
Dont delude yourself. Try as you might to make sure the public sector take all our pain for us - and you are trying by god. The public sector wont be the only ones getting hit.

Diarmuid

Noreen1 wrote: »

What is needed now is a Coalition of ALL the Unions - together with some independent economists. If such a coalition could be arranged, then, an alternative economic strategy might actually be arrived at.

There are plenty of independent economists already giving their opinion on the situation. The problem is, their opinion doesn't sit well with the union view so you're not going to see any grand coalition any time soon.

Also, the unions cannot be part of the alternative strategy because they are part of the current strategy that got us in the mess.

jimmmy

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Its going to need more than public sector cuts.
I think we all know this, but we try to lay it all on the public sectors door.
Dont delude yourself. Try as you might to make sure the public sector take all our pain for us - and you are trying by god. The public sector wont be the only ones getting hit.

Considering the economic apartheid system at the moment, its about time they ( the public sector ) started taking a hit - a real hit, not a deferral of pay in to a pension levy. Why should they have better pay, pensions, job security, hours worked, etc ?

_Kooli_

jimmmy wrote: »

Considering the economic apartheid system at the moment, its about time they ( the public sector ) started taking a hit - a real hit, not a deferral of pay in to a pension levy. Why should they have better pay, pensions, job security, hours worked, etc ?

Actually they dont.
I know thats a bitter pill to swallow, but there is no hard like for like comparisons of positions in the Irish private sector and Irish public sector anywhere.

ie nurse with 25 years experience (public) vs nurse with 25 years experience (private)
or
IT manager of 30 people with 15 years experience vs the same in the private sector

or something like that

If there is, post a link.

Its too broad comparing whole sectors. It just doesnt work. Because you and i cannot compare our own or similar situations with those in the public sector.

I for one would not like to have the equivalent job with the experience i have in the public sector (one of my friends has the very same job in the public sector). They can keep it.

But we are all going to suffer. Make no mistake. I can see the minimum wage and the dole being taxed soon too.

cyclopath2001

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Its just smoke and mirrors, FF style. Watch my right hand dance while the left hands picks your pocket.

+1, it's helping distract from the great bank bailout and NAMA swindle.

thebman

_Kooli_ wrote: »

But we are all going to suffer. Make no mistake. I can see the minimum wage and the dole being taxed soon too.

These two things are going to have to happen alright.

Wages across all government departments need to be cut in some way if they have not already been cut (I'd say some have, some contractors are gone).

One dance of death is contracts with private companies that if they go could kill those companies. Government needs to look at the tax take from that company and see if it is actually making a profit overall in tax take by keeping that contract as the smaller other contracts that company might have might make it worth keeping that contract to keep people off the dole queues.

We'll have to wait and see. No point worrying about it but the problem with building up to it like FF are is this will send everyone into don't spend, harsh budget coming mode and the economy will continue to suffer.

Amhran Nua

Why would anyone tax the dole? Its paid for out of the tax coffers, just reduce it.

_Kooli_

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Why would anyone tax the dole? Its paid for out of the tax coffers, just reduce it.

Easier to tax it. Its about perception. Tell them they are getting €200 but there is 10% tax deducted so hand them over €180.

Tax it and it is seen as doing good for the country. Reduce it and they'll be all on about human rights and all that crap. Net effect is the same though.

Now they can all say to the dole officer - "I pay your wages you know."