The Four Nations.

toomevara

Four Nations coming up pretty soon. Going to be interesting to see if England have made any strides since their disastrous WC outing. And can the Roos take revenge on the Kiwis (who are fielding a sadly depleted team) after their shock WC final defeat. The question for France has got be be can they step up to the plate and make the grade? Still think it should have been a 5 nations with Ireland in the mix....anyhoo...

Fixtures

Fri 23rd Oct KO: 20:00, Keepmoat Stadium
England v France

Sat 24th Oct KO: 20:00, Twickenham Stoop Stadium
Australia v New Zealand

Sat 31st Oct KO: 17:00 (GMT), Stade Ernest Wallon
France v New Zealand

Sat 31st Oct KO: 14:30, DW Stadium
England v Australia

NOVEMBER
Sat 7th Nov KO: 18:00, Galpharm Stadium
England v New Zealand

Sat 7th Nov KO: 14:30, Charlety Stadium
France v Australia

Sat 14th Nov KO: 19:30, Elland Road
tbc v tbc

*All games on Sky.

**incidentally England are having a warm up game against a Crusaders-heavy Wales at the brewery field on saturday(Oct 17th) at 6:30. (On Sky). Hope Wales manage a better showing than their last effort against the English when they were on the receiving end of a 70+ drubbing. Big interest in the game in wales with excellent advance ticket sales.

Dozen Wicked Words

Pessimistically I think whoever is in the Tournament, Ireland or not, it will be a case of vying for one final place with the honour of getting beaten by Australia.

I think after their abysmal last tournament performance, if England don't make the final, and put up a decent fight, maybe Tony Smith should be given more time with his Wolves Squad.

Dozen Wicked Words

England team to play France: S Briscoe (Hull KR); T Briscoe (Hull), L Smith (Leeds), M Shenton (Castleford), R Hall (Leeds); D McGuire (Leeds), R Myler (Salford); A Morley (Warrington), S Moore (Huddersfield), J Peacock (Leeds, capt), G Ellis (Wests Tigers), S Burgess (Bradford), K Sinfield (Leeds).

Subs: K Eastmond (St Helens), J Roby (St Helens), J Graham (St Helens), B Westwood (Warrington).

No place for Louie McCarthy-Scarsbrook which is a shame though not unexpected. What is strange though IMO is the omission of Sam Tomkins who actually had a very good game last time out.

toomevara

dooferoaks wrote: »

is the omission of Sam Tomkins who actually had a very good game last time out.

Absolutely true. The Wales game was the Tomkins show..one of the few england players who had anything like a decent game. With the kiwis fielding a weakened side and France not looking great I reckon the Roos won't exactly be quivering in their boots. I'm heading down to the stoop to see the Oz/NZ game next weekend. Had hoped it was going to be a cracker but the Kiwis are not looking strong...

AdeT

toomevara wrote: »

Absolutely true. The Wales game was the Tomkins show..one of the few england players who had anything like a decent game. With the kiwis fielding a weakened side and France not looking great I reckon the Roos won't exactly be quivering in their boots. I'm heading down to the stoop to see the Oz/NZ game next weekend. Had hoped it was going to be a cracker but the Kiwis are not looking strong...

Tomkins looked very good last week but I think he's more of a stand-off and Smith wanted a bit of experience in the halves rather than going with two of tomkins, eastmond and myler. At Wigan they have Leuluai to do the organising and maybe TS thought that he'd need McGuire's experience. There are more than a couple of fans over here suggesting TS's allegience to Myler but I think people forget what a talent he is. Absolutely feel for Tomkins but if Myler doesn't show the form he needs to on Friday then he'll be dropped for an eager Sam Tomkins.

Scary to think that the Kiwis are looking weaker than usual when they have guys like Matai, Marshall, Fien, Lima, Luke, Moimoi, Pritchard and Blair (better at prop) knocking about. I'd love it to be a close game though. NZ are particularly strong up front and will hopefully rattle the Aussie pack. Otherwise it'll be a try fest for Morris, Hayne, Slater - if it even gets past Hodges and Inglis.

toomevara

AdeT wrote: »

. Otherwise it'll be a try fest for Morris, Hayne, Slater - if it even gets past Hodges and Inglis.

QFT, just getting to see these guys play in the flesh at the weekend is going to make my year. Just hope its more competitive than the Anzac day outing.

Re: England, also interesting to see Briscoe getting an airing in a white shirt against the french at Donny. Also be interesting to see how Eastmond goes.

AdeT

toomevara wrote: »

QFT, just getting to see these guys play in the flesh at the weekend is going to make my year. Just hope its more competitive than the Anzac day outing.

Re: England, also interesting to see Briscoe getting an airing in a white shirt against the french at Donny. Also be interesting to see where Eastmond goes.

Agree with you on Briscoe (not sure which you're talking about but i agree if either as they're both quality). TS may have been slightly lucky with getting a chance to pull tom up as Fox hasn't been going all too well.

Edited the Eastmond sentence...where will he play when he comes on? Roby'll alternate with Moore. It's strange for a coach to cover the halves on the bench as they tend to be covered by one of your dummy halves. Does that mean he's covering the whole backline? Usually you'd have 3 forwards on the bench and a hooker. This strategy might work for TS as Eastmond fresh against anyone will cause bother but if there's (touch wood it doesn't happen) an injury to a forward early on then the rest of them will be asked to play long stints. While Sinfield is a skillful player, if players become injured he's not the type of loose to take a few hit ups to cover for them; more of another link man.

I would have liked to see Wilkin in the 17 but that's just preference...

toomevara

AdeT wrote: »

Agree with you on Briscoe (not sure which you're talking about but i agree if either as they're both quality).

Agree with you regarding both Briscoes, but meant Tom, had a good game on debut against the Welsh, not too much to do mind, but took his tries well when the opportunities arose. I would imagine, though you can't take it for granted, that the French will provide a tougher test tomorrow night.

AdeT

Actually starting to get giddy about this comp - regardless of what people say about it!

England v France
I'm going for England by 20 points.
France are dangerous and if their forwards go as well as they can then Bosc is one of the best SH/SO in the the world - particularly at attacking the line. Catalans end of season form should give them confidence but I think it's easy to underestimate the role of Greg Bird in that run (best player in SL in my opinion). Savage pack, a couple of excellent backs in Baille, GShields, Pelo and Duport but I think England are a touch more rounded across the park and their bench could cause mayhem

NZ v Australia
I'll go for Oz by about 14 points.
A couple of real world class athletes in the Kiwis team. Benji Marshall is probably the most exciting stand off in the world; hopefully he is well supplemented by Isaac Luke. In their backs Matai is a hard and physical center and Hohaia has plenty of experience but against them...Slater (world's best FB) Hodges & Inglis (big, quick, good feet, strong, great defenders) Hayne (form player in NRL, maybe 3rd best FB in the world) Morris (could go v well, strong winger and has held off some big challengers). Thurston and Lockyer are untouchable in the halves - they have everything.

There'll be some huge hits up front. Moimoi and Lima will make Petero and Hannant work hard. Watmough is maybe the best backrower in the world and hits like a truck. I think Australias forwards in reserve might make the difference along with Kurt Gidley (maybe the 2nd best FB in the world).

In my opinion some of the best rugby players (either code) in the last ten years will be on show. Guys who have all the attributes.

I wouldn't miss either game...

toomevara

AdeT wrote: »

I think it's easy to underestimate the role of Greg Bird in that run (best player in SL in my opinion)..

Agreed re: Bird's role in the Catalans late season surge. An excellent player just a pity he's such a colossal muppet off-field! Can't warm to the man and imo he should not have been playing in the SL after his conviction, and certainly not as captain of the Catalans.

Wouldn't characterise him as the best player in the comp. Up there, granted. But for me one player stood out head and shoulders above all the rest this year, Saint's James Graham...an astonishingly good player, huge work rate, appetite, skill, most carries, hardest yards made of any player this year...a beast of a man.

Stev_o

If Tomkins was started id say England would put a extra 10 or so points on this French side.

AdeT

Stev_o wrote: »

If Tomkins was started id say England would put a extra 10 or so points on this French side.

Maybe so but we won't know until we see how Myler goes - he backs up a break as well as or better than Tompkins; he doesn't break the line as often as Sam though. I do think though that Tomkins is a Stand Off and when it came down to the decision between him and McGuire McGuire had to get the nod to brnig a touch more experience to the backline. Tompkins is the future at 6 though.

Re: Toomevara. I agree, Graham has an engine & desire for work that no other forward in super league seems to have at the moment - at least not to his consistent level. JP and Morley are a scary proposition though. Graham seems to have found a good level between his youthful hunger for work and the experience he has gained in that last couple of years at the top. I've had mates say they think he might burn himself out (not too unline Fielden seems to have done) but I think he's a pretty durable fella. Saints could do with a prop to save him some of the dirty work and use him for his (underrated by many) footballing skills. Fozzard might do that job...

toomevara

Stev_o wrote: »

If Tomkins was started id say England would put a extra 10 or so points on this Catalans side.

FYP Steve_o....;)

Stev_o

toomevara wrote: »

FYP Steve_o....;)

Harsh

Stev_o

France leading 12 -4 knew this would happen with us writing them off.

WakeyTyke

Take a bow Tony Smith, you have somehow managed to pick an England team that can be outplayed by a depleted Catalan Dragons :eek:

amacachi

Missed most of the match but just caught a horrible challenge by the French with 2 minutes to go. Rightfully sent off.

Stev_o

Here's hoping the weather holds up tonight, really looking forward to this match should be a belter.

Stev_o

Some of the hits by NZ would cripple people lovely to watch

WakeyTyke

Great intensity and committment, wonderful to watch. We are certainly watching one of the Four Nation's winners:D

Stev_o

Lovely try by Morris had everything in it though id guess that the final pass was forward.

WakeyTyke

Very even first half.

New Zealand are showing that their WC victory was certainly no fluke result.

Both teams look capable of a massacre against England!

suppafly

Here a straming link if anyone needs one

http://www.stream2watch.com/watch/1102/1/watch-online-Rugby-Australia-vs--New-Zealand-live-stream

Stev_o

Issac Luke fluffs the conversion after Sau's try how crucial will that have been.

Stev_o

What a try by Hohaia to get the Kiwi's back in the game. Brilliant stuff this.

Stev_o

Brilliant game with both sides showing huge desire to come back from the brink fantastic stuff atmosphere looked incredible aswell.

WakeyTyke

Fair result in end, although Inglis off-load for the last Aussie try looked suspiciously forward.

Look forward to the rematch in the Final;)

couerdelion

I wasn't really looking forward to the four nations and felt it had been woefully under played and promoted (why does the RFL seem so good at keeping RL a secret from the general population?).

The first two games though have got the mouth watering in anticipation at the rest of the fixtures. England need to raise their game a fair bit if they are going to challenge, but its hard to look good and play with any tye of intensity when they were clearly going to beat the French. If the Aussies start putting it up them I expect them to respond in kind. wo good packs but I think Burgess will have an immense game just to put down a marker for the NRL move. How great a player is Inglis too? Will England have the capacity to shut him down?

The kiwis looked like they were playing well above themselves and I aren't sure they could keep that intensity going for 4 matches. Still ui Fui Moi Moi will take some stopping and I was impressed by the kiwi No. 17 Waerea-Hargreaves who came on and put everything into his tackles.

Bring it on!

WakeyTyke

Whilst England's pack may well be able to hold their own against the Aussie pack, I can only see impending doom for the rest of the team.

I really cannot see any available England half-back combination that will cause the slightest problem to Thurston-Lockyer, even if they aren't firing on all cylinders as was the case against NZ. Can see Lockyer actually having a field-day opening up England's defensive line at will. This could be a very sharp learning curve for Myler, Eastmond or Tompkins.

It is through the centres that I expect the Aussies to do the most damage. There is no doubt that the speed and power of Inglis and Hodges is going to hurt the English three-quarters. Whilst they may be able to contain them initially the Aussie's superior fitness will see them dominating in the second-half - if not before.

Expect the Aussie's to win by 30 points.

toomevara

One of the best games of rugby, either code, I've ever seen in the flesh. Skill levels out of this world and absolutely no holds barred. Great bearpit atmosphere at the stoop as well, God these Aussies and Kiwis really do not like each other......massive games from any number of players, but for me Fuifui Moimoi was in another class. Brilliant game, just got me tickets for the final at Elland road, if its a repeat of that game, as looks likely, well, bring it on...

As an aside I'd have to say the gulf between the NH/SH game was glaringly evident. A real step up.

AdeT

WakeyTyke wrote: »

I really cannot see any available England half-back combination that will cause the slightest problem to Thurston-Lockyer, even if they aren't firing on all cylinders as was the case against NZ.

True enough that Thurston and Lockyer are the best combination in RL and that Myler & McGuire don't offer all t&L do...but...Halves aren't like other positions where you take on your opposite number. It's not up to your 6 & 7 to beat theirs, it's their job to try and pick apart the defence and steer the team. Myler will probably be busier looking for tired Aussie defenders to go at.

My fear for this game lies in the Eng centres. Shenton and Smith, good players, just don't have the physical presence on Inglis and Hodges. I know size isn't everything in the backs but their ability to get over the top of a tackle to offer an off-load may be a real headache. Should Smith consider playing Ellis at centre to offset the size difference? I'd say no as he's one of the best back-rowers in the world. He has played out there in the past though.

Tickets bought for Wigan on Saturday - a few beers and a pie at the DW are in order. Have BBC just managed to pull off a result by getting this game live? Oz MUST win after their draw and Eng are still pretty embarrassed after last years WC. Could be a corker.

toomevara

AdeT wrote: »

Have BBC just managed to pull off a result by getting this game live? Oz MUST win after their draw and Eng are still pretty embarrassed after last years WC. Could be a corker.

Astonishingly, and quite out of left field, yes!..Coverage starts at 2:10 on BBC1..John Kear's in the commentary box too.

I worry for England...having seen what the Aussies are capable of at first hand, coming in cold, with no warm up against a massively physical, fired up, committed Kiwi side. I reckon England are in for very,very torrid time to say the least. The Roo's ring-rustiness was evident at the Stoop, with the Aussie combinations just not quite firing giving the kiwis that extra half second, but I reckon come the weekend they'll be right in the zone. One thing's for certain, England start like they did against the French and it'll be all over in the first quarter...

AdeT

toomevara wrote: »

Astonishingly, and quite out of left field, yes!..Coverage starts at 2:10 on BBC1..John Kear's in the commentary box too.

I worry for England...having seen what the Aussies are capable of at first hand, coming in cold, with no warm up against a massively physical, fired up, committed Kiwi side. I reckon England are in for very,very torrid time to say the least. The Roo's ring-rustiness was evident at the Stoop, with the Aussie combinations just not quite firing giving the kiwis that extra half second, but I reckon come the weekend they'll be right in the zone. One thing's for certain, England start like they did against the French and it'll be all over in the first quarter...

Kear is one of the few who talks sense and comes across well - pretty important when RL is so rarely on the Beeb

I agree that the Roos are going to be sharper and tighter this week. Fingers crossed the Wigan crowd gets behind England and give them a lift. Very intrigued to see the team selections. There were some suggesting that TS might brnig in Tompkins for the big games but I just don't see it happening. Myler went well at the weekend.

I wonder if Gaz Ellis might have an inside line on some of Sheens' structures in attack and defence. Any help would be welcome i'm sure!!!

toomevara

AdeT wrote: »

I wonder if Gaz Ellis might have an inside line on some of Sheens' structures in attack and defence. Any help would be welcome i'm sure!!!

Good point and while we're on the subject, if England could find twelve more like Ellis, they'd put the fear of God into anyone. I thought he was one of the main reasons The French encounter didn't turn into a PNG style debacle. Fabulous player and a real leader on the field.

Thought Myler was alright, but didn't look as convincing as I'd hoped. Anyway fingers crossed for the Wigan game and here's hoping we get to see England in the Final at Elland.

WakeyTyke

AdeT wrote: »

Kear is one of the few who talks sense and comes across well - pretty important when RL is so rarely on the Beeb

I agree that the Roos are going to be sharper and tighter this week. Fingers crossed the Wigan crowd gets behind England and give them a lift. Very intrigued to see the team selections. There were some suggesting that TS might brnig in Tompkins for the big games but I just don't see it happening. Myler went well at the weekend.

I wonder if Gaz Ellis might have an inside line on some of Sheens' structures in attack and defence. Any help would be welcome i'm sure!!!

John Kear is RL's equivalent of Harry Rednapp, the man eats, sleeps and breathes RL and is adored by Wakefield fans.

Whilst Myler showed that he is sharp at spotting an opening I fear that the Aussies will target him in defence, we will badly miss Burrow's bravery in defence. Likewise if Tompkins plays, although his defence is good I can't see him holding back the Aussie's combination of pace and power. Tompkins does offer a better kicking option which generally was very poor against France.

couerdelion

Am I the only one who isn't keen on Myler?

I thought in the first half of the season he was fantastic and was going to become a real superstar, but as soon as talk about a transfer surfaced his form dropped.

In the France match back in June he was outstanding, last weekend though ordinary.

I know he's only young but surely we should be picking on form? Bring the youngsters into the squad and on the bench but Burrow should have been in the 13.

AdeT

couerdelion wrote: »

Am I the only one who isn't keen on Myler?

I thought in the first half of the season he was fantastic and was going to become a real superstar, but as soon as talk about a transfer surfaced his form dropped.

In the France match back in June he was outstanding, last weekend though ordinary.

I know he's only young but surely we should be picking on form? Bring the youngsters into the squad and on the bench but Burrow should have been in the 13.

Burrow hasn't had a great season and I think was left out for that reason.

I know what you mean about Myler's form but I think once it was made clear he would be moving on from Salford they pushed him to the fringes; the suggestion was that he was walking away from the club who had invested most in him (he was actually a Widnes product). I think Martin Offiah is to blame for his dropping, and dealt with the prospect of Myler moving on like a money hungry football agent. If this is to become the norm for young players there may be trouble ahead.

My opinion no Myler is, he's the most talented young (out-and-out) 7 in England and will be their half back for years to come. I think TS is maybe just putting him in for a while and giving him the opoprtunity to develop ni the international game. Tompkins is an unbelievable talent and will probably be the Stand-off for England for years to come. In my opinion Eastmond is the most all-round talented of the three...he just needs to settle into a position with Saints. Once he's done that maybe we'll see just how good he is

Stev_o

Aussie squad is up

BBC wrote:

Australia: Slater; B Morris, Inglis, Hodges, Hayne; Lockyer (capt), Thurston; Civoniceva, Smith, Hannant, Watmough, Gallen, Hindmarsh. Replacements (from): Farah, White, Lewis, Shillington, Waterhouse, Gidley.

Anyone else think that Michael Jennings should of got a look in over Hodges? Thought Hodges was fairly poor agaisnt the Kiwi's.

AdeT

Stev_o wrote: »

Aussie squad is up



Anyone else think that Michael Jennings should of got a look in over Hodges? Thought Hodges was fairly poor agaisnt the Kiwi's.

Jennings is a top player and plays quite loose. That doesn't necessarily go with the Roos' approach to RL. I'd love to see him in there somewhere - he'd at least bring some excitement to procedings.

WakeyTyke

couerdelion wrote: »

Am I the only one who isn't keen on Myler?

I thought in the first half of the season he was fantastic and was going to become a real superstar, but as soon as talk about a transfer surfaced his form dropped.

In the France match back in June he was outstanding, last weekend though ordinary.

I know he's only young but surely we should be picking on form? Bring the youngsters into the squad and on the bench but Burrow should have been in the 13.

Agree totally. I can understand the desire to develop a young England team for the next WC but they are throwing the baby out with the bath water with the current selection policy.

If the team was being selected on form, as laughingly suggested by Tony Smith, then there is no way that Myler would be in ahead of Burrow or Brough.

The inexperience of Myler, Tompkins or Eastmond will be cruelly exploited by Sheens team.

AdeT

WakeyTyke wrote: »

Agree totally. I can understand the desire to develop a young England team for the next WC but they are throwing the baby out with the bath water with the current selection policy.

If the team was being selected on form, as laughingly suggested by Tony Smith, then there is no way that Myler would be in ahead of Burrow or Brough.

The inexperience of Myler, Tompkins or Eastmond will be cruelly exploited by Sheens team.

Smith has been hypocritical with suggesting he was selecting solely on form. However, Burrow's form has been no better than any of the three young players. And, I know by your name I'll be unpopular for this, I don't think Brough offers enough to play internation RL. He's an excellent SL player and steers his team around very effectively, but you need to have that extra spark to make the transition and I just don't think he has it.

The three younger players would be targetted by Sheens but they've been targeted all season in the league. Eastmond has also played in a Grand Final in front of 65,000 ish fans so can handle the big occasion. While I'm currently more in the Myler camp as he's a more out-and-out 7, this weekend may be the ideal game to bring Tompkins into international RL in front of his home crowd on a ground he knows very well.

AdeT

So the teams are up. I half-surprised Tompkins has come in but it's the perfect set-up for him. Absolutely nothing to lose.

That English pack is huge. Some big guys with good work-rates there. Maybe Burgess will make an impact off the bench. Not surprised to see only one utility player on the bench with three forwards.

Earlier kick-off than I thought (dunno why! shoud've looked at the tickets) so it'll be walkabout in Wigan for 12:30 for a few VBs and a bit of banter with the Aussies.

I'm not overly confident for the result but I'm very happy with that pack. My preference would be to have Purdham at loose, i think he's class, but he's injured and Sinfield's kicking game will, hopefully, turn the Oz back three around and gain some territory for England.

Dozen Wicked Words

Terrible first half from England, they will have to beat the Kiwis by some distance to stand a chance of making the final. Australia have played well, mostly because England have let them.

ednwireland

watching it with my eyes closed terrible game from england

Stev_o

Seriously i can't see why Smith is constantly picking McGuire at this stage his international form is rubbish compared to his Leeds form. Tomkins and Eastmond have some energy and pace when playing with eachother.

ednwireland

better 2nd half but england still made too many mistakes

toomevara

The most appalling cliche of all, so here goes; the classic game of two halves...England started like rabbits caught in headlights, which tends to happen an awful lot with the Aussies...an inferiority complex? After the first quarter I thought things were going to get ugly on a biblical scale, but England seemed to decide the aussies were human after all and stepped up, found the pace and ended up playing very well, thank you very much...

Tomkins was huge and more than justified his selection, Gaz Ellis is a man mountain (in general the pack were great), and Graham was instrumental in the fightback. If England can overcome their fear of the Aussies (too much respect perhaps?) they can beat them in the final. I'm tipping them to edge the Kiwis (just) next weekend....

toomevara

France 12 New Zealand 62. Oh dear. more grist to my 'Should've been Ireland' mill......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/8334785.stm

Stev_o

toomevara wrote: »

France 12 New Zealand 62. Oh dear. more grist to my 'Should've been Ireland' mill......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/8334785.stm

I guess but the French have at least French players while our team is bit more 1980's soccer style Irish:p

amacachi

Also I have to admit I can't see us having done any better.

Stev_o

Looks like we won't be involved next year either

BBC wrote:

PNG seal 2010 Four Nations berth
David Mead
Mead starred for Papua New Guinea at the Lloyd Robson Oval

Papua New Guinea qualified for the 2010 Four Nations series with a 42-14 win over the Cook Islands in the Pacific Cup final in Port Moresby.

The hosts dominated from the start to establish a 20-10 half-time lead.

They raced away after the interval thanks to a hat-trick of tries from Gold Coast Titans youngster David Mead.

Sheffield Eagles centre Menzie Yere also capped a tremendous tournament with two tries as a young Cook Islands team were outclassed by the Kumuls.

PNG will take the place of France in the Four Nations for 2010, lining up alongside Australia, New Zealand and England.

Kumuls captain John Wilshere, the Salford full-back or winger, said: "This means so much to all our boys and everyone here in this country.

"Rugby league is our national sport, we love it, and next year we're going to be playing in the Four Nations and that's a massive boost for Papua New Guinea."

PNG coach Adrian Lam said: "I don't think it's really sunk in yet that we're in the Four Nations but we're excited about it and we'll get our heads around it soon enough."