Dangerous sharks in Ireland?

blackbelt

I am a regular visitor to IWDG website and I couldn't believe it when I read the information at the following link.

http://www.iwdg.ie/iscope/strandings/details.asp?id=3435

I know we have blue sharks in the north west and parts of the west while the UK has Mako sharks but I wonder what type of shark could have done this to the dolphin?

Didn't think dolphins were at any particular threat from sharks off the Irish coast.I'd understand this to be the case off the coast of the America's,Africa and Australia where you'd have bigger sharks like Great Whites,Tiger Sharks,Bull Sharks,Hammerhead and White Tips.

Pigeon Reaper

A Porbeagle scavaging might have done that. They are known to be around the coast.

fryup

Pigeon Reaper wrote: »

A Porbeagle scavaging might have done that. They are known to be around the coast.

are Porbeagle dangerous to humans?

blackbelt

fryup wrote: »

are Porbeagle dangerous to humans?

I read up about it and it has not been "incriminated" in any "unprovoked attacks".

That is not to say they wouldn't.I'd tend to agree with Pigeon Reaper that this is likely but it could be possible that larger species of sharks could be moving into Irish coastal waters.Leatherback and loggerhead turtles have been documented in Irish waters now.

Kess73

Blue, Thresher, Porbeagle, and Mako sharks have all been recorded in Irish waters. Of late we have has six gill and seven gill sharks in Irish waters, the latter being caught off of the Kerry coast and the former off of the Clare coast.



In theory every one of those could do damage to a human, with some of them more than able to kill a human.

But a bull is also more than able to kill a human and so can many dogs, in fact you would be more at risk from dogs imho.


To go back to one of the sharks I mentioned; the seven gill sharks that have been seen off the Kerry coast. These guys interest me a lot in that they are in our waters. They are one of the favourite prey species for the Great White Shark in the atlantic, and where you have one you normally get the other at some point.

Our water temps would support a GW, and to be honest, even if they were out there in the deeper waters off of our coasts, would be even notice?

I have gone cage diving to look at GWs in many places, and in many water temps, from the warmer waters of the coast of Africa to the bloody cold waters near the Farallon Islands near San Fran, so I have no doubts at all about our water temps being very tolerable for a GW.

Irishmarinelife

Something similar here, in this case it was probably a porpoise and the damage inflicted by possibly by bottlenose dolphins or post mortem by dogs or other land mammals, could not rule out a shark though.
Interesting accounts of bottlenose attacks in recent years on porpoises, they are certainly capable of aggresive behaviour at times, but in this case on a striped dolphin probably not, they target lone porpoises.

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http://irishmarinelife.com

sheesh

if it was already dead it could be a large tope too.

you would get them around Shannon Estuary.

Clare used to be famous for Porbeagle Shark as well. and would be well able to kill a man, blues Shark would too (if you were out in open water they are supposed to slowly circle for ages) and large tope are said to be capable of taking your arm off.

Kess73

When the water temps are up, Tope can be found as far up the Estuary as to be level with Askeaton in County Limerick.

Have caught some beauties at Kilteery Pier in County Limerick and at Tarbert Pier in Tarbert, County Kerry.

nellumr

Kess73 wrote: »

Blue, Thresher, Porbeagle, and Mako sharks have all been recorded in Irish waters. Of late we have has six gill and seven gill sharks in Irish waters, the latter being caught off of the Kerry coast and the former off of the Clare coast.



In theory every one of those could do damage to a human, with some of them more than able to kill a human.

But a bull is also more than able to kill a human and so can many dogs, in fact you would be more at risk from dogs imho.


To go back to one of the sharks I mentioned; the seven gill sharks that have been seen off the Kerry coast. These guys interest me a lot in that they are in our waters. They are one of the favourite prey species for the Great White Shark in the atlantic, and where you have one you normally get the other at some point.

Our water temps would support a GW, and to be honest, even if they were out there in the deeper waters off of our coasts, would be even notice?

I have gone cage diving to look at GWs in many places, and in many water temps, from the warmer waters of the coast of Africa to the bloody cold waters near the Farallon Islands near San Fran, so I have no doubts at all about our water temps being very tolerable for a GW.

For great whites you need something like a large seal population.

Galvasean

nellumr wrote: »

For great whites you need something like a large seal population.

Like Howth? :P
seriously though, in recent years there have been unconfirmed sightings of great whites in Britain. However, they may be mistaken porbeagles, which are close relatives of teh great white.

I'd say great whites have been about in these parts (occasionaly) for a while now. The fact that they are gigantotherms means they can survive in cold or warm waters and there could be a reasonable food supply (seals and six gills) to sustain the occasional travelling great white.

Kess73

nellumr wrote: »

For great whites you need something like a large seal population.

No for great whites you need a food source. It does not have to be seals. GWs in different parts of the planet tend to have totally different main food sources, and in the atlantic that main food source just happens to be the six gill shark as well as tuna.


We have a decent seal population in Ireland but an even bigger small dolphin population, which is something else that atlantic GWs feed upon.


Now I don't think that our coastal waters has a large popultion of great whites, but I do think that it is more than fair to say that they have been in Irish waters, and given that they are in the Atlantic, in the African waters below Ireland and in the Mediterranean sea, around Italy in particular, then it would be foolhardy to dismiss the idea of them passing through our waters given that they are living in every direction from Ireland. Some may dismiss the idea of them being able to survive North of Ireland, but some of the largest Great white populations and the some of largest specimens are found in the waters around the Farallon Islands, which has water temps far lower than in the waters above the North of this country.

They also thrive in the Australian, African, and Mexican waters where the temp is much higher.

blackbelt

Kess73 wrote: »

No for great whites you need a food source. It does not have to be seals. GWs in different parts of the planet tend to have totally different main food sources, and in the atlantic that main food source just happens to be the six gill shark as well as tuna.


We have a decent seal population in Ireland but an even bigger small dolphin population, which is something else that atlantic GWs feed upon.


Now I don't think that our coastal waters has a large popultion of great whites, but I do think that it is more than fair to say that they have been in Irish waters, and given that they are in the Atlantic, in the African waters below Ireland and in the Mediterranean sea, around Italy in particular, then it would be foolhardy to dismiss the idea of them passing through our waters given that they are living in every direction from Ireland. Some may dismiss the idea of them being able to survive North of Ireland, but some of the largest Great white populations and the some of largest specimens are found in the waters around the Farallon Islands, which has water temps far lower than in the waters above the North of this country.

They also thrive in the Australian, African, and Mexican waters where the temp is much higher.

This post really sums up the chances that they could frequent our waters or at least pass through.Ireland has a very large dolphin and porpoise population along with smaller sharks,tuna and game fish like ling and some swordfish etc.

What is to say they could not predate on large sharks such as the basking shark too.The sightings off the coast of Cornwall are more than likely mako sharks or thresher sharks but if GW sharks can live off the Farallone Islands,they could certainly live off Ireland.Not withstanding the Farallon Islands has a huge seal population.

All of this could be happening out in the Atlantic Sea off the north,west and south and off the Irish Sea without anybody knowing.

Kess73

blackbelt wrote: »

This post really sums up the chances that they could frequent our waters or at least pass through.Ireland has a very large dolphin and porpoise population along with smaller sharks,tuna and game fish like ling and some swordfish etc.

What is to say they could not predate on large sharks such as the basking shark too.The sightings off the coast of Cornwall are more than likely mako sharks or thresher sharks but if GW sharks can live off the Farallone Islands,they could certainly live off Ireland.Not withstanding the Farallon Islands has a huge seal population.

All of this could be happening out in the Atlantic Sea off the north,west and south and off the Irish Sea without anybody knowing.

Your post is quite timely with the pictures from Australia today of the 10 foot Great White that had a huge chunk bitten out of it by what people think could be a 6m to 7m Great White.


The Farallon Islands does have a huge seal population but it also has a large whale population, is quite heavy in terms of large shoal fish, and has a large seabird population also.

Interestingly the waters around the Farallon Islands gets visited a number of times per year by large pods of Killer Whale, which generally causes the waters there to practically clear out of Great Whites.

It has to go down as my favourite spot to cage dive. I have done so in Mexico, in other parts of California, in Africa, and in Oz, but none matched the Farallon Island experience, as although I saw bigger individual sharks in African waters, there is nowhere that has such a population of consistently big Great Whites as the Farallons.

The first time you come face to face with a 17 or 18 footer through the cage, it is like being in the presence of something majestic whose size on paper does no justice to it's size up close and personal. The different personality quirks that they have make them a very interesting fish. Some are very confident, some are almost shy, some are aggressive and you know very quickly about those girls when they hit the cage.

Also when in the Farallon waters you get to see whales, seals and many other types of marine life that you would not get to see so well elsewhere.

I would love to see cage diving brought in over here, as it is a great way to spend a day, and while we cannot gaurantee a GW in our waters, we have a large amount of life on our coastlines that could be viewed from cages.

recedite

Fascinating account of cage diving there. The question is , then, why haven't we got GWs and Orcas here. They both seem capable of migrating from northern to southern hemispheres to habitats similar to what we have here. Neither are particularly shy about being seen near the shore, so I don't believe they are out there, but only in "the deep".
Maybe its our smell.

Kess73

recedite wrote: »

Fascinating account of cage diving there. The question is , then, why haven't we got GWs and Orcas here. They both seem capable of migrating from northern to southern hemispheres to habitats similar to what we have here. Neither are particularly shy about being seen near the shore, so I don't believe they are out there, but only in "the deep".
Maybe its our smell.

Ireland has a healthy population of Killer whale that pass through our waters, and even had three of them that swam up the Lee and itnto Cork city a few years ago.

Orca are seen all year round in Irish waters so I don't see how you can say that you do not believe they are out there.

The West coast of Ireland and the South coast have regular sighting of pods, and last July a well known Scottish pod came down the West coast.


Glad to see that you think that Great Whites are not shy about being seen close to shore, when in fact in many parts of the world they are. The regularity at which they get spotted near a shoreline depends on whether their prey of choice in that area is a surface feeder or a mid to deep water feeder. A great white that preys upon fish species will not be seen at the surface on a regular basis, wheras Great whites in seal heavy areas will be.

Guess which type we are with the Atlantic beside us? As although we have seal here, we do not have the same population numbers that they have in other countries, and we do not have the same amounts of human population living near the seal areas. We have found many of the great white's favoured prey fish in Irish waters over the last few years, but they are all fish who do not feed near the surface, so a GW feeding upon them would have no need to be near the surface either.

recedite

I thought the Lee orcas were lost and/or dying. Fair point though about the scottish pod. My point is that these animals seem to pass by Ireland on their way to somewhere else. Why are there no resident populations?

It turns out that sea turtles have always been reasonably well known to local fishermen around the SW coast during summer, even though the sightings were rarely recorded. These unfortunately go belly up very quickly being a warm water species. You can't say that because an animal has been sighted, that therefore they "live" here.

Kess73

recedite wrote: »

I thought the Lee orcas were lost and/or dying. Fair point though about the scottish pod. My point is that these animals seem to pass by Ireland on their way to somewhere else. Why are there no resident populations?

It turns out that sea turtles have always been reasonably well known to local fishermen around the SW coast during summer, even though the sightings were rarely recorded. These unfortunately go belly up very quickly being a warm water species. You can't say that because an animal has been sighted, that therefore they "live" here.

Resident populations when talking about Orca, and GWs for that mater, is a very vague term.

A resident pod of Orca could take in an area that stretches from say the coast off of Cork to the coast off of Southampton in England. So the chances of seeing them on even a weekly basis is slim. As their food moves, so do they.

Also Orca are broken into a few groups, with the resident types being only one term.

There are off shore Orca too and transients. The latter grouping has had tagged whales seen in California, then found off of our coast and later found up around greenland, so they do not stay in the one area for long spells.


Plus resident Orca, even in Ireland, are not normally feeding so close to shore that the naked eye can see them. They are normally a number of miles off shore. So unles you know that they are in the area and you take a boat out at exactly the right time, you will not see them.

Which leads to people thinking that they are not there at all, and that if they are spotted, that it is a rare thing that they are in Irish waters.


Take the Farallon Island area that I mentioned in an earlier post.

It is known as one of the most heavily populated areas for great whites on the planet, and is known for resident Orca. Yet there are spells each year where a great white may not be sighted by researchers for weeks and even months on end, and the same goes for their Orca population, despiet both groups being known as resident in the area.

Basically all it boils down to is the supply of food. The prey moves and the predators follow, and giving that both prey and predator are less constrained in terms of range than their terrestrial counterparts, then the range at which they can travel, and still be regarded as resident, is considerably larger.

recedite

Kess73 wrote: »

A resident pod of Orca could take in an area that stretches from say the coast off of Cork to the coast off of Southampton in England. So the chances of seeing them on even a weekly basis is slim. As their food moves, so do they.

.

It's busy enough with shipping and leisure craft, I think they would be known about if they were there. We know about resident bottlenose dolphins (fungi) and the transient groups visiting the shannon estuary. If you were to follow the coast in a boat,as a circumnavigation, you would not find any huge sealion colonies (or any sealions at all) but you would find a steady supply of small groups of seals. 5 or 6 in a cove here and 20 or 30 hauled up on a sandbank there. Also plenty of porpoises. A GW or pod of Orcas could presumably keep patrolling the coast with regular forays out to sea for large fish. But then we would have seen them. What deters them from staying around?

Kess73

recedite wrote: »

It's busy enough with shipping and leisure craft, I think they would be known about if they were there. We know about resident bottlenose dolphins (fungi) and the transient groups visiting the shannon estuary. If you were to follow the coast in a boat,as a circumnavigation, you would not find any huge sealion colonies (or any sealions at all) but you would find a steady supply of small groups of seals. 5 or 6 in a cove here and 20 or 30 hauled up on a sandbank there. Also plenty of porpoises. A GW or pod of Orcas could presumably keep patrolling the coast with regular forays out to sea for large fish. But then we would have seen them. What deters them from staying around?

As stated earlier in this thread, Atlantic Great Whites are not known to predate on seals to any great degree, they specilize on fish prey, with the deep swimming six gill shark being one of their main prey species. So why would they be seen near the surface or near the shore?

The Orca pods around Ireland and Britain have long been known to be mainly fish hunters also, so why would they follow the totally different behavioural traits of Orca that prey primarily on marine mammals.

You seem to be working on the assumption that the large predators that are in Irish waters, and the large predator that may come into Irish waters are feeding and hunting in a manner that Atlantic Orca and Atlantic great whites do not do, which is predate mainly on marine mammals.

If we were discussing Orca and indeed great whites off the West Coast of America for example, then what you are saying would stand up, as both species there prey mostly on marine mammals, and as such get seen much closer to shore, and much nearer the surface.


Just as an example of the size of a six gill shark compared to a seal, here is a picture of a six gill caught off of the Clare coast earlier this year. Plenty of eating in these guys, and as said earlier they live in deep water, and are known to be one of the main and preferred species that the Atlantic Great whites prey upon.










Also this year another species that the Atlantic GW preys upon was found in large numbers off of the Kerry coast, and it is another member of the cow shark family, the seven gill shark. This discovery is the one that has drawn the interest of marine biologists, as it is the most common cow shark, and everywhere else on the planet where it is in numbers, the great white shark has been found.


Just to correct you on something you said about the bottlenose dolphin. You called the dolphin in the Shannon estuary transient. That is incorrect, the bottlenose dolphin there are the ONLY known resident bottlenose dolphins in Irish waters, they are not transient at all.

Plus they are not preyed upon by the Orca in Irish waters and have often been seen swimming together. Fish eating Orca do not pose a threat to Dolphin unless the Orca is literally starving.

Irishmarinelife

Kess73 wrote: »

I would love to see cage diving brought in over here, as it is a great way to spend a day, and while we cannot gaurantee a GW in our waters, we have a large amount of life on our coastlines that could be viewed from cages.

Cagediving...hmmm, Those who dive regularly with sharks, and its something I used to do, abhor this activity and place it firmly in the Steve Irwin category of sport science...i.e. prodding animals and placing them in unnatural situations and unsurprisingly getting a nervous reaction from them. Cage diving is considered to be behaviour modifying in an unquantifiable manner to sharks. Of course, it is a trade off with the awareness of the species raised by the activity and funding,support for research etc. raised also.

Its still hard to consider it though if you've ever had the pleasure to dive with hundreds of sharks, uncaged. Diving with sharks, even the imperial predator, the great white, is not so risky, and quite a rewarding experience to enter their environment in an unobtrusive manner.

Kess73

Irishmarinelife wrote: »

Cagediving...hmmm, Those who dive regularly with sharks, and its something I used to do, abhor this activity and place it firmly in the Steve Irwin category of sport science...i.e. prodding animals and placing them in unnatural situations and unsurprisingly getting a nervous reaction from them. Cage diving is considered to be behaviour modifying in an unquantifiable manner to sharks. Of course, it is a trade off with the awareness of the species raised by the activity and funding,support for research etc. raised also.

Its still hard to consider it though if you've ever had the pleasure to dive with hundreds of sharks, uncaged. Diving with sharks, even the imperial predator, the great white, is not so risky, and quite a rewarding experience to enter their environment in an unobtrusive manner.

I would not go as far as to say that I abhor cage diving, but I do agree that it is seen as a crass money making business.

Personally I do think it brings more positives than negatives, as it does highlight the animals in question, and it does raise awareness of them.

If it is done in a proper manner by responsibe operators, than I think the pros outweigh the cons.

I would suggest that if you ever get the chance that you try the cage diving setups at the Farallon islands.

They are quite unlike the set ups in Africa, and things like chumming etc are not allowed, as the Islands are nature reserves and the operators have to follow the strict guidelines as set by those authorities.

Also feediving or scubadiving with the sharks is illegal in the waters around the Farallon Islands, due to the population numbers of GWs there, plus the average water temp there makes it quite uncomfortable to be underwater there for too long.

Free diving with a GW is an ambition of mine as I have dived with whale and smaller shark. But the waters I cage dive in are generally waters that have large populations of pinnipeds, so freediving is a big no no in those areas.


Have you gone diving with GWs around? If so, I would love to hear about your experiences and if I may, could I ask where you did so?

CJhaughey

I don't think there are GWS here, With the amount of fishing effort going on around the coast there would have been accidental catches before now, Salmon driftnetting,Wecknetting Pelagic trawling for Tuna and in years gone by the Tuna Driftnet fishery in the Porcupine basin/West coast, I find it hard to believe that they could be present in any numbers and not show up as bycatch.
The furthest north they have been recorded is Concarneau/Brittany and that was one shark a long time ago.
I tend to think they are creatures of habit, they follow set routes and do not deviate from them. They are relatively common in the Med but do not seem to make any efforts to increase their range North.
Those Six and Seven gill sharks would make those kind of bites on a dolphin, not to mention the Greenland sleeper shark which also occur in cold waters and around here.

papachango

CJhaughey wrote: »

I don't think there are GWS here, With the amount of fishing effort going on around the coast there would have been accidental catches before now, Salmon driftnetting,Wecknetting Pelagic trawling for Tuna and in years gone by the Tuna Driftnet fishery in the Porcupine basin/West coast, I find it hard to believe that they could be present in any numbers and not show up as bycatch.
The furthest north they have been recorded is Concarneau/Brittany and that was one shark a long time ago.
I tend to think they are creatures of habit, they follow set routes and do not deviate from them. They are relatively common in the Med but do not seem to make any efforts to increase their range North.
Those Six and Seven gill sharks would make those kind of bites on a dolphin, not to mention the Greenland sleeper shark which also occur in cold waters and around here.

I would say that without doubt GW do occasionally frequent Irish waters. I was surfing in Donegal about 20 years ago and the biggest 'momma' swam directly under me. It was massive, about 15 ft. Cant say for sure if it was a GW as it swam directly under me at a depth of about 4 ft. I can only think that, whatever it was, just came in for a look as there were about four people in the water. No seals around, and the area is not renowned for seals anyway. there are whales and dolphins mind.
There have been sightings further north of GWs and I believe there was a recorded GW attack in thurso, Scotland in the 70's. Thurso is about 58 degrees north and icy!
I would agree that they feed in the deeper water when migrating through Irish waters but on occasion they may follow prey items closer to shore, though infrequently.

Kess73

CJhaughey wrote: »

I don't think there are GWS here, With the amount of fishing effort going on around the coast there would have been accidental catches before now, Salmon driftnetting,Wecknetting Pelagic trawling for Tuna and in years gone by the Tuna Driftnet fishery in the Porcupine basin/West coast, I find it hard to believe that they could be present in any numbers and not show up as bycatch.
The furthest north they have been recorded is Concarneau/Brittany and that was one shark a long time ago.
I tend to think they are creatures of habit, they follow set routes and do not deviate from them. They are relatively common in the Med but do not seem to make any efforts to increase their range North.
Those Six and Seven gill sharks would make those kind of bites on a dolphin, not to mention the Greenland sleeper shark which also occur in cold waters and around here.

I don't think anyone is saying that they could be in Irish waters in any great numbers. Even in parts of the world that are well known for Great white populations, you could go some time without spotting them.


As for how far north they go or how cold a water temp that they will swim in.

They have been recorded much further north than Brittany and in far colder waters.

papachango has mentioned the scottish attack in the 1970's and the waters that I have seen the most in, near the Farallons is extremely cold and much further north than Brittany also. With water temps of 52 to 56 degrees F. Those temps are colder than Irish waters, and that cold area is the biggest known breeding area for great whites on the planet.


If there is a popultaion that passes through Irish waters on a regular or semi regular basis, we may only be talking about numbers that would be between one and ten sharks as a rough estimate, and they most likely would not be in our waters at the same time. So trying to spot one deep feeding GW wheich could be anywhere off of our coast would be next to impossible, and the odds of it turning up in a trawler's net off of coast would be just as tiny.

Think about the other large sharks that are off of our coast like the six gill and the greenland sleeper shark, they are there in larger numbers than a great white could be, yet how often do we hear of them being caught in trawler's nets? Very rarely.


If we have them, and there is no reason why we would not as it is not as though they don't have a healthy and large population of known prey fish here, then they will not be specialist seal hunters like in warmer waters, they will be specialist fish hunters like the other great whites which have been found and tagged in the Atlantic, so they will be deep water feeders.

I do think we have them in our waters from time to time, but their numbers will be very small.

Kess73

papachango wrote: »

I would say that without doubt GW do occasionally frequent Irish waters. I was surfing in Donegal about 20 years ago and the biggest 'momma' swam directly under me. It was massive, about 15 ft. Cant say for sure if it was a GW as it swam directly under me at a depth of about 4 ft. I can only think that, whatever it was, just came in for a look as there were about four people in the water. No seals around, and the area is not renowned for seals anyway. there are whales and dolphins mind.
There have been sightings further north of GWs and I believe there was a recorded GW attack in thurso, Scotland in the 70's. Thurso is about 58 degrees north and icy!
I would agree that they feed in the deeper water when migrating through Irish waters but on occasion they may follow prey items closer to shore, though infrequently.

You could have become the Irish version of Rodney Fox.

Although he was spearfishing when hit.

CJhaughey

Not to disbelieve you but there is a big difference between seeing a GWS and positively ID'ing one.
Porbeagles look similar and can grow to 15ft and inhabit all coastal waters in Ireland and further north.
What I am saying is that with all the fishing effort around here there is no recorded catches of GWS.
Thurso is actually quite warm considering it's latitude, it is still part of the Gulf stream effect, I have been up there a few times on commercial fishing vessels.
I just find it hard to believe that if GWS were here that they would not have been caught by now. Fishermen chase fish and use gears that target concentrations of fish which is where you would expect the sharks to feed, Many other types of sharks and mammals have been recorded as bycatch but never a GWS except for the solitary specimen from a commercial gill net vessel in La Rochelle in May 1977.
Until someone proves it beyond doubt then I am afraid I am a non-believer.

Kess73

CJhaughey wrote: »

Not to disbelieve you but there is a big difference between seeing a GWS and positively ID'ing one.
Porbeagles look similar and can grow to 15ft and inhabit all coastal waters in Ireland and further north.
What I am saying is that with all the fishing effort around here there is no recorded catches of GWS.
Thurso is actually quite warm considering it's latitude, it is still part of the Gulf stream effect, I have been up there a few times on commercial fishing vessels.
I just find it hard to believe that if GWS were here that they would not have been caught by now. Fishermen chase fish and use gears that target concentrations of fish which is where you would expect the sharks to feed, Many other types of sharks and mammals have been recorded as bycatch but never a GWS except for the solitary specimen from a commercial gill net vessel in La Rochelle in May 1977.
Until someone proves it beyond doubt then I am afraid I am a non-believer.

I can see where you are coming from, and without positive proof it can be hard to say whether an animal is there or not.


Humour me by letting me show you a map of the North East Atlantic, where Great Whites have been studied and also have been caught by commercial nets. Plus it is the one part of the planet where sharks are most endangered due to commercail fishing. The map I found online but it is useful for what I am trying to say.





In the parts numbered I, II, IV, and V, great whites have been found, recorded and caught by commercial fishermen. The Irish waters are marked as number III.


The EU have put the Great White, amongst others, as on the endangered list for those areas, and have marked it as a protected species with legal action to be taken against any commercial firm that brings one in. So it would be in the interests of the commercial fishermen to simply throw the dead fish back.

http://www.iucn.org/about/work/programmes/marine/marine_our_work/marine_species/?2213/Quarter-of-northeast-Atlantic-sharks-and-rays-threatened-with-extinction



http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/3855/0/full



The two links I put up are just for your reading. They do not prove that Ireland has Great whites, but they do confirm that the North East Atlantic has them, which is the water off of our coasts from Kerry to Donegal.


I don't think we have resident great whites in our waters, but I do think that we have transient great whites who pass in and out of the Irish waters on that map. As I said earlier it may be one fish a year, it may be up to ten fish a year, but I do firmly believe that they have been in Irish waters. The fact that they are a species that lives and has been found everywhere else on the map I showed you would suggest that they at least pass through our waters, but until, like you have said, one gets caught and officially reported in our waters, then there is no definitive proof of them there.

CJhaughey

I think you are incorrect with that map, The northernmost record of GWS in European waters is from the Loire and that was from a set of jaws.
The only confirmed and documented case was the fish caught off La Rochelle.
there has never been a confirmed documented GWS from the North Sea AFAIK.
even in the Mid Atlantic there is no records of GWS from Japanese longline vessels which routinely catch Mako, Blue and other large sharks.
I am not saying that it is not possible that they occur here but the total absence of any kind of catch records would indicate that they simply don't come up here.
I tend to believe that they are programmed from the time they are born to occupy certain areas, in other words they have a genetic memory from millions of years ago and that the Nth East Atlantic was not a part of their traditional range and therefore they don't travel here.
Fishermen can not be prosecuted for catching one as bycatch, and I know that most would land one as a curiosity if it was caught.

AcePuppetMaster

I really hope it's not the shark that did this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223001/Great-White-Shark-bitten-nearly-half-BIGGER-monster.html
[IMG]file:///C:/Users/ewardon/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.png[/IMG]

Irishmarinelife

CJhaughey wrote: »

I tend to believe that they are programmed from the time they are born to occupy certain areas, in other words they have a genetic memory from millions of years ago and that the Nth East Atlantic was not a part of their traditional range and therefore they don't travel here.
Fishermen can not be prosecuted for catching one as bycatch, and I know that most would land one as a curiosity if it was caught.

Even going back tens of thousands of years, ocean conveyer belts, ice ages etc have modified conditions, timescales are small in this context, depending which scientific paper you read eevn as small as 40 - 60 years for a significant change to affect a species distribution.

Could Great Whites' ranges be becoming amplified? Sure! Could we come close to proving this? Not likely just yet! We know next to nothing about distribution ranges for species such as these, even if they turned up in bycatch, this is incidental and science likes far harder data figures.

Leading nicely on from this, to answer your question Kess, I was working in Galápagos off Ecuador, assisting tagging of hammerhead, galápagos and whale sharks in efforts to know more about their ranges to assist protection measures in the future. It is only recently we have some definites about their range in the +1000km context. It is common and easy to dive and snorkel, uncaged with hundreds of hammerhead, whitetip and galápagos sharks there.

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http://irishmarinelife.com

recedite

papachango wrote: »

I was surfing in Donegal about 20 years ago and the biggest 'momma' swam directly under me. It was massive, about 15 ft. .

Basking shark?

papachango

Kess73 wrote: »

You could have become the Irish version of Rodney Fox.

Although he was spearfishing when hit.

Well whatever it was, thankfully at least, it wasn't starving! It can be unnerving at times but the experience of being out at sea with just your wits, whether surfing or spear fishing, is well worth the experience.
I have enjoyed the attentions of a shark whilst spearfishing in Australia in the 90's, Thankfully it was not a man eater and was just curious. About 6.5 feet long, quite lazily made a beeline for me. It was a wobbegong I think. I saw it swim up from a depth of about forty feet down. kept the gun pointed at him though just in case he got frisky!! He came to within three feet and just hovered there on the current for about 40 seconds before heading back. very nosey!!
Its tricky spearfishing in Australia I had a one kill then exit policy. Dont understand people who string speared fish to themselves and carry on spearfishing when there could be a tiger or GW about.
My experience in donegal could have been a Porbeagle, but would it not have had to be an unusually large one to hit 15 feet in size. either way it made my heart skip more than a beat or two, and we all calmly decided to catch the next wave in and called it a day!

recedite

Kess73 wrote: »

As stated earlier in this thread, Atlantic Great Whites are not known to predate on seals to any great degree, they specilize on fish prey, with the deep swimming six gill shark being one of their main prey species. So why would they be seen near the surface or near the shore?

The Orca pods around Ireland and Britain have long been known to be mainly fish hunters also, so why would they follow the totally different behavioural traits of Orca that prey primarily on marine mammals.

.

I actually meant that if we know about transient dolphins then we should also know about transient orcas, not that the orcas would eat the dolphins. However I'm more curious about this phenomenon of a fixed ecotype, whereby the behaviour of the species is completely different in the Pacific. Is it a cultural thing or is there some genetic component? If you transported a GW or orca from an area where it was accustomed to eating harbour seals and released it in our waters, would it continue to do so? I suspect that any individuals making the long trip across the Atlantic would have got out of the habit and would have got used to feeding on the sharks.Behaviors can be re learned though.

papachango

recedite wrote: »

Basking shark?

No, I am very familiar with these sharks. BTW saw one at Slea head in Kerry this year, HUGE! Dorsal fin like a car door!

recedite

papachango wrote: »

Well whatever it was, thankfully at least, it wasn't starving! It can be unnerving at times but the experience of being out at sea with just your wits, whether surfing or spear fishing, is well worth the experience.

I have done some kayak surfing up there at Tullan, Donegal and I would not be happy about any large beast lurking below me! I'll even admit to once being scared out of the water while snorkelling in Sligo by a large grey seal that was "stalking" me.(In a paparazzi way, not in a predatory way)

Kess73

recedite wrote: »

I actually meant that if we know about transient dolphins then we should also know about transient orcas, not that the orcas would eat the dolphins. However I'm more curious about this phenomenon of a fixed ecotype, whereby the behaviour of the species is completely different in the Pacific. Is it a cultural thing or is there some genetic component? If you transported a GW or orca from an area where it was accustomed to eating harbour seals and released it in our waters, would it continue to do so? I suspect that any individuals making the long trip across the Atlantic would have got out of the habit and would have got used to feeding on the sharks.Behaviors can be re learned though.

There is a line of thought that many marine biologists suscribe to that there is actually a genetic difference between the Great whites of different parts of the world that makes up their feeding profile and habits.

DNA samplings has shown genetic variations in sharks from africa and those from Australia, and when testing was done on Great whites in colder waters there were even more DNA variations.

The line of thought is that GWs from certain breeding grounds come hardwired (for lack of a better term) with a specific prey type imprinted on them from birth, so that they are primarily a fish eater or primarily a meat eater as in pinnipeds.

It is very early days in this line of study though in terms of results.

Your Orca idea is an interesting one, my best guess is the transported Orca would try to seek out it's normal food type and would continue to do so until extreme hunger forced it to try another food source.

But that it would return to it normal preferred food type as soon as it became available.

The fish eating Orcas (residents)have been studied quite a bit and have shown that they have developed hunting skills that just don't work as well on pinnipeds, and the pinniped eating Orca (Transients) have been found to not eat fish.

The fish eating Orca are always far more social and have a more complicated language, whereas the Transients are far less social and have a much simpler language.

They also won't mix with each other when together in one area, nor will they feed together. Like the DNA variations on the Great Whites, it is thought that Orca may be made up of a number of similar but different sub species.

There is still loads to be discovered about them though as many Orca in many parts of the world, like Ireland, have had minimal studies done on them and their habits. We don't actually know for sure what the Irish Orca would fall under in terms of being transient or resident or even off shore, so a lot of it would be best guesses based on studies done in waters that have similarities in terms of water temp and available prey species. The size and shapes of the orca would also give clues as to what type they are.

Kess73

Irishmarinelife wrote: »

Even going back tens of thousands of years, ocean conveyer belts, ice ages etc have modified conditions, timescales are small in this context, depending which scientific paper you read eevn as small as 40 - 60 years for a significant change to affect a species distribution.

Could Great Whites' ranges be becoming amplified? Sure! Could we come close to proving this? Not likely just yet! We know next to nothing about distribution ranges for species such as these, even if they turned up in bycatch, this is incidental and science likes far harder data figures.

Leading nicely on from this, to answer your question Kess, I was working in Galápagos off Ecuador, assisting tagging of hammerhead, galápagos and whale sharks in efforts to know more about their ranges to assist protection measures in the future. It is only recently we have some definites about their range in the +1000km context. It is common and easy to dive and snorkel, uncaged with hundreds of hammerhead, whitetip and galápagos sharks there.

---

http://irishmarinelife.com

Now that sounds amazing. I have freeswam with smaller species of shark, but never with any of the larger species, or at least not to my knowledge . It must be a great experience. Seeing a great white up close from a cage is breathtaking and it conveys such a majestic feeling so I cannot imagine what it must feel like without that cage.

What type of tagging were you involved in? Was it the standard labelling tagging or satellite tagging? I got to listen to a lecture by Dr. Peter Klimley a few years ago about the acoustic tagging that he does and how the cage diving of of Guadalupe Island helps fund the Great white research programs in Mexico.

Sounds like you were involved in some fascinating and very worthwhile projects.

recedite

Kess73 wrote: »

The fish eating Orca are always far more social and have a more complicated language, whereas the Transients are far less social and have a much simpler language.

They also won't mix with each other when together in one area, nor will they feed together. Like the DNA variations on the Great Whites, it is thought that Orca may be made up of a number of similar but different sub species.

It reminds me of H.G.Well's "The Time Machine" where as it turned out they were right to view the other group suspiciously. For a new species to develop, a separation of populations is necessary, and this can occur either geographically or through behavior. It seems this process could be well underway.
Keiko the moviestar whale from "Free Willy" was released off Denmark a few years ago, but was unable to reintegrate and died soon afterwards.

NoQuarter

Irishmarinelife wrote: »

Leading nicely on from this, to answer your question Kess, I was working in Galápagos off Ecuador, assisting tagging of hammerhead, galápagos and whale sharks in efforts to know more about their ranges to assist protection measures in the future. It is only recently we have some definites about their range in the +1000km context. It is common and easy to dive and snorkel, uncaged with hundreds of hammerhead, whitetip and galápagos sharks there.

Sorry to bump an old thread but i happened across it while searching for info on the galapagos! Irishmarinelife could you tell us a little bit more on what you were doing over there and how you came to be in that position? I must admit im very jealous!

Kess73 wrote: »

Have you gone diving with GWs around? If so, I would love to hear about your experiences and if I may, could I ask where you did so?

Ive had the extreme pleasure of diving with GW's off gansbaai to the east of cape town, they hunt the seals on a tiny island about 1 kilometer off the shore, amazing sight really! It reminded me of a scene in jaws i watched as a child where the GW came straight at the window of the underwater lab thing! It was just like that, out of the murky water this huge fish just effortlessly glided toward the cage, and swam past, its eyes are so striking, HUGE and deep black!

Another thing i found strange was that they moved with the current, hard to explain but not something you can see on the TV, they kind of drift side to side, quite and exrtaordinary sight! Also while i was out of the cage i was standing at the side of the boat and right beside the boat an enormous (16+ foot) shark glided past at an angle so its eye was looking up out of the water, it was so close i could have (foolishly) leaned over the side and touched it as it swam by! All in all we probably seen about 7/8 different sharks that day, 3 at a time sometimes!

On topic with the thread, I certainly believe there have been a few nomadic GW's passing through at some stage, I think as regards of why there is no residency is a food source issue as opposed to a temperature issue as I can vouch that the water i dived in in South Africa (in autumn) was FREEZING! just as cold as any water ive swam in up here, after all it is still the atlantic ocean.

Half-cocked

Kess73 wrote: »

I don't think we have resident great whites in our waters, but I do think that we have transient great whites who pass in and out of the Irish waters on that map...... but until, like you have said, one gets caught and officially reported in our waters, then there is no definitive proof of them there.

We have plenty of other fish species that migrate into our waters during the Summer months (mackeral, tuna etc), so it would seem reasonable that GW's might appear too? Especialy if they are preying on these other migratory species. As for catching one, there is a lot of blue shark angling off the South and West coasts during the Summer months with chum used to attract the fish, so if GW's are around you would think an angler would have hooked one by now - unless the baits being used are not attractive to GW's. But even so, there would have been sightings of fish following a chum trail. As you state, I'd want to see one caught or positively ID'd before I was satisfied they are in our waters.

Kess73

fabhcungorm wrote: »

Couldn't a Killer Whale have done this? There are quite alot around W and NW Ireland apparantly.

I read on the BBC website http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8440000/8440002.stm that there are two types of Killer whales in UK (I think we can say Ireland too here).

"Type 2, on the other hand, is a specialist feeder that scientists suspect exclusively feeds on marine mammals such as small dolphins and whales"

I think at the time they had discounted the idea of it being a Killer whale due to the bite radius and the shape of the bites not matching that of an Orca attack.

fabhcungorm

Kess73 wrote: »

The Orca pods around Ireland and Britain have long been known to be mainly fish hunters also, so why would they follow the totally different behavioural traits of Orca that prey primarily on marine mammals.


Plus they are not preyed upon by the Orca in Irish waters and have often been seen swimming together. Fish eating Orca do not pose a threat to Dolphin unless the Orca is literally starving.

I read on the BBC website http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth...00/8440002.stm that there are two types of Killer whales in UK (I think we can say Ireland too here).

"Type 2, on the other hand, is a specialist feeder that scientists suspect exclusively feeds on marine mammals such as small dolphins and whales"

fabhcungorm

fast reply , never mind my last post ;p

Valmont

fryup wrote: »

are Porbeagle dangerous to humans?

They are dangerous to fishing lines, I can tell you that much! I have caught a couple of tope shark over the years and for two years we encountered some incredibly strong sharks that snapped our tope lines every time. My best guess is that it was a porbeagle.

Kess73

Valmont wrote: »

They are dangerous to fishing lines, I can tell you that much! I have caught a couple of tope shark over the years and for two years we encountered some incredibly strong sharks that snapped our tope lines every time. My best guess is that it was a porbeagle.

Yeah it is possible that a porbeagle came in for a free lunch, but I would lean towards it being a blue shark. We get some really big ones off of the Clare coast.

Have lost quite a few tope and dogfish down the years, and they seem to be mostly taken by blues in my case.

I think I read somewhere that porbeagle will rarely eat tope, dogfish or other small sharks, but the sight of a hooked tope must paint a very tempting picture for a prowling porbeagle.

lcrcboy

Orcas off the Irish coast link to story:

https://selvavidasinfronteras.wordpress.com/2011/07/15/100-killer-whales-off-ireland-and-scotland/


story about great whites potentially being in British waters from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14657123

Gunnerkid

lcrcboy wrote: »

Orcas off the Irish coast link to story:

https://selvavidasinfronteras.wordpress.com/2011/07/15/100-killer-whales-off-ireland-and-scotland/


story about great whites potentially being in British waters from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14657123

cool... dragging up an old thread here but here is a video of a porbeagle being caught off Cornwall and its big

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebjE8niF8qw

Kess73

That's a nice looking fish. Think the guy is being more than a tad optimistic to suggest that she (at that size it is more likely the fish is a she) is around the 600lb mark though. She is big, but looks closer to the late 300's or early 400's mark than the late 500's/early 600's.


We have a decent population of porbeagle in and around Irish waters though. Have seen some lovely specimens over the years when diving in Irish waters.

tricky D

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19182452

Blue shark spotted at New Quay, Wales. Nice footage of it 2 yards from shore.

Kess73

Unusual behaviour for a blue. Smacks of a sick fish.

Gunnerkid

http://news.sky.com/story/972970/show-off-thresher-sharks-welsh-acrobatics

Sky news story on a Thresher Shark leaping out of the water seen by passengers on a dolphin spotters boat. Apparently it was spotted closer to the coastline then this species natural deep water habitat, possibly due to recent warmer waters