If we had German levels of state efficiency...

jimmmy

Look at the statistics :
4.2 million Irish, 330k public sector works; 7.9% of the population.
82million Germans, 4.5 million PS workers (according to their own statistics office), 5.5% of the population.

If we had the same efficiency / ratio as the germans we would have / be paying only 231,000 public servants, a saving of 99,000 public servants, @ the c.s.o. average of 50k a year each , total saving € 4,950,000,000 ( obviously gross pay , not net pay ).

If those 99,000 unproductive public servants were productively employed ( for example, making cars for export , or entertaining tourists, or making leprecauns for sale , or whatever gathers revenue ) think of the revenue that could be gathered for the government. Givers to the govt coffers instead of takers.

Bear in mind the Germans have larger armed forces than we do per head, so we could save the expenditure on a few thousand people there too.

Thats how we could save 5 billion a year, and still pay our government employees as much as we do, ....of course our govt would still have to borrow something like 20 billion this year just to keep going...so if we cut the pay of the remaining 231,000 public servants then we may achieve savings of 7 or 8 billion.

Of course critics will argue that owing to the small size of the country / lack of economy of scale we will need slightly more than the 231,000 public servants.

If / when public sector numbers are reduced, obviously other things will have to be looked at...eg German teachers get only 6 weeks summer holidays,...our hse staff take 19 sickies a year etc. Its time our taxpayers got efficiency + value for money.

#15

How long do you propose that Irish teachers get for holidays? Given that it will not save you any money whatsoever, by keeping schools open for longer.

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

Look at the statistics :
4.2 million Irish, 330k public sector works; 7.9% of the population.
82million Germans, 4.5 million PS workers (according to their own statistics office), 5.5% of the population..

Can you give a breakdown of the German PS workers, by organisation and a link to your source?

I'd like to know if you're comparing like with like.

Rob67

jimmmy wrote: »

Look at the statistics :

Bear in mind the Germans have larger armed forces than we do per head, so we could save the expenditure on a few thousand people there too.

Bear in mind they also have conscription too, I would nearly rejoin just to have a day of induction for the new intake People like... I don't know... I suppose people who have nothing to do except spend their days/hours contributing to threads/forums that constantly verbally attack the average PS worker!! :D

peasant

NewDubliner wrote: »

Can you give a breakdown of the German PS workers, by organisation and a link to your source?
I'd like to know if you're comparing like with like.

Just on that note:
That's not readily available. Due to the federal nature of Germany, public sector workers either work for the state directly (eg. soldiers), for the Bundesland (eg. teachers) or even the county or town council (eg. town clerks).

A lot of organisations transcendent that structure. In the police for example there is state police and Bundesland police, the same goes for customs and revenue. Depending which Bundesland is the employer, payment terms and other conditions may even differ for the same job even though there is a pay scale that is supposed to be universal.

Also there is the differentiation between civil servants and public sector workers which makes the collation of data even more difficult.

In short ...I couldn't find anything on who works where

http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/Internet/EN/Content/Statistics/FinanzenSteuern/PublicService/PublicServicePersonnel/Aktuell,templateId=renderPrint.psml

but here's a little picture to add some colour to this post

Hydrosylator

I don't mean to point out the glaringly obvious, but comparing us to Germany won't work in any reasonable way. Frankfurt alone has more GDP than Ireland and Spain combined on an average week.

As for the "as a percentage of population" that's actually not an indicator of policy at all, as we don't know what their population is like. How many of them are retired? How many are still in school?

Can you get figures that show what percentage of the workforce in Germany is in the public sector? Ireland's figure is 26.6%, as of ESRI's last count.

I'd expect Germany to have a lower public sector a sa percentage, as larger countries can usually avoid some duplication of labour in government departments. This doesn't work for most of the public sector though, education, health, security, councils, etc.

herya

#15 wrote: »

How long do you propose that Irish teachers get for holidays? Given that it will not save you any money whatsoever, by keeping schools open for longer.

Shorter holidays actually save lots of money on a household level, I guess I don't need to explain.

Not to mention that the children learn more. Irish holidays/days off are among the longest in Europe, arent' t they? It's a siginificant step back knowledge wise for a kid to have such a long break. They actually know much less than they knew at the end of previous year when they come back.

Tipp Man

peasant wrote: »

Just on that note:
That's not readily available. Due to the federal nature of Germany, public sector workers either work for the state directly (eg. soldiers), for the Bundesland (eg. teachers) or even the county or town council (eg. town clerks).

A lot of organisations transcendent that structure. In the police for example there is state police and Bundesland police, the same goes for customs and revenue. Depending which Bundesland is the employer, payment terms and other conditions may even differ for the same job even though there is a pay scale that is supposed to be universal.

Also there is the differentiation between civil servants and public sector workers which makes the collation of data even more difficult.

In short ...I couldn't find anything on who works where

http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/Internet/EN/Content/Statistics/FinanzenSteuern/PublicService/PublicServicePersonnel/Aktuell,templateId=renderPrint.psml

but here's a little picture to add some colour to this post

Well 1 thing that is blindingly obvious from the above graph is that in the 10 years to 07 they have cut public servants by what 650k or 12.5%. And it would appear that they stratigically decided to lower the number of full time positions as it is a nice steady decline. What way has the graph gone for Ireland in those 10 years? I think that highlights why Germany will pull out of recesion about 3 years before we will

I can't see why we can't strive to have a similar ratio of PS to Population as Germany, They provide the same (better?) services that our guys provide and yes while there may be some economies of scale under absolutely no circumstances can that explain the huge difference. How can this be justified??

We need a dramatic cut in public sector number, get it down to 300k asap and then have a 5 year plan to get it to 250-260k. Its pure madness to have so many PS in this country

#15

herya wrote: »

Shorter holidays actually save lots of money on a household level, I guess I don't need to explain.

Actually, you do. The thread is about cutting costs in the public sector, how is keeping schools open longer going to cut costs?

Not to mention that the children learn more. Irish holidays/days off are among the longest in Europe, arent' t they?

Instruction time is what matters. We are actually better than the Germans in that respect.

It's a siginificant step back knowledge wise for a kid to have such a long break. They actually know much less than they knew at the end of previous year when they come back.

Yes, and German children also suffer from a 6 week break.
They 'actually know much less than they knew at the end of previous year when they come back''. They would be better off having a one week break.

You are just making a general argument to shorten holidays without any real thought.

I would be in favour of a different holiday structure myself, based on educational grounds. But that is nothing to do with cutting costs in the public sector.

Euro_Kraut

#15 wrote: »

Instruction time is what matters. We are actually better than the Germans in that respect.

Its worth noting the German education system is not well regarded in Germany. They frequently score poorly in international comparisons (PISA study).

There is always plently of talk of educational reform in politics.

There are plently of areas where I would like to see Ireland more like Germany. I'm not sure Education is one of them though. Our Education system is by no mean the worst aspect of our public service (Health and Transport get that accolade).

Tipp Man

#15 wrote: »

Actually, you do. The thread is about cutting costs in the public sector, how is keeping schools open longer going to cut costs?




Instruction time is what matters. We are actually better than the Germans in that respect.






Yes, and German children also suffer from a 6 week break.
They 'actually know much less than they knew at the end of previous year when they come back''. They would be better off having a one week break.

You are just making a general argument to shorten holidays without any real thought.

I would be in favour of a different holiday structure myself, based on educational grounds. But that is nothing to do with cutting costs in the public sector.

How about ye keep yer 3 months summer holiday but don't CHARGE to supervise exams, CHARGE to correct exams, CHARGE to walk around a yard for half an hour, have mandatory seminars, conferences etc during the summer to improve education, teaching methods, the curriculum etc. They could do all of this and still have 6 weeks off in the summer

God know teachers are getting paid enough to have all this covered in their salary

#15

Tipp Man wrote: »

We need a dramatic cut in public sector number, get it down to 300k asap and then have a 5 year plan to get it to 250-260k. Its pure madness to have so many PS in this country

I agree with this. But how do you propose to cut things dramatically? Surely we can't just sack the excess staff?

#15

Tipp Man wrote: »

How about ye keep yer 3 months summer holiday but don't CHARGE to supervise exams,

I'm a primary teacher, I don't have 3 months summer holiday, I don't charge to supervise exams.

CHARGE to correct exams,

I don't do that either.

CHARGE to walk around a yard for half an hour,

Our school has parents supervising at lunchtimes. No teacher in our school does yard duty.
I agree that there should not be a wage allowance for yard duty.

have mandatory seminars, conferences etc during the summer to improve education, teaching methods,

Great, who will fund this?

Teachers already take courses during the summer.

the curriculum etc.

Curriculum is under the control of the NCCA, not the teachers.

I can't comment on secondary education, but the primary curriculum is excellent (the only flaw is that IT is not a seperate subject, but even if it was, its possible that we wouldn't get the funding to implement it).

Good know teachers are getting paid enough to have all this covered in their salary

You seem to think that all teachers get the same salary.

Tipp Man

#15 wrote: »

I agree with this. But how do you propose to cut things dramatically? Surely we can't just sack the excess staff?

First off the government would need a good idea of how many people it actually needs in each department, then go through each department, starting with health, and assess where and how many specific jobs are needed. So go to a hospital and ask how many secretaries do you need, how many nurses, consultants, cleaners whatever come up with a number for the hospital and that is all this hospital is allowed to employ but now and in the future. Once you have the number a recruitment policy should be set up to fill all the posts in the hospital, all people not recruited are effectively made redundant. Then next department. Give it a timeframe of a year to complete

All of this would have to be done independantly of course and yes it would cause a bit of pain but the sharper and faster the pain the better in the long run

Of course it will never happen but thats what needs to be done

#15

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Its worth noting the German education system is not well regarded in Germany. They frequently score poorly in international comparisons (PISA study).

There is always plently of talk of educational reform in politics.

There are plently of areas where I would like to see Ireland more like Germany. I'm not sure Education is one of them though. Our Education system is by no mean the worst aspect of our public service (Health and Transport get that accolade).

I know. I hate their education system, from what I know of it.

I would hate to see us move towards their education system. I know a few teachers in Germany, they explained to me how the streaming system doesn't work, and basically facilitates the lower ability children to feel like failures.

I can't fault the German transport system though. At last in comparison to ours.

Euro_Kraut

Hydrosylator wrote: »

Can you get figures that show what percentage of the workforce in Germany is in the public sector? Ireland's figure is 26.6%, as of ESRI's last count.

Germany has a workforce of just over 43million. Giving them a public sevice work force percentage of around 9%.

http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/Internet/EN/Content/Statistics/Arbeitsmarkt/content75/Eckwertetabelle,templateId=renderPrint.psml

Tipp Man

#15 wrote: »

You seem to think that all teachers get the same salary.

We as you can tell my post was obviously directed at secondary teachers as oppossed to primary teachers

I don't know of any secondary teachers (and I know a lot of them) who attend seminars during the summer

Also please explain the above, for secondary all teachers on the same grade earn the same salary (assuming degrees etc are same) and they increase at the same rate. I really don't understand what you mean by this??

Tipp Man

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Germany has a workforce of just over 43million. Giving them a public sevice work force percentage of around 9%.

http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/Internet/EN/Content/Statistics/Arbeitsmarkt/content75/Eckwertetabelle,templateId=renderPrint.psml

Hold on now are you seriously telling me that Germany has 9% of the workforce in the public sector while we have 26%?? Seriously you having me on here. your trying to wind me up cause you know how much i want the public sector to be slashed

axer

Has anyone ever tried to deal with their public service? I have and I must say it is very hard to get things done but from what I can see it is down to the attitude the workers take (they take things personally as if when they are making a decision e.g. the dole, they think it is their money they are spending) and because Germans lack flexibility in general.

If we could cut the wage costs and still keep the flexibility that the Irish have then we could be in a better position than Germany.

As much as I am for slashing the Public Sector costs people must remember there are economies of scale in operation in Germany that we do not have here.

#15

Tipp Man wrote: »

We as you can tell my post was obviously directed at secondary teachers as oppossed to primary teachers

OK

I don't know of any secondary teachers (and I know a lot of them) who attend seminars during the summer

I can't speak for secondary teachers.
If you feel like you have reason to slate them, go right ahead, but please clarify in future posts. Teachers includes both primary and secondary.

Also please explain the above, for secondary all teachers on the same grade earn the same salary (assuming degrees etc are same) and they increase at the same rate. I really don't understand what you mean by this??

Everyone on the same point on the scale earns the same salary, but not everyone is on the same point on the scale.

Obviously.:)

Euro_Kraut

Tipp Man wrote: »

Hold on now are you seriously telling me that Germany has 9% of the workforce in the public sector while we have 26%?? Seriously you having me on here. your trying to wind me up cause you know how much i want the public sector to be slashed

Where are you getting the 26% from?

We have a work force of just over 2.2million (see CSO) and a Public Sector (according to a poster in this thread) of 330,000. That gives about 15%.

Euro_Kraut

#15 wrote: »

I can't speak for secondary teachers.
If you feel like you have reason to slate them, go right ahead, but please clarify in future posts. Teachers includes both primary and secondary.

Just on teachers and comparison with Germany. According to their statistics Germany has an average student/teacher ratio of 18.5:1 in Primary school and 15.3:1 in the Secondary school.

See: https://www-ec.destatis.de/csp/shop/sfg/bpm.html.cms.cBroker.cls?cmspath=struktur,vollanzeige.csp&ID=1024524 and look at page 46 of the PDF download. It varies across states but is only in one state (Hessen) is it over 20:1.

By contrast we have a student teacher ratio in Primary school of 27:1. In that sense Irish teachers are much more efficient.

Tipp Man

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Where are you getting the 26% from?

We have a work force of just over 2.2million (see CSO) and a Public Sector (according to a poster in this thread) of 330,000. That gives about 15%.

It was in the thread that you quoted??

Anyway i didn't think about it (late lunch!!) so as you say it is 15%, although i thought there was 360k PS employees, either way its somewhere between 15-16%

gurramok

Well, Irish male primary school teachers earn €64k average and female teachers €56k average.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html

Euro_Kraut

Tipp Man wrote: »

It was in the thread that you quoted??

Sorry, I thought it was you that had originally put the 26% figures around. It was someone else.

Euro_Kraut

gurramok wrote: »

Well, Irish male primary school teachers earn €64k average and female teachers €56k average.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html

That is slightly misleading as it includes principals as well as ordinary teachers. In large primary schools the principal doesn't actually teach.

However,
Here are the payscales. It goes from 33k to 63k excluding allowance which typically add another 6.5k to that figure. Plus many teachers actually start on the 3rd point on the payscale.

So most will start on 40k and finish around 70k.

Boskowski

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Teachers ... It goes from 33k to 63k excluding allowance which typically add another 6.5k to that figure. Plus many teachers actually start on the 3rd point on the payscale.

So most will start on 40k and finish around 70k.

Which is roughly 20% - 25% too much. Especially if you count in that they roughly only work 9 months a year.

#15

realcam wrote: »

Which is roughly 20% - 25% too much. Especially if you count in that they roughly only work 9 months a year.

That depends on what you count as work. Do you just include instruction time? Or preparation time? Are you referring to primary or secondary? Or both?

A 25% pay cut would be fair, if the cost of living falls by about 30% or 40%.

May I ask what job you have?

I am wondering how qualified you are to be able to make such definitive claims about the salaries of other workers.
Paying tax does not make you qualified.

cyclopath2001

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Germany has a workforce of just over 43million. Giving them a public sevice work force percentage of around 9%.

How do you know that the way they count their public sector is the same as we count ours? For example, are all the state-owned utility companies included?

Euro_Kraut

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

How do you know that the way they count their public sector is the same as we count ours? For example, are all the state-owned utility companies included?

I have no idea. Just doing some back of the envelope calculations to get a sense of it. If you want to have a better stab at it go ahead.

ghost_ie

Tipp Man wrote: »

First off the government would need a good idea of how many people it actually needs in each department, then go through each department, starting with health, and assess where and how many specific jobs are needed. So go to a hospital and ask how many secretaries do you need, how many nurses, consultants, cleaners whatever come up with a number for the hospital and that is all this hospital is allowed to employ but now and in the future. Once you have the number a recruitment policy should be set up to fill all the posts in the hospital, all people not recruited are effectively made redundant. Then next department. Give it a timeframe of a year to complete

All of this would have to be done independantly of course and yes it would cause a bit of pain but the sharper and faster the pain the better in the long run

Of course it will never happen but thats what needs to be done

Before you start sacking nurses, doctors, cleaners, health care assistants, teachers etc., let's start with the top dogs.

Reduce the number of TD's to 100 (if not less). Then reduce their salaries to €50,000pa. Ministers would be paid €60,000. The post of Junior Minister should be abolished. No TD shouldl be allowed to collect a ministerial pension while drawing a TD's salary. No retired Minister should draw both a ministerial and a TD's pension. All expenses to be vouched.

Having done that, we move on to quangos - get rid of the lot.

Also get rid of the Board of the HSE. We have a Minister for Health - no need to pay a group of people to do the job she's meant to do.

Judges' salaries and those of higher civil servants should also be reduced to €50,000pa.

Once that's done by all means look at reducing the pay of ordinary public sector workers.

And before you say "We can't do that - if we reduce their pay like that no-one will want to be a TD. If we pay peanuts we get monkeys" let me point out that we pay politicians exorbitant salaries and would have been better off if we'd had monkeys governing us

ArmaniJeanss

ghost_ie wrote: »

Judges' salaries and those of higher civil servants should also be reduced to €50,000pa.

Once that's done by all means look at reducing the pay of ordinary public sector workers.

Serious?

If we reduce the very highest civil servant to €50K then what sort of money do you reckon the top guard and the top doctor and the 20-year teacher should be on?

And the junior doctor and the newly qualified guard? Somewhere around the €12K mark? €10K for the teacher?

Or maybe you just want the people at the top to earn less than the people below them?

Hasschu

The political systems and culture differ markedly. The German electorate demand efficiency and the politicians are there to govern the country as a whole. In Ireland the electorate want jobs for the girls and the boys in return for supporting the party and the politicians are there to govern on behalf of the campaign contributers. Irish civil servants are no better or worse than their German counterparts. As to pay rates the Irish gov't reward their supporters and contributors. What have you done for Ireland's natural governing party lately. Surely you are not thinking of punishing the gov't at the polls. Better to become a supporter and a contributer tis the Irish way.

kevteljeur

ghost_ie wrote: »

Before you start sacking nurses, doctors, cleaners, health care assistants, teachers etc., let's start with the top dogs.

Reduce the number of TD's to 100 (if not less). Then reduce their salaries to €50,000pa. Ministers would be paid €60,000. The post of Junior Minister should be abolished. No TD shouldl be allowed to collect a ministerial pension while drawing a TD's salary. No retired Minister should draw both a ministerial and a TD's pension. All expenses to be vouched.

Having done that, we move on to quangos - get rid of the lot.

Also get rid of the Board of the HSE. We have a Minister for Health - no need to pay a group of people to do the job she's meant to do.

Judges' salaries and those of higher civil servants should also be reduced to €50,000pa.

Once that's done by all means look at reducing the pay of ordinary public sector workers.

And before you say "We can't do that - if we reduce their pay like that no-one will want to be a TD. If we pay peanuts we get monkeys" let me point out that we pay politicians exorbitant salaries and would have been better off if we'd had monkeys governing us

The general principle is a good one.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Serious?

If we reduce the very highest civil servant to €50K then what sort of money do you reckon the top guard and the top doctor and the 20-year teacher should be on?

And the junior doctor and the newly qualified guard? Somewhere around the €12K mark? €10K for the teacher?

Or maybe you just want the people at the top to earn less than the people below them?

Personally, I think the specifics might have been a bit extreme, but the general principle of having less people, paying them less, and having them work harder is what's important. People doing more for less. This is how Ireland should see itself in relation to the rest of Europe in terms of competitiveness, and I believe a big problem with Ireland's image in the larger, wealthier European states has been a clear pride in 'doing less for more'; over-priced inefficiency, in other words.

And for TDs and Ministers; well, if they are doing the job because it is well-paid, then it is the wrong reason. That's not to say it shouldn't have a decent wage attached, but it shouldn't be up there with the highest paid state salaries in the world.

Something that is generally true is that people in Ireland (and I believe that this is fuelled by Unions here to a great degree) have a strong sense of entitlement. We see laughable posts here about how the EU or Germany should bail us out of our economic problems, but it's based on a feeling that we should be getting more from everyone else, because we deserve it. We're a small and economically weak country, and at all levels that needs to be reflected, including members of the public service being paid at, and employed in numbers, comparable to other European states operating in similar conditions.

You'll see no union official ever explain how these high numbers of wages and employment should be financed, because there isn't a good answer for it. This post isn't a dig at Public Service employees, by the way, there are plenty of hard-working, efficient members of the service. But there are too many, and we'll all have to take a cut, public or private.


.

Boskowski

#15 wrote: »

That depends on what you count as work. Do you just include instruction time? Or preparation time? Are you referring to primary or secondary? Or both?

A 25% pay cut would be fair, if the cost of living falls by about 30% or 40%.

May I ask what job you have?

I am wondering how qualified you are to be able to make such definitive claims about the salaries of other workers.
Paying tax does not make you qualified.

You're asking fair enough questions.

I'm not really qualified at all to comment. You may ask. I'm a software engineer, a tax payer. That's all. As qualified as most people commenting here on this. What's your job?

I'm making those claims on the grounds of common sense. No one straight out of college is worth just under 40 grand. Even if they were, it still wouldn't be right to pay them that. Certainly no teacher is. While teaching certainly is a responsible and important job I fail to see how it should be kept on a plateau. They're teachers, no more no less.

I am also making these claims on the grounds of Ireland being a small country thinking it can afford to pay every single one in health and education (and other professions) way over the European average. That just doesn't make sense. We have no economical ,industrial or other fiscal strongholds to back up such behavior. We should be actually more prudent than everyone else, but yet we're doing the exact opposite.

Thirdly I am making these claims on the grounds of Ireland simply being unable to afford such levels of pay in the public sector. Not on grounds of being a small country or being prudent or anything. On the grounds of this being a matter of fact. Ireland has to borrow moneys in the region of almost the entire public sector wage bill. Assuming that my first two points were invalid it still wouldn't make this one go away.

You are saying a pay cut would only be fair if the costs of living would fall substantially below the pay cut effectively giving a sizable pay rise? So you are saying that teachers aren't paid enough and really they should be given even more? I don't have to explain to you what I think of that.

Lastly, what's fair? I think teachers are paid more than fairly. I think teachers have a great job with those long holidays and they're getting very handsomely paid for it. All the teachers I know agree with me on this. If I had to count similar holidays into my job it would have to be worth 10-15 grand easily. I'm not saying teachers have an easy job, but who does? Fact is that teachers seem to have a disproportionately excellent deal between job demands, pay, holidays and other benefits like pension etc. The education sector is contributing also disproportionately to the states budget deficit. Now we just have to put a) and b) together.

I would like to add that we're singling out teachers in this thread. That's the one thing that isn't fair. We have similar professions that seem equally protected, not all of them necessarily in the public sector, that need to have a long hard look at themselves.

Boskowski

One word to the actual topic at hand. Comparing Irish and German public sector efficiency.

German efficiency is a bit of a stereotype and while there may be some truth in it, 'efficiency' is certainly not an attribute that the German people themselves would award to their public sector.

The numbers suggest a more efficient public service but there's a few a reasons why I think this is flawed.
Germany has much bigger urban centers. Germany has much, much better infrastructure. Germany has traditionally a lot of big industrial corporations employing huge numbers of people in the private sector. Ireland has no Siemens, Volkswagen, Bosch etc employing hundreds of thousands of people in the private sector. Ireland has 'mittelstaendische' and smaller businesses only, which Germany also has. Naturally that would twist the averages towards private sector employment in Germany.

But these things are only some aspects. I guess at the end of the day in Europe you will find very few countries that are more apart in terms of industrial and economical development than Germany and Ireland. You cannot really compare the two in so many ways.

imme

Another day another 'bash the public service' thread, quelle surprise?
Should I be surprised?

irish_bob

imme wrote: »

Another day another 'bash the public service' thread, quelle surprise?
Should I be surprised?

since were borrowing multiples of millions every week to fund it , no , you shouldnt be surpirsed to see posts complaining about its pig greedy appetite

#15

realcam wrote: »

You're asking fair enough questions.

I'm not really qualified at all to comment. You may ask. I'm a software engineer, a tax payer. That's all. As qualified as most people commenting here on this. What's your job?

I am a primary teacher. Sorry, I thought I had specified that earlier on this thread, but maybe it was in a different one. That was why I asked about you, as I thought I had done the same.

I'm making those claims on the grounds of common sense. No one straight out of college is worth just under 40 grand. Even if they were, it still wouldn't be right to pay them that. Certainly no teacher is. While teaching certainly is a responsible and important job I fail to see how it should be kept on a plateau. They're teachers, no more no less.

Ok.

I am also making these claims on the grounds of Ireland being a small country thinking it can afford to pay every single one in health and education (and other professions) way over the European average. That just doesn't make sense. We have no economical ,industrial or other fiscal strongholds to back up such behavior. We should be actually more prudent than everyone else, but yet we're doing the exact opposite.

Thirdly I am making these claims on the grounds of Ireland simply being unable to afford such levels of pay in the public sector. Not on grounds of being a small country or being prudent or anything. On the grounds of this being a matter of fact. Ireland has to borrow moneys in the region of almost the entire public sector wage bill. Assuming that my first two points were invalid it still wouldn't make this one go away.

I agree with this.

You are saying a pay cut would only be fair if the costs of living would fall substantially below the pay cut effectively giving a sizable pay rise? So you are saying that teachers aren't paid enough and really they should be given even more? I don't have to explain to you what I think of that.

Ok fair enough, I exaggerated that to make a point.
My point is that wages are higher here because the cost of living is higher here. Its annoying when people won't acknowledge that. The OP has repeatedly refused to acknowledge that in other threads.

I would be much happier to earn a German teachers salary if the cost of living was the same as in Germany.
I am actually thinking of emigrating there in the next few years. I know a few teachers in Germany and their lifestyle is much better than mine here, even with less wages (because of the cost of living, transport etc etc). I am learning German at the moment.

Lastly, what's fair? I think teachers are paid more than fairly. I think teachers have a great job with those long holidays and they're getting very handsomely paid for it. All the teachers I know agree with me on this. If I had to count similar holidays into my job it would have to be worth 10-15 grand easily. I'm not saying teachers have an easy job, but who does? Fact is that teachers seem to have a disproportionately excellent deal between job demands, pay, holidays and other benefits like pension etc. The education sector is contributing also disproportionately to the states budget deficit. Now we just have to put a) and b) together.

I think a pay cut would be fair. I don't disagree there.
But to say that teachers work 9-3 is not a true statement. I am not claiming it is the hardest job in the world, but it is annoying when people make assumptions without knowing the other work that goes into it.

Pay can be cut. Pension benefits can be changed. But I am not sure about the holidays, I think that is something that should be changed on educational grounds rather than on economic grounds. Some people seem to think that teachers should have less holidays, ''just because''.
If there is an educational argument for it, they should make it, but there does not seem to be an economic one.

As for the proportion of the budget, I don't know enough about it to comment.

I would like to add that we're singling out teachers in this thread. That's the one thing that isn't fair. We have similar professions that seem equally protected, not all of them necessarily in the public sector, that need to have a long hard look at themselves.

Fair point.

#15

irish_bob wrote: »

since were borrowing multiples of millions every week to fund it , no , you shouldnt be surpirsed to see posts complaining about its pig greedy appetite

Ok, why not offer up some ideas as to what can be done to cut costs?

Does the OP have anything to add to this thread, rather than just thanking every post that is negative about the public sector?

jimmmy

gurramok wrote: »

Well, Irish male primary school teachers earn €64k average and female teachers €56k average.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html

Given finishing salaries - because of age , promotion etc - are higher than average salaries, we can only speculate ( in the absense of satatisical info ) what teachers pensions are, but they are obviously pretty high compared to private sector pensions + pensions overseas. I am sure they will be cut in the budget too.

jimmmy

#15 wrote: »

Does the OP have anything to add to this thread, rather than just thanking every post that is negative about the public sector?

I have thanked a few posts which had positive suggestions on how to improve the value for money we are all getting for public expenditure.
Given our govt borrowing, I think it fair to say everyone knows something has to be done about govt expenditure, and a large part of govt expenditure goes on the public sector. Many people in the country are not happy about the quality of our public services eg healthcare, education etc, and we have the right to look at the level of public service pay + pensions in other Eurozone countries - much less than here -, staff numbers employed there and general efficiency etc. I had already written " If / when public sector numbers are reduced, obviously other things will have to be looked at...eg German teachers get only 6 weeks summer holidays,...our hse staff take 19 sickies a year etc. Its time our taxpayers got efficiency + value for money "

imme

irish_bob wrote: »

since were borrowing multiples of millions every week to fund it , no , you shouldnt be surpirsed to see posts complaining about its pig greedy appetite

1) do you trust the same government that gave you Benchmarking to 'reform' the public service?

2) do you know the German public service and its levels of efficiency, are we comparing like with like, what do you know of the German public service.

3) do you think the public service should just be slashed wholesale, or 'reformed'?

jimmmy

Given our public service is the "highest paid" on "the planet" ( as confirmed by Eddie Hobbs on RTE last week ) , I think our public service should as part of being 'reformed' it should be "slashed wholesale":D
( as opposed to slashed retail , or pay levels even increased in some parts, as some union activists advocate )

Not just the pay should be looked at but numbers employed in certain parts eg administration will need to be addressed, as well as factors such the levels of holidays, pensions, sickies etc.

The taxpayer deserves an efficient government + public services.

ardmacha

Given our public service is the "highest paid" on "the planet" ( as confirmed by Eddie Hobbs on RTE last week

How does Eddie Hobbs know? Are you really Eddie Hobbs?

jimmmy

ardmacha wrote: »

How does Eddie Hobbs know?

You would need to ask him that, but I would assume that like others he has compared Irish levels of public sector pay with levels in other countries.

ardmacha wrote: »

Are you really Eddie Hobbs?

No.
N.B. There is an interesting thread of that aspect of p.s. pay if you want to go off on that tangent. Is the Irish Public Service the highest paid in the world ? (1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page)

P. Breathnach

ardmacha wrote: »

How does Eddie Hobbs know? Are you really Eddie Hobbs?

jimmmy doesn't do research. He picks up random facts and factoids and uses them repeatedly as authority.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

jimmmy doesn't do research. He picks up random facts and factoids and uses them repeatedly as authority.

I do actually do reasearch, P. Breatnach. Would you please stop attacking me personally ? It gets a bit tiresome. Do you attack Eddie Hobbs too ? If you have found some country in the world which has higher public service pay ( it should not be hard for you to find if there is one, given most countries have statistics offices, how easy it is to do research on the internet,etc ) perhaps you could correct those whom you disagree with ?

NB I do not receive public service pay or a public service pension, so I have no vested interest in this. My only interest is as a taxpayer / citizen.

Tipp Man

realcam wrote: »

You are saying a pay cut would only be fair if the costs of living would fall substantially below the pay cut effectively giving a sizable pay rise? So you are saying that teachers aren't paid enough and really they should be given even more? I don't have to explain to you what I think of that.

Lastly, what's fair? I think teachers are paid more than fairly. I think teachers have a great job with those long holidays and they're getting very handsomely paid for it. All the teachers I know agree with me on this. If I had to count similar holidays into my job it would have to be worth 10-15 grand easily. I'm not saying teachers have an easy job, but who does? Fact is that teachers seem to have a disproportionately excellent deal between job demands, pay, holidays and other benefits like pension etc. The education sector is contributing also disproportionately to the states budget deficit. Now we just have to put a) and b) together.

I would like to add that we're singling out teachers in this thread. That's the one thing that isn't fair. We have similar professions that seem equally protected, not all of them necessarily in the public sector, that need to have a long hard look at themselves.

Top post this

Tipp Man

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well 1 thing that is blindingly obvious from the above graph is that in the 10 years to 07 they have cut public servants by what 650k or 12.5%. And it would appear that they stratigically decided to lower the number of full time positions as it is a nice steady decline. What way has the graph gone for Ireland in those 10 years? I think that highlights why Germany will pull out of recesion about 3 years before we will

realcam wrote: »

One word to the actual topic at hand. Comparing Irish and German public sector efficiency.

German efficiency is a bit of a stereotype and while there may be some truth in it, 'efficiency' is certainly not an attribute that the German people themselves would award to their public sector.

The numbers suggest a more efficient public service but there's a few a reasons why I think this is flawed.
Germany has much bigger urban centers. Germany has much, much better infrastructure. Germany has traditionally a lot of big industrial corporations employing huge numbers of people in the private sector. Ireland has no Siemens, Volkswagen, Bosch etc employing hundreds of thousands of people in the private sector. Ireland has 'mittelstaendische' and smaller businesses only, which Germany also has. Naturally that would twist the averages towards private sector employment in Germany.

But these things are only some aspects. I guess at the end of the day in Europe you will find very few countries that are more apart in terms of industrial and economical development than Germany and Ireland. You cannot really compare the two in so many ways.

i agree with a lot of what you say but if you refer to the first page of this thread and look at the graph you will see that Germany has reduced its full time PS workers by 12.5% over 10 years, so it is making a conscious effort to control and manage its PS. we have done the exact opposite by letting both the number of PS workers and their wages get out of control. i don't see why we can't aim to have a similar public service, in terms of pay but especially in terms of numbers (as a %age of workforce or population). ok they might have better structures in place but surely we have to aim for similar levels.

also Germany has a decent sized army which must be adding to their PS number.

cyclopath2001

jimmmy wrote: »

I do actually do reasearch

In the Irish Independent.