Non payment of court fine

PaddyThai

I understand from the Courts service that if a fine is not paid a warrant for an arrest can be issued or seizure of goods.
With the number of people in serious financial difficulty at the moment I wonder how the system can cope if this action is always taken.
It is in no ones interest to arrest and detain people and seizing goods must be a cumbersome business if goods are not easily saleable.
What we were discussing recently was at what point can the system no longer cope.
Not sure if this should be in Legal discussions or elsewhere so mods please move if you deem fit.

Our man in Havana

Goods are not seized for non payment of criminal fines. Non payment of fines results in imprisonment in default.

seamus

You see, this requires a number of assumptions:

1. That most if not all of the country are chronically unemployed. Since fines are levied on both the wealthy and non-wealthy, and you'd assume the wealthy can pay. So to reach a state of "no-one can pay their fines", everyone (or at least 75% of us) would have to be broke.
2. That the marketplace is unable to sell any seized goods and therefore *any* goods. Since the court will only seize items of value then if you can't sell it, it has no value, so if the court can't sell *anything* it seizes, then nothing has a value.

So you can see for us to reach a state of the courts system being unable to cope, the entire structure of our society would have collapsed long before that point and there would be no courts system to speak of.

If you're referring to judgements on loans (i.e. enforcing people's debts), then it's a little trickier. The courts will always cope because they can just queue up the cases. It's the financial insitutions who wouldn't be able to cope because they would collapse from bankruptcy long before the court managed to enforce their debts.

However, this again would require massive amounts of unemployment and even at the 12% unemployment we have now, we're nowhere near the point that massive amounts of people are defaulting and completely insolvent.

Ab roller plus

As Bond 007 says if you dont pay a fine imposed after a criminal conviction you will go to jail. When imposing sentence a Judge will say fine €500 and 7 days in default. So if you dont pay then your in the Joy for 7 days which end up costing the state even more!! If you have difficulty in paying explain this to the Judge and you will be given plenty of time. If you think your not going to be able to pay on time - go back to the judge and ask for more time. Oh just go to the Joy and then the fine is no longer payable.

Goods can only be seized by the Sherrif/County Registrar in Civil Cases as far as I know.

Our man in Havana

Goods can only be seized by the Sherrif/County Registrar in Civil Cases as far as I know.

Correct. Even that is very rare.

Reloc8

Bond-007 wrote: »

Goods are not seized for non payment of criminal fines. Non payment of fines results in imprisonment in default.

Except if the fine is against a legal person as opposed to a natural person - like a company. In default of payment by a company distress is ordered, and the sherrif/reg executes that against company goods.

Ab roller plus

seamus wrote: »

You see, this requires a number of assumptions:

If you're referring to judgements on loans (i.e. enforcing people's debts), then it's a little trickier. The courts will always cope because they can just queue up the cases.

I'm not sure if q'ing up the cases is coping! Its really only increasing costs since a number of trips to court is required. There is also the problem with the Enforcement of Court Orders Act 1940 - Courts Service cannot just issue a committal summons as it has previously done. Anybody know if the Sup Court will decide on this?

PaddyThai

seamus wrote: »

You see, this requires a number of assumptions:

1. That most if not all of the country are chronically unemployed. Since fines are levied on both the wealthy and non-wealthy, and you'd assume the wealthy can pay. So to reach a state of "no-one can pay their fines", everyone (or at least 75% of us) would have to be broke.
2. That the marketplace is unable to sell any seized goods and therefore *any* goods. Since the court will only seize items of value then if you can't sell it, it has no value, so if the court can't sell *anything* it seizes, then nothing has a value.

So you can see for us to reach a state of the courts system being unable to cope, the entire structure of our society would have collapsed long before that point and there would be no courts system to speak of.

If you're referring to judgements on loans (i.e. enforcing people's debts), then it's a little trickier. The courts will always cope because they can just queue up the cases. It's the financial insitutions who wouldn't be able to cope because they would collapse from bankruptcy long before the court managed to enforce their debts.

However, this again would require massive amounts of unemployment and even at the 12% unemployment we have now, we're nowhere near the point that massive amounts of people are defaulting and completely insolvent.

Interesting post.

However, the this article, in a recent edition of the Irish Examiner, gives insight into where the system might be under some strain;
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/snidqlsnoj/rss2/

cleopatra2010

Ab roller plus wrote: »

As Bond 007 says if you dont pay a fine imposed after a criminal conviction you will go to jail. When imposing sentence a Judge will say fine €500 and 7 days in default. So if you dont pay then your in the Joy for 7 days which end up costing the state even more!! If you have difficulty in paying explain this to the Judge and you will be given plenty of time. If you think your not going to be able to pay on time - go back to the judge and ask for more time. Oh just go to the Joy and then the fine is no longer payable.

Goods can only be seized by the Sherrif/County Registrar in Civil Cases as far as I know.

i have a 1000 euro fine , which i was meant to pay tomorrow , i can't do it as i'm already living hand to mouth so 2 weeks in default is what i will pay instead . crazy

MagicSean

PaddyThai wrote: »

Interesting post.

However, the this article, in a recent edition of the Irish Examiner, gives insight into where the system might be under some strain;
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/snidqlsnoj/rss2/

That problem is due to overcrowding. People are deciding to go to jail instead of paying fines because they know they will be out in no time, in some cases the next day.

Builderfromhell

I heard from a prison officer that Limerick prison are no longer accomodating people being jailed for fines as they do not have the room. They already released 70 approx. inmates on temporary release who were jailed for more serious offences.
The system, it seems, is cracking at the seams.

uprising2

cleopatra2010 wrote: »

i have a 1000 euro fine , which i was meant to pay tomorrow , i can't do it as i'm already living hand to mouth so 2 weeks in default is what i will pay instead . crazy

Don't worry about it, you'll be out after a day the way things are going.
Actually you may not have to go to prison......
Move away from jail in Fines Bill
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0528/breaking37.html

445279.ie

Ab roller plus wrote: »

I'm not sure if q'ing up the cases is coping! Its really only increasing costs since a number of trips to court is required. There is also the problem with the Enforcement of Court Orders Act 1940 - Courts Service cannot just issue a committal summons as it has previously done. Anybody know if the Sup Court will decide on this?

Enforcement of Court Orders Amendment Act 2009

http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/eAct/2009/a2109.pdf

krd

What is the position if a summons is issued for a minor traffic offence and the summons is served on an old address. And you're unaware of it has been served. The judge imposes a fine in court.

What happens?

Can you be picked up and thrown in jail?

Our man in Havana

If a penal warrant is issued and the Gardaí find you, yes they can arrest you.

krd

Haddockman wrote: »

If a penal warrant is issued and the Gardaí find you, yes they can arrest you.

Any how can you find out if a warrant has been issued?

Do they expire?

What is the position on a summons that has been served on an old address. Is the summons still considered served, or is it void?

mickdub2012

I have until 31 st Feb 2012 tomorrow to pay 200 fine but i don't have that money. I am currently unemployed paying
Maintenance and personal Christmas loans out of my job seekers. After paying everything i am left with 8 euro. I have no possible way of paying this what is the worst that can happen.

PCPhoto

Firstly its 31 January tomorrow

Secondly - did you know about the fines before christmas ? if so, why did you get loans out ? if not, why did you get christmas loans out when you knew you had a pending court action where compensation/fine could have been a result.

Can you apply for a new loan or top-up on current loan ? Can you borrow the money from family/friends ?

Talk to citizens advice and find out if there is any subsistance payments/loans that can be made to you to facilitate you.

ResearchWill

Ab roller plus wrote: »

I'm not sure if q'ing up the cases is coping! Its really only increasing costs since a number of trips to court is required. There is also the problem with the Enforcement of Court Orders Act 1940 - Courts Service cannot just issue a committal summons as it has previously done. Anybody know if the Sup Court will decide on this?

That relates to civil debt. In a criminal fine, situation as the Judge has already stated that in event the fine is not paid a certain time in prison is to be served. The order is say €500 fine 3 months to pay 5 days in default. So at the end of the 3 months you may be arrested.

I don't believe that case was appealed, the law was amended in civil matters, to allow the court to have a debtor brought before the court and to allow legal aid. So you can not be detained in a civil case unless you have appeared before the judge and he is satisfied that you not paying is not die to your mere inability to pay.

Dub12Dave

cleopatra2010 wrote: »

i have a 1000 euro fine , which i was meant to pay tomorrow , i can't do it as i'm already living hand to mouth so 2 weeks in default is what i will pay instead . crazy

Don't worry about it as my sister was also in a similar position as you, she couldn't pay and was locked up but was released in under 2 hours.

Begorra and begob

mickdub2012 wrote: »

I have until 31 st Feb 2012 tomorrow to pay 200 fine but i don't have that money. I am currently unemployed paying
Maintenance and personal Christmas loans out of my job seekers. After paying everything i am left with 8 euro. I have no possible way of paying this what is the worst that can happen.

Hi Mick;

If you are in a position whereby you can't comply with the court order (i.e. the fine) you need to go back to the judge/court in question say on Monday and mention, before the court starts, to the registrar (the person who sits in front of the judge) that you wish to make an application to the judge about an order/fine that was made. You could alternatively ask for it to be dealt with/mentioned just before lunch when the court would be more empty.

Inform the judge that it is simply not possible to comply with the fine in the time frame allowed and ask for a n extended period or payment by way of installment. You have to deal with it, the court will accomodate you but burying your head in the sand and having more summonses or warrants issued will definitely not help you. Just put your head down, go up to the (likely) woman who sits in front of the judge before 10am and she will have the thing mentioned for you and it will be sorted then and you won't have to worry about it any more.

Hope this helps, and for anyone else out there!

Our man in Havana

Easier to do 2 hours in the jail.

charlemont

krd wrote: »

Any how can you find out if a warrant has been issued?

Do they expire?

What is the position on a summons that has been served on an old address. Is the summons still considered served, or is it void?

What county do you live in ? They won't call to you with a warrant till a few weeks has passed since payment was due, Now remember all fines come with a few days in prison as an option if you don't want to pay, Don't worry about it you won't be kept in long anyway, But you can ask at your local station if the warrant has arrived.

A summons with a old address will be reissued, By the time they got a summons on me for a half ounce it had been reissued three times, Cops had my proper address but somehow insisted on using my folks address,

bubbuz

Looks like the best thread for some advice for me. I was stopped for speeding last year, I couldn't afford the 80 euro as im on lone parents widower payment and just couldn't find the money, the fine then increased and finally went to court ending up at a 500 euro fine ( talk about throwing a sinking man a brick ) I was told I couldn't pay in installments so alas the deadline was the 1st of feb and am now aware that a warrant will be issued for my arrest. I don't want the guards coming to my house to arrest me as my daughters lost their mum 2 years ago and I don't want them to see me being taken away, also if I do go to prison then what will happen to my daughters ??? . Any help or advice on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Our man in Havana

You will only be in the jail for a few hours at most.

bubbuz

Yeah I've read that and tbh that I can handle but its my daughters that are the worry, will social services etc be informed as I will then be in prison with no one to mind them, its my girls im worried about

bubbuz

bubbuz wrote: »

Yeah I've read that and tbh that I can handle but its my daughters that are the worry, will social services etc be informed as I will then be in prison with no one to mind them, its my girls im worried about

Maybe you could give them to some relatives that are having a sleepover or something, then hand yourself into Garda. From reading posts, they wouldn't even know your were in jail...

Zambia

Ok so if I am to believe the replies in this thread.

If you get fined ignore it eventually you will be arrested and have to sit in a room for a few hours then released. Your fine is paid and you have no criminal record as a result? That is FUBAR.

How much money would you have to be fined to actually do a week(few days) in prison?

deadwood

Zambia wrote: »

Ok so if I am to believe the replies in this thread.

If you get fined ignore it eventually you will be arrested and have to sit in a room for a few hours then released. Your fine is paid and you have no criminal record as a result? That is FUBAR.

How much money would you have to be fined to actually do a week(few days) in prison?

There's some confusion here. This is what happens up to the gates of the prison.

Joe is convicted in court for wearing his tracksuit tucked into his socks in a public place. Fined €100 and given 14 days to pay or 4 days (imprisonment) in default.... or words to that effect.

Joe now has a conviction recorded against him. Whether he pays his fine or serves the sentence is not recorded, only the conviction.
In future court proceedings, on informing the court of previous convictions, the court will be told he was fined €100 in 2012 for the given offence. It makes no difference in future wheteher he pays the fine or does the time.

After 14 days (..ish and then some) a warrant is issued and sent to Joe's local friendly Garda Station. The nice handsome guard will then approach Joe for the money. If Joe pays the money to the nice guard, the money is sent to the courts service. If Joe can't/won't pay the fine he is brought to the prison named on the warrant. He is lodged there by the nice guard to the nice prison officers. Joe has started his sentence.

Maybe a nice prison/probation officer will explain how/why and under what conditions Joe is released and how they come to their decision.

Hope this helps.

ResearchWill

deadwood wrote: »

There's some confusion here. This is what happens up to the gates of the prison.

Joe is convicted in court for wearing his tracksuit tucked into his socks in a public place. Fined €100 and given 14 days to pay or 4 days (imprisonment) in default.... or words to that effect.

Joe now has a conviction recorded against him. Whether he pays his fine or serves the sentence is not recorded, only the conviction.
In future court proceedings, on informing the court of previous convictions, the court will be told he was fined €100 in 2012 for the given offence. It makes no difference in future wheteher he pays the fine or does the time.

After 14 days (..ish and then some) a warrant is issued and sent to Joe's local friendly Garda Station. The nice handsome guard will then approach Joe for the money. If Joe pays the money to the nice guard, the money is sent to the courts service. If Joe can't/won't pay the fine he is brought to the prison named on the warrant. He is lodged there by the nice guard to the nice prison officers. Joe has started his sentence.

Maybe a nice prison/probation officer will explain how/why and under what conditions Joe is released and how they come to their decision.

Hope this helps.

From my understanding the release is dependent on prison population, if prison over crowded then Joe left out, if prison not full then more than likely joe stays in. So as all our prisons are more than full sentences of less than a few months are turned around in a few days or even less than a day. But I personally would not take the risk knowing my luck the prison would not be full.

MagicSean

ResearchWill wrote: »

From my understanding the release is dependent on prison population, if prison over crowded then Joe left out, if prison not full then more than likely joe stays in. So as all our prisons are more than full sentences of less than a few months are turned around in a few days or even less than a day. But I personally would not take the risk knowing my luck the prison would not be full.

It's up to the warden. he can decide to release a sex offendor on TR and give you his place if he wants.

Zambia

Cool so you do have a record that would show up on a criminal record check then. at least that is something.

The process is very like what happens here except there is a Sheriffs office that enforces fines and executes warrants. If they bring you to a prison you go into the prison system for the duration of the warrant.

So how many days would Joe have to get before the prison guard said
"Yeah we really should lock this one up for a bit"?

ResearchWill

Zambia wrote: »

Cool so you do have a record that would show up on a criminal record check then. at least that is something.

The process is very like what happens here except there is a Sheriffs office that enforces fines and executes warrants. If they bring you to a prison you go into the prison system for the duration of the warrant.

So how many days would Joe have to get before the prison guard said
"Yeah we really should lock this one up for a bit"?

If the prison officials decide then Joe spends no more in prison than was stated on the order say €500 fine 30 days to pay 7 days in default. Then joe can spend from an hour to 7 days depending on prison conditions at the time. The usual at the moment is a matter of hours. But this is not guaranteed.

ResearchWill

MagicSean wrote: »

It's up to the warden. he can decide to release a sex offendor on TR and give you his place if he wants.

Yes you are correct, but the usual is less than 3 months straight out. Then low level offences with little of sentence to serve. But you are correct the warden can decide to leave anyone he wants out on TR except I think life terms or minimum terms, am open to correction on that.

Kosseegan

At the moment, in Mountjoy, it is not even getting as far as TER. There is political sensitivity about the number of prisoners on TER. Fine defaulters are just having the fine written off without being processed.

deadwood

This is why I suggested a member of the prison/probation service might explain. Sometimes costs are stated on a warrant too. Joe will stay in prison until these, at least, are paid. Again it all depends on individual circumstances.

Joe gets his bus fare home too!

Conor84

I'm in this situation now with a choice of a €700 fine or 10 days in default. It doesn't seem too bad to have to spend a night in jail at most and get the fine wiped out. It's strange that you can do that but that's the system.

Does it make any difference with your criminal record if you decide not to pay. I know I would have the conviction that lead to the fine but if I was to do the days instead would my record be any worse?

Our man in Havana

It makes no difference whatsoever.

imtired

I am due in court for non payment of a speeding fine, what will happen on the day, do I need a solicitor, and what happens if I can't pay the fine on the day? Will they give me time to pay it?