Raid looting system

][cEMAN** · 14-10-2009 8:24am #1

A point made in another thread has caused me to post this here. It's one that plays on my mind any time I consider the thought of a new guild - either joining or creating.

There are many systems available to players - the one that i'd not heard before, and caused me to make this post, was loot council. Others i'm aware of and have been in guilds who use them, are 0 point DKP, general DKP, EPGP and so on.

The question I pose though, is what has worked best for you, and what do you see as the best system? What are the pro's and cons?

Eg. 0 point DKP can cause more people to show to non progress raids because there's more chance of DKP going out (based on loot drops). So 1 day of non progress would yield more DKP than 3 days of progress. With people who think only of themselves, this can slow a guild progress right down, with no shows, or people who decide which out of the % of raid attendance days they want to show.

EPGP has a cap. The calculation for what the best set of numbers to use (decay vs gain) can take time. Some people can resent it as newer members have an opportunity to get loot over members who have been raiding for quite some time. At the other side of the coin though, some would say that they've already had their chance at loot, and used it - causing their high GP.

Loot Council - though this idea (from what i've read, and never experienced) seems just in a way, it seems to be based on long time member presence, and doesn't account for people who come and go in the guild.

Isla Crooked Ox wrote: »

Loot council is good for the guild, not the player. DKP is good for the player, and not the guild.

I think this is a fair point to make. One I would add to that is which is more apt, think not what you can do for your guild, but rather what your guild can do for you, or, think not what your guild can do for you, but rather what you can do for your guild.

One of the points i've always held with, is that even if a player is in a guild only for a certain patch phase 3.0-3.1, or 3.1-3.2 etc, the effort they put in each raid is just as important as those who have been in the guild years. So outside of rank, is it fair to give it to someone just because they signed earlier?

I've seen DKP systems where in a new phase, points are carried over, yet gaining DKP initially is difficult (again, the 0 point DKP system). It means that older members get advantage no matter what - even if they put in less effort in raids, or attend less.

So i'm wondering the pro's and con's of each system, and effectively if any is better than the rest given the idea that members may be fluid (patch to patch, rather than just a matter of weeks in the guild).

nix · 14-10-2009 8:51am

My guild have a priority bid system,

Raiders - Recruits - Socials

So raiders get priority over recruits and recruits over socials, then they bid dkp.

So the loot always goes for the better of the guild, and the bidding is great as you could spend your whole dkp on one item if another really wants it too.

Works the best ive seen tbh

][cEMAN** · 14-10-2009 9:10am

Couldn't that be used to have 1 person who knows you want the item, bid against you, just so that you drain your DKP?

Y'see what i'm talking about here is exploring the problems with the loot systems as well as the benefits. Just saying "our system is best" isn't really evaluating it in any way.

KilOit · 14-10-2009 9:18am

I think the system we use is best and lets new recruits get loot faster but we still get less dkp in a non progress raid but are good enough that if you don't show for them your dropped within 2 weeks and replaced with a more eager member. We get about 50ish dkp for non progress raid and 25 for progress raid.

Loot is based on % so a caster weapon is 50% of your dkp a tier item is 30-35% of your total dkp so if you hold onto your dkp you will use a massive ammount when you loot something were as a new recruit would use such a low number compared to you. it's not uncommon for a new recruit to get a nice item right off the bat of there first raid.

so if you need on a item it goes to the person with the highest dkp, no bidding no discussion

MT gear is decided by the him and he can take whatever he wants also ledgendays are loot council.

][cEMAN** · 14-10-2009 9:57am

What's 50% of 0dkp? A free item?

nix · 14-10-2009 9:58am

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;62530964']Couldn't that be used to have 1 person who knows you want the item, bid against you, just so that you drain your DKP?

Y'see what i'm talking about here is exploring the problems with the loot systems as well as the benefits. Just saying "our system is best" isn't really evaluating it in any way.

I never said it was best, simply posting so you could maybe do a comparison.

And yeah i guess someone could bid against you, but they could end up shooting themselves in the foot if you dont over bid them, or you could just do it back. Frankly i wouldn't go down that road as i dont care for loot as much as the next man, in my experience you get geared up in time.

Either way if a raider gets the item, its going towards the better of the guild regardless, to help progression.

][cEMAN** · 14-10-2009 10:21am

Yeah, that's the idea I think is being put forward here by everyone. There are two kinds of people who play when it comes to loot - the kind who get gear because they know it will help their performance in any group they're in (guild raid or not), and the ones who want the loot just because it's new or better than what they already have (ninjas).

I didn't mean to say that you had said your system was the best. I was making a general quote in response to you saying your system was the best you had seen. At least you stated that it was based on what you'd seen only, and not considering it best even though you hadn't experienced others.

If people posting about their current loot system can say what they think is good about it, can they at the same time say what is bad about it? Do people not think about it enough to question it? I've been in a couple of guilds where if you question anything you're pretty much singing your own ticket out of there. There have been others though who answer questions asked, and who listen to suggestions from members, and take on board good ideas. These are the ones who evolve, and get better each time by doing so. It's always the case though that the guild is only as good as its members. A name doesn't down bosses.

KilOit · 14-10-2009 10:22am

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;62531693']What's 50% of 0dkp? A free item?

you'll never have 0 dkp, on your first raid you'll have either 25-50-75dkp by the end of the raid so he'll end up with 13-25-38dkp

nix · 14-10-2009 10:33am

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;62532049']Yeah, that's the idea I think is being put forward here by everyone. There are two kinds of people who play when it comes to loot - the kind who get gear because they know it will help their performance in any group they're in (guild raid or not), and the ones who want the loot just because it's new or better than what they already have (ninjas).

I didn't mean to say that you had said your system was the best. I was making a general quote in response to you saying your system was the best you had seen. At least you stated that it was based on what you'd seen only, and not considering it best even though you hadn't experienced others.

If people posting about their current loot system can say what they think is good about it, can they at the same time say what is bad about it? Do people not think about it enough to question it? I've been in a couple of guilds where if you question anything you're pretty much singing your own ticket out of there. There have been others though who answer questions asked, and who listen to suggestions from members, and take on board good ideas. These are the ones who evolve, and get better each time by doing so. It's always the case though that the guild is only as good as its members. A name doesn't down bosses.

I didnt even see the bad in our system, thats how innocent i am i guess >_<

The best would be for the raid leaders to assign the loot, but then i suspect drama will ensue with favouritism claims etc

It would be the same ive experienced with allocating raid spots, when i healed in TBC my guild leaders always wanted me healing if possible (as i was good at it) and the other priest healers kept attacking me because of it, saying i was being greedy etc

So i feel a form of dkp will always need to be present, just so nobody can point fingers etc.

TechnoPool · 14-10-2009 10:37am

bidding i think is best.

Set amount of points for each boss , item drops , you whisper a Bid to ML then .

who ever is highest wins the item.

General Zod · 14-10-2009 10:38am

I'll copy what our system is from our raid site

Fixed price, Zero sum

The DKP system, at it's core, is a zero-sum fixed price system. This means the cost of all items are fixed in advance (see table in Appendix X), and when Bob wins an item, he pays that cost, and that DKP is distributed evenly across the rest of the attendees of that night's raid (including Bob). Please note this includes reserves, so reserves get full DKP.

Slot investment/upgrade cost

In our DKP system you don't invest in loot, you invest in a slot. So if you buy legs from Naxx-25 for 40 DKP, and legs in Ulduar cost 80 DKP - when you get Ulduar legs, you pay 80-40=40. So you're paying for the upgrade, not the whole item every time. This essentially means taking the small upgrade doesn't cost you more DKP overall.

Offspec gear

Hybrids in our raid must all maintain at least one offspec set of gear - but obviously buying two sets of gear will leave someone clearly disadvantaged in terms of DKP value compared to pure classes. As such, in DKP 3.0, all offspec items will cost 0. Offspec has, of course, lower priority than main spec. As offspec items are free, we will not use DKP as a determining factor for assigning offspec items. Instead we will look at what the best use for the item is: Highest ilvl upgrade, completing set bonus etc.

Tank priority

Due to the wonderful nature of the game we play, tank upgrades are very much asymmetrical to upgrades for DPS and healers (i.e. 1 tank upgrade can be equal to many healer upgrades in terms of improving their overall survivability). As such, tanks in general will have priority on significant upgrades. This typically means set tokens often go to tanks first, as well as some weapons and raid quest items.

Weapons are assigned

DKP value is essentially not a factor as far as weapons are concerned. Again, due to the nature of weapons and their rarity, and importance in particular to physical DPS classes, all weapons are assigned after discussion by the officers.

(L) has final say

Any loot may be assigned (including forced looting) by the raid leader as they see fit, assuming they are not one of the potential recipients. If they are, the other officers may override what the system says should happen. This is to prevent unnecessary disenchanting of gear, and to fix cases where the system says we should do one thing, but it's clearly more sensible to do something else.

Appendix X: Item cost

[B]Tier                                     T8      T8w     T8+     T9      T9+[/B]
(Ilv)                                   (226)   (232)   (239)   (245)   (258)
                                  [B]Weight[/B]
Head/Chest/Legs                  1.00    160     ---     320     480     640
Shoulder/Hands/Waist/Feet        0.75    120     ---     240     360     480
Wrist/Neck/Back/Finger/Trinket   0.50    80      ---     160     240     320
Ranged/Relic/Off-hand/Shield     0.50    80      120     160     240     320
1H Weapon (Main-hand)            1.00    160     240     320     480     640
2H Weapon                        1.50    240     360     480     720     960
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Ranged+Weapons Total Cost)     (2.00)  (320)   (480)   (640)   (960)  (1280)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Hunter) 1H Weapons              0.50    80      120     160     240     320
(Hunter) 2H-Weapons              1.00    160     240     320     480     640
(Hunter) Ranged                  1.00    160     240     320     480     640

Berns · 14-10-2009 12:41pm

We roll :rolleyes: , few rules like if won a item already that run u are lower priority than someone who hasn't won a item already. Yet if it's MS ur still ahead of OS.

Can't really keep a DKP system as we are doing joint raids at the moment with another guild. Is annoyin when loose against someone who is hardly there and isn't that well geared themselves and aint tryed to sort it out with heroics or pug raids.

There was a DKP for guild progression runs but it was on 25's only, and we aint doin them solo now so aint a option

hell knows when the dkp was last reset as feel like i'd no hope of catchin some, pity aint been workin past few months :rolleyes:

TheDoc · 14-10-2009 1:45pm

Really interesting thread.

I'm in a guild now about two months. They raid 4-5 times a week, and unfortunately I have been unavailable for most except two or three.

They run a dkp system, but to be honest, they are very much in touch. The vast majority are real life mates, so they don't ever **** each other over.

Now they are doing mostly ten mans and I'll give you an example of what happend in ulduar the other night.

Our group gathered at the steps in Ulduar, and the loot officer began addressing the raid. Her first comment was " Guys Furyio can do with some gear upgrades, so he has priority on all dps cloth drops unless he chooses to pass"

I was like " ****ing hell".

Their idea and train of thought is that I'm a decent player, and the only thing holding me back from big numbers is gear. So they feel that they need to gear me up as quick as possible, and they will start reeping the maximum benefits from me then. If they gear me up nicely quickly, I can then at a later stage, use that benefit of improved dps, to help the raids operate more efficently, to provide someone else with a quick gearup.

Whilst this raid was happening, everyone was earning DKP. Now truth be told I did not get any items from the entire run, not one thing of use. So I was given, "bonus" dkp, so that next time round I might be able to gear up.

The point I'm making is, that this might infuriate alot of people. But there needs to be a personal touch, and you have to move outside of the rigid lines.

Ive been in so many guilds were guys get recruited, milk items, then **** off to a better guild. My raid leader is taking a gamble by gearing me up asap, in the hope that I stay and help him out. Now I've got loyalty, and I will stay and help the guild progress overall.

I think your an absolute prick if you just take someone said, milk it, then **** off to to give the benefits to someone else

][cEMAN** · 14-10-2009 3:16pm

I agree. But at the same time, it's a game. You can't be forced to stay in a guild. Also, if you put in the same effort as everyone else in that raid, are you not entitled to benefit by receiving gear?

TheDoc · 14-10-2009 3:25pm

Of course you are.

But I think I understand alot more recently.

The guild I'm in although small is adept at 10 man raids.

What is happening is we are spending time gearing up people, who are simply ****ing off to better guilds and its annoying.

I dont agree with the way that method works in pugs. I get brought to a number of pug groups by various guilds, and Im not allowed loot. I dont mind that much because I'm just there for badges and raid experience, but there is going to come a time where they will be told to go ****, cause I'm not helping them out.

I dont agree with egotistical raid leaders who think they are swiss cheese.

I had a raid leader tell me I wasnt getting any loot cause my 4.2k dps on anub arak was too low. His raid assist told me before the enoucnter I was in charge of ice. So that means I've to divert away every few seconds i smack some ice, which can affect my rotation significantly.

So next try ( first one failed) i didnt hit any ice, got 4.9-5k and the RL was screaming cause there was no ice. : /

If your in a guild, the point is your in it for the long haul and you want to progress that guild, and you shouldnt need a system in place to ensure items arnt ninjad

its a pity theres an un godly number of dopes on wow.

][cEMAN** · 14-10-2009 4:06pm

At the same time, if you join a guild which is badly run, and is full of useless players, you're really destroying your own chance at enjoying the game by hanging around.

The thing I recently made clear to a guild I was trialing on just before they made me full member, was that the trialing period isn't just for the guild to see if the new recruit is suitable. It's also a time for the recruit to see if they think the guild is suitable. I didn't think it was, and I ended the trial early.

Part of this is different styles of playing the game. Some people take it seriously, some not so. Some are good but maybe aren't going to be comfortable staying in certain guilds, or maybe they just like to try new things and new people. Is it possible to have a system that benefits the guild as it stands, while at the same time rewards the individual effort each member (trial or not), puts in?

The perfect guild would have nobody wanting to leave. There is, however, no such thing as a perfect guild. Each is suited more to certain personalities, and certain levels of commitment to the game, and to raiding.

TheDoc · 15-10-2009 4:33pm

Completely agree.

But you only have to look at the pug population on my server as a whole to see you havnt much hope without a guild : /

nesf · 23-10-2009 5:09am

The raid group I'm with runs with a major/minor bidding system. Offspec is always a minor bid and minor bids only win anything if there are no major bids.

Interesting points:

No caps or limits on bids, doesn't matter if you've done 5 raids or 100 with the group.

There's no gear priority, even for MTs. That said, MTs tend to get guaranteed raid spots so they tend to be above average in dkp earning power so they tend to be able to get items they want.

You can always bid minimum even if it would mean you went into negative dkp. Such bids lose to all other major bids but beat minor bids. This means a new player with the group can gear up their mainspec before others can gear up their offspec which is both a good and bad thing (good if the player will stick around, bad if they turn out to not be a good fit for the group).

"Negative" points:

If you're new, you're at the back of the queue for gear. Personally I don't think this is a bad thing but it could bother some players a lot.

You can overpay a lot due to secret bidding. I've seen two Tier badges drop and the first go for 60 and the second for 5.

You can end up with dkp hoarding, like we're seeing at the moment with both caster and physical dps wanting for Reign of the Dead/Death's Verdict. Ditto with the end of a particular Tier of content. What you end up with is the people who had dkp hoarded at the start of a Tier and getting the big slot items early having dkp hoarded by the start of the next Tier so you tend to see a similar order in the handing out of items.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 23-10-2009 7:01am

Well Iceman, you have the loot council a little wrong. Basically the loot council would be the officers, they decide who gets what based on a few differant things. How well that player performed, how much of an upgrade it is to that person and how it will benifit the guild as a whole. For instance, we wouldn't give a rare drop item to a recruit, as who is to say he/she will stay? So we give that item to the one we trust, normally an officer, gm or core raider. Thing with loot council is people whine about the loot, "OMG I never get loot", the great thing about loot council is that people will work their asses off to be the best. Loot council requires the GM and officers to do more work, hence why very few guilds do it. Our guild was formed because the GM and some officers were fed up with not having the best loot from the raids they went to.

With DKP, any fool can show up to a raid and make a half arsed attempt at raiding, they still get the same DKP as the guy who gave 110% every try, done everything right and was outstanding over all. Both have the same chance of loot, which is unfair.

Bidding system is fair, as you tell the raid leader how much you are willing to spend on that item, you tell him how much it is worth to you. You can burn all your DKP or you can place low bids.

That erdkp system thing is the worste of the lot, do not expect progress with it.

At the moment we clear TOC 25 man in under an hour. We only get 5 DKP for the whole run, as opposed to 7 DKP for our "wipe" nights in TOCgc, we have yet to kill our first boss in there. Also, first boss kills yeild more DKP. This helps progress.

There is no truely fair system in the game. You will see officers and the GM always getting the best loot, they will make sure they are always ahead of everyone else. They can also chose who goes to the raid. If they are lower than another of their class on DKP, they can chose not to invite that member to secure loot.

As for recruits getting loot faster, the great thing about DKP is that recruits have to work for the loot. The chance of them getting anything of real importance within the first month is quite low. This will show the loyalty of that player and his determination also. I don't agree with recruits getting loot. I have witnessed it too many times, new guys get some nice loot, then skip on to a better guild, while you are struggling to clear the raid instance.

There are other varients on the above systems, but normal DKP seems to be the most common.

][cEMAN** · 23-10-2009 4:33pm

wow. Your GM made a guild to ninja the best stuff for themselves, and let the scraps go down the chain of command?

I'm impressed.

That doesn't show loyalty from new recruits, that shows a willingness to obey and be used.

A handful of top players doesn't make for an overall solid guild. If you have 5 top DPS and 1 out of 3 good tanks, and say 2 out of 5 good healers, you're putting too much onto a limited amount of players. That way, if they die, the raid fails. Spreading gear out will mean that people can die, and the raid can still progress.

*EDIT* No point in this last line. Too bitchy. My sarcasm won't teach the lesson any more than time will *EDIT*

20 Times 20 Times · 23-10-2009 5:37pm

Now now boys play nice.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 25-10-2009 4:32am

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;62669471']wow. Your GM made a guild to ninja the best stuff for themselves, and let the scraps go down the chain of command?

I'm impressed.

That doesn't show loyalty from new recruits, that shows a willingness to obey and be used.

A handful of top players doesn't make for an overall solid guild. If you have 5 top DPS and 1 out of 3 good tanks, and say 2 out of 5 good healers, you're putting too much onto a limited amount of players. That way, if they die, the raid fails. Spreading gear out will mean that people can die, and the raid can still progress.

*EDIT* No point in this last line. Too bitchy. My sarcasm won't teach the lesson any more than time will *EDIT*

It's funny how you RAGE at my posts... You also put words in my mouth...

The leaders made the guild, as they could get loot, there is no prio for officers or the GM. Do you understand this much at least?

Anyway, no, they didn't ninja, they implemented a system that people agree to upon joining the guild. It is printed clearly in our forum rules. Also, they only way for the GM and officers to get gear is to be at every raid, simple.

It does show loyalty, but since you are not in my guild, you wouldn't understand. No point making comments on my guild when you know absolutely nothing about it

For your second paragraph, our players are not that much differant from eachother. Not including our recruits. They have a very good level of gear. There is a tank prio system whicg I don't actually agree with, I was a tank up until 2 weeks ago.

Ah, what was that last line about then?

][cEMAN** · 25-10-2009 7:27am

Isla Crooked Ox wrote: »

Our guild was formed because the GM and some officers were fed up with not having the best loot from the raids they went to.

If you had said they were fed up with not getting a fair chance to roll on loot, i'd have said nothing. However, the way you worded it would make it sound like them not getting the BEST LOOT meant they went about actions of ensuring they could get the BEST LOOT. So they formed a new guild. They didn't join a different guild with a better looting system - they created a situation where they were in charge.

OK forgive me for jumping to conclusions there, but it just sounds to me like they created a position to guarantee getting the BEST LOOT - an abuse of power depending on how you look at it.

Now you've said that they don't have any priority over anyone else in the raid, but you've omitted additional information such as who decides who gets to go to the raids etc, and the potential for further creating a situation where they are more likely to get the BEST LOOT.

But hey i'm not in your guild as you mentioned, so I wouldn't know if this is the case. It may or may not be. But i'm curious....in this new guild that the GM and officers made, do they now get the BEST LOOT, or are they still unhappy?

Also, I don't think I rage at your posts. That's not my intention, and i'm sorry if it's picked up that way. I do however, often find the need to push a point in order to cut through the air of bull**** that surrounds it, in order to get to the facts and truth in the middle. It often has a nougaty taste.

Ivan · 25-10-2009 5:16pm

Loot council is still my favourite system, but it only works in a really tight knit guild and even then it can be a little biased. Worse is it can take a really long time to sort out loot and you just end up wasting time

My old guild we used a loot council, but it required a unanimous decision or it was given to someone else. E.g. if two groups both wanted the loot to go to two different people, then a 3rd person was given it instead. Guild progress comes naturally anyway, especially if people enjoy raiding. Ensuring that everyone gets a piece of loot they need every so often is infinitely more important imho. Keeping people coming is better for loot progress than ensuring that your core members are well geared.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 25-10-2009 5:55pm

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;62688497']If you had said they were fed up with not getting a fair chance to roll on loot, i'd have said nothing. However, the way you worded it would make it sound like them not getting the BEST LOOT meant they went about actions of ensuring they could get the BEST LOOT. So they formed a new guild. They didn't join a different guild with a better looting system - they created a situation where they were in charge.

OK forgive me for jumping to conclusions there, but it just sounds to me like they created a position to guarantee getting the BEST LOOT - an abuse of power depending on how you look at it.

Now you've said that they don't have any priority over anyone else in the raid, but you've omitted additional information such as who decides who gets to go to the raids etc, and the potential for further creating a situation where they are more likely to get the BEST LOOT.

But hey i'm not in your guild as you mentioned, so I wouldn't know if this is the case. It may or may not be. But i'm curious....in this new guild that the GM and officers made, do they now get the BEST LOOT, or are they still unhappy?

Also, I don't think I rage at your posts. That's not my intention, and i'm sorry if it's picked up that way. I do however, often find the need to push a point in order to cut through the air of bull**** that surrounds it, in order to get to the facts and truth in the middle. It often has a nougaty taste.

It's not my fault you can't read and chose to make assumptions. DKP systems are there for officers, simply put. How you make it out to be abuse of powers is beyond me. Most officers in guilds will have the highest DKP, because they are always in the raids. In every single guild, the officers and gm chose who goes to raids, so your argument here is useless.

The guild is over 14 months old, with a decent member base and good progress. It took a while to get things sorted.

Also, where in my posts am I bullsh!tting as you seem to suggest. :rolleyes:

Bring on more of your rubbish... :rolleyes:

][cEMAN** · 25-10-2009 6:11pm

You've still not answered my question. You've just made a post to directly flame me.

*Edit* I just found the ignore option *Edit*

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 25-10-2009 6:41pm

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;62694456']You've still not answered my question. You've just made a post to directly flame me.

*Edit* I just found the ignore option *Edit*

Typical, unable to debate proparly without moaning, whining and making crazy assumptions. Ignore away... lol :rolleyes:

Ivan wrote: »

Loot council is still my favourite system, but it only works in a really tight knit guild and even then it can be a little biased. Worse is it can take a really long time to sort out loot and you just end up wasting time

My old guild we used a loot council, but it required a unanimous decision or it was given to someone else. E.g. if two groups both wanted the loot to go to two different people, then a 3rd person was given it instead. Guild progress comes naturally anyway, especially if people enjoy raiding. Ensuring that everyone gets a piece of loot they need every so often is infinitely more important imho. Keeping people coming is better for loot progress than ensuring that your core members are well geared.

That's how we done it, 6 officers and 1 GM, if they could not decide the GM would give the final vote

Kakistos153 · 25-10-2009 9:19pm

Our guild puts as little focus on drops as possible cos once you reach a certain gear lvl its not even related to progress anymore. therefore our system is as fast and intuitive as possible.

2 dkp per boss kill
4 dkp for a first kill (encourages attendance to new raids
1 dkp per hour spent raiding
-20 dkp for afk without notice (not showing for a raid AND going afk during raid)
-50 dkp general penalty dkp for being a wanker or screwing up

Our bidding can go as high as your rank will allow. no cap to how much dkp 1 person can hold. but when new content comes out we reset the highest dkp holders dkp to 100 and cut everyone elses down on a curve basted on the highest holders old dkp compared to his new dkp (EG player1 has 200dkp, new content is released and gets put to 100 dkp. everyone elses dkp gets reduced to 50% of their old dkp)

Social: 1 DKP limit
Initiate: 30 DKP limit
Raider: 60 DKP limit
GM/Officer/Vet.Raider/ No dkp cap

IF there is noone of a higher rank bidding then 2 initiates may bid as high as they like. if a raider then decides to bid 35, their bids dont matter and the raider recieves the item for 35.

][cEMAN** · 25-10-2009 10:30pm

That's not a bad system. The upper limit on bidding is a good idea, but i'm wondering what happens if 2 people both bid max DKP, and are of the same rank?

As for the item DKP difference of one person getting it for max price, and another getting it for a fraction of the price, you have to remember that there are going to be times people will get gear simply so that it doesn't get DE'd. In those cases it's usually 0 dkp they pay. Maybe the cost of the shard to the GBank

Dustaz · 26-10-2009 5:21am

Ill never understand why people use bid systems.

I thought everyone who used dkp for items went on fixed price these days. It has its own drawbacks but its far far far better than an undergeared raid holding back and waiting for the price to drop.

Ive never been in a loot council guild , but theres a couple on our server and im fascinated by it. I guess it works if the officers are fairminded but ive heard so many horror storys about bad gms/officers that i cant see it working for many

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 26-10-2009 8:01am

Dustaz wrote: »

Ill never understand why people use bid systems.

I thought everyone who used dkp for items went on fixed price these days. It has its own drawbacks but its far far far better than an undergeared raid holding back and waiting for the price to drop.

Ive never been in a loot council guild , but theres a couple on our server and im fascinated by it. I guess it works if the officers are fairminded but ive heard so many horror storys about bad gms/officers that i cant see it working for many

With the bidding system, you spend the amount of dkp that you think the item is worth to YOU. Whereas a fixed dkp system the items have set price, which you may find good or bad. If I want to burn all my DKP on a certain item, then so be it

It's not good for the guild, only for the person in question.

As for loot council, if your in a guild that messes you about, why the hell would you stay with them? If you're stupid enough to get messed about like that then you deserve it really.

Dustaz · 02-11-2009 3:53pm

Isla Crooked Ox wrote: »

With the bidding system, you spend the amount of dkp that you think the item is worth to YOU. Whereas a fixed dkp system the items have set price, which you may find good or bad. If I want to burn all my DKP on a certain item, then so be it It's not good for the guild, only for the person in question.

Well yes and no. Most bidding systems ive dealt with involved the +1 idea, where the item goes for 1 more dkp than the next highest bid. Therefore its not going for what its worth to YOU rather its going for what its worth to HIM.

Like i said, ive been in most systems (bar loot council) and find zerosum fixed price the best by far

][cEMAN** · 02-11-2009 4:14pm

I like the idea of 0sum, but it only works if you have people who don't want to abuse it. There are 2 ways i've seen this happen.

0sum i'm taking as only DKP from loot dropped - therefore you only get DKP from boss downs and random loot drops. So if you go early in the raid week for 1 day, you can make as much DKP with all of the easy kills, than you'd make for the other 3 days. So people can build it up quickly, and take days off when they're needed for progress - helps the player, but handicaps the guild.

The other way i've seen it abused is by the guild leaders who decide that the amount of time spent in the guild deserves an additional amount of DKP, just to make sure that they get the loot before everyone else....after all in their mind, they've progressed from Molten Core to Totc 25hc. It's not like every patch/expansion is like a reset button on gear, toons, ability, players.

But yeah, I know a lot of people who swear by it.

willowywicca · 03-11-2009 2:51pm

Our loot system resets at the start of each new tier (well technically, we have different dkp values stored for every tier, since we generally raid the newest tier and the previous tier at the same time). For the each tier, the members of each class+spec will assign a relative ordering on the value of each of the possible items for each slot. Rating them from 0 to +++++

E.g. for tier 9 as a warrior tank, for the chest slot there is 4 items and they may be rated as:
t9 chest (heroic) +++++ (best)
chest of the towering monstrosity (heroic) ++++
t9 chest +++
chest of the towering monstrosity ++

This rating is based on how much of an upgrade they are over a previous tier's Best in Slot gear (0 being when it's worse than the gear from last tier). Item's can both have the same rating, if their benefit is close enough to not be discernable.

Once each class+spec combo has done this, these are translated into prices based on the slot. (i.e. + = 20% of slot value, ++ = 40% etc til +++++ = 100%) All classes pay the same amount per slot (exception being 2handed classes pay same for that one slot as others do for mainhand + offhand slots).

The price lists people come up with are publicly listed, and in case any foul play is suspected (where obvious upgrades are rated extremely lowly) other members can criticise the values and the class representative posting them has to justify them.

In actual raids then, the item drops can automatically be assigned based on certain rules (highest current dkp wins, if item is BiS for one class but not for another that class has priority etc). If an item drops and you are in line to win it, but you do not want it (e.g. you got a better item from 10man heroic raids) you can pass on the item, still getting charged the dkp for it and then it will go to the 2nd winner for it (who could similarily pass etc..). As we are officially a 25man guild this system does not penalise those who take the time to raid 10man which is outside the dkp system, nor does it penalise those who only raid 25man (since if somone got an item in 10man and never had to buy something in that slot in the 25man dkp system it would give them a net dkp advantage..)

For earning dkp, everyone who is online and available to raid on a raid night earns the dkp for that raid, not merely those who are in the raid. This to me is by far the fairest way of doing it, as not getting any dkp because your class didn't fit into the setup for a certain boss is just frustrating.. you miss out on getting to raid and you miss out on future items..

We give no incentives to members to attend progress raids, as we are a guild of dedicated raiders who all want to raid. We do monitor attendance though on a per raid basis and someone with low attendance (below 80%) will be given time to improve it, or otherwise removed from the guild if they do not. Perhaps this is too harsh for most guilds to do, I dunno. Maybe we're just lucky in having people that always turn up to all raids.

Overall I think it is a good system, the only issue is with the generation of pricing of items, as certain caps (hit/expertise) can render the value of items as amazing or crap, if you cross the hard caps. Your BiS items can vary a lot depending on your current items, so the scores you have to give to slot items may not accurately portray their current value to you at the time they drop. But it is not a huge issue, and getting one item which is currently bad due to caps but eventually is likely to be good for you is still okay tbh, even though people generally feel bitterness in the shortterm at having to spend dkp on a 'worthless' item.

It is of course pretty high maintainence as well, but it prevents the main issues of dkp hoarding (where people would pass on minor upgrades to save for bigger upgrades like trinkets) since people have no choice in whether or not loot is taken. If it is an upgrade (as listed by themselves, in their loot table) they have to take it, if it is not an upgrade then they will not be able to get it unless nobody else wants it.

Leprachaun · 03-11-2009 4:39pm

We just roll need / greed as we would in a heroic. Our guild doesn't openly recruit new people that often,we're pretty much the same group as we have been since classic launch so everyone trusts everyone else. On the rare occassion we let someone new in,they have 6 weeks of trials in ulduar/naxx before they're allowed to come to totc raids. Seems to work pretty good,and saves the hassle of keeping track of dkp.

Raid looting system

Comments