The morality of Santa

Tim Robbins

I started a thread about Santa in the parenting forum which went down like a lead balloon. Basically, I am interested in the morality of Santa.

At a cursory view, Santa is great excitement for kids. But it is also a lie and also plays on materialistic cravings.

So does the fact that it's super exciting for kids outweight the badness it's just a lie and plays on materialistic cravings? What about the fact it puts those that are poor under a bit of pressure as they can't afford all the toys little Johnny wants.

Would we be a better society if we were brave enough to ditch Santa and use a better traditions to have fun with our kids?

What's wrong with painting, art, music, singing, sport, games, nature, pets, animals, books, fancy dress etc? They don't evoke materialistic craving and are arguably better at developing kids imagination. They don't make poor families feel like they are failures because they can't get the latest toys.

I feel there are vested interest in all this.

All the companies that want you to spend your money getting things you kid probably doesn't need. They spend millions on advertising tricking your kid they need this toy when they reality is they'll be bored of it. They play on the guilt of parent if their child is disappointed. They even stick their decorations up 3 months before Christmas.

The other vested interest is parents who wish to just spoil their children. Santa for them is an easy option. All they have to do is play the game and whip out the credit card and they get a happy child. Wouldn't it be better if parents challenged themselves to stimulate their children rather than taken a pre-packaged product and picking up the tab?

Discuss...

WeeBushy

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I started a thread about Santa in the parenting forum which went down like a lead balloon. Basically, I am interested in the morality of Santa.

At a cursory view, Santa is great excitement for kids. But it is also a lie and also plays on materialistic cravings.

So does the fact that it's super exciting for kids outweight the badness it's just a lie and plays on materialistic cravings? What about the fact it puts those that are poor under a bit of pressure as they can't afford all the toys little Johnny wants.

Would we be a better society if we were brave enough to ditch Santa and use a better traditions to have fun with our kids?

What's wrong with painting, art, music, singing, sport, games, nature, pets, animals, books, fancy dress etc? They don't evoke materialistic craving and are arguably better at developing kids imagination. They don't make poor families feel like they are failures because they can't get the latest toys.

I feel there are vested interest in all this.

All the companies that want you to spend your money getting things you kid probably doesn't need. They spend millions on advertising tricking your kid they need this toy when they reality is they'll be bored of it. They play on the guilt of parent if their child is disappointed. They even stick their decorations up 3 months before Christmas.

The other vested interest is parents who wish to just spoil their children. Santa for them is an easy option. All they have to do is play the game and whip out the credit card and they get a happy child. Wouldn't it be better if parents challenged themselves to stimulate their children rather than taken a pre-packaged product and picking up the tab?

Discuss...

Did you believe in Santa as a child? I am not being facetious but if you did surely you couldn't be asking this question.

There is nothing more magical, more mystical, more incredible as a child than having santa coming to visit. My greatest memories as a child are of feeling the stocking at the end of my bed to see if santa arrived (I only got oranges, rubbers and highlighters in my stocking, but still loved it), waking up my parents, running down stairs to see what santa brought. It really made it so special. And now seeing the sheer excitement and wonder on the face of my small cousin fills me with such a warm feeling every christmas.

Now I accept completely the problem of christmas becoming more comercial (well it always has been a comercial holiday- didn't the three wise men bring lavish gifts to jesus after all ). But that's no reason to knock the holiday itself. My presents weren't the most expensive or exotic, but something thoughtful. You don't have to spend hundreds/thousands to give a good present.

Painting, art, music, singing, sport, games, nature, pets, animals, books, fancy dress don't evoke a materialistic craving and they have their place in every child's up bringing. However they don't evoke the wonder that is christmas and to deprive children of that is very sad indeed imo.

Nevyn

Prove that Santa doesn't exist and teaching children to believe in non tangible enties is harmfull.

WeeBushy

Thaedydal wrote: »

Prove that Santa doesn't exist and teaching children to believe in non tangible enties is harmfull.

I don't understand what you're saying here... Are you saying it's harmful to children if they believe in santa?

Joey the lips

I am at a loss to the logic of anti santa thread. This is not the first time i have come across them. For my 2c here it goes.

I read many books. I read science, I read true stories i read crim novels. I read economic novels.

But i also read fiction, i also read cartoons and I occasionally read and study the form on page 3.

My point!

Kids will be presented with many scenarieos(Mis spell) through there life. Santa is not a lie. Like my fiction book it takes kids to a new place for a few years. It gives them mystrey in the world. It gives the fantasy. It gives them dream. Whats wrong with that.

As for the poor. My mother would say to us as kids we will have to talk to santa and see if he can make them... Kids believe a lot and granted you might "lie" so to speak

But whats the alternative... Reality at an early stage.

I think i will risk my kids hateing me for lying.

Nevyn

WeeBushy wrote: »

I don't understand what you're saying here... Are you saying it's harmful to children if they believe in santa?

That is what the op has been postulating and I am asking him to back it up.

metrovelvet

This is aggressive secularism at its worst.

Kooli

I know from the other thread in parenting that the OP didn't believe in Santa as a child as far as I recall.

What baffles me though, is that despite the fact that EVERY poster who recalls their experience of Santa as a child speaks about it in the most fond, magical, positive terms, the OP still thinks that some abstract rule would prevent them from letting their child experience the same magic.

As a comparison - as a child, I never got easter eggs. Not one. When I have kids, I won't be hugely bothered about giving them easter eggs. Like the OP, we tend to replicate our own upbringing. BUT if EVERY person who was given easter eggs as a child told me what an AMAZING and MAGICAL experience it was each year to get them, I would put my own preferences aside (i.e. my belief that it is a bastardisation of a religious festival I don't even believe in in the first place) to give my children that wonderful experience. Thankfully, people don't really say that about easter, so I probably won't bother unless it's a big issue.

OP, I think the benefits of Santa outweigh BY A MILLION any imagined disadvantages. I believed in Santa but still hold a view of my parents that they never lied to me.

Sleepy

metrovelvet wrote: »

This is aggressive secularism at its worst.

I dunno... Santa teaches older children that these magical things you believe in as a child aren't real and should be questioned. Ergo, it could be argued that the Santa myth helps teach children that their belief in religion is likely to be no more valid than their once firmly held belief in Santa was...

Tim Robbins

Thaedydal wrote: »

Prove that Santa doesn't exist and teaching children to believe in non tangible enties is harmfull.

What sort of proof are you looking for? A priori, a posterai? Clinical trials?
How do you define harm?

Some people would think materialistic cravings aren't harmful - I would.
Some people would say not valuing truth isn't harmful - I would.

Also, I differentiate betwen Santa and other non-tangible entities such as Darth Vader as does this academic,

http://onemorebrown.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/there-is-no-santa-claus/

He makes similar points to me but leaves out the materialism part.

1. We teach our children that they cannot trust us.
2. We teach out children that the truth is not valuable.

Kooli

Tim Robbins wrote: »

1. We teach our children that they cannot trust us.
2. We teach out children that the truth is not valuable.

Well you didn't respond to my post, so I will respond to yours.

With regard to the above - how many of the people you have spoken to about their childhood belief in Santa have reported either of the above effects?

I would consider myself a skeptic and a scientific thinker, and I value those traits in myself. However, I believed in Santa. And, as I said, I still hold the belief that my parents could be trusted and never lied to me.

Magical thinking in adults is sad. Magical thinking in kids is magical. It is the only chance they will have to really believe in something magical (unless they turn into religious nutjobs) and I see no harm in it. And as per Thaedydal's post, you have absolutely no evidence that there is any harm in it. In fact you have only heard evidence to the contrary, from people who ACTUALLY experienced it (whereas you haven't) and have reported NOTHING but good about the experience. I just don't see how you can argue with that!

And it's not just about materialism. Kids get presents for Christmas whether they come from Santa or not. The excitement about Santa is the MAGIC of it!

Nevyn

Well what about other non-tangible entities such as various deities?

Nevyn

Kooli wrote: »

Magical thinking in adults is sad. Magical thinking in kids is magical.

I disagree :P

Louocb

Santa is the one magical thing that you have when you are a child you will never have that again in your life. I think your children will forgive for lying to them about it. I don't think there has been any huge fall outs over it.

Red Hand

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well what about other non-tangible entities such as various deities?

They're Santas on a bigger scale. Instead of presents, you get to go to an afterlife, whoppeeee!

Jamar

In the transition from childhood to adulthood, a person sees that their parents are not perfect: the Santa discovery is part of that.

It says, "when you are a child, I, the parent, created a world for you where you were safe. Now, you're older, and you know that this world was a necessary lie. As an adult, you need to understand that". So Santa marks a boundary between childhood and adulthood. There are many more.

It's not the only lie we tell children. But at least this lie is not about the evil we stop at the door.

Tim Robbins

Kooli wrote: »

I know from the other thread in parenting that the OP didn't believe in Santa as a child as far as I recall.

What baffles me though, is that despite the fact that EVERY poster who recalls their experience of Santa as a child speaks about it in the most fond, magical, positive terms, the OP still thinks that some abstract rule would prevent them from letting their child experience the same magic.

I don't that prooves anything.

Parents who spoil their children will have a great time, their kids will have a great. just because an experience is great doesn't mean its morally correct.

OP, I think the benefits of Santa outweigh BY A MILLION any imagined disadvantages. I believed in Santa but still hold a view of my parents that they never lied to me.

This debate is not going to get anywhere if people can't face the facts about it being a lie and just keep saying it's not a lie. That's what why the other thread went south.

It's a lie. Simple as. Check the dictionary.

The question is really what lies are justifiable and what lies aren't and why?

WeeBushy

Sleepy wrote: »

I dunno... Santa teaches older children that these magical things you believe in as a child aren't real and should be questioned. Ergo, it could be argued that the Santa myth helps teach children that their belief in religion is likely to be no more valid than their once firmly held belief in Santa was...

Don't think that really holds up to be honest. No fully developed, intelligent human being believes in santa.

Noreen1

I have the warmest memories of Santa, and the greatest respect for my parents, who always managed to make Christmas magical, despite some difficult economic times.

Interestingly, my older children now equally appreciate their early experiences of Christmas, so, in my experience, the myth of Santa does no harm.

You could equally argue that the fairy tales we read as children were harmful - yet, to my knowledge, there is no evidence to support such a theory?

Noreen

Stark

Sleepy wrote: »

I dunno... Santa teaches older children that these magical things you believe in as a child aren't real and should be questioned.

That's generally a good thing unless you want those older children growing up to be Michael Jackson.

Tim Robbins

Noreen1 wrote: »

You could equally argue that the fairy tales we read as children were harmful - yet, to my knowledge, there is no evidence to support such a theory?

Noreen

No you couldn't.

There is no widespread collusion between adults, shops, tv, teachers to insist Darth Vader is real.

Santa is in a league of his own. To make such comparisons is a gross simplification.

metrovelvet

Childhood is a magical time. Let them have it.

My god. Let them have the good parts of imagination. FFS my two year old already imagines there are dinasoars outside in the night time. I'll be damned if he cant reap the lovely rewards of having an imagination.

I think if you dwarf their imaginations so young, you are going to limit them in the long term. Think of it as another excersize in creative and lateral thinking.

JEsus Christ what is the world coming to. I despair.

miec

Hi Op

To be honest I am probably going to be accused of being a 'bah' humbag here as well but I agree with you and I am glad you raised the issue. Maybe it is my own personal issues around Santa that is coming up for me, maybe because when I lost the magic of Christmas, Christmas for me was never the same. I was brought up with the Santa myth, I used to be so excited etc, etc but when I learned it was a lie and a myth I was devasted and I could never really like Christmas (despite being a parent) until last year when my little family enjoyed it for the pure enjoyment of sharing presents, a meal and doing the stuff we wanted to do, rather than oblige others for the sake of 'Christmas'.

I think Christmas can be magical without the Santa, and personally I told my child that Santa did not exist and I came under a lot of criticism for it but I am glad. I did it for two reasons, 1) I went along with the whole Santa thing for a number of years but felt deeply uncomfortable with the lying, I resented the fact that santa got all the credit for the presents and I never liked using a make believe person as a punishment stick to ensure my child behaved eg: if you don't be good Santa will not give you any presents. To my mind that is as bad as scaring children about the boogie man, which is something I did not do either. Children get really upset if they think Santa won't come, at the same time they get so excited that they are wired to the moon for weeks, and it is not their fault. I think an awful lot of posters have misty eyed notions of Santa and Christmas and I personally believe that Santa is more for the adults than the kids. I believe over the years Christmas has become more and more commercialised and materialistic, so maybe years ago it was better in the past because the expectations were lower.

However, in this day and age parents have to buy the presents on behalf of Santa, and the child also expects a present from the parents as well, so you have to buy two lots of presents and to be honest I resented this, which is the second reason why I killed Satna off, so when my child was beginning to twig that maybe Santa doesn't exist, I told him the truth and I am glad. The whole Santa thing is built on a big lie and I am amazed at the number of people who don't believe in a God, or are scientific minded, etc that they cling to a Santa figure. Now for some odd reason, I am not scientific minded, I would love for there to be magic etc, maybe that is part of my bah humbag way, if people want to continue with the whole santa lie thing, then thats grand, but don't condemn others just because they don't want to play along with it. It is that attitude that ranks me off the most, oh and this as well, the stupid other parents that say to the child (regardless of age) 'what did Santa bring you for Christmas', when it is just a ploy to see how much the parent spent on the child. Also I have always been poor raising my child and the financial pressure every year has been horrendous because I have avoided debt so far. Christmas can be horrendous when you try to keep up with its image of the perfect dinner, trips to santas in deparment stories, children so excited they are nearly sick and I want the other posters to be honest here, have they or their children experienced the post-christmas dip, because where there is huge excitement, it can often be followed by a huge dip in mood afterwards, and finally, doing the family stuff because you have to, not want to. Christmas can be wonderful when you strip it back to its meaning, that is the giving and receiving of presents amongst loved ones, a nice meal amongst those you love and enjoy and zone out of the rest of the guff.

Kooli

miec wrote: »

Hi Op

To be honest I am probably going to be accused of being a 'bah' humbag here as well but I agree with you and I am glad you raised the issue. Maybe it is my own personal issues around Santa that is coming up for me, maybe because when I lost the magic of Christmas, Christmas for me was never the same. I was brought up with the Santa myth, I used to be so excited etc, etc but when I learned it was a lie and a myth I was devasted and I could never really like Christmas (despite being a parent) until last year when my little family enjoyed it for the pure enjoyment of sharing presents, a meal and doing the stuff we wanted to do, rather than oblige others for the sake of 'Christmas'.

I think Christmas can be magical without the Santa, and personally I told my child that Santa did not exist and I came under a lot of criticism for it but I am glad. I did it for two reasons, 1) I went along with the whole Santa thing for a number of years but felt deeply uncomfortable with the lying, I resented the fact that santa got all the credit for the presents and I never liked using a make believe person as a punishment stick to ensure my child behaved eg: if you don't be good Santa will not give you any presents. To my mind that is as bad as scaring children about the boogie man, which is something I did not do either. Children get really upset if they think Santa won't come, at the same time they get so excited that they are wired to the moon for weeks, and it is not their fault. I think an awful lot of posters have misty eyed notions of Santa and Christmas and I personally believe that Santa is more for the adults than the kids. I believe over the years Christmas has become more and more commercialised and materialistic, so maybe years ago it was better in the past because the expectations were lower.

However, in this day and age parents have to buy the presents on behalf of Santa, and the child also expects a present from the parents as well, so you have to buy two lots of presents and to be honest I resented this, which is the second reason why I killed Satna off, so when my child was beginning to twig that maybe Santa doesn't exist, I told him the truth and I am glad. The whole Santa thing is built on a big lie and I am amazed at the number of people who don't believe in a God, or are scientific minded, etc that they cling to a Santa figure. Now for some odd reason, I am not scientific minded, I would love for there to be magic etc, maybe that is part of my bah humbag way, if people want to continue with the whole santa lie thing, then thats grand, but don't condemn others just because they don't want to play along with it. It is that attitude that ranks me off the most, oh and this as well, the stupid other parents that say to the child (regardless of age) 'what did Santa bring you for Christmas', when it is just a ploy to see how much the parent spent on the child. Also I have always been poor raising my child and the financial pressure every year has been horrendous because I have avoided debt so far. Christmas can be horrendous when you try to keep up with its image of the perfect dinner, trips to santas in deparment stories, children so excited they are nearly sick and I want the other posters to be honest here, have they or their children experienced the post-christmas dip, because where there is huge excitement, it can often be followed by a huge dip in mood afterwards, and finally, doing the family stuff because you have to, not want to. Christmas can be wonderful when you strip it back to its meaning, that is the giving and receiving of presents amongst loved ones, a nice meal amongst those you love and enjoy and zone out of the rest of the guff.

Wow! You do not have a very good view of humanity!!! You think when people ask a kid what Santa brought it is because they want to check how much their parents spent??? That is madness! It is because they KNOW how exciting kids find Santa, so are giving them a chance to talk about it!!

As for Santa being 'for the adults more than the kids' I feel that actually describes YOUR reasons for not doing Santa, more so than other parents who choose to go along with it. It inconveniences YOU because you have to buy two sets of presents. It inconveniences YOU because the kids are up to 90 for weeks beforehand. It inconveniences YOU because you don't get the credit for the presents you have given!! (Do you really give presents just to be showered in gratitude by your children?)

And the true meaning of Christmas is the giving and receiving of presents and the sharing of a meal? I am baffled...

If your children experienced a 'dip' after the excitement of a birthday party, should you stop giving them birthday parties too??

Kooli

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I don't that prooves anything.

Parents who spoil their children will have a great time, their kids will have a great. just because an experience is great doesn't mean its morally correct.


This debate is not going to get anywhere if people can't face the facts about it being a lie and just keep saying it's not a lie. That's what why the other thread went south.

It's a lie. Simple as. Check the dictionary.

The question is really what lies are justifiable and what lies aren't and why?

OK well I actually believe that a lot of adults who were spoiled as children would have the self-awareness as adults to know that it was not the ideal way to be raised, so I don't think that comparison holds up.

And yes, I realise it's a lie, I'm not an idiot (thanks for the dictionary suggestion). What I was trying to suggest was that this lie did not interfere with my core gut belief that my parents were trustworthy and didn't lie. You didn't experience this so perhaps you can't imagine it, but I do think kids have the capacity to understand that Santa is a kiddie myth, that you grow out of and can then feel proud of yourself for being 'all grown up'. I don't think it shakes the trust between parent and child.

I don't believe in lying to kids in general - but I genuinely believe this lie does no harm and does a lot of good.

I don't believe in treating kids like miniature adults. Yes it would be 'honest' to tell them about all the paedophiles in the world, to tell them that their friend's daddy has a chronic drinking problem, that their aunt has bipolar disorder or that a hurricane has just killed 3000 people in Asia. Yes it would be honest, but I would want to hear a STRONGER justification for telling a four year old these things than 'I don't believe in lying'.

WeeBushy

Miec, I there are a few things here that I just don't agree with.

miec wrote: »

I think Christmas can be magical without the Santa, and personally I told my child that Santa did not exist and I came under a lot of criticism for it but I am glad. I did it for two reasons, 1) I went along with the whole Santa thing for a number of years but felt deeply uncomfortable with the lying, I resented the fact that santa got all the credit for the presents

I think its childish of you resenting the fact that santa gets the praise from a small child on the day, not you. You give presents to make others happy, not to massage your own ego.

miec wrote: »

I never liked using a make believe person as a punishment stick to ensure my child behaved eg: if you don't be good Santa will not give you any presents. To my mind that is as bad as scaring children about the boogie man, which is something I did not do either. Children get really upset if they think Santa won't come, at the same time they get so excited that they are wired to the moon for weeks, and it is not their fault.

You cannot use an evil tactic of blackmailing your children into being good "because santa wont come" as a reason not to have santa. That's just indicative of bad parenting.

miec wrote: »

I believe over the years Christmas has become more and more commercialised and materialistic, so maybe years ago it was better in the past because the expectations were lower.

I agree that christmas is becoming very commercial, but its up to you whether you buy into that commercialism - santa can still be alive and kicking in a household without parents forking out thousands on presents.

miec wrote: »

stupid other parents that say to the child (regardless of age) 'what did Santa bring you for Christmas', when it is just a ploy to see how much the parent spent on the child.

That's very cynical of you. Has it never occurred to you that parents are engaging with the child and, for want of a less patronising word, humouring them?

miec wrote: »

Also I have always been poor raising my child and the financial pressure every year has been horrendous because I have avoided debt so far. Christmas can be horrendous when you try to keep up with its image of the perfect dinner, trips to santas in deparment stories, children so excited they are nearly sick

As I've said above, you don't have to financially cripple yourself to give good presents, some of my favourite presents as a child either cost very little or were home made.

miec wrote: »

I want the other posters to be honest here, have they or their children experienced the post-christmas dip, because where there is huge excitement, it can often be followed by a huge dip in mood afterwards, and finally, doing the family stuff because you have to, not want to. Christmas can be wonderful when you strip it back to its meaning, that is the giving and receiving of presents amongst loved ones, a nice meal amongst those you love and enjoy and zone out of the rest of the guff.

Sure, I suffer that post christmas dip sometimes, but thats because it's a big occasion for me know, even as a grown up. I spend the day visiting relatives I rarely see, have quality time with my family, my uncle who lives in America comes over to visit. So even without believing in santa (or anyone in the family as we're all grown up) its a huge day for me that I really look forward to. Of course there is going to be a lull after. Wouldn't change it for the world.

Oh, and spending more than a week in close proximity with my family generally gives me a bit of a mood dip anyway. I love them dearly, but there's only so much you can handle before the rowing starts again!

elekid

Interesting thread. I'm glad my parents lied to me about santa because it made Christmas such an amazing and magical time for me while I believed in him. The important thing about it is that once I started doubting they also told me the truth, so I never felt deceived and I gained a new appreciation for them once I realised all of the presents over the years had really come from them. Being let in on the truth made me feel like I was starting to grow up.

For me the joy and excitement of getting presents from santa has been replaced by the joy of spending the day with my family and the excitement of exchanging mystery presents with them, including repaying my parents kindness as "santa" with presents of my own. The day is still magical and exciting for me because we choose to make it what we want it to be. I'm shocked that children expect presents from their parents as well as santa these days, that would never have crossed my mind but is a sign of the increasingly commercialism of it which I hate.

Of course it's one thing to find out the truth when you've started to doubt it anyway but the danger is that a child who still believes completely in santa could suddenly have something so magical ripped away from them with the truth, and I doubt I would feel the same about Christmas if that had happened to me. Perhaps that's why some parents feel so threatened when others decide to tell their children the truth about santa?

Nevyn

Tim Robbins wrote: »

No you couldn't.

There is no widespread collusion between adults, shops, tv, teachers to insist Darth Vader is real.

Santa is in a league of his own. To make such comparisons is a gross simplification.

I find the widespread collusion between certain adults, teachers, dept of education to be horrendus, when it comes to non corporeal enties being taught about in school so much for us living in secular republic with no one religion being endowed over others.

the_syco

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well what about other non-tangible entities such as various deities?

Santa exists. Sure, O've seen him on the TV. Okay, so him travelling around at the speed of light delivering all the presents is a bit far fetched, but it's less far fatched than believing some wan got knocked up by aliens, and the sprog popped down here, did a few things, became a zombie, and will bring back everyone from the dead after everyone dies...

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Instead of presents, you get to go to an afterlife, whoppeeee!

So instead of a real dude giving you real presents, you get promises from an imaginary dude?

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The question is really what lies are justifiable and what lies aren't and why?

It seems if the lie doesn't hurt anyone, and causes people to feel good, then let it continue. Look at Santa, the Easter Bunny, Jesus, Luke Skywalker...

Nevyn

Hell NORAD are in on it too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORAD_Tracks_Santa

The NORAD Tracks Santa Web site is the newest version of a public relations program by NORAD, the North American Aerospace Defense Command, involving the countries of Canada and the United States. Every year for over fifty years on Christmas Eve, NORAD has put out stories of how their powerful tracking systems, such as the Distant Early Warning Line (DEW Line), had detected Santa Claus leaving the North Pole to deliver his presents to children in North America, and in more recent years, around the world.

metrovelvet

^ I would even object to some corporal entities being taught, especially those who ordered beheadings and nuclear bombs being dropped or the widespread massacres of peoples.

St. Nicolas did exist once upon a time and in a way still does, much like the light from a dead star still shines.

Tim Robbins

Thaedydal wrote: »

I find the widespread collusion between certain adults, teachers, dept of education to be horrendus, when it comes to non corporeal enties being taught about in school so much for us living in secular republic with no one religion being endowed over others.

With religion, the adults genuinely believe. With Santa, they geninely don't.

metrovelvet

Tim Robbins wrote: »

With religion, the adults genuinely believe. With Santa, they geninely don't.

Ech. Fiction is fun. Magic is fun. There is something in the human psyche that likes to be deceived, maybe even needs to be. Otherewise, no one would read fiction, go to the movies, or allow our close ones to lie to us.

philologos

Tim, this is an excellent point. People clearly deceive their children into believing that Santa Claus exists. The "naughty or nice" element of it produces an element that they are deserving of gifts merely because they behaved as they should have, rather than it being a gift of compassion from their parents to child to celebrate the coming of Christ into the world.

I find the widespread collusion between certain adults, teachers, dept of education to be horrendus, when it comes to non corporeal enties being taught about in school so much for us living in secular republic with no one religion being endowed over others.

I don't agree with your notion that one religion is being endowed over others. There is most demand for Christian schools, hence Christian schools have been provided in the majority of cases. If there is an increasing demand for secular schools, the State should try and accomodate that.

metrovelvet

^ I dont agree with the leverage parents use to control their kids with the Santa business. When you are a child, it is the only time you believe you are good simply because you exist. That is what innocence is.

Santa was certainly not used with us in that way. The way it was explained to us is that Santa gives us the presents in celelbration of Christ's birthday. That it's like a big world wide birthday party where Christ, instead of receiving gifts, wants them given to the children, since children are a gift in themselves.

philologos

metrovelvet: Is that possible while cutting out the middle man do you think? Couldn't the parents take Santas place in celebrating Christ's birth?

metrovelvet

No. It's not the same thing.

The world is getting far too literal as it is.

Soon you'll be wanting to tell little girls there's no such thing as faries.

Tim Robbins

metrovelvet wrote: »

Ech. Fiction is fun. Magic is fun. There is something in the human psyche that likes to be deceived, maybe even needs to be. Otherewise, no one would read fiction, go to the movies, or allow our close ones to lie to us.

I agree. But as I have already said Santa is a very different type of deception.

How would you like it every adult you knew colluded to deceive you something was real? Would you enjoy that?

How would you like if this deception involved you changing your behaviour? Involved changing your conscious thoughts? Your hopes?

Rather than just a quick magic trick, this deception lasted a number of months.

Imagine something or someone you loved was just a fake and everyone was in on it.

I'd hate that.

Why should it be different for a kid?

metrovelvet

TBH I was more upset that they didnt keep up the lie, not that they told me the truth.

Look, we all got over it and it was worth it.

Tim Robbins

metrovelvet wrote: »

Look, we all got over it and it was worth it.

I don't agree with that. We live in a ridiculously materialistic society. Everyone wants more and more needless material goods than they want to give to others.

Now, Ia m not blaming it all on Santa he's just an iconic part of culture where we give the thumbs up to the materialistic lifestyle.

metrovelvet

The materialism would exist with or without Santa.

Kooli

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I agree. But as I have already said Santa is a very different type of deception.

How would you like it every adult you knew colluded to deceive you something was real? Would you enjoy that?

How would you like if this deception involved you changing your behaviour? Involved changing your conscious thoughts? Your hopes?

Rather than just a quick magic trick, this deception lasted a number of months.

Imagine something or someone you loved was just a fake and everyone was in on it.

I'd hate that.

Why should it be different for a kid?

Haven't we all already answered that? All those things DID happen to us as kids! How did we like it? We LOVED it!!!

If you imagine parents introduce Santa into their childrens' lives thoughtlessly, as a vehicle for lies, behaviour control and materialism, then of course you'd be right to question the morality behind it!

However that is NOT how it happens. Materialism is beside the point - MILES from the point, unless you don't believe children should get any presents from anyone! Materialism will be part of your Christmas as much as you choose it to be, whether Santa is involved or not.

The fact is it is a magical time, I can't emphasise that enough - MAGICAL. Children are smart enough to recognise that this is a phase they went through, and were brought through by their parents, and that moving out of this phase is a natural, though slightly disappointing, part of 'getting big'. Very few are left with the emotional scars you are imagining.

What would you say if your partner and family all LIED to you, COLLUDED with each other and encouraged you to change your behaviour through their lies with an aim to get you to attend your own surprise birthday party - would your trust in these people be irreversibly damaged because they LIED! Or can you see that all lies are not equal?

metrovelvet

^ Exactly. Dissillusionment is a big part of growing up, as is acceptance. It sucks but that's life. We practise it over and over and over again, and it will always suck, but it's nice to believe while you can.

Tim Robbins

Kooli wrote: »

What would you say if your partner and family all LIED to you, COLLUDED with each other and encouraged you to change your behaviour through their lies with an aim to get you to attend your own surprise birthday party - would your trust in these people be irreversibly damaged because they LIED! Or can you see that all lies are not equal?

Of course they are not all equal. So how do you differentiate?

Suppose you were going out with someone who kept having affairs and everyone knew but no-one said anything to you. You ignorance was bliss and when you eventually found out you were disappointed, heartbroken and very hurt. That mass collusion is a bit different to your surprise birthday party because the truth is worse than the lies. It's the same with Santa.

Whereas with your surprise birthday party the truth is better than the lies.
You end up with a party that you didn't even have to organise.

Kooli

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Of course they are not all equal. So how do you differentiate?

Suppose you were going out with someone who kept having affairs and everyone knew but no-one said anything to you. You ignorance was bliss and when you eventually found out you were disappointed, heartbroken and very hurt. That mass collusion is a bit different to your surprise birthday party because the truth is worse than the lies. It's the same with Santa.

Whereas with your surprise birthday party the truth is better than the lies.
You end up with a party that you didn't even have to organise.

Well I see the Santa thing as much more comparable to the surprise party than the affair - no one is hiding an awful truth that is SO devastating to a child that they won't cope. But if you see finding out that there is no Santa as on the same level as finding out your partner has been cheating on you and everyone knew about it, then I guess we'll just leave it there.

I'll just finish by saying that I'm confused why you brought this up - it seems like you actually believe you are the only one who has put any thought into this and that the rest of us are just blindly following the materialism machine of lies, and you are hoping to illuminate us.

You don't seem interested in others' points of view - I would imagine that you would particularly value the experience of others who actually went through the experience you seem so sure is damaging, but you find a way to dismiss what they say.

For those of us that like the tradition, you are not going to persuade any of us it does harm, because we have seen that it usually doesn't.

Herbal Deity

Kooli wrote: »

What baffles me though, is that despite the fact that EVERY poster who recalls their experience of Santa as a child speaks about it in the most fond, magical, positive terms, the OP still thinks that some abstract rule would prevent them from letting their child experience the same magic.

Here's a spanner in the works...

As a child I don't think I ever really believed in Santa. Santa confused me. He made no sense. I asked my parents how he got down the chimney and was told he "magicked" himself down it, I didn't understand this. I asked my parents why poor kids in Africa didn't get presents - they couldn't answer me. Hell, I was brought to see Santa in shopping centre grottos and it was obviously just a guy in a costume.

Maybe I was far too logical a child? I was also quite shy and obedient, so I would never have confronted my parents outright about it.

I was excited during Xmas, however. Not because of some magical fat guy coming, but because I knew I'd get a shítload of presents in the morning. I didn't really care that the explanation of their origin was illogical to me.

Ultimately, I think I'd have enjoyed Christmas just as much if I'd known it was my parents who bought my presents.

Darlughda

Kooli wrote: »

I'm confused why you brought this up - it seems like you actually believe you are the only one who has put any thought into this and that the rest of us are just blindly following the materialism machine of lies, and you are hoping to illuminate us.

You don't seem interested in others' points of view - I would imagine that you would particularly value the experience of others who actually went through the experience you seem so sure is damaging, but you find a way to dismiss what they say.

For those of us that like the tradition, you are not going to persuade any of us it does harm, because we have seen that it usually doesn't.

I'm wondering why your tone is so hostile to what is a very good question and interesting discussion initiated by the OP. Who also demonstrated that he/she is genuinely interested in others points of views and has raised some very valid observations. Without trying to convince anyone that his/her point of view is the correct one.

Whereas you have made a sweeping and inaccurate statement about EVERY (what's with all the capitals in this thread btw?) poster having such a magical experience of the whole Santa thing is just not correct.

I personally struggled with my parents disappointment when I called a day on the charade of the avuncular guy in the coca-cola ad. Yet, when I insisted I could see faeries at that same age I was told that was sheer nonsense. So, I learnt quickly Santa was an accepted lie but spirits and faeries weren't.

philologos

major bill wrote: »

heres my 2c if its worth anything. santa is the only innocent thing left in this world and to question it is wrong.

What's so wrong in saying that we are sharing with each other as Christ shared with us during His lifetime? It's about the compassion that people have towards each other rather than kids thinking they "deserve" presents for merely doing what they should be doing. Presents are something that go beyond "what should be done", but people have come to regard presents given at Christmas as something that "should be done" rather than something that goes beyond what should be done and something worthy of appreciation.

Tim Robbins

Kooli wrote: »

You don't seem interested in others' points of view - I would imagine that you would particularly value the experience of others who actually went through the experience you seem so sure is damaging, but you find a way to dismiss what they say.

I'm interested in a debate, however I don't think the pro - santities are looking at this very objectively.

For those of us that like the tradition, you are not going to persuade any of us it does harm, because we have seen that it usually doesn't.

See what I mean...

Tim Robbins

Jakkass wrote: »

What's so wrong in saying that we are sharing with each other as Christ shared with us during His lifetime? It's about the compassion that people have towards each other rather than kids thinking they "deserve" presents for merely doing what they should be doing. Presents are something that go beyond "what should be done", but people have come to regard presents given at Christmas as something that "should be done" rather than something that goes beyond what should be done and something worthy of appreciation.

The capitalist / materialist agenda has completly perverted and usurped the Christian Christmas as it is sending a completly different message than the Christian one of "agape". I am surprised the Church isn't the first organisation to publically declare Santa is a lie.

In fact, this was another thing that confused growing up. Like another poster, I never believed in Santa, I always that it odd and illogical for a number of reasons. However, I could never get the way my church / school / mother / nana would remind us of the real meaning of Christmas was Christian celebration. Then why does Mr. Santa have to show up?

It would have been more believable if the tradition was that Jesus came down the chimney.

No disrespect to Christians btw.

miec

Kooli

[FONT=&quot]As for Santa being 'for the adults more than the kids' I feel that actually describes YOUR reasons for not doing Santa, more so than other parents who choose to go along with it. It inconveniences YOU because you have to buy two sets of presents. It inconveniences YOU because the kids are up to 90 for weeks beforehand. It inconveniences YOU because you don't get the credit for the presents you have given!! (Do you really give presents just to be showered in gratitude by your children?). [/FONT]

All of the above is correct in my case, but I am only admitting to what some people feel but dare not say. Why should a fictious character be the giver of presents, yes I do want the credit for giving the gifts. It may be childish and egotistical but it is how I see it. The above is a huge inconvenience to me thank you very much, a stressed out parent makes for an unhappy parent. Take a look at people before Christmas, look at their faces, are they the faces of happiness?

[FONT=&quot]Haven't we all already answered that? All those things DID happen to us as kids! How did we like it? We LOVED it!!![/FONT]

No, you loved it, there are scores and scores of adults who are homeless, alone, no friends, children who are abused, etc, etc who are made even more miserable by Christmas.

[FONT=&quot]The fact is it is a magical time, I can't emphasise that enough - MAGICAL. Children are smart enough to recognise that this is a phase they went through, and were brought through by their parents, and that moving out of this phase is a natural, though slightly disappointing, part of 'getting big'. Very few are left with the emotional scars you are imagining[/FONT]

Again, it was magical for you and you are one of the lucky ones. You cannot speak on behalf of other people and say they did not have emotional scars from Christmas.

[FONT=&quot]You don't seem interested in others' points of view - I would imagine that you would particularly value the experience of others who actually went through the experience you seem so sure is damaging, but you find a way to dismiss what they say. [/FONT]

And you are shoving your viewpoints down everyone's neck in this thread.

Wee Bushy

[FONT=&quot]You cannot use an evil tactic of blackmailing your children into being good "because santa wont come" as a reason not to have santa. That's just indicative of bad parenting[/FONT]

Yes I can, and I did, it is not bad parenting, you are just throwing out lame, nonesensical phrases that bear no relation to my statement.

Jackass

Tim, this is an excellent point. People clearly deceive their children into believing that Santa Claus exists. The "naughty or nice" element of it produces an element that they are deserving of gifts merely because they behaved as they should have, rather than it being a gift of compassion from their parents to child to celebrate the coming of Christ into the world

Thank you for a sensible arguement and this was the point I was trying to make.


The only arguement I can agree with from the pro-santa viewpoints is that Christmas would be made materialistic irrespective of a Santa because in general our world has become more commericialised and materialistic. However, it is very easy for people to say don't buy into it and ignore the marketeers etc. In reality though it is very difficult because we are social animals and group consciousness is very powerful, when you are bombarded with messages everywhere to buy this and make it a happy Christmas, or have this table layout for the perfect Christmas, etc, etc, it is a powerful message to break free off. Just look at all the magazines ads, the talks on the radio, the TV programmes, etc, etc all saying telling us how to have the perfect Christmas and this involves cost, energy, time etc, and for what, one day of feasting and giving of presents. The expectations for Christmas are huge and personally I am not in favour of it.

There are people out there bracing themselves for Christmas because they have no one to share it with them, they sit lonely in their rooms, houses, hotels etc, wondering whether to get drunk, drugged up or completely opt out. This is the dark side of Christmas. There are kids out there who are homeless or have a druggie parent, etc, etc, where is their Christmas magic? Or the parents who really want to give their children all the material goods they can because their children are begging and pleading them all day, every day, for weeks and weeks, well now I should say months on end. It is a drip, drip effect, it is draining. The parent gets stressed because they don't have enough money to give the child what they want, and even when they do, the child then ****s it on the floor or the toy/object is broken within a few days, but that parent has to pay for it for the next six to ten months and then it is the whole rigmarole again. Where is the joy and magic in that?

These parents feel they have no choice but to keep on providing in this manner, because there is hardly anyone out there saying do it differently. Again I will reiterate, we are social animals, we have a group mentalilty that goes with the herd, and most of us don't like to be different or outside of the mainstream and that is why many parents continue on in the materialist struggle and in my opinion there is something soul destroying in it.

As for Santa himself, is he an object of innocence, is he the last bastion of wide eyed innocence? Look at the messages that surround him, there is the naughty and nice ethos, that is if you are good, you get a present, if you are bold, you don't, but Santa is a myth so he does not decide on whether you get a gift or not, the parent does, so they are not the bad guy if Santa does not get them the present they want, Santa takes the rap for it, so the kid blames Santa, not the parent (so it is a cop out for the parent, whilst I get the credit for the present, I equally get the blame when I don't get my child the present of their choice). The other message about Santa is the joy of giving, but look at the process of giving a little deeper, you should only give a gift because you want to, that is my belief, but because it is Christmas, we have to give a present, so often gifts can be given with resentment. Now for those of you with loving familes, who get on well with everyone I know you will say, but we do get joy from giving, but not all of us have that, and often there is gift giving at Christmas in the office or workplace and you may have to give a gift to a co-worker you don't like (that is just one example). For people who are very poor (and with this recession that number is higher than ever and people are already stressing) the cost of Christmas is horrendous and how do they keep up, they stress about buying 'cheap' presents and will they be seen as cheap. So Santa and giving is very mixed up.