Most creative song you ever heard?

Iamcharlie

I would have to say Kanye West's Stronger by far the production is one of the best I have ever heard.

Rockshamrover

That's a very hard question to answer tbh as it all comes down to personal taste.

I'm not a big Queen fan but I think they would have to be in the top ten most creative songs with Bohemian Rhapsody.

BumbleB

the jumbo breakfast roll .

Iamcharlie

Rockshamrover wrote: »

That's a very hard question to answer tbh as it all comes down to personal taste.

I'm not a big Queen fan but I think they would have to be in the top ten most creative songs with Bohemian Rhapsody.

I don't see how that was a productive? The vocals were quite cool but other then that the song wasn't hard to create.

BumbleB wrote: »

Lucy in the sky with diamonds.

PaulBrewer

Iamcharlie wrote: »

the song wasn't hard to create.
]

On 16 track ..... You reckon ?

In context of what was going on at the time ?

I see :rolleyes:

Rockshamrover

Iamcharlie wrote: »

I don't see how that was a productive? The vocals were quite cool but other then that the song wasn't hard to create.

Yeah you're probably right Charlie about the productive side. But I was thinking about the creative thing you have in the thread title. As in being creative, doing something that hadn't been done before.

Rockshamrover

PaulBrewer wrote: »

On 16 track ..... You reckon ?

In context of what was going on at the time ?

I see :rolleyes:

Paul,

Who would you put in the top ten list? Kanye goes without saying but who else?

PaulBrewer

Are we talking about the same song ?

Daft Punk's track with rapping on top ? Hardly a creative milestone by any stretch of the imagination ..... or am I missing something ?

jtsuited

Iamcharlie wrote: »

I would have to say Kanye West's Stronger by far the production is one of the best I have ever heard.

First of all the question you pose 'most creative song you ever heard?' makes no sense.

Secondly regarding that Kanye West track....are you fcuking kidding me????? The production is one of the best you've heard? It's a mess. Timbaland had to come in and try to make sense of it and ended up just putting in an 808 kick after 11 mix engineers couldn't get the track to sit right.

Rockshamrover

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Are we talking about the same song ?

Daft Punk's track with rapping on top ? Hardly a creative milestone by any stretch of the imagination ..... or am I missing something ?

Yeah but it's KANYE WEST! It's more than likely 64 tracks too, Queen only used 16. You admitted to that earlier.

That makes Mr West 4 times more creative than Queen.

PaulBrewer

Rockshamrover wrote: »

Yeah but it's KANYE WEST! It's more than likely 64 tracks too, Queen only used 16. You admitted to that earlier.

That makes Mr West 4 times more creative than Queen.

Fair enough, I can only count 3 , Daft Punk's stereo track and the vocal , No? .....

Rockshamrover

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Fair enough, I can only count 3 , Daft Punk's stereo track and the vocal , No? .....

woodsdenis

Iamcharlie wrote: »

I would have to say Kanye West's Stronger by far the production is one of the best I have ever heard.

I think this poster is joking, right


because


"Diamonds from Sierra Leone" is definitely the most creative ever.

DamagedTrax

sonically creative? musically creative? whats the question?

i guess i could name 500 songs of the top of my head that blow my mind creativly but how the hell do you compare?

and kanye west??? im sorry iamcharlie but that guy shouldnt be allowed near a sampler, his tunes are possibly the least creative in the urban scene.. i mean sampling an entire chorus from curtis mayfield "move on up" and rapping over it??? ... hardly the apex of creativity.

although he gets a little more creative with his marketing.. i mean the whole MTV awards drama was possibly the most out there marketing idea yet.. pick on a little girl, get booed off stage and have to cancel your european tour dates.. slick :cool:

check out some arrested development or early busta rhymes (b4 dre got involved) or ANYTHING raphael saadiq was involved in.. thats some real creativity from the urban scene.

Rockshamrover

woodsdenis wrote: »

I think this poster is joking, right


because


"Diamonds from Sierra Leone" is definitely the most creative ever.

I knew there was something missing from the original.

"Saltzman's major objection was to the sexual innuendo of the lyrics. Indeed, in an interview for the television programme James Bond's Greatest Hits composer John Barry revealed that he told Bassey to imagine she was singing about a penis."

blackbetty69

personally i would choose the milkshake song

Rockshamrover

blackbetty69 wrote: »

personally i would choose the milkshake song

To much cow bell.:D

Seziertisch

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Are we talking about the same song ?

Daft Punk's track with rapping on top ? Hardly a creative milestone by any stretch of the imagination ..... or am I missing something ?

It definitely is a triumph of mixing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDghOVNedsM

BumbleB

jtsuited wrote: »

First of all the question you pose 'most creative song you ever heard?' makes no sense.

Secondly regarding that Kanye West track....are you fcuking kidding me????? The production is one of the best you've heard? It's a mess. Timbaland had to come in and try to make sense of it and ended up just putting in an 808 kick after 11 mix engineers couldn't get the track to sit right.

well done jsuited beat me to it. Op your question is as confusing as you are .

PaulBrewer

Ah yes I saw that before ok !

Lots of WAVES stuff ...

Seziertisch

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Ah yes I saw that before ok !

Lots of WAVES stuff ...

No actually, some waves stuff, but mountains of outboard as well. There was a more detailed breakdown of the mix in SOS at some stage, some serious processing going on. Splitting and recombining signals. Chaining eqs and compressors etc.

PaulBrewer

Aye - just watching him talk about John Mayer and 'hardware eqing' ...

krd

Rockshamrover wrote: »

Yeah but it's KANYE WEST! It's more than likely 64 tracks too, Queen only used 16. You admitted to that earlier.

That makes Mr West 4 times more creative than Queen.

I wouldn't rate it as the most fantabulous production of all time. The rides are interesting. I how you can do those nowdays with a pencil tool.

There's a video interview with Trevor Horn up somewhere, where he talks about doing volume rides manually before the advent of being able to do the rides on a sound file.

As Trevor Horn puts it - rides used to be done manually. And he says it's something they should get people in engineering schools to learn how to do and to practice. He said with the analog desks and tape - even before automated desks - he would sit with a lyric sheet and try to get a performance on the desk riding the volume as the singer was doing their thing.

With music that uses samples - there's usually much less production then people think - apart from the original production carried out on the original piece of music the sample is from. That other synth pad that's on it sounds really good - but I've heard it on a lot of dance records that came out the same time (Sounds even better under the influence of a particular substance).

I wonder without the bling bling ultra capitalist R'n'B fantasy that goes along with the Kanye West video - how fantastic it actually sounds - There's a weird thing with in media production in how you can sometimes hear with your eyes and see with your ears.

There are literally hundreds of recordings that you could argue extensively whether they're more creative or not. The Daftpunk original is fantastic - But what's Kanye West on about - most rap is some dickless twat trying to chat up a girl.

Kanye West is as nearly is as bad as Will Smith for taking entire 4 bar and 8 bar segments - and placing his rap over the top.

How many rap tunes are produced if any of you would like to take a crack at it - search for the rap stems of Kanye or whoever else - get an 4 bar or 8 bar segment of something you like - If can be anything, a middle 8 from a queen song - stretch them both until they're at the same BPM. Place them together - chop in and out bits - have 8 bar segments with no vocal - add a synth pad at some point. If you use more then 8 tracks you're using too many. If you want to get the punchy out sound of Kanyes vocal - draw in rides to drop you 'beat' at the point he's rapping.

I love the Notorious big hypnotize version that uses an Elton John song as the beat - I can't find it any more on youtube though - it really transforms the tune, with gospel singers and lots of brass - and you can clearly here want BIG is on about.

I'm not too concerned about doing it myself - but if anyone would like a little competion - If someone has a link to some interesting rapp stems - I'm willing to give it a go - as a competition - Give me something construction to do? - How's about it folks - Who's got vocal stems?


For creativity and use of samples creatively - I'd go for Danger Mouse's grey Album.

Tits and bras, ménage à trois, sex in expensive cars
I still leave you on the pavement
Condo paid for, no car payment
At my arraignment, note for the plantiff
Your daughter's tied up in a Brooklyn basement (shh)



The man was a poet.

Iamcharlie

'In music, sampling is the act of taking a portion, or sample, of one sound recording and reusing it as an instrument or element of a new recording.'

Or in daft punks case, collect a few of your favorite records that most people wont have heard, add robot voices, then re-release.

In all fairness, there are a few tracks where they have creatively used the samples, that is all well and good, but I do not see the point in taking someone else's music, making minor changes, then releasing it as your own.

DamagedTrax

Iamcharlie wrote: »

'In music, sampling is the act of taking a portion, or sample, of one sound recording and reusing it as an instrument or element of a new recording.'

Or in daft punks case, collect a few of your favorite records that most people wont have heard, add robot voices, then re-release.

In all fairness, there are a few tracks where they have creatively used the samples, that is all well and good, but I do not see the point in taking someone else's music, making minor changes, then releasing it as your own.

so why cite kanye west as creative when thats blatantly all he does.. or am i missing sarcasm in the original post?

BumbleB

Are you not contradicting yourself here ?.

I have all his albums as I am an avid hip hop fan but I personally think kanya is a rubbish producer ,rubbish rapper ,he's a good dresser and great at causing controversy .Dre , wyclef and Timbaland all the way with me.

His whole ego thing is because he lacks self confidence .By the way a lot of 80's songs are far more creative than current pish. Eg Blue monday.

dav nagle

DamagedTrax wrote: »

sonically creative? musically creative? whats the question?

i guess i could name 500 songs of the top of my head that blow my mind creativly but how the hell do you compare?

and kanye west??? im sorry iamcharlie but that guy shouldnt be allowed near a sampler, his tunes are possibly the least creative in the urban scene.. i mean sampling an entire chorus from curtis mayfield "move on up" and rapping over it??? ... hardly the apex of creativity.

although he gets a little more creative with his marketing.. i mean the whole MTV awards drama was possibly the most out there marketing idea yet.. pick on a little girl, get booed off stage and have to cancel your european tour dates.. slick :cool:

check out some arrested development or early busta rhymes (b4 dre got involved) or ANYTHING raphael saadiq was involved in.. thats some real creativity from the urban scene.

Eminem getting balls in his face now that was the shizzle

krd

Iamcharlie wrote: »

'In music, sampling is the act of taking a portion, or sample, of one sound recording and reusing it as an instrument or element of a new recording.'

Or in daft punks case, collect a few of your favorite records that most people wont have heard, add robot voices, then re-release.

In all fairness, there are a few tracks where they have creatively used the samples, that is all well and good, but I do not see the point in taking someone else's music, making minor changes, then releasing it as your own.

Sometimes sample can be used in a very creative way. You can look up all the samples DJ Shadow used for Entroducing and Preemptive Strike. Which he did on an old MPC - which are not easy to work with. Or Norman Cooke for the Fat boy slim stuff.

On the other hand you have the Will Smith/MC Hammer/Kanye West method - Take an obscurish 8 bars from another record and loop it - maybe - but in the case of Will Smith, no - adding a little percussion and some synths.

Is Kanye West the new Will Smith - are all his fans and people who think he's the snizzle actually dorks?

BumbleB

I personally think dance producers have done a much better job creatively by far in the sampling area like the prodigy for example and some of those ibiza anthems like "needin u" - david Morales.

Seziertisch

I'm going to come out and say that I am a big fan of Kanye. Think what you might of him, on a production level his records really are top drawer. The people involved are just too good to dismiss them.

People like Timbaland and Jon Brion don't **** around when it comes to making tracks happen. I read the full breakdown of the mixing of Stronger by Manny Marroquin and as much and all as I might fancy that I have good ideas when it comes to mixing, I read it and came to the conclusion that he was at least a couple of leagues ahead of me.

I also think Kanye has his **** together as a lyricist. Sure, it is self aggrandisement and he comes off a cock a lot of the time, but he really has a great turn of phrase.

chordtype

Windowlicker by Aphex Twin and Get Ur Freak On by Missy Elliott/Timbaland. Just my 2 cents.

potsy11

Ya'll dont have a clue.

Leroy Troy is the best banjo player out their. Check him out. If he was in a cage fight with Kanye, Timberland and Missy Elliot They would all come out rednecks.

Check it.......:cool:

Mr Floyd

Big Radiohead fan so i think a lot of their songs fall into this category, probably the most obvious would be Paranoid Android, others would include Wolf at the Door, National Anthem, Bodysnatchers, 15 Step...

Pa the Blah

this is a tough one.... but I see most of the acts tracks ppl are talking about are done on comps samplers etc sure they are creative music is just that, creative! for me you need to rewind with the likes of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_and_Bebe_Barron, feck the lengths they went to not only for the music but for sound... coming closer to our time I think 10cc's "I'm Not in Love" for the vocal multitrack and layering was quite forward thinking and pre sampling to boot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_Not_in_Love

splitrmx

krd wrote: »

The Daftpunk original is fantastic - But what's Kanye West on about - most rap is some dickless twat trying to chat up a girl.

Daft Punk "original"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3AKrwna2C8

PaulBrewer

splitrmx wrote: »

Daft Punk "original"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3AKrwna2C8

Class Split ! Who da Phuck did HE sample ? Maybe Kanye West ??

krd

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Class Split ! Who da Phuck did HE sample ? Maybe Kanye West ??

I used to think Daftpunk used somthing like a Vocoder or autotune to get the robot voices - but he uses a Talkbox - which a far more rudimentary insturment - it's a hose pipe and a speaker http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQtI9PuQYcI

DAft punk playing live in 96 - this is really worth seeing - he's using 'Guitar pedals' and possibly a 303 or more likely an Mc 303 - but it's amazing to see, considering how precarious the equipment is (I wouldn't fancy trying to get loops going on a foot pedal in the dark with my hand)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBr524HaaCU

There are no magic buttons on those pieces of equipment. They're not easy to use to start with.

TelePaul

I rather like Solid Air by John Martyn. Alot going on in the background in that, vibraphone, Danny Thompson's awesome bass and the congas. And JM's voice sounds like a saxophone.

Iamcharlie

Kanye west is top shiz. As a lyricist and producer he always sells.
I am just saying the stronger beat took 11 mixing engineers, 2 of the worlds best producers to create and master. In other words it rocks.

jtsuited

Iamcharlie wrote: »

Kanye west is top shiz. As a lyricist and producer he always sells.
I am just saying the stronger beat took 11 mixing engineers, 2 of the worlds best producers to create and master. In other words it rocks.

no it's an awfully arranged turgid mess that noone could get sounding even acceptable. eventually they did. and now it sounds like an acceptable mess.

Iamcharlie

jtsuited wrote: »

no it's an awfully arranged turgid mess that noone could get sounding even acceptable. eventually they did. and now it sounds like an acceptable mess.

Oh yeah. 2.1 million copies is a mess.

jtsuited

nice logic.

krd

jtsuited wrote: »

no it's an awfully arranged turgid mess that noone could get sounding even acceptable. eventually they did. and now it sounds like an acceptable mess.

'Mess' is not as simple as it would seem - Bob Marley and the Wailers 'African Herbman' sounds like a mess when you play it through anything like an ordinary stereo - but when it's played loud through a bashed up tannoy, the mixing sounds like absolute genius - the bass is nice and dubby - it gently vibrates your rib cage - everything else sounds really clear in it's own way (And no - I wasn't stoned when I heard it - Dub reggae sound crap on nearly anything apart from a tannoy).

11 engineers in this day and age. Is overkill.

If you want to hear absolute mud - listen to any Wu Tang album

But what something is going to be played on in the end of the day is as important - Phil Spector's Tina Turner River Deep failed to be a hit supposedly that all though it sounds majestic on good speakers - if you played it through a car radio of that period it comes out sounding like an annoying fizzy mess.

I did some stuff that I personally like recently (screw everyone else) where the bass sounds great on my crap speakers (I have proper monitors - but I haven't bothered to plug them in - I really should get round to it ) - But - Big BUT - if I play the stuff through laptop speakers the bass completely vanishes - so if anyone else hears, it sounds like nothing, because the bassline is the thing - everything else is just parsley.

If you're making commercial music - you sacrifice everything to the current listening formats - Crappy laptop speakers, crap I-pod headphones, crunchy boy racer car stereos for bling bling boyz living the dream.

But where's the production with Kanye west - get your beats done on an MPC - record your rap, do a bit of layering - hand it over to someone to fix the Eq - and like Kanye do simple bu effective volume rides, on the backing beatz, to make his vocal pop out - The arrangements are not even that complex - cut a bar off the beat out on the 4th bar of phrase, When Kanye is sayin something really deep like - Don''t act like I never told ya

The magic secret with Kanye West is getting a good vocal preformance - And then flash fantasy videos for all the dicks and dick chicks.

Personally I think Kanye is very talented - but he's also a dick,
who's full of sh1t.

His crap about 808's - I can never hear it, apart from the odd kick.

If you want to hear what an 808 sounds like and what the big deal is listen to

Mantronixs - The crew of 85 - Needle to the Groove.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PANMP5xsMLs

Two turntables and a microphone - an 808 and a Vocoder - and I think an early Akai sampler.

PaulBrewer

krd wrote: »

everything else is just parsley.

I'll use that phrase in the future if you don't mind ...;)

Seziertisch

I think the 11 engineers is referring to mix engineers. 11 guys tried and failed to mix what turned out to be a hit.

krd

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I'll use that phrase in the future if you don't mind ...;)

I have to say, the line is from Michelle Pfeiffer - In The Fabulous Baker Boys - A film anyone with any involvement with music should see or have seen

Ms. Pfeiffer uses it in a musical context. In the same context to my own use of the term.

If you haven't seen the film you really should watch it. - Michelle even has a plate in front of her, She picks up the parsley, says the line, then throws it away.

I feel like Mick Fleetwood's bit in the running man - There was a time before Simon Cowell - before the loudness wars - before everything was ****

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TULYBRHBAs

mattfender

In one of the passion pit songs it sounds like the arpeggiator or midi notes on the synth is opening a gate on the drum overheads using the sidechain...sound class, if thats what they did!

krd

Seziertisch wrote: »

I think the 11 engineers is referring to mix engineers. 11 guys tried and failed to mix what turned out to be a hit.

I'm sure the thought as crossed everyone elses mind.


What would happen if you got 11 master chefs to go into a kitchen, to prepare a simple R'n'B chicken broth?

TelePaul

Seziertisch wrote: »

I think the 11 engineers is referring to mix engineers. 11 guys tried and failed to mix what turned out to be a hit.

Yeah there was a big piece on it in Sound on Sound a while back.

krd

mattfender wrote: »

In one of the passion pit songs it sounds like the arpeggiator or midi notes on the synth is opening a gate on the drum overheads using the sidechain...sound class, if thats what they did!

No it's not sidechaining - Sidechaining is used a lot in recent dance music - it has a particular sound to it - you take a very plain baseline without a pulse and make it instantly sound like it's got a groove in it once you side chain it with the drums.

Kanye's 'sound' is meticulous use of volume riding using a pencil tool - once you know what's being done you can really hear it clearly - you hear the backing track droping back rapidly when his voice comes through - a side chain would have a really unnatural pulse sound to it. I heard something else by Kanye on the radio this morning - and I could clearly hear the volume riding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDghOVNedsM

Using a pencil tool to meticulous go over a performance isn't rocket science - it probably takes days or weeks to get what you want - but you can pencil the reverbs and the delays as well.

(I know from penciling MIDI (Delay/Reverb/Cutoff/ADSR) on Ableton it doesn't take very long - if you're trying to add depth to the preformance it probably requires a lot more thought - but it just literally takes a few minutes to pencil in impressive pans - or filter changes. - The Volume rides on Kanye sound pretty harsh)

People may have being doing this for a while - Nearly all rack mounts for different things that have been available since the 90s have MIDI capabilities - so even on a very rudimentary PC/Mac based MIDI sequencer - there would have been the possibility of penciling in very fast volume changes.

What makes Kanye West so great - is he's such a sexy superstar - If I wasn't such a hard ass gangbanger driveby shooting mofo - I'd like to have sex with him myself - (Don't know if he's a taker or a reciever though) - Peace,,, Love ,,, forget all the haters - Got to run and sell some rocks of crack

krd

What does not kill me, makes me stronger.
Friedrich Nietzsche

I'd missed the point completely before, that Kanye's tune was a discourse into Nietzchean philosphy.

But, Thinking about it now, it makes sense. What with him having to be a hard ass crack dealing gangbanger - off'in all kinds of people at the slightest sign of disrespect. A cold minded killer, with the heart of a lover. Finding sucess and fame purely by accident through the poetry and hip-hop he'd privately sought succour and solace - against the back drop of his nihilistically violent 21st century life.

He's for real - he's not some pampered upper middle-class boy acting all street. He's deep.