Dublin Bus Gate - Let DCC councillors know what you think of it

Conor20

You may know that the decision to implement the Dublin Bus Gate (made by the DCC- the Dublin City Council) was a controversial one and the decision was anything but unanimous. Several groups with commercial interests (particularly car parks) opposed the measures.

It's clear that many people are benefitting from the Bus Gate - public transport users, cyclists, as well as the improvements in air quality and noise levels in the area. However, the commercial interests (who are blaming the bus gate for a drop in revenue) and opposing councillors are again pushing strongly to have the Bus Gate removed. This will be debated by the DCC in November. The opposing councillors will likely push at least for the temporary removal until Christmas and will have compiled many strong arguments for this. It is felt by pro-Bus Gate councillors that if a temporary removal were implemented, it’s unlikely it would ever be reinstated.

In accordance with the natural trend that people unhappy with something are more compelled to make their voices heard, there hasn't been a great amount of feedback in support of the Bus Gate received by councillors and so it will be a difficult case to argue. This is where you come in - if you feel the Bus Gate has a positive effect on you, let the DCC know. Particularly your local councillor. The prospect of a vote is always a good way to influence a councillor or politician.

The e mail addresses of every councillor is available on the DCC's contact page here.

Labour Councillor Andrew Montague, who sits on the DCC, informed us of the above situation at a meeting of the Dublin Cycling Association recently.

Conor.

penexpers

Conor20 wrote: »

Andrew Monique,

His name is Andrew Montague and he posts here occasionally.

TinyExplosions

What's a bus gate?

tomasrojo

Very good point. Andrew Montague deserves all the help he can get. He's the most pro-cyclist public figure we have in the country, as far as I can see.

petethedrummer

Like all the bus and cycle lane initiatives, my only problem is that it is compromised from the start. It should be 24 hour or at the very least 7am-7pm. None of this 07:00-10:00, 16:00-19:00, sometimes a clearway, sometimes pay parking, sometimes a loading bay nonsense like on most bus lanes.

What really baffles me is that the bus lanes are enforced during peak traffic but not at off peak times. Why not?

Lumen

TinyExplosions wrote: »

What's a bus gate?

Here.

TBH I couldn't care less about the bus gate. If anything it's made College Green more hazardous as the traffic speeds are higher.

seamus

My only criticism is that it should be enforced using ANPR so that Gardai don't have to waste time pulling people over. The only hassle I've had with the "Gate" was from ordinary commuters trying to squeeze past in an effort to get through as quickly as they can without getting caught.

Tell people they're on camera and they won't even try.

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

If anything it's made College Green more hazardous as the traffic speeds are higher.

I go that way every morning and I don't agree. There are far fewer vehicles in the area. If you are going right on to Dame st, you have far more space and time to signal and let everyone know of your intentions. Before, you would have to wind your way(or not) through a tailback of buses and cars, criss-crossing the lanes.

This morning for example no vehicles over took me from D'Olier st until I got to Dame St.

The taxis are going faster yes, but thats because they are actually moving now.

flickerx

TinyExplosions wrote: »

What's a bus gate?

Tiny the bus gate is from Pearse Street in towards Dame Street and College Green, only buses and taxis can use it at peak hours, private traffic has to use another route. There's no actual physical gate, but if you get caught driving through there at those times, I think you get a ticket.

flickerx

I think the bus gate is a good idea and I'm going to email the councillors. There are other options for drivers. Its better to have free flowing lanes for public transport users.

Jip

I drive in the city centre almost as much as I do cycle and I think the bus gate is a bloody nightmare. I feel for the short distance the ban is in place causes way too much disruption elsewhere around the city for the little benefit it gives in such a small space. At the very least the new bridge should have been opened before it was implemented.

Have you tried getting across the quays from the IFSC/Gardiner Street direction on a bike, let alone a car, since it came into effect ?

Lumen

petethedrummer wrote: »

I go that way every morning and I don't agree. There are far fewer vehicles in the area. If you are going right on to Dame st, you have far more space and time to signal and let everyone know of your intentions. Before, you would have to wind your way(or not) through a tailback of buses and cars, criss-crossing the lanes.

This morning for example no vehicles over took me from D'Olier st until I got to Dame St.

The taxis are going faster yes, but thats because they are actually moving now.

I go through the bus gate and down Nassau St. The traffic is thinner and faster. The peds at the gate are even stupider, because the reduced traffic density means they don't feel the need to wait for a green light. This morning I may have actually threatened to run one of them over. The shame.

Cars hoon down Nassau St now, and this makes crossing the lanes to go down Dawson St a little trickier.

I felt safer filtering through the traffic jam the way it was before. Just saying.

seamus

Jip wrote: »

Have you tried getting across the quays from the IFSC/Gardiner Street direction on a bike

Every day, and the quays are no different to how they've always been, but D'Olier St is now empty, which is great.
In a car, much like every other trip into the city, you need plan your route from start to finish. You can't just rock up to Dame St and then try to figure out how to get to the Point.

petethedrummer

Jip wrote: »

Have you tried getting across the quays from the IFSC/Gardiner Street direction on a bike, let alone a car, since it came into effect ?

Yes, every morning passed the IFSC and its the same as it ever was. I have to cross 3/4 lanes but there are ways of doing it that reduce risk.

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

I felt safer filtering through the traffic jam the way it was before. Just saying.

Fair enough, but if you're method for increasing cyclist safety is to cram more cars into a given area then I won't be making you my minister for transport.

Jip

seamus wrote: »

Every day, and the quays are no different to how they've always been

They are in their nelly ! All lanes trying to cross from the north to the south are crammed with cars, with traffic coming from the docks turning over the bridge often blocking the way over the bridge for both cyclists and pedestrians due to traffic being unable to cross the bridge due to the quays being packed. Same goes for trying to get onto the south quays from Pearse Street in the evenings.

Lumen

petethedrummer wrote: »

Fair enough, but if you're method for increasing cyclist safety is to cram more cars into a given area then I won't be making you my minister for transport.

I have no particular strategy in mind, but I'd suggest that a key reason why the south quays are more hazardous for cyclists than the north quays is due to the greater speed differentials.

petethedrummer

Jip wrote: »

They are in their nelly ! All lanes trying to cross from the north to the south are crammed with cars, with traffic coming from the docks turning over the bridge often blocking the way over the bridge for both cyclists and pedestrians due to traffic being unable to cross the bridge due to the quays being packed. Same goes for trying to get onto the south quays from Pearse Street in the evenings.

So what are you proposing? Easing restrictions on cars as a means to free up the city or would do you think better public transport would help you on your particular journey?

I'm not trying to be awkward, but we really need to give up on cars as being an option for travelling in the city centre.

alfalad

As an occasional bus user and cyclist that uses the bus gate I think it has worked very well. The college green area was always packed and didn't move half the time. I have often sat on the bus for 5 minutes while it has a green light but can't move cause it was so packed. Not since the bus gate though, traffic moves much more freely, never hold ups trying to get onto college green. As for cycling, I feel it is much safer as you have space to move and you are not winding your way between rows of cars.

So i think it has worked well and when people who drive the car so it can just sit in the office car park all day realise it's quicker and cheaper to either cycle or get the bus then it will work even better!

On the shop owners and car parks giving out, lot of shops don't open till 10, and I doubt many shoppers come into start their shopping at 5. The fail in demand is due to the economy and not the bus gate.

Doctor Bob

Jip wrote: »

Have you tried getting across the quays from the IFSC/Gardiner Street direction on a bike, let alone a car, since it came into affect ?

I ride the quays and the bus gate every day on my way home.

And I don't agree that it improves this short stretch of road only- the benefits of the gate stretch from Parnell Square to Nassau Street to Christchurch, as drivers have to choose a different route a good bit further out, so they don't (or shouldn't, in theory) get anywhere near the gate in the first place.

The time savings for buses are pretty significant- I've heard mention of 15-20 minutes on some routes. And it's not just the time savings- service reliability has gone up too.

I'm less convinced of the benefits to cyclists, but that's a result of the plan not being comprehensive enough (and a result of it being designed by the bus network designers). Traffic volumes are way down, but speeds are up considerably and the scissors-like lane changing in front of Trinity is still a too-regular occurrence. And that's before we get to pedestrian behaviour. I don't think the traffic lights have been re-jigged to favour the pedestrian crossings, so this, combined with the standard Dublin pedestrian mentality of ignoring the red man (ingrained from years of institutional neglect: ~10 seconds in a ~120 second signal cycle will do that to even the most patient citizen), means there's a virtual pedestrian free-for-all in the vicinity of Trinity, to the detriment of cyclists.

So I give it a qualified thumbs-up, with the proviso that its failings should not be seen to constitute a reason to abandon it, but rather a reason to strengthen it. It's a step in the right direction, but only a step. Hopefully it signals an emerging shift in the thought processes of DCC's roads and traffic department.

(It's interesting to note that the main opponents to the bus gate are car park owners, specifically the Brown Thomas car park, which is one of the most expensive in the city. Here's a thought- maybe the demand for €3000 handbags has fallen off for other reasons recently?)

Conor- what's the Dublin Cycling Association? Is this the same as the Dublin City Cycle Forum (Councillors, Cycling Officer, Guards, Cycle Campaign, etc.)?

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

I have no particular strategy in mind, but I'd suggest that a key reason why the south quays are more hazardous for cyclists than the north quays is due to the greater speed differentials.

Thats fair enough, but letting more cars on the south quays is not the way to make it safer. Or maybe thats what you are suggesting?

Jip

I agree that there are too many cars in the city centre, hence me cycling into the city more often than not these days. But there needs to be viable alternatives such at the bridge I mentioned previously. I'd have no problem with the gate as long most of the traffic that used that route wasn't forced onto 2 lanes along the quays. When the bridge opens it should relieve a huge amount of traffic from the south quays and IFSC in the mornings, and Pearse Street in the evening.

Things like this need to be properly planned etc, not implemented in an ad-hoc method.

petethedrummer

Doctor Bob wrote: »

And I don't agree that it improves this short stretch of road only- the benefits of the gate stretch from Parnell Square to Nassau Street to Christchurch, as drivers have to choose a different route a good bit further out, so they don't (or shouldn't, in theory) get anywhere near the gate in the first place.

Yes I have to agree with this also. All the way up to Christchurch and beyond is much more civilised now.

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Conor- what's the Dublin Cycling Association? Is this the same as the Dublin City Cycle Forum (Councillors, Cycling Officer, Guards, Cycle Campaign, etc.)?

http://www.dublincycling.com/

20 quid to join. Only been to one meeting myself, nice bunch of intelligent people.

seamus

Jip wrote: »

They are in their nelly ! All lanes trying to cross from the north to the south are crammed with cars, with traffic coming from the docks turning over the bridge often blocking the way over the bridge for both cyclists and pedestrians due to traffic being unable to cross the bridge due to the quays being packed. Same goes for trying to get onto the south quays from Pearse Street in the evenings.

How long have you been doing that route? Aside from the summer months, the bridge at custom house quay has always been a nightmare.

The introduction of the bus gate made no difference to traffic volumes in that area, they've only become bad again in the last 6 weeks, i.e. when the schools went back.

flickerx

Doctor Bob wrote: »

(It's interesting to note that the main opponents to the bus gate are car park owners, specifically the Brown Thomas car park, which is one of the most expensive in the city. Here's a thought- maybe the demand for €3000 handbags has fallen off for other reasons recently?)

Yes, definitely. Brown Thomas might not have noticed, but there's this thing on at the moment called a "recession", which generally means people dont spend their money on useless, overpriced rubbish as freely.

markpb

Conor20 wrote: »

Labour Councillor Andrew Montague, who sits on the DCC, informed us of the above situation at a meeting of the Dublin Cycling Association recently.

Consider all the Dublin North Central councillors duly poked. Thanks for the update.

As both a cyclist and a bus commuter, I think the bus gate is fantastic and couldn't support it enough. I agree with Doctor Bob's comments that pedestrians are still being shafted - it seems DCC don't give a damn about their concerns - sure they can always jaywalk anyway.

getmoving

One of the major benefits of the bus gate has been the increase in the average speed of buses passing through the city centre from 6kms per hour to 13 kms per hour.

As a cyclist, public transport user and driver, I think the bus gate is great and another big step towards making the city centre safer for cyclists.

Make sure you write to all the councillors in your area and make your voice heard

Conor20

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Conor- what's the Dublin Cycling Association? Is this the same as the Dublin City Cycle Forum (Councillors, Cycling Officer, Guards, Cycle Campaign, etc.)?

Apologies, I meant Dublin Cycling Campaign (http://www.dublincycling.ie/), not Association. Some members have representation on planning/transport committees and, among other things, it works to influence legislation and planning in the positive interests of cyclists.

Lumen

petethedrummer wrote: »

Thats fair enough, but letting more cars on the south quays is not the way to make it safer. Or maybe thats what you are suggesting?

I'm only suggesting that the bus gate hasn't made any positive difference to my perception of safety, and I'm speculating as to why that might be the case.

I'm sure the bus gate can survive on the basis of making buses go faster; I don't think it needs the flimsy (in my opinion) cycling safety case and I'd rather that particular powder was kept dry for issues which make more of a difference to me, like the crappy road surfaces on other parts of my commute.

Jip

seamus wrote: »

How long have you been doing that route? Aside from the summer months, the bridge at custom house quay has always been a nightmare.

7 or 8 years. It has never been that bad, traffic trying to turn left once over the bridge towards the docklands was never held up due to traffic trying to get onto the south quays.

mmclo

I think I'm right in saying all car parks are still accessible...the impression given in the media is of literally a gate closing on the whole city!!

Doctor Bob

Conor20 wrote: »

Apologies, I meant Dublin Cycling Campaign (http://www.dublincycling.ie/), not Association. Some members have representation on planning/transport committees and, among other things, it works to influence legislation and planning in the positive interests of cyclists.

Aah, thanks for the clarification. I'm aware of the Campaign, and that there's a Cycle Forum in the City Council on which some Campaigners sit, hence the confusion.

And thanks pete too.

(I wish the two DCCs would agree which one of them has rights to the acronym! )

mmclo- all car parks are indeed still accessible, and the Council has made a point of highlighting the car-friendly routes on maps.

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

I'm only suggesting that the bus gate hasn't made any positive difference to my perception of safety, and I'm speculating as to why that might be the case.

I'm sure the bus gate can survive on the basis of making buses go faster; I don't think it needs the flimsy (in my opinion) cycling safety case and I'd rather that particular powder was kept dry for issues which make more of a difference to me, like the crappy road surfaces on other parts of my commute.

Ok, but in poll of 3 people (me, you and doctor bob) 66% thought it made journey safer.

Anyways apart from the (disputed) safety at that particular point, I think this move combined with others will make the city a nicer place to be on a bike, bus and on foot.

markpb

Doctor Bob wrote: »

mmclo- all car parks are indeed still accessible, and the Council has made a point of highlighting the car-friendly routes on maps.

A lot of people don't take a map with them, they think they can just drive into the city centre and figure it out. That might be naive but it happens. I think DCC could do a lot more to make the city easier to drive through (while still retaining positive influences for public transport and cyclists).

Chips Lovell

I was kind of sceptical about the bus gate, but I'm delighted to have been proved wrong. I thought that most of the congestion around D'Olier Street was down to the buses themselves. It was a bottle kneck if you on a bus and a pain to negotiate on a bike, with buses pulling in and out and traffic getting stuck waiting for them.

Anyway, in my experience, it's introduction cut down on the bus journey time significantly. D'Olier Street and and College Green are also much easier to deal with by bike. No more constant braking and overtaking. Lane changing is much easier too given the lighter flow of traffic.

TinyExplosions

Lumen wrote: »

Here.

TBH I couldn't care less about the bus gate. If anything it's made College Green more hazardous as the traffic speeds are higher.

That's what I thought too, but was wondering why it was mentioned on a cycling forum!

flickerx wrote: »

Tiny the bus gate is from Pearse Street in towards Dame Street and College Green, only buses and taxis can use it at peak hours, private traffic has to use another route. There's no actual physical gate, but if you get caught driving through there at those times, I think you get a ticket.

Ah! A bit of a google sorted it out, but why call it that if there's no physical gate? Seem s stupid to me!

I go that way each morning and evening, and it's cut down the traffic by a huge amount... I also like seeing the motorists get pulled over, but I'm sad like that!

AMontague

petethedrummer wrote: »

Ok, but in poll of 3 people (me, you and doctor bob) 66% thought it made journey safer.

Anyways apart from the (disputed) safety at that particular point, I think this move combined with others will make the city a nicer place to be on a bike, bus and on foot.

Cyclists are voting with their pedals. The number of cyclists passing through the Bus Gate has increased from 2977 to 3996 (a 34% increase) since the Bus Gate opened. That's based on a 12 hour count from 7am to 7pm in February and September 2009.

It would be a shame to reverse that trend by giving in to the pressure and closing down the College Green Bus Gate

flickerx

AMontague wrote: »

Cyclists are voting with their pedals. The number of cyclists passing through the Bus Gate has increased from 2977 to 3996 (a 34% increase) since the Bus Gate opened. That's based on a 12 hour count from 7am to 7pm in February and September 2009.

It would be a shame to reverse that trend by giving in to the pressure and closing down the College Green Bus Gate

Seriously, I am well impressed with your positive stance on cycling - but even more so coming on here and making your presence known, and interacting with us.
On the off chance you're in the Bernard Shaw pub on the 24th for the cycling event there (Goldsprints roller racing at 9pm), I'll happily buy you a pint or two.
And possibly bend the ear off you with my wishlist...

I've only recently started going through Dame Street again during the week and compared to what it was like cycling that way a few years ago I have to say it's near bliss.

BostonB

AMontague wrote: »

Cyclists are voting with their pedals. The number of cyclists passing through the Bus Gate has increased from 2977 to 3996 (a 34% increase) since the Bus Gate opened. That's based on a 12 hour count from 7am to 7pm in February and September 2009.

It would be a shame to reverse that trend by giving in to the pressure and closing down the College Green Bus Gate

I'm guessing the cycle to work scheme would have helped too. Still I didn't realise it had increased that much. Not bad at all.

Have to say I never liked cycling through the area, my route being O'Connell bridge, round college green and then Nassu St. Too many lanes, and too much lane changing going on, and too many buses. Some time I come down dame st and turn right up trinity st and this does seem lighter. Kinda felt exposed being in so little traffic. Its not a route I use much tbh. Nassu street I still wouldn't be keen on. I'm not fond of routes with lots of bus parking/stops. They either just don't look properly, or pull out deliberately. Regardless if its a bicycle or a car.

monument

Cycling is my main mode of transport and the area feels far nicer to cycle in with less traffic. I'm also sometimes a bus users and bus times seem to have really improved in the area.

But even just walking around the area at the times the bus gate is in operation is far, far nicer. It's so quiet, it's nearly a shock to the system at first. Just the other day a friend who normally wouldn't be in the city centre too much asked me as we were walking by why it so quite, just before remembering the bus gate.

tomasrojo

I just cycled for the first time through the bus gate. (My usual routes don't take me that way.) It's only one impression, but it does seem noticeably easier to navigate than previously.

Bunnyhopper

Bus Gate Causes Recession Shocker....

I particularly like the 'loony Greens and loony Labour' comment :rolleyes:

Legal challenge to College Green bus corridor
Friday, 16 October 2009 16:03

A group of Dublin city centre businesses are taking a legal challenge against the council's bus corridor at College Green.

13 businesses including Brown Thomas, Weirs, Louis Copeland as well as shopping centre and car park owners, will go to the High Court on Monday.

They are claiming that the council's decision is causing a critical loss of trade in the busiest quarter of the year.
Advertisement

The Dublin City Centre Business Association has produced figures showing that the rush hour ban on private cars at College Green is damaging evening trade in the capital.

It says business is down every evening and Thursday night, which is one of the busiest of the week, is down by 36%.

DCCBA chief executive Tom Coffey described the bus gate decision as a 'irresponsible political action by loony Greens and loony Labour'.

The legal challenge comes as the Mandate union, which represents many of the 25,000 retail workers in the city, expressed concern at the threat to jobs in the city centre as a direct result of the car restriction.

Fine Gael Cllr Gerry Breen said he was hopeful that the evening bus gate will be lifted at least for Operation Freeflow which starts at the end of next month.

A spokesman for the city council said that the manager will be holding further meetings on the issue.

Labour Cllr Andrew Montague disputed the DCCBA figures, saying that numbers in the council's south city carpark had returned to normal just one week after the bus gate was introduced last July.

He said it was now easier to get into the city with one bus route doubling its average speed through College Green where pedestrian figures are up 6% and cyclists up 34%.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1016/transport.html

DBCyc

OMG I was so going to buy a new wardrobe & accessories this winter and was on the way to the BT car park when some gorda stopped me from driving around Trinners so I said "screw that" and headed for Dundrum. They will so never get my business again

Victor

There is a group supporting the bus gate here: http://www.facebook.com/pages/College-Green-Bus-Gate/155591513018?v=info#/pages/College-Green-Bus-Gate/155591513018?v=wall

petethedrummer

Can we get one of these counters? I suppose there would have to be a cycle lane for it to work.

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/10/cyclists-counting-themselves.html

Ste.phen

This is very possibly the *only* good thing DCC have done for the majority of commuters in quite a while, DO NOT BACK DOWN, this saves a ton of time in both directions on my commute (i'd hazard 10 mins in the morning, 5-10 in the evening)

Jip

Saw this crowd on the 6.1 News last night, unfortunately they looked like your usual rag bag of scruffy students and hippy types, not a fred or euro amongst them

Cyclists in new drive to save bus gate
By Paul Melia
Wednesday October 28 2009
CYCLISTS have launched a campaign to keep the controversial Dublin city centre bus gate open on a permanent basis, saying it has had a "huge impact" on commuting times.

The campaigners -- including TCD Students' Union, the Dublin Cycling Campaign, and political representatives -- said traffic times had improved and more people were walking through College Green than before the ban was introduced last July.

City traders claim the ban is killing business but Dublin Bus said journey times on all routes have been cut since it began.

Previously, it took buses an average of 20 minutes to travel from O'Connell Street to Nassau Street, with journey times of 35 minutes not uncommon. Now, it takes just 11 minutes, or 18 minutes in very heavy traffic.

Cars are banned from using College Green from 7am to 10am and 4pm to 7pm, Monday to Friday. Retailers have threatened to take a High Court case against the ban, claiming it is responsible for a loss of trade.

Yesterday, 'Keep our bus gate open' campaign spokesman Barra Roantree said the bus gate was working and had increased cyclist numbers by 62pc.

"The average speed of peak-hour traffic has more then doubled from 5kph to 13kph. Footfall around College Green has increased 6pc, which is good news for our local businesses.

"The bus gate has given us a cleaner, less congested, city which is good for commuters and good for business. We'll be putting pressure on Dublin City councillors to do the right thing and keep the bus gate open."

The future of the controversial bus gate will be discussed at a meeting today. Councillors are to meet city manager John Tierney over the traffic restrictions. Mr Tierney will then make a recommendation to the council on Monday night on the scheme.

- Paul Melia

Irish Independent

Lumen

Whilst I'm a bit ambivalent about the Bus Gate, it grates slightly that BT are whinging about sales being down.

Perhaps if they didn't charge €200 for a t-shirt manufactured in the far east for €2 they might sell some more.

Also....their sales totty wear too much makeup.

Jip

Lumen wrote: »

Also....their sales totty wear too much makeup.

That, and the fact that the look down their nose at you if you're not dressed as if you're on a date with a supermodel, you're just a tarted up shop assistant FFS !!

markpb

Ste.phen wrote: »

This is very possibly the *only* good thing DCC have done for the majority of commuters in quite a while, DO NOT BACK DOWN, this saves a ton of time in both directions on my commute (i'd hazard 10 mins in the morning, 5-10 in the evening)

Have you mailed your councillors to tell them that? Do it now.