Who the hell can I vote for ?

bauderline

So I am starting to think about this two years out.... Who the hell can I vote for ?

- I have a problem with FG as the entire upper echelon of the party appears to be spineless and without direction, they have no clear policies, they just oppose most things the government puts forward. The country will require a strong leader going forward and Enda just isn't it.

- I have a problem with labour in that they are much too close to the public sector and the associated unions. They are likely to introduce a raft of new taxes and only make minimal cuts in public spending. In the current situation the country finds itself in this is unacceptable. I just can't see Gilmore tackle the unions in the way that is needed.

- Greens. No chance. For failing to pull the plug on the current government and also for proposing to introduce further loony taxes...

- Sinn Fein. Hell would have to freeze over first.

- SWP. The end of time/universe as we know it would have to happen before I vote for them.

- FF. Failed policies of the last ten years, extensive corruption, incompetence, social partnership, weak leader... they need to go and not come back for a long time until they have rebuilt the party from the ground up.

I think a lot of people will be scratching their heads at the next election.... maybe we need Richard Pryor's "None of the above" candidates....

Ludo

I liked your post until I spotted your sig. You are saying there is no party worth voting for (which I strongly agree with you on) while trying to promote a new party? Come on now....tell us what you are really saying.

cavedave

One way to get some inkling on this is to do the political compass test and see what party you come out nearest. It is not perfect but might give you some more idea where you stand versus the others.

As for hating all the politicians, you always have to go for the least worst option in politics. No one will ever match what you believe fully. As South Park put it "it's always between a giant douche and a turd sandwich. Nearly every election since the beginning of time has been between some douche and some turd. They're the only people who suck up enough to make it that far in politics. "

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You forgot to mention the strange whiff of "celtic supremacy"

bauderline

Well I'll be dipped !!!

Smack Bang right on top of the green part dot... Excuse me whilst I go shoot myself....

bauderline

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

My aim is to raise the possibility of alternatives be they good or bad to the current raft of political parties... I really do think we need alternative options in the next election....

ectoraige

I'd been interested in Amhrann Nua, sent in some queries on their website last week, but if they have to resort to trolling boards.ie to get attention, they can't be worth much.

What a cheap post.

ectoraige

bauderline wrote: »

My aim is to raise the possibility of alternatives be they good or bad to the current raft of political parties... I really do think we need alternative options in the next election....

Ever heard of honest debate? Does everybody in Amhrán Nua think misleading people is the best way to garner interest?

bauderline

ectoraige wrote: »

Ever heard of honest debate? Does everybody in Amhrán Nua think misleading people is the best way to garner interest?

Listen, let me be vividly clear about this, I do not represent the views or thoughts of Amhran Nua. My post is a personal one and has nothing whatsoever to do with Amhran Nua.....

Editing sig as my thread is being hauled off topic by rent a mob...

Joey the lips

Christmas is coming so hell should freeze over.... Just lets hope that you get a winter election.

I usually vote on the basis of the person not the party otherwise i would never vote. Then again i use my TD's to get stuff done in the area.

ectoraige

bauderline wrote: »

Listen, let me be vividly clear about this, I do not represent the views or thoughts of Amhran Nua. My post is a personal one and has nothing whatsoever to do with Amhran Nua.....

Editing sig as my thread is being hauled off topic by rent a mob...

Apologies; as your sig had included the terms "link to us" and "we need", I'd thought it safe to assume that you were involved. That combined with the thread pointing at failings of all the established parties made it seem quite cynical.

bauderline

Joey the lips wrote: »

Christmas is coming so hell should freeze over.... Just lets hope that you get a winter election.

I usually vote on the basis of the person not the party otherwise i would never vote. Then again i use my TD's to get stuff done in the area.

LOL! Fair Play !

Interesting point you raise though, I think A LOT of people in rural Ireland vote on local issues and local candidates, taking this into account the reported demise of FF may be somewhat exaggerated, they are not holding on for grim death for the next two years for the hoots, I think they genuinely believe they can ride this one out...

Long Onion

Bauderline - who will you vote for, would you actually vote for Amhran Nua?

GatePost

bauderline wrote: »

Who the hell can I vote for ?

Maybe you could start and take some responsibility for your own actions, no?

bauderline

ectoraige wrote: »

Apologies; as your sig had included the terms "link to us" and "we need", I'd thought it safe to assume that you were involved. That combined with the thread pointing at failings of all the established parties made it seem quite cynical.

Well.. fair point actually... mea culpa....

bauderline

Long Onion wrote: »

Bauderline - who will you vote for, would you actually vote for Amhran Nua?

At the moment... No... But I will be watching to see how it evolves...

bauderline

GatePost wrote: »

Maybe you could start and take some responsibility for your own actions, no?

Crap post on your part !

At no point have I indicated I do not take responsibility for my actions. I stand behing everything I say and do, when I get it wrong, which I do sometimes as I do not claim to be perfect, I admit to it.

My point is simply this...at the moment I would find it very difficult to vote for any of the established political parties, I either disagree with their core policies or fail to see what policies they have that so that I can judge what they stand for. IMO none of them are fit for purpose !

If I had to vote tomorrow I would look for an independant candidate....

Biggins

To get back to the original question, I too now would vote for an independent or issue candidate putting themselves forward.
If more would do the same the clowns currently infesting the Dail would get the message, their ways are not wanted.

Until some sort of alternative better behaving, etc, org/party is more prominent thats the only route I can see.

turgon

Biggins wrote: »

To get back to the original question, I too now would vote for an independent or issue candidate putting themselves forward.

I would disagree. A single-issue candidate or an independent is not going to get this country back on it feet. It might damage the party system yeah, but how are a group of independents going to co-ordinate economic recovery? The pressing issues at the moment are national and thats why we need TD's with national issues.

In the end it comes down to voting for the least worst party.

Rob_l

turgon wrote: »

I would disagree. A single-issue candidate or an independent is not going to get this country back on it feet. It might damage the party system yeah, but how are a group of independents going to co-ordinate economic recovery? The pressing issues at the moment are national and thats why we need TD's with national issues.

In the end it comes down to voting for the least worst party.

While I agree with you that voting for single issue or independant candidates, wont allow us to steer this country in a singular national direction, I think the idea of voting for a party not becasue I believe they can do some good but because they are they are the least inept is also a very dangerous idea.

Biggins

turgon wrote: »

I would disagree. A single-issue candidate or an independent is not going to get this country back on it feet. It might damage the party system yeah, but how are a group of independents going to co-ordinate economic recovery?

By actually taking to each other and coming to a basic understanding? You know, like other some practical vast different organisations and members! O' look - the EU! A larger example.
Each with their own countries individual representative issues but coming together for the common good and working things out!

turgon wrote: »

The pressing issues at the moment are national and thats why we need TD's with national issues.

Where does it say independent TD's can't get together and address national issues?
Sure they might have their own personal issues but seeing as they are willing to stand up and care for something, surely with the same amount of willingness within them already, they are also willing to address such larger problems too!

turgon wrote: »

In the end it comes down to voting for the least worst party.

In other words, the least less evil?
(I wouldn't like to chose between Pol Pot, Hitler and Stalin types for example (only) if they were running for a same election!)
Thats just madness. Bad is bad, no matter to what degree.
Once you start going down a slope heading down, you've chosen the direction of your country.

---

It boils down to this.
If we all started saying with our votes that we are no longer willing to prop up the farce that is the present parties, they would damn soon have to get their act together more so.
Until then, we can only blame ourselves for the continuous musical chairs system in the Dail.

turgon

Biggins wrote: »

By actually taking to each other and coming to a basic understanding?

Some independents will favour NAMA style schemes, some will favour a "good bank," some will favor temporary nationalization and recapitalization, some will favour permanent nationalization and the merging of all the banks into one big state bank. Its probable that a few free-marketeers will advocate doing nothing. In complex situations like this "basic understanding" is hard to come by and so time consuming that the government will slow down and be nearly ineffective.

Biggins wrote: »

You know, like other some practical vast different organisations and members! O' look - the EU! A larger example.

What you are trying to say is that because 27 nations can agree on certain measures that are clearly beneficial to all, such as a single market, a group of 80 independent representatives can co-decide every single decision to be made for a whole country. Its a very poor analogy.

The EU is fortunate enough that areas where what constitutes the "common good" is ideologically divisive are left to the member states.

Biggins wrote: »

Sure they might have their own personal issues but seeing as they are willing to stand up and care for something, surely with the same amount of willingness within them already, they are also willing to address such larger problems too!

They will care for what they believe in. And fundamentally your not going to get 80 people to believe in the same things.

Imagine if FF operated on a system of complete independence. No central ideology whatsoever, every man for himself. The government would have collapsed many times over. FG and Labour would be in. Imagine they operated on the same system. They would also have collapsed many many times over.

Its a completely unsustainable type of governance.

Biggins wrote: »

If we all started saying with our votes that we are no longer willing to prop up the farce that is the present parties, they would damn soon have to get their act together more so.

I would prefer the current system - poor government - to the system you propose which will end up being no government. In the Road to Serfdom Hayek argues exactly this, that if decisions are to be taken by everyone eventually the lack of consensus will drive governance to a halt.

Biggins

turgon wrote: »

Some independents will favour NAMA style schemes, some will favour a "good bank," some will favor temporary nationalization and recapitalization, some will favour permanent nationalization and the merging of all the banks into one big state bank. Its probable that a few free-marketeers will advocate doing nothing. In complex situations like this "basic understanding" is hard to come by and so time consuming that the government will slow down and be nearly ineffective.

So your saying that by discussion and a democratic process they can't come to a satisfactory conclusion?

turgon wrote: »

What you are trying to say is that because 27 nations can agree on certain measures that are clearly beneficial to all, such as a single market, a group of 80 independent representatives can co-decide every single decision to be made for a whole country. Its a very poor analogy.

Its one example used analogy. Ther are many, many others being used daily in work places. Don't shoot the whole process because one example used also has its flaw and well at its good points!

turgon wrote: »

They will care for what they believe in. And fundamentally your not going to get 80 people to believe in the same things.

Really?
To use one rough example: all the waring factions up north have had different ideas about how to do things.
With time, talk, and a bit more willingness to see sense they are coming around to the path of peace across the board.
Who will blindly stand up still and say many sides can't come at times together and reach the same principles!

turgon wrote: »

I would prefer the current system - poor government - to the system you propose which will end up being no government. In the Road to Serfdom Hayek argues exactly this, that if decisions are to be taken by everyone eventually the lack of consensus will drive governance to a halt.

Poor system or just BAD system? Same thing in politics but just PR word spin.
Bad governments still leads to a downwards slope. Its damn hard to climb back up it and if the present operating parties don't want to go that direction as the present lot don't wish to do by not introducing some much needed changes, the rollercoaster slope is still pointing downwards the majority of the time.

----

I'm not advocating that we should be voting independent at every election.
But until the main groups get the message, come and get their act together, a message has to be hammered home to them.

Until we do that, nothing will bloody change. We will stick in one fashion or other with the same type of characters/actions within the Dail.
Knowing that one way or another they will be always propped up by willing complacent sheep of this country, gives them a basic reassurance that their positions are comfortable to some extent ...and thus we continually get what we get!

ei.sdraob

cavedave wrote: »

One way to get some inkling on this is to do the political compass test and see what party you come out nearest. It is not perfect but might give you some more idea where you stand versus the others.

As for hating all the politicians, you always have to go for the least worst option in politics. No one will ever match what you believe fully. As South Park put it "it's always between a giant douche and a turd sandwich. Nearly every election since the beginning of time has been between some douche and some turd. They're the only people who suck up enough to make it that far in politics. "

thanks for that

some questions are weird and confusing (double negatives!)

Economic Left/Right: 2.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.67

that places me close to Labour, hmmmm

Liam Byrne

Whatever about the motives behind bauderline's post, or his affiliation to any party, I think all of the questions and points are fairly spot-on.

Add in the reports of everyone in the Dail clapping O'Donoghue today, and it looks like it's going to have to be a complete de-lousing of Dail Eireann before there's anyone worth voting for.

Anyone know some good exterminators, and a day that ALL TDs will be present and - if possible- "accounted for" ?

Biggins

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Anyone know some good exterminators, and a day that ALL TDs will be present and - if possible- "accounted for" ?

We have enough exterminators in this country already and the best day would be budget day!

Liam Byrne

Biggins wrote: »

We have enough exterminators in this country already and the best day would be budget day!

True; unfortunately, the Greens are so environmentally friendly that they don't want us to use exterminators......they proved that on Saturday....

Dannyboy83

Well, if Labour give a guarantee that they'll balance the budget through a combination of cutting PS wages and social welfare, reform of ministerial expenses, etc., then they'll get my vote.

Otherwise the ONLY option for the future of this country is Fine Gael, regardless of how spineless or misled you think they are, they've an alternative to NAMA and have said they will cut the PS wages and reform the PS & Health Service akin to the Dutch Model where patients are a profit not a cost .

Dj Stiggie

bauderline wrote: »

Well I'll be dipped !!!

Smack Bang right on top of the green part dot... Excuse me whilst I go shoot myself....

I'll join you, I got the same

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

bauderline

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes, it would be VERY nice to see FG dump Enda Kenny (mid Atlantic) and Labour and stand on its own merits with a message similar to the above. It'll never happen though.

.. how the FG party haven't twigged that Enda Kenny is an awful bloody liability is completely beyond me.

turgon

Biggins wrote: »

So your saying that by discussion and a democratic process they can't come to a satisfactory conclusion?

Thats exactly what Im saying.

Do you ever read the Political Theory threads arguing between Libertarians and Communists? There have been thousands and thousands of words said by each side and yet neither has ever come remotely close to agreeing on any broad policy. Clearly no amount of talking will change this.

Biggins wrote: »

To use one rough example: all the waring factions up north have had different ideas about how to do things.

Yeah thats one single issue. Im sure I could sit done with aforementioned communists and come to agreement on many small issues. However running a country requires a little more than picking one single issue. You have to agree on everything.

There were 2 warring factions in the North, and it took 30 years. Imagine 84 factions, as in a majority of independents in the Dail. How long will governing the country take? Can we wait while 84 people squabble over what percentage to raise bus fares by?

Biggins wrote: »

Who will blindly stand up still and say many sides can't come at times together and reach the same principles!

Thats not what you suggesting at all. Your suggesting that many sides will come always together and always reach the same principles. That is not going to happen, like it or not.

lmimmfn

bauderline wrote: »

Yes, it would be VERY nice to see FG dump Enda Kenny (mid Atlantic) and Labour and stand on its own merits with a message similar to the above. It'll never happen though.

.. how the FG party haven't twigged that Enda Kenny is an awful bloody liability is completely beyond me.

Kenny is an absolute disaster, he's dull, lacks enthusiasm, just moans about everything FF does without even highlighting alternatives and has crap leadership skills.

FG needs someone with balls, someone to who'll rattle all the cages and not give a crap other than getting the country back in shape.

I like Eamon Gilmore from the labour party( he speaks a lot of sense, some crap too of course ), but i dont like labour in general so thats that fecked lol.

turgon

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And whats even more frustrating is that you know if a fiscally responsible Liberal party did emerge, FG would suddenly find said courage and hijack their policies and win over the electorate.

FG are a disgrace. They're lead opposition to probably the most unpopular government in the history of the State, and yet they are getting nowhere. If they had a bit of cop on, and strong leadership, there would be little doubt that a one party majority could be a realistic goal. At the moment they are wallowing in a state of complacency.

loobylou

I agree with and thanked the OP for articulating my own position. Subsequent posts refer to the OP's sig suggesting he has an "agenda". Probably not the right place to ask, but I cannot see sigs or avatars on my laptop but can on the work computer. Never bothered me before, just saw it as aesthetic, but can somebody tell me how to enable sigs/avatars?

Biggins

turgon wrote: »

Thats exactly what Im saying.

(1) Do you ever read the Political Theory threads arguing between Libertarians and Communists? There have been thousands and thousands of words said by each side and yet neither has ever come remotely close to agreeing on any broad policy. Clearly no amount of talking will change this.

(2) Yeah thats one single issue. Im sure I could sit done with aforementioned communists and come to agreement on many small issues. However running a country requires a little more than picking one single issue. You have to agree on everything.

(3) There were 2 warring factions in the North, and it took 30 years. Imagine 84 factions, as in a majority of independents in the Dail. How long will governing the country take? Can we wait while 84 people squabble over what percentage to raise bus fares by?

(4) Thats not what you suggesting at all. Your suggesting that many sides will come always together and always reach the same principles. That is not going to happen, like it or not.

(1) Thats only one example. For each example we could tit-for-tat throw at each other, one will always be the opposite of the other.
Clearly some work more successfully than others.

(2) ..or at least find a common ground where if compromise could be sought, it could be a start.

(3) You have a point but we have waited already since the antic's of Mr Haughty (if not before), to find a decent, honest government.
While I won't hold my breath for things to change - we have to do something to shake up the now established merry-go-round.

(4) Where did I say that exactly. In case you haven't noticed previously, I was talking about common ground. Nobody (person/organisation) agrees with with another 100% most times.
Never said "always" in both cases you mentioned. If I did, can you point me to exactly where?

Again, to repeat:

I'm not advocating that we should be voting independent at every election.
But until the main groups get the message, come and get their act together, a message has to be hammered home to them.

Until we do that, nothing will bloody change. We will stick in one fashion or other with the same type of characters/actions within the Dail.
Knowing that one way or another they will be always propped up by willing complacent sheep of this country, gives them a basic reassurance that their positions are comfortable to some extent ...and thus we continually get what we get!

What I'm also suggesting by saying we should support independents too, is for some voters, an easy method of wakening the tired established up from their safe complacently that they will always be elected one way or another.

bauderline

loobylou wrote: »

I agree with and thanked the OP for articulating my own position. Subsequent posts refer to the OP's sig suggesting he has an "agenda". Probably not the right place to ask, but I cannot see sigs or avatars on my laptop but can on the work computer. Never bothered me before, just saw it as aesthetic, but can somebody tell me how to enable sigs/avatars?

Look for "User CP" at the top of the page, after clicking on that you should see options to "Edit SIG" etc..

Also, my only agenda is to try to figure out if there is anyone worth voting for at the next election or moan about the general lack thereof....

P.

turgon

Biggins wrote: »

(4) Where did I say that exactly.

When you said that whole country could be run by 84 people with no idealogical or policy similarities, you were saying that every issue could always be worked out. This is because you were arguing that that system would work.

Sand

I'll be going for Fine Gael, if as DF has advised, they cast themselves as the party of fiscal responsibility. They do have a heritage of getting things done (When proto-Fianna Fail threw a hysterical strop over the treaty and sparked a civil war, proto-Fine Gael set up the state and got it running under very difficult circumstances...) and cleaning up the messes of Fianna Fail.

Currently FG are simply the least worst of a very bad lot. Its a question of them giving people a reason to vote for them - come out strongly, and effectively on expenses and Dail reform, senate reform, public sector and social welfare, against NAMA and waste - take ownership and offer voters an option they dont get with Labour or Fianna Fail. Labour is just more of the same, Fine Gael at least dont have the idealogical baggage preventing them from addressing the fiscal crisis by firstly ruling out paycuts or job losses in the public sector.

They could even try stealing Green floating voters by stealing the least daft, most effective of their enviromental policies. The Greens are dead in the next election, might as well start looting the corpse now.

bauderline

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Whatever about the motives behind bauderline's post, or his affiliation to any party, I think all of the questions and points are fairly spot-on.

Add in the reports of everyone in the Dail clapping O'Donoghue today, and it looks like it's going to have to be a complete de-lousing of Dail Eireann before there's anyone worth voting for.

Anyone know some good exterminators, and a day that ALL TDs will be present and - if possible- "accounted for" ?

Well Bev Coop Flynn stood up and clapped, but noone joined her standing ovation so maybe they have some sense of the public mood... let me repeat.... "some"..... not a lot...

Biggins

turgon wrote: »

When you said that whole country could be run by 84 people with no idealogical or policy similarities, you were saying that every issue could always be worked out. This is because you were arguing that that system would work.

True and I meant it.
If we are willing to put our personal points aside for the common good of all, things could be worked out.
yes, its idealistic and far off to say the least ...but I for one, am willing to try.
(never said anything about 84 people etc, you brought that stuff up!)

Anyway, we need to wake the Dail mob up - and if that means a sharp shock treatment, I'm all for it.

VOTE INDEPENDENT!

Sand

The independants are effectively the dregs that couldnt maintain the standards and accountability expected by a Fianna Fail backbencher....

Biggins

Sand wrote: »

The independants are effectively the dregs that couldnt maintain the standards and accountability expected by a Fianna Fail backbencher....

So thats a "no" then?

Atwork

bauderline wrote: »

Well I'll be dipped !!!

Smack Bang right on top of the green part dot... Excuse me whilst I go shoot myself....

Same as that, "Im Shocked" and a little sad.

bauderline

Atwork wrote: »

Same as that, "Im Shocked" and a little sad.

It would appear that a growing number of us are closet green supporters... strange... I don't think I have even given them a preference vote at any election..

turgon

Biggins wrote: »

If we are willing to put our personal points aside

I wasnt on about personal points. I was on about how people feel the country should run.

Biggins wrote: »

for the common good of all, things could be worked out.

The 'common good' is like the words equality and fairness: they mean completely different things to completely different people.

Biggins wrote: »

never said anything about 84 people etc, you brought that stuff up!

Majority of the Dail = 84

Biggins wrote: »

VOTE INDEPENDENT!

Are you seriously considering running? You mentioned it in another thread.

irish_bob

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Well, if Labour give a guarantee that they'll balance the budget through a combination of cutting PS wages and social welfare, reform of ministerial expenses, etc., then they'll get my vote.

Otherwise the ONLY option for the future of this country is Fine Gael, regardless of how spineless or misled you think they are, they've an alternative to NAMA and have said they will cut the PS wages and reform the PS & Health Service akin to the Dutch Model where patients are a profit not a cost .

i dont recall fine gael saying they would cut ps wages , i heard george lee say they shouldnt be any further cuts and i heard enda kenny say only those earning above 100k should face cuts

loobylou

bauderline wrote: »

Look for "User CP" at the top of the page, after clicking on that you should see options to "Edit SIG" etc..

Also, my only agenda is to try to figure out if there is anyone worth voting for at the next election or moan about the general lack thereof....

P.

Thanks for that.... and still agree with you.

irish_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

the day after the tory conference ended last week , the GUARDIAN had a front page headline of , CAMERON DECLARES WAR ON STATE , wouldnt it make us all feel warm inside to see the IRISH TIMES with a headline , KENNY DECLARES WAR ON STATE

seriously though , fine gael need to rediscover thier conservative soul they once had and pitch for the sleeping giant of middle income private sector voters who have no voice at partnership talks

bauderline

irish_bob wrote: »

i dont recall fine gael saying they would cut ps wages , i heard george lee say they shouldnt be any further cuts and i heard enda kenny say only those earning above 100k should face cuts

Proves a point really... no one has a notion exactly WHAT they stand for or what their policies actually are... I suspect the reason why we don't know what their policies are is because they don't know..