road rules

chiefwiggum

without starting a row...i thought cyclists were not allowed on motorways but they seem to ignore the m11 signs
also is it out of order to blow your horn at cyclists who ride two or three abreast on small roads and wont give you and oppurtunity to pass..i live in wicklow which seems to be a magnet for cyclists which i have no problem with but why do they not cycle in a single file on some of the most dangerous roads in the country..please you all ask for respect from motorists which is fair but please return the favour and dont treat us all as potential aggressors

dermot_sheehan

Cyclists are prohibited from cycling on motorways,

but it is perfectly legal and actually sometimes safer to cycle two abreast.

cycling two abreast ensures vehicles only pass you when the other side of the road is clear and they can see far enough for the maneuvere, same as passing a car.

If you cycle single file, they edge by you with one wheel slightly over the median line, even if it is a blind corner. If there is another oncoming vehicle slightly over the median, they vere in, crushing you.

Many motorists don't understand how dangerous it is to slightly overtake cyclists on blind corners, and personally if its a choice between my personal safety, and a motorists' convenience, I chose my safety.

Further more you should only use a horn if you think a cyclist is unaware of your presence, using it otherwise is discourteous and ignorant.

And please remember most cyclists are also motorists, and realise what its like to drive. We also know what its like on two wheels, something that many drivers in this country lack.

Lumen

chiefwiggum wrote: »

is it out of order to blow your horn at cyclists who ride two or three abreast on small roads and wont give you and oppurtunity to pass

Only use a horn to:

* warn other road users of on-coming danger, or
* make them aware of your presence for safety reasons when reasonably necessary.

chiefwiggum

Lumen wrote: »

Only use a horn to:

* warn other road users of on-coming danger, or
* make them aware of your presence for safety reasons when reasonably necessary.

and what do you do to make them notice....most know youre there without a doubt and refuse to budge

chiefwiggum

so gabhain would you have motorist travel behind two riders cycling abreast for 4 or 5 km on a road with no overtaking oppurtunity due to oncoming vehicles or bendy road?

dermot_sheehan

chiefwiggum wrote: »

and what do you do to make them notice....most know youre there without a doubt and refuse to budge

They have no obligation, and are perfectly within their rights and indeed it is much safer for them not to budge.

Wait for a safe place to overtake, indicate and move out. Same with overtaking a car.

Lumen

chiefwiggum wrote: »

and what do you do to make them notice....most know youre there without a doubt and refuse to budge

On the rare occasions that this happens I hold back at a safe distance and mutter dark curses at them.

dermot_sheehan

chiefwiggum wrote: »

so gabhain would you have motorist travel behind two riders cycling abreast for 4 or 5 km on a road with no overtaking oppurtunity due to oncoming vehicles or bendy road?

Yep, the motorist has to wait for a safe overtaking place.

Them's the rules.

It would be unusual for a motorist not to come across one given the amount of time required on the other side of the road to overtake a cyclist is quite minimal.

chiefwiggum

gabhain..come to wicklow my good man..on a sunny weekend in the summer .and a constant oncoming view of the tourishts!!! you'll see what im talking about

chiefwiggum

also alot of you guys seem to ride in groups of twenty to thirty which is like overtaking the lenght of an artic

dermot_sheehan

I have been in wicklow before,
both on a bike and in a car.

I can pass cyclists/tractors/other motorists quite easily.

Can't you?

chiefwiggum

m11/n11 doesnt count

uberwolf

I'm keeping a close eye on this thread

emtroche

chiefwiggum wrote: »

which is like overtaking the length of an artic

Or a tractor with a big trailer?

This might interest you http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=845

niceonetom

Oh, how I wish I could just point you towards the search option.

chiefwiggum wrote: »

also alot of you guys seem to ride in groups of twenty to thirty which is like overtaking the lenght of an artic

But if they go single file they'd be twice as long.

Ah, but then, I hear you think, I wouldn't have to go all the way across the white line to overtake...

...And that's why we go two abreast. Skimming is bad.

chiefwiggum

uberwolf wrote: »

I'm keeping a close eye on this thread

why???????? its a discussion not an argument..no hostility from me and i dont think i sense any from the other posters

DirkVoodoo

I'm not here to start a row but....

No, cyclists can not use motorways. If you are upset by huge groups of cyclists hogging the roads, maybe try using the motorway some more, generally cyclists tend to stick to smaller back roads.

In all my time cycling on boards, I can't remember us holding up a single car for more than a minute or two. I honestly don't know what you do or where you are driving to, but I can only infer from your impatience that you are either (a) a third world dictator or (b) a member of the emergency services. We all get held up on the roads by cyclists, tractors, camper vans, tourists in rental cars, etc.

I don't know what you expect to happen with your post. Do we all stop cycling, throw our bikes away and sit inside in case we hold you up for a few minutes because you can't overtake on "dangerous roads".

I don't apologize for being narky either, you clearly came on here not to hear opinions but to let everyone know "get the feck off the road, I'm in a hurry".

chiefwiggum

chiefwiggum wrote: »

why???????? its a discussion not an argument..no hostility from me and i dont think i sense any from the other posters

Don't want to speak for uberwolf but these type of discussions usually end up with lots of trolls coming to this forum.

chiefwiggum

yeah my cunning plan worked didnt it dirk! i am a very careful driver and respect cyclists but its attitudes like yours that make motorists say feck all cyclists and i'll just mill by them with no regard for their safety cop on will ya!! and mods feel free to close this cause i know where its going ..should have trusted my instincts

chiefwiggum

donal im not looking to start a row its a subject i have always wanted to ask riders but dont know any

daymobrew

chiefwiggum wrote: »

why???????? its a discussion not an argument..no hostility from me and i dont think i sense any from the other posters

A thread on this subject always starts as a discussion but often descends into an unproductive shouting match.

Back on topic, the Cycling Wiki has a short description answering Why do cyclists take up the road?.

chiefwiggum wrote: »

i live in wicklow which seems to be a magnet for cyclists

Wicklow is attractive for a number of reasons e.g. relative quietness of the roads, the scenery and the climbs (yes, we are gluttons for punishment).

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I don't apologize for being narky either, you clearly came on here not to hear opinions but to let everyone know "get the feck off the road, I'm in a hurry".

Ah, this is a bit unfair - chiefwiggum hasn't reacted in a manner to deserve this comment. The replies so far have been calmly explaining the reasons for the behaviour that chiefwiggum observes.

niceonetom

chiefwiggum wrote: »

yeah my cunning plan worked didnt it dirk! i am a very careful driver and respect cyclists but its attitudes like yours that make motorists say feck all cyclists and i'll just mill by them with no regard for their safety cop on will ya!! and mods feel free to close this cause i know where its going ..should have trusted my instincts

This is not looking for a row?

Your question has been answered anyway. Any other business?

chiefwiggum

in fairness bar kerry wicklow is probably the best place to ride with the scenery and hill climbs..thsnk you daymobrew.im calm and dont think im threating or trying to imply anything..if these things were dicussed calmly surely there would be a greater understanding on both sides

DirkVoodoo

Sorry daymobrew, but the first 2 replies answered his questions, and that wasn't enough?

Yes, we can all throw out more and more hypothetical situations to try and make a case, it doesn't change the law. 2 cyclists, 50 cyclists, it makes no difference. If you can't overtake safely then you can't overtake.

i am a very careful driver and respect cyclists

And this speaks for itself.

chiefwiggum

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Sorry daymobrew, but the first 2 replies answered his questions, and that wasn't enough?

Yes, we can all throw out more and more hypothetical situations to try and make a case, it doesn't change the law. 2 cyclists, 50 cyclists, it makes no difference. If you can't overtake safely then you can't overtake.



And this speaks for itself.

so case closed cos you said so?

biomed32

chiefwiggum wrote: »

without starting a row...i thought cyclists were not allowed on motorways but they seem to ignore the m11 signs
also is it out of order to blow your horn at cyclists who ride two or three abreast on small roads and wont give you and oppurtunity to pass..i live in wicklow which seems to be a magnet for cyclists which i have no problem with but why do they not cycle in a single file on some of the most dangerous roads in the country..please you all ask for respect from motorists which is fair but please return the favour and dont treat us all as potential aggressors

by actually posting your comment on the page your basically complaining about the attitudes of cyclists on the roads in general, so be prepared for a bit of stick over it. also dirkvoodoo has made all valid points, in general I feel we are back to the whole argument here of attitudes of moterists towards cyclists all over again and thats just my opinion. I generally cycle alone and leave some space between the side of the road to generally force moterists to overtake me and not squash me, and the roads I take are usually all the back roads and country roads. so if that annoys you im very sorry but I as dirk said, rate my safety over holding up a driver for a few minutes or so.

DirkVoodoo

I don't recall saying case closed.

You are a very careful driver yet struggle with the rules of the road, you respect cyclists yet become frustrated when encountering groups on windy roads?

I know you are being calm, but you are also being extremely inflexible. You have been provided with clear and detailed answers.

uberwolf

chiefwiggum wrote: »

so gabhain would you have motorist travel behind two riders cycling abreast for 4 or 5 km on a road with no overtaking oppurtunity due to oncoming vehicles or bendy road?

if you can't get around 2 safely, then I can conceive fairly few circumstances where it would have been safe to get around the 2 single file.

Given the cars capacity for acceleration, and relatively low speed of the cyclists whether they are one or two should not block given a safe opportunity. AND given that opportunity I would like to think most cyclists would revert to single file to assist.

Very few cyclists enjoy the sensation of a car right up behind them, gunning to pass, and will be keen to get on with their spin by allowing a car past them - but given they've been overtaken by more motorists than you have overtaken groups of cyclists, they are more experienced with the scenario and better able to assess the situation to allow it pass without incident or undue delay.

ednwireland

chiefwiggum wrote: »

in fairness bar kerry wicklow is probably the best place to ride with the scenery and hill climbs..

soooooooooooo wrong, donegal, hardly see a car, scenery, hill climbs no prob

Esroh

ednwireland wrote: »

soooooooooooo wrong, donegal, hardly see a car, scenery, hill climbs no prob

You can add Galway and Mayo to that:D

Hermy

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

2 cyclists, 50 cyclists, it makes no difference

If I'm not mistaken Dirk, convoys are illegal because they impede traffic. If this is so would there be an onus on large groups [say 50+] of cyclists to break up into smaller groups?

CheGuedara

Hermy wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken Dirk, convoys are illegal because they impede traffic. If this is so would there be an onus on large groups [say 50+] of cyclists to break up into smaller groups?

50+ cyclists would rarely be seen outside of a sportive/race/other event and would have usually notified the the local Gardai in advance of the event as part of due diligence in organising and possibly even have on the day Garda support to keep an eye on things (both cyclists and motorists) though

Hermy

CheGuedara wrote: »

50+ cyclists would rarely be seen outside of a sportive/race/other event and would have usually notified the the local Gardai in advance of the event as part of due diligence in organising and possibly even have on the day Garda support to keep an eye on things (both cyclists and motorists) though

True enough Che. Maybe 50+ is a bit fanciful.:o

petethedrummer

Chiefwiggum, go out and do a bit of cycling and you might see it from a cyclist's point of view.

cdaly_

Even so, a group of 15 or more drafting wouldn't be that uncommon and would certainly make for some difficulty passing. Mind you, you might expect a reasonable speed from such a group.

@Chiefwiggum, the main reason for groups of cyclists is for 'drafting'. This is where the group of cyclists get into the slipstream of the leading cyclist and therefore expend less effort. The lead cyclist is putting in extra effort against the wind but spends only a short time as the lead. S/he then drops back into the group and somebody else takes the lead. In a group of 10 cyclists, each only has to lead 10% of the time so the group ends up expending less effort as a whole. Unfortunately, such a group can make overtaking a bit harder for the following motorist but I bet it's easier than trying to overtake the ubiquitous camper van...

DirkVoodoo

Hermy wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken Dirk, convoys are illegal because they impede traffic. If this is so would there be an onus on large groups [say 50+] of cyclists to break up into smaller groups?

Sorry, I was echoing wiggums remark about large groups. The biggest group I have been in outside of a sportif is maybe 15-20 riders. Boards spins normally become quite spread out anyway, but size never seems to be an issue for reckless motorists, they will overtake regardless. I'm not saying Wiggum is reckless, I can't comment on his driving, but any group I am in normally make an effort to let cars pass by switching to single file where possible and waving them through. Indeed we got a few "hazard light thank yous" on saturday for doing so. Winding roads are not the cyclists fault and to expect them to pull in for every passing motorist would turn the saturday cycle into a joke.

tunney

chiefwiggum wrote: »

so gabhain would you have motorist travel behind two riders cycling abreast for 4 or 5 km on a road with no overtaking oppurtunity due to oncoming vehicles or bendy road?

Tractors - what about 30kph?
Old dears - what about 30-35kph?

Pack of cyclist, halfway decent, 35+kph? Would you be as rude and aggresive to your granny? Or Farmer John?

seamus

Having driven into various parts of wicklow on a number of sunny days this year and driven the N81 uncountable times over the last 10 years, I can safely say that it's rare (like once a year) that you'll meet more than 3 or 4 riders in a group. There are sometimes multiple groups of riders spread out, but you just leapfrog them as necessary.

Saying that you were unable to overtake for 4 or 5 kilometres, as others point out, really answers the question. If you were unable to overtake two cyclists for a number of kilometres then it would have been unsafe to overtake one cyclist for that distance.

One thing which I don't think was answered was about cycling 3 abreast. This too is legal, provided that the rider on the outside is overtaking the other two.

TinyExplosions

uberwolf wrote: »

Given the cars capacity for acceleration, and relatively low speed of the cyclists whether they are one or two should not block given a safe opportunity. AND given that opportunity I would like to think most cyclists would revert to single file to assist.

You haven't seen some of the boardsies here motoring along -low speed it ain't.

To throw my hat into the ring, what is it with this stupid motorists creeping down roads like Stocking Lane and Edmonston Road -they never move over when I come behind them on my bike. Should I be stuck behind them for 2 or 3 km because they're to ignorant to pull over and make my life easier? I mean, they're only going about 35, and I'm going at least 50, so doesn't that make me better than them?

Idleater

cdaly_ wrote: »

@Chiefwiggum, the main reason for groups of cyclists is for 'drafting'.

Drafting could be likened to the way that motorists tend to follow closely to the vehicle in front of them on the roads (even multi lane carriageways), while not allowing sufficient space for other road users (I'm thinking motorcyclists at least) to overtake should they wish to do so safely.

Instead us poor motorcyclists are "forced" to overtake "dangerously" into whatever gaps exist.

I am in no way inferring that the Chief drives like this, merely pointing out that what one perceives as driving them mad (pardon the pun) could just as easily be done by that segment of road users to others.

tunney

cdaly_ wrote: »

Even so, a group of 15 or more drafting wouldn't be that uncommon and would certainly make for some difficulty passing. Mind you, you might expect a reasonable speed from such a group.

@Chiefwiggum, the main reason for groups of cyclists is for 'drafting'. This is

I would say that this is more of a side effect rather than choice. If anything the drafting is a bad thing as it means you're not working.

Primary reasons for groups are safety and being social.

TinyExplosions

tunney wrote: »

Primary reasons for groups are safety and being social.

Which is why tunney rides alone....

niceonetom

tunney wrote: »

Primary reasons for groups are safety and being social.

It is also a lot closer to what most riders are training for. Road racing is not about working as hard as possible - if anything it's about doing as little as possible until the time is right. Even if training for a sportive it's very sensible to get used to riding tempo at close quarters to other riders and learning how to take your turn in the wind without upsetting the pace of the group. It also provides an opportunity to attack other riders or try to reel in escapees. Responding to someone else suddenly upping the pace could be very difficult if you've been training on your own at a self determined level of effort for too long.

If you're training for solo riding (ie. TT/Tri) well other people breaking the air for you would be contrary to your goals I suppose. Plus there's the social aspect which I know most triathletes struggle with.

tunney

niceonetom wrote: »

It is also a lot closer to what most riders are training for. Road racing is not about working as hard as possible - if anything it's about doing as little as possible until the time is right. Even if training for a sportive it's very sensible to get used to riding tempo at close quarters to other riders and learning how to take your turn in the wind without upsetting the pace of the group. It also provides an opportunity to attack other riders or try to reel in escapees. Responding to someone else suddenly upping the pace could be very difficult if you've been training on your own at a self determined level of effort for too long.

If you're training for solo riding (ie. TT/Tri) well other people breaking the air for you would be contrary to your goals I suppose. Plus there's the social aspect which I know most triathletes struggle with.

Maybe its just different attitudes but I find that once you go over 6 people in a group its always more of a recovery ride, that or a very very hard ride with everyone attacking off the front.

4-6 I think is the ideal number, enough to talk to, enough to shelter if you have had enough, but not too many to get some work if you want it.

niceonetom

tunney wrote: »

Maybe its just different attitudes but I find that once you go over 6 people in a group its always more of a recovery ride, that or a very very hard ride with everyone attacking off the front.

4-6 I think is the ideal number, enough to talk to, enough to shelter if you have had enough, but not too many to get some work if you want it.

Yeah, i get you. Getting evenly matched riders is usually a matter of luck, and self-selection. On a good sportive I've found that the pace will incrementally rise and the group at the front get correspondingly smaller. I'm talking about the tour of Louth and the tour of Kildare here, where the last 30 ro 40 k were very, very racy. If you weren't up front when the splits happened you were very unlikely to get back on. The final group for the TOL was about 20 strong, with everyone taking their turn though some lasting longer on the front than others, and people dropping off the back as they burned out. Any fewer than that and the group would have been slower, and the pace was hot enough and the rotation fast enough that 15 riders only gave each just enough time to recover before going again. It was a workout I just don't think is really achievable solo, and an average pace that I found nearly unbelievable. I bloody loved it, in case that wasn't clear...

For me, solo riding is more likely to slip to recovery pace, but that's probably the difference between us.

Hermy

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Sorry, I was echoing wiggums remark about large groups. The biggest group I have been in outside of a sportif is maybe 15-20 riders. Boards spins normally become quite spread out anyway, but size never seems to be an issue for reckless motorists, they will overtake regardless. I'm not saying Wiggum is reckless, I can't comment on his driving, but any group I am in normally make an effort to let cars pass by switching to single file where possible and waving them through. Indeed we got a few "hazard light thank yous" on saturday for doing so. Winding roads are not the cyclists fault and to expect them to pull in for every passing motorist would turn the saturday cycle into a joke.

Wasn't having a go at you Dirk - just been on my mind to ask what's the concensus about large groups but as Che points out these would probably be marshalled.
That's good that you get the odd acknowledgement from motorists you wave through - there's still a few good drivers out there.
Regarding size not being an issue for the reckless motorist, too fecking true. I've had a few near misses recently which bore an uncanny resemblance to incidents and accidents some of ye have described here on Boards. The only difference being that I'm driving a big blue taxi. So what hope for the cyclist against these lunatics!

petethedrummer

niceonetom wrote: »

The final group for the TOL was about 20 strong, with everyone taking their turn

Not everyone! I didn't/couldn't.

niceonetom wrote: »

It was a workout I just don't think is really achievable solo, and an average pace that I found nearly unbelievable.

There is no way I could have inflicted that sort of pain on myself solo.

biomed32

guys, i dont believe this guy is listening anymore, no replies for a while???

chiefwiggum

tunney wrote: »

Tractors - what about 30kph?
Old dears - what about 30-35kph?

Pack of cyclist, halfway decent, 35+kph? Would you be as rude and aggresive to your granny? Or Farmer John?

whos being rude or aggressive? not me

chiefwiggum

biomed32 wrote: »

guys, i dont believe this guy is listening anymore, no replies for a while???

im here reading with interest and while all points are been taken on board and some of the explanations excellent, SOME posters points are overly aggressive,the usual us against the motorist thing is coming into play and its cyclists like these that your sport could do without and b4 anyone says it yes there are more ejits driving than cycling, im actually very keen to take up the whole cycling thing,even more so after this lively debate.

petethedrummer

chiefwiggum wrote: »

the usual us against the motorist thing is coming into play

I would say that most people who post here are also motorists.

Anyways, you should take up cycling. Its a very fast growing sport and mode of commuting.