It would only take 4 weeks for the country to turn itself around!

TheInquisitor

Day one - Cut civil service pay by 30-40%. Below private sector levels as their job guarantees must be taken into account. The people that take risks in the private sector should be rewarded for that risk not the public service

Day one- 1 hour later. All public service start strike . Total public service 355,000 in ireland. Lets say half strike.

During the month:
Cut minimum wage to below UK rate- Lets say E6 or so.
Put a sliding structure on the dole. For first 3 months full dole, next 3 months 75% dole and after 6 months 50% dole
Lower tax bands to 20 and 40 % respectively
Lower VAT rate to 15%
Lower Corporation tax to 11.5% working towards 10%. Encourage businesses to set up and create jobs
Bring in univeristy fees or at least half fees.

Day 31- It would only take one month before the unions are bankrupted. Thats when we can get some realism into the public service and try to rebuild the country that the public service have milked for years.

RealityCheck

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Day one - Cut civil service pay by 30-40%. Below private sector levels as their job guarantees must be taken into account. The people that take risks in the private sector should be rewarded for that risk not the public service

Day one- 1 hour later. All public service start strike . Total public service 355,000 in ireland. Lets say half strike.

During the month:
Cut minimum wage to below UK rate- Lets say E6 or so.
Put a sliding structure on the dole. For first 3 months full dole, next 3 months 75% dole and after 6 months 50% dole
Lower tax bands to 20 and 40 % respectively
Lower VAT rate to 15%
Lower Corporation tax to 11.5% working towards 10%. Encourage businesses to set up and create jobs
Bring in univeristy fees or at least half fees.

Day 31- It would only take one month before the unions are bankrupted. Thats when we can get some realism into the public service and try to rebuild the country that the public service have milked for years.

The country would implode into a depression .

However I agree on some points. Minimum wage, VAT, Corporation Tax should be lowered. Public sector pay should be reduced by maybe 10% for now and it should be benchmarked downwards over time.

But, if you were to cut wages too much, people will have no disposable income and the economy sinks into a bigger hole, especially if done too quickly like above.

alfranken

Did it work in the last country you ran?

Sand

However I agree on some points. Minimum wage, VAT, Corporation Tax should be lowered.

I'm not sure I agree on the minimum wage - While cutting it might be helpful, it would be more helpful to ensure the gap between social welfare and the minimum wage widens. So long as the minimum wage offers a clear rise in living standards over the social welfare benefits, then work will be quite attractive. These steps would need to be taken carefully however - right now, quite simply there arent too many jobs available, and little investment to generate new ones from the private sector as the private sector waits to see what sort of tax slavery they will be put under and how seriously the government is going to tackle the costs of the public sector and social welfare.

Other than that, yeah I agree with the OP - breaking the unions would do a great service for Irelands future. I think the institutional rot is appparent even to union members themselves - theres questions being asked about the unions leadership, and I think if a union strike was called...its quite possible it would be poorly observed.

old boy

considering the unions have approx 10 million of a war chest, it will take more than a month to break them

Permabear

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NewDubliner

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Day one- 1 hour later. All public service start strike . Total public service 355,000 in ireland. Lets say half strike.

Electricity stops, no running water or sewarage, no piped gas, airport closes due to no ATC, trains and buses stop, tax collection stops, social welfare and pensions stop, government sends in the army....no...wait....hang on...:rolleyes:

peasant

just tell me when ...so I can go on a long (deserved) holiday and come back when it's over

pearcider

In reality the strike will be focused on select elements of the public service so the warchest can last longer. For example, if just Social Welfare and Revenue (I think they make up a big chunk of the Civil Service) go on all out strike, the government will fall before the unions do.

greendom

pearcider wrote: »

In reality the strike will be focused on select elements of the public service so the warchest can last longer. For example, if just Social Welfare and Revenue (I think they make up a big chunk of the Civil Service) go on all out strike, the government will fall before the unions do.

A female prime minister from not so far away went out with the intention of breaking a union 25 or so years ago. She managed it, but it took a hell of a lot longer than a month, and that was with the whole pack of cards stacked in her favour.

It may suit your ideology, but it is no way to run a country

AlekSmart

It would be more helpful to ensure the gap between social welfare and the minimum wage widens. So long as the minimum wage offers a clear rise in living standards over the social welfare benefits, then work will be quite attractive.

Oh dear.....if this sort of stuff starts to gain any credence then this Government may yet fall.......We Must protect the vulnerable and the poor amongst us,at all costs even if by doing so we become poor and vulnerable ourselves....at least that`s what the GP/FF aliance appear to believe... +1 Sand,+1

sceptre

old boy wrote: »

considering the unions have approx 10 million of a war chest, it will take more than a month to break them

That'd be 50 million from the recent newspaper reports.

Lockstep

Have you researched the exchequer revenue from the taxes you plan to cut or is it just a case of tax cuts=good?


IIRC, around 5% of the workforce is on the minimum wage so it's hardly going to make much difference, plus our cost of living would have to be equal to the UK for it to be effective.

lmimmfn

Sand wrote: »

I'm not sure I agree on the minimum wage - While cutting it might be helpful, it would be more helpful to ensure the gap between social welfare and the minimum wage widens.

Exactly, you hit the nail on the head, social welfare in this state is insane compared to other EU states. Reduce welfare to 4 euro per hour and minimum wage to 6 or 6.50euro per hour and we've got a foundation for a more competitive economy worthy of foreign investment for lower skilled work.

Lockstep

Are we ever going to really compete for low skilled work though?

And even if we could, is that kind of investment we should be focussing on?

Permabear

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lmimmfn

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Are we ever going to really compete for low skilled work though?

And even if we could, is that kind of investment we should be focussing on?

yes it is entirely, any job is still a job, unless every worker in the economy has a diploma/degree or better we should rethink our competitive strategy.

We only lost the edge due to crazy inflation fuelled by the housing market and cheap credit( with higher wage expections ). With dole at 5+ euro an hour, its not even worth working for less that 9 euro an euro meaning a yearly take home pay of 19,000Euro, thats the low skilled/unskilled labout market and that is an entirely reasonable wage/salary

Lockstep

Indeed but as a libertarian, would you not agree it comes down to supply and demand as regards courses?

Lockstep

lmimmfn wrote: »

yes it is entirely, any job is still a job, unless every worker in the economy has a diploma/degree or better we should rethink our competitive strategy.

We only lost the edge due to crazy inflation fuelled by the housing market and cheap credit( with higher wage expections ). With dole at 5+ euro an hour, its not even worth working for less that 9 euro an euro meaning a yearly take home pay of 19,000Euro, thats the low skilled/unskilled labout market and that is an entirely reasonable wage/salary

Great but if we're going for that level of work can we compete at all with the far East?
We're never going to be able to compete at that level, we should be focussing higher up the scale.

Permabear

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lmimmfn

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Great but if we're going for that level of work can we compete at all with the far East?
We're never going to be able to compete at that level, we should be focussing higher up the scale.

We will never ever compete with the far east, however even at a higher cost we can still be competitive in the same way as there are still factories all over europe and we dont get absolutely everything from the far east. There are competitive advantages to having manufacturing locally in europe.

To focus higher up the scale means higher minimum wage and a high percentage of and educated population with 3 level qualifications. We had this, but were going to lose it fast for the simple fact that third level education will not be free soon, not only that we dont have the foreign investment to keep the brains here. Would you convince any recently qualified student to commit to ireland for the foreseeable future?

Im sure im not the only one thinking of jumping country soon.

Lockstep

Agreed but surely this can boil down to market forces at work? Students will aim for jobs with a high degree of economic security (law, medecine, irrc, the IRish Times mentioned when the results came out that science subjects had shot up as they were seen as more economically sound)

In NUIG, Arts was on 345 in 2008, Civil law 480, Commerce 365, BIomedical science 440, civil engineering 425, history 345, medecine 565 etc.

Lockstep

lmimmfn wrote: »

We will never ever compete with the far east, however even at a higher cost we can still be competitive in the same way as there are still factories all over europe and we dont get absolutely everything from the far east. There are competitive advantages to having manufacturing locally in europe.

To focus higher up the scale means higher minimum wage and a high percentage of and educated population with 3 level qualifications. We had this, but were going to lose it fast for the simple fact that third level education will not be free soon, not only that we dont have the foreign investment to keep the brains here. Would you convince any recently qualified student to commit to ireland for the foreseeable future?

Im sure im not the only one thinking of jumping country soon.

Yes but factories and manafacturing don't pay minimum wage.
All the minimum wage work I've done has been things like retail, barwork, hotels etc. And these are hardly things that attract foreign investment.

You seem to be confusing industrial wage with minimum wage.

ghost_ie

NewDubliner wrote: »

Electricity stops, no running water or sewarage, no piped gas, airport closes due to no ATC, trains and buses stop, tax collection stops, social welfare and pensions stop, government sends in the army....no...wait....hang on...:rolleyes:

Nurses stop work, physiotherapists, radiologists, hospital porters walk out, gardai get another dose of blue flu, no firemen or ambulance drivers to answer emergency calls...

book smarts

donegalfella wrote: »

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We could encourage people to teach themselves. Computer scientists practically do anyway, look at Bill Gates for example, dropped out of Harvard. University notes and books are freely available online now, the days of withholding information are gone. MIT's course notes are all there for whoever can handle them. There are many small companies that could be started by someone without formal education- internet companies for example. You can't train innovation or enterprise anyway.

thebaldsoprano

donegalfella wrote: »

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Tax breaks for both engineering/tech companies and their employees might go some ways towards fixing this. If engineering/tech was incentivised to the same extent as property speculation over the last few years I suspect that the economy would be in much better shape.

Sand

@Kickoutthejams

Indeed but as a libertarian, would you not agree it comes down to supply and demand as regards courses?

Supply and demand is responsive to price - course demands arent set by prices when 3rd level education is free. Id say if you were to leave 3rd level fees paid for by the state where they are economically useful and undersupplied ( the sciences) whereas reintroduce for courses which are....not...then youd see supply and demand of the courses shift as students consider if they want to truly invest in the true cost of a degree like philosophy which might be ....nice...but not particularly practically useful.

@Ghost.ie

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewDubliner
Electricity stops, no running water or sewarage, no piped gas, airport closes due to no ATC, trains and buses stop, tax collection stops, social welfare and pensions stop, government sends in the army....no...wait....hang on...

Nurses stop work, physiotherapists, radiologists, hospital porters walk out, gardai get another dose of blue flu, no firemen or ambulance drivers to answer emergency calls...

Government sacks public service workers who refuse reasonable terms, hires new ones, runs services on skeleton staff where possible, rallies public against a selfish, parasitic unions - crushes Silver Circle of public sector workers, restablishes reality and sanity in public sector. I really do hope the unions play hardball - They will be broken when they do, and Ireland needs to break them for the good of society.

bauderline

Agreed, what is needed is a viable strategy to keep the essentials of the country functioning and then go head to head with the unions until they are crushed. I am prepared to take whatever misery this entails for whatever length of time is required. Make no mistake this country will remain broken until the unions are broken...

Permabear

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Lockstep

Sand wrote: »

@Kickoutthejams
Supply and demand is responsive to price - course demands arent set by prices when 3rd level education is free. Id say if you were to leave 3rd level fees paid for by the state where they are economically useful and undersupplied ( the sciences) whereas reintroduce for courses which are....not...then youd see supply and demand of the courses shift as students consider if they want to truly invest in the true cost of a degree like philosophy which might be ....nice...but not particularly practically useful.

Indeed but the courses points rise and fall based on their popularity; undemoninated science in NUIG is low whereas medicine is extremely high because of how many people seek to do them.

Would also seem a bit strange to enact the above as a degree in science is no especial guarantee of employment (anecdotal I know but I know way too many people with a science degree and who are back doing an Arts degree), whereas humanities degrees can come in useful if you know what you want to do with them; analytical skills in history come in handy in a range of subjects, as I'm finding in law.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I can see merit in the above; you are advocating a scholarship system?

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

Electricity stops, no running water or sewarage, no piped gas, airport closes due to no ATC, trains and buses stop, tax collection stops, social welfare and pensions stop, government sends in the army....no...wait....hang on...:rolleyes:

Proof if it were needed that the union stranglehold on our essential services needs breaking, eh?!

Permabear

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97i9y3941

i have a feeling in the december budget that the taxpayer will get taxed again to make up for the pay of public servants,the policticans will put on crocodile tears when saying they will take another 10 percent paycut*which in honesty means fu#k all to their pay packages*,diesel will probably get an slight increase since its bit cheaper than petrol at the mo,theres talks of cutting child benefit,which makes me think they are trying to say is,well we cant afford to hire people to means test it so we do it this way....

jimmmy

Sand wrote: »

Supply and demand is responsive to price - course demands arent set by prices when 3rd level education is free. Id say if you were to leave 3rd level fees paid for by the state where they are economically useful and undersupplied ( the sciences) whereas reintroduce for courses which are....not...then youd see supply and demand of the courses shift as students consider if they want to truly invest in the true cost of a degree like philosophy which might be ....nice...but not particularly practically useful.


Government sacks public service workers who refuse reasonable terms, hires new ones, runs services on skeleton staff where possible, rallies public against a selfish, parasitic unions - crushes Silver Circle of public sector workers, restablishes reality and sanity in public sector. I really do hope the unions play hardball - They will be broken when they do, and Ireland needs to break them for the good of society.

Excellent post. For the sake of our children + grandchildren, the sooner it happens the better.

As one of the immigrants in the Irish public sector wrote in the paper last weekend " I'm not sure the people you hear whinging on TV and radio are strongly representative of the public service, but if they really feel life in Ireland is so terrible, they are free to leave".

97i9y3941

i support what sand said,the unions have the country by the balls,we need someone to stand up against this windfall of money the goverment seems to have to pay them...

lmimmfn

kinda off topic but relevent in the sense of strike action, why dont we have a contingency plan in this state that the Army can take over for most Public Service unionised jobs? e.g. train driving/bus driving/ambulance & paramedics etc. Its obvious they couldnt take care of everything but its a surefire thing that the unions will be trying to hold to country to ransom over the next few years.

97i9y3941

havent back in the 60-70s didnt it?,when the binmen/bus drivers went on strike,the army where called in?

lmimmfn

Fred83 wrote: »

havent back in the 60-70s didnt it?,when the binmen/bus drivers went on strike,the army where called in?

i dunno mate, too far back for me , but im surprised there is no current contingency plan for training( without incurring wage increases and all that nonsense for the armed forces ).

Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

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I can see the logic but would be much more favourable to a system based on results within the college; getting points in the leaving cert is very different to results within college itself, and the prevalence of grinds etc distorts the LC somewhat.

Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Would disagree with this though; the students who can afford to that seem to be the ones who's parents are paying for their education, as they don't need to work and have money to burn on booze so I am sceptical that fees would change this.

lmimmfn

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Would disagree with this though; the students who can afford to that seem to be the ones who's parents are paying for their education, as they don't need to work and have money to burn on booze so I am sceptical that fees would change this.

agree totally, i got my fees paid and a grant but had to work on building sites in summertime in scotland to pay for my degree.
People cant paint everyone with the same brush.

Fees should be means tested however there should be tax breaks for courses in which the industry needs employees, i.e. some Arts courses should have no breaks as a lot of arts courses provide 0 possibility of employment other than continuing with an academic career( in which case money could be refunded ).

ScouseMouse

greendom wrote: »

A female prime minister from not so far away went out with the intention of breaking a union 25 or so years ago. She managed it, but it took a hell of a lot longer than a month, and that was with the whole pack of cards stacked in her favour.

It may suit your ideology, but it is no way to run a country

Bring the old boot out out retirement and get the job done. Give her a millon quid - we will still save. This country is bollixed anyway. Serious action must be taken.

Start with the unions and the civil service.

dyl10

donegalfella wrote: »

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For that to be a fair system you'd either have to eliminate private/grind schools or weight a students points, based on the school he/she attended.

Permabear

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Permabear

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book smarts

Problems with sciences and technical subjects in schools as I see it:

A dumbed down curriculum with grade inflation used as a political tool so they can claim students are doing better when they are actually doing worse.

Huge bureaucracy, bullsh1t paper trails and inefficiency by teachers.

Litigation means teachers can't discipline as much anymore and kids know this, so run riot. Some teachers spend most of their time trying to keep order.

Not enough streaming so the stupid kids hold back the smart ones.

BS pop culture peer pressure on kids to be Pop Idol contestants or "gangstas" or whatever, neglect studies and just party.

Not enough respect given to the sciences and engineering.

No culture of independent scientific learning encouraged- The overrated "Young Scientist" competition is a poor effort compared
to schools in the US which nearly all have science fairs.

Sand

@Kickouthejams

Would also seem a bit strange to enact the above as a degree in science is no especial guarantee of employment (anecdotal I know but I know way too many people with a science degree and who are back doing an Arts degree), whereas humanities degrees can come in useful if you know what you want to do with them; analytical skills in history come in handy in a range of subjects, as I'm finding in law.

I dont entirely disagree - the government funding some courses while not funding others is similar to some degree to the dubious practise of "picking winners" supported by state protectionism.

I do feel however, the government cant simply write a blank cheque without doing some cost benefit analysis on each course. I want clever, capable people from all backgrounds to have access to pursue the development of their own skills and qualifications as best as they are able - but that doesnt mean Im going to fund every single course under the sun, especially subjects, such as the arts, which tend to be their own reward - I have an interest in classical history, especially the political history of the era, but its an interest I pursue at my own expense and in my own interest.

On the other hand, as others have noted, the government is attempting to build an economy focused on technology and R&D...mostly its hype right now, but if its ever to become reality then we need to incentivise our bright and capable students, from all backgrounds, to move into fields employers in those areas are looking for. Yes, arts might be one of those areas, but lets start from that beginning and see whats needed to get this so called SMART econonomy working.

As you noted, the usual "waster" student stereotype is often funded by mummy and daddy, but at least mummy and daddy will be paying the true cost of their little darlings 3 or 4 years off freeing up public resources for others. Other courses wont be outlawed, or barred, just those who wish to pursue them will have to do so at their own cost.

The education system as a whole needs an overhaul: basic civics ( not just theory, but practise in getting people registered, getting them familiar with parties and their local candidates) and basic philosophy (by which I mean a introduction to the framework of reaching a view without reference to the opinions of others, as opposed to a review of the learned opinions of philosophers which kinda defeats the purpose to my eyes) need to be mandatory from secondary on. It'll bring about better, more informed citizens - we desperately need to get people with a sense of ownership over their country. We dont have that today.

DFs right - its not a question of simply giving more money. Weve been doing that for a decade now, and results have at best been unremarkable, and at worst actually getting worse. We need to just look at education ( and indeed every aspect of the public governance in this country from the very top, to the very bottom), decide what our objectives are and build the structures to achieve them.

97i9y3941

the college grant system is aload of bollocks,since your only accessed on your income,those who have rich daddys who run companys etc can fiddle with the books so their little johnny can get it and piss it away whilst the working class who actually fund the system are told to **** off and cheat the system if you want it,then they always wonder how those who are from poorer backgrounds never make it there..

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

Proof if it were needed that the union stranglehold on our essential services needs breaking, eh?!

And exchange it for a privitised stranglehold on essential services?

lmimmfn

Fred83 wrote: »

the college grant system is aload of bollocks,since your only accessed on your income,those who have rich daddys who run companys etc can fiddle with the books so their little johnny can get it and piss it away whilst the working class who actually fund the system are told to **** off and cheat the system if you want it,then they always wonder how those who are from poorer backgrounds never make it there..

the working class are exceptionally well catered for in Ireland when it comes to educating their kids, yes its a hard slog but Ireland is a very good place to easily up classes via cheap and affordable education for all classes. Theres no point getting pissed at the rich because they can do what they want, its nigh on impossible to prevent that unfortunately, however you should at least be happy that you and your kids can easily improve themselves.

Its about the only thing in this country that i actually think is fantastic.

mrgaa1

going back to the OP - would it not be possible for the glorious government to pass a bill that would ensure that striking during times when the country was on its knees would be outlawed and that anyone who attempted to do so would lose their jobs and someone else would be hired to take over their job. Why should unions hold the country to ransom when there is nothing to steal. Also perhaps the unions should be using their warchest to help top up some of their members wages etc... and then also why shouldn't the members be asking why they have so much.