Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland.

jimmmy

There was an interesting two page feature in Saturdays Irish independent, featuring interviews with six foreigners who work or had worked in the Irish public service. They all compared wages with the public sector wages in their own European countries, and all thought Irish wages astronomically high,( eg double) in hospitals, universities and other areas of the public service. Other perks like hours worked , holidays, pensions etc were all out of line - to the taxpayers expense - in Ireland. Even I was surprised at what they had to say. Anyone else see the article / admire their honesty ?

ronbyrne2005

Dont criticise nurses you baxtard, they look after the sick babies!!!!!! :mad:

lmimmfn

well if you have ~17% of the voting population in the civil service you only need to keep them happy and convince another 23% of the voting population to vote for your party to get/stay in government guaranteed( with an 80% voters turnout situation ).
Is it any wonder theyre paid so well, have such good pensions, job security and have unions with so much power that they can make to sure they dont budge on anything

Im not for bashing the public service, but cmon FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AARRRGH

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Dont criticise nurses you baxtard, they look after the sick babies!!!!!! :mad:

They'd do the job for free if they could! They only care about the children.

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

There was an interesting two page feature in Saturdays Irish independent,

Always a good source for unbiased, well-researched information.:rolleyes: Was it written by their restaurant critic or their soccer correspondent?

How much is a mortgage repayment in Finland & how much here?

alfranken

NewDubliner wrote: »

Always a good source for unbiased, well-researched information.:rolleyes: Was it written by their restaurant critic or their soccer correspondent?

How much is a mortgage repayment in Finland & how much here?

Stop bad mouthing Barry Egan and Smarty O'Ballsy

jimmmy

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Dont criticise nurses

Nobody is criticising them, not even the nurse from another EC country who could not and can not believe how much nurses are paid in this country....up to three times more than his own country. Criticing the pay day their unions have negiotaed with our govt is another thing though, esp when we are borrowing 25 or 26 billion a year. Don't shoot the messenger..

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

Don't shoot the messenger..

jimmmy...your question was

"Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland?"

One possible answer is that because the Irish private sector profiteered enormously in the housing market and the ambulance workers had to seek pay raises in order to be able to afford an over-priced private sector-built house.

Can you tell us who wrote the articles that you so admire, did they use their real names?

Diarmuid

NewDubliner wrote: »

How much is a mortgage repayment in Finland & how much here?

What's that got to do with anything?

Are you telling me if I take out a nice big mortgage I'm entitled to a bigger salary? Sh1t! I must have missed that memo! Who's got the number for AIB?

lmimmfn

NewDubliner wrote: »

One possible answer is that because the Irish private sector profiterred enormously in the housing market and the ambulance workers had to seek pay raises in order to be able to afford an over-priced private sector-built house

why? who said they needed to buy a house, they couldnt rent like the rest of us did due to the stupid prices of houses?
If they paid a fortune for a house thats their problem and their current negative equity.
Im not against ambulance drivers but common sense should prevail.

Bucklesman

The inflationary pressure of the property boom. Not that the Indo could be expected to understand that, of course.

NewDubliner

Diarmuid wrote: »

What's that got to do with anything?
Are you telling me if I take out a nice big mortgage I'm entitled to a bigger salary? Sh1t! I must have missed that memo! Who's got the number for AIB?

jimmmy, asked a question and we must help him find the answer.

Big mortgages to meet cost of grossly overpriced houses fuelled demand for more pay: yes or no?

tallaght01

What figures were they using for consultants' pay in Finland?

In Finland (and I think the rest of scandinavia) Your basic salary is advertised as the bones of your salary. But that only makes up about 50-60% of their wages.

I think consultants over there are on about 60k basic, but they earn roughly that again with other allowances.

That's for the basic week. They get extra again for overtime. Or they can just take that as time off.

Undoubted inflationary pressures on Irish wages. But would be interesting to see if they were comparing ambos' wages with the consulatants' actual pay.

P. Breathnach

NewDubliner wrote: »

jimmmy, asked a question and we must help him find the answer.

Big mortgages to meet cost of grossly overpriced houses fuelled demand for more pay: yes or no?

It's a mistake to make too strong a link between pay rates and mortgage repayments. The linkage that should be considered is that between pay and cost of living. If the nominal pay in Ireland is twice that in Country X, and price levels in Ireland are twice those in Country X, then the Irish employee and the employee in Country X are on a par: they enjoy the same standard of living.

That said, I certainly have the impression (it's an impression, so I am not linking to supporting evidence) that Irish workers have in recent years enjoyed a higher standard of living than those in other EU states. Our prices tend to be a good deal higher than in other places, but our pay levels have been a great deal higher. That differential seems to me to exist across both the public and the private sectors.

What say you jimmmy? Do you believe that Irish shop assistants and accounting technicians and motor mechanics and production operatives have been much higher paid than their counterparts elsewhere?

jmayo

Jimmy to answer your original question ...

Why should our ambulance drivers be paid more than hospital consultants in Finland ?

It's because they are ENTITLED to it.

How long have you being posting around here?
For God's sake you should know the answer by now

Idbatterim

can they not just hire civilians to be ambulance drivers? im sure a taxi driver would take up the offer, for about a quarter for what the current ambulance driver is getting!

ardmacha

There was an interesting two page feature in Saturdays Irish independent

was this is a magazine or in the regular paper and so on the web (for discussion purposes)?

In Finland (and I think the rest of scandinavia) Your basic salary is advertised as the bones of your salary. But that only makes up about 50-60% of their wages.

such arrangements have something going for them.

Paulzx

Idbatterim wrote: »

can they not just hire civilians to be ambulance drivers? im sure a taxi driver would take up the offer, for about a quarter for what the current ambulance driver is getting!

I wasn't aware that all our taxi drivers are qualified paramadics now.You learn something new every day

Idbatterim

right so I take it that the driver is also a paramedic! exscuse the ignorance but nothing, nothing would shock me here! including paying a paramedic to be a driver and just performing driving duties! incase any of the other paramedics needed a second opinion on the way back to the hospital!

Diarmuid

NewDubliner wrote: »

Big mortgages to meet cost of grossly overpriced houses fuelled demand for more pay: yes or no?

yes or no to what?

P. Breathnach wrote:

That differential seems to me to exist across both the public and the private sectors.

Probably depends on which part of the public sector. In the sectors which face competition for external suppliers then probably not much differential in salaries (or they would not be able to compete). To the parts of the private sector which were competing against local talent, then that was more likely inflated by credit (in your anecdotal/hypothetical scenario)

You can draw your own conclusions about the public sector.

NewDubliner

Diarmuid wrote: »

yes or no to what?

That people looked for higher wages to help meet the huge cost of buying a basic house.

Diarmuid

Paulzx wrote: »

I wasn't aware that all our taxi drivers are qualified paramadics now.You learn something new every day

I guess they could train up a good few more but the courses are controlled by the HSE

Diarmuid

NewDubliner wrote: »

That people looked for higher wages to help meet the huge cost of buying a basic house.

Sure. Or pay for a new car / holiday / apartment in Budapest.

House prices were high was because of all the money floating around, thanks to people over-reached themselves on credit, unimpeded by the banks or the government. Plenty blame to go around

BroomBurner

Idbatterim wrote: »

right so I take it that the driver is also a paramedic! exscuse the ignorance but nothing, nothing would shock me here! including paying a paramedic to be a driver and just performing driving duties! incase any of the other paramedics needed a second opinion on the way back to the hospital!

I thought everyone knew that all ambulance drivers were paramedics. They always need two people when responding to an incident, and if it's a particularly bad incident, two paramedics will be required. Seeing as they can't actually guess what the incident is going to be, two trained paramedics is the most cost-effective and safe way to work it.

Or would you perhaps like if the HSE took on someone only trained to drive, and had two paramedics in the back, further inflating the public sector payroll?

Paulzx

Idbatterim wrote: »

right so I take it that the driver is also a paramedic! exscuse the ignorance but nothing, nothing would shock me here! including paying a paramedic to be a driver and just performing driving duties! incase any of the other paramedics needed a second opinion on the way back to the hospital!

Please, please , please tell me you are taking the piss here. Having two paramedics on an ambo is now a waste of money? Oh help. This country is truly Fu*cked and i don't mean in an economic sense

NewDubliner

Diarmuid wrote: »

Sure. Or pay for a new car / holiday / apartment in Budapest.

Or, more likeley, to have just enough money to pay a huge mortgage for a basic, over-priced, private-sector-supplied house.

Heroditas

Paulzx wrote: »

I wasn't aware that all our taxi drivers are qualified paramadics now.You learn something new every day

Sure they're renowned as world-class economists, experts in all sports and have professorships in anthropology.
Working as paramedics? Piece of cake....

Diarmuid

What's the training required for a paramedic? Is this it? 28 weeks training + 1 year internship + driving licence. What's the average salary?

Diarmuid

NewDubliner wrote: »

Or, more likeley, to have just enough money to pay a huge mortgage for a basic, over-priced, private-sector-supplied house.

You must have a chip on your shoulder the size of Alaska.

Would you prefer to have a Department of House Building? Minister on 250k + unvouched expenses and the brickies won't lay a block for less than €20/block :rolleyes:

Dr Galen

you'll find the info on the standards and education here

ronbyrne2005

Diarmuid wrote: »

What's the training required for a paramedic? Is this it? 28 weeks training + 1 year internship + driving licence. What's the average salary?

Its great money. My father was a fireman and paramedic with Dublin Fire Brigade. Working unsocial hours got great money. He used to go in some christmas days at 6pm for night shift and not have much work to do and sleep most of night and get nearly a grand (gross) for shift!

TheInquisitor

NewDubliner wrote: »

Always a good source for unbiased, well-researched information.:rolleyes: Was it written by their restaurant critic or their soccer correspondent?

How much is a mortgage repayment in Finland & how much here?

Since we're both part of the european union the repayment has the same base rate. As of today the one month was .43 and the 3 month was .74 so feck all really if you had checked what the best mortgage was, you would have decided on a tracker. And be paying 1.43-1.73 % interest on your mortgage. There's on ly yourself to blame if you paid for an overpriced house

TheInquisitor

Bucklesman wrote: »

The inflationary pressure of the property boom. Not that the Indo could be expected to understand that, of course.

Excellent we're agreed, the boom caused a terrible rise in ridiculous public sector wages, luckily now we are having a massive contraction their wages will fall back into line...right?

NewDubliner

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Excellent we're agreed, the boom caused a terrible rise in ridiculous public sector wages, luckily now we are having a massive contraction their wages will fall back into line...right?

Only some wages have reduced.

Mortgage capital repayments have not gone down - perhaps we should follow the Latvian example and limit liability to the present-day value of the properties?

lmimmfn

NewDubliner wrote: »

Mortgage capital repayments have not gone down - perhaps we should follow the Latvian example and limit liability to the present-day value of the properties?

An even better solution would be to allow those with negative equity to extend their mortgage term if they cant meet repayments or worst case scenario allow them to pay off only the interest for a term( in the case of folk losing jobs etc. ).

Limiting liability would just mean the rest of us who were sensible and stood on the fence due to the insane house prices are getting done on tax increases.( Im not moaning about it overall but in the circumstances you shouldnt be punishing the sensible as it would leave us at a loss having being paying rent money when we could have bought a house at an insane value and expect others to bail us out later).

NewDubliner

lmimmfn wrote: »

you shouldnt be punishing the sensible

That's the job of NAMA.

TCP/IP_King

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

He used to go in some christmas days at 6pm for night shift and not have much work to do and sleep most of night and get nearly a grand (gross) for shift!

But sometimes this also happens to firemen

http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2007/sep/30/welding-sparks-caused-fire-that-killed-two-bray-fi/

and that's not part of your average private sector job spec.

ronbyrne2005

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

But sometimes this also happens to firemen

http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2007/sep/30/welding-sparks-caused-fire-that-killed-two-bray-fi/

and that's not part of your average private sector job spec.

Very very rare incidents. I cant think of any full time firemen/paramedics in Dublin killed in line of duty over past 30 years. Actually one died when he drove his ambulance into an open sewer while racing to an incident but thats like one in 30+years. Taxi driver is probably just as statistically dangerous. Same with Gardai, very safe compared to their international peers. In USA firemen are expected to go into fires even if theres no people in building while in Ireland thats not the case.

jmayo

Idbatterim wrote: »

right so I take it that the driver is also a paramedic! exscuse the ignorance but nothing, nothing would shock me here! including paying a paramedic to be a driver and just performing driving duties! incase any of the other paramedics needed a second opinion on the way back to the hospital!

Actually someone might be able to correct me on this but it wasn't solong ago that our ambulance staff were just glorified drivers AFAIK.
They weren't allow administer any drugs to casualties and I am not sure how that has changed ?

BroomBurner wrote: »

I thought everyone knew that all ambulance drivers were paramedics. They always need two people when responding to an incident, and if it's a particularly bad incident, two paramedics will be required. Seeing as they can't actually guess what the incident is going to be, two trained paramedics is the most cost-effective and safe way to work it.

Or would you perhaps like if the HSE took on someone only trained to drive, and had two paramedics in the back, further inflating the public sector payroll?

That would appear like a normal run of the mill decision for the HSE :rolleyes:

BroomBurner

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

In USA firemen are expected to go into fires even if theres no people in building while in Ireland thats not the case.

Try telling that to the families of the Bray firemen who lost their lives fighting a fire inside a disused factory

No matter what country you're in, working in the frontline services like the fire brigade, police, etc. is always going to have a more frightening aspect. It's not for everyone, hence why they are always chronicly understaffed.

TCP/IP_King

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Very very rare incidents.

Well this guy

http://www.irishfireservices.ie/pages/firestatistics.htm

tells us that there were, for example in 2000 in Dublin, [SIZE=-1]28,323 calls to the DFB. A lot more chances to put your life on the line[/SIZE] for someone else than the average taxi driver.

Not to mention the war zone that will occur in Dublin alone in 3 weeks time.

I've nothing to do with the DFB, I don't even know anyone in there, but this stuff alone make me think they're worth the money.

irish_bob

BroomBurner wrote: »

Try telling that to the families of the Bray firemen who lost their lives fighting a fire inside a disused factory

No matter what country you're in, working in the frontline services like the fire brigade, police, etc. is always going to have a more frightening aspect. It's not for everyone, hence why they are always chronicly understaffed.

applications for joining the guards are always full , this will be even more apparent in the next few years

BroomBurner

irish_bob wrote: »

applications for joining the guards are always full , this will be even more apparent in the next few years

Applications are always full, but many, many drop out when they realise the hard work you have to put in and the risks involved.

jmayo

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Very very rare incidents. I cant think of any full time firemen/paramedics in Dublin killed in line of duty over past 30 years. Actually one died when he drove his ambulance into an open sewer while racing to an incident but thats like one in 30+years. Taxi driver is probably just as statistically dangerous. Same with Gardai, very safe compared to their international peers. In USA firemen are expected to go into fires even if theres no people in building while in Ireland thats not the case.

Last Irish firemen casulaties would have been the two Bray part time firemen, Brian Murray and Mark O Shaughnessy, killed in Novemebr 2007.
The last garda casualty was Robert McCallion killed in Donegal in April by a couple of joyriding scumbags.

There is more to Ireland than just Dublin you know

irish_bob

BroomBurner wrote: »

Applications are always full, but many, many drop out when they realise the hard work you have to put in and the risks involved.

unless your stationed in a rough area , the job of a guard is a doss for the most part , a farmer or a builder is a much more dangerous job

Diarmuid

BroomBurner wrote: »

Applications are always full, but many, many drop out when they realise the hard work you have to put in and the risks involved.

What percentage?

Likewise care to present the proof that the firemen/nurses/paramedics are chronically understaffed?

ronbyrne2005

The union types tell ya that no one wanted to be in public service during boom but thats manure. A few friends applied for the DFB during the boom (circa 2004) and there was around 10,000 applications for a few hundred positions. Graduates started entering too as it was becoming better paid than grad science jobs. One girl is in DFB a few years after doing a degree in Analytical Science in DCU.

spank_inferno

To answer your question Jimmy, They get paid what they get paid because they can.

However no blame should rest on the workers themselves, If they are awarded pay increases, who are they to refuse?

Its the gutless shower of a FF government that have brought us to this situation.

Its strange that people think there is such a thing as a pay "negotiation" in the public sector?
How can it be a negotiation, when both the government and the unions are effectively on the same side awarding as much monies to each other as they feel they can get away with...... All in the name of the blessed "social partnership".

All the while no one looking out for the best interests of those that actualy foot the bill and create the nations wealth.


But I do want to say again, the paramedics do a good job and I dont begrudge them for their efforts.

NewDubliner

Diarmuid wrote: »

Likewise care to present the proof that the firemen/nurses/paramedics are chronically understaffed?

What are you suggesting? That salary rates should go up and down every day, subject to demand/availability, like a RyanAir fare?

Better again, maybe pay the guys minimum wage and they can haggle for a tip from the patients according to how distressed they are.:rolleyes:

BroomBurner

Diarmuid wrote: »

What percentage?

Likewise care to present the proof that the firemen/nurses/paramedics are chronically understaffed?

Couldn't tell you the percentages off-hand, but I'm sure they're available if you went looking. I can only comment on people I know who have been through the process and saw quite a lot of their group drop out or not accepted.

As for the proof of understaffing, please see any hospital in the country, please see waiting times, please see crime levels, please see blatant crime going on that can't be stopped due to understaffing/ineffectual deployment of staff, please see massive amounts of OT required for actual members of these services as the staff just aren't there. The evidence is around you if you care to look.

To my mind, the problem isn't so much with our front-line services, it's with the glut of admin staff in the background, in particular in the HSE. And I say this as a PS worker. I would rather swop 40% of the administrative staff in the HSE for nurses/doctors/paramedics/etc.

NewDubliner

BroomBurner wrote: »

it's with the glut of admin staff in the background, in particular in the HSE.

Is some of that because of the huge amount of admin work needed to cover the hospitals against malpractice suits?