ESRI Oct 9th: public/private sector pay difference of 26% based on job characteristic

cyclopath2001

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Not really. One notable effect of the boom was of people taking on loans as high as they could possibly get - affordability didn't come into it.

I don't deny that what you say is correct, but I think you should acknowledge that the more we pay people, the more they will bid against each other.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

That might also describe a couple of well known millionaires.

Perhaps the more sensible ones. My remark was intended to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek. We could also describe an ordinary worker as one that does not own a newspaper, a bank or who is not a member of the NAMA club.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

TEvery party has an Irish language name. Some might choose to go with their English name first and foremost, but nonetheless. In any case our name was selected for a very specific reason.

As a branding choice I find it off-putting, but maybe you're not counting on my vote.

Amhran Nua

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I don't deny that what you say is correct, but I think you should acknowledge that the more we pay people, the more they will bid against each other.

You mean the more banks will lend people regardless of their pay, the more they will bid against each other.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

As a branding choice I find it off-putting, but maybe you're not counting on my vote.

Fianna Fail gets its name from the national anthem, Amhran na BhFiann, so Amhran Nua is the natural counterpoint to that. Above and beyond that however I make no apologies whatsoever for the choice of language in the name.

lmimmfn

Compare like for like? get real, i know where id prefer to be working now and it doesnt begin with private

Rob67

irish_bob wrote: »

soliders the world over tend to be under paid , i disagree with this strongly , how much does an irish soldier earn btw

Depends on your rank, which you have to earn through bloody hard work on specific courses and must have pre-qualifying criteria completed before you can apply to undergo them. All promotional courses have pass/fail requirements and there is no guarantee you will pass, even if you complete the course, there are high standards. Added to this, you are not guaranteed to be promoted either if you've successfully completed said course. Competition for higher rank vacancies is strong and determined. There are increments but only for the first four years in which you occupy that rank, after that it stops.
As regards pay rates: http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/eb9a86f46ada6f4280256c61003e1c58/eced65584861ba7680256c7e00421c7e/$FILE/ATTGAC4O/A.pdf

To maintain context, in the allowances section not every member gets all those allowances! You have to be certified to be entitled to a particular allowance and you cannot be in receipt of more than one allowance at a time. The only exception is Aid to the Civil Power (which is paid in very specific and limited circumstances) and Security Duty Allowance (same rules apply).

I expect that there will be those who believe that DF personnel are paid too much, in some cases I would agree. But it must be understood that the personnel who serve are very professional and have proven themselves beyond worth in overseas missions to other nations. At home they are the only organisation that can be counted upon to do their duty when others are not available. Traditionally the DF are the last ones to be thought of and the first ones to be cut out, The DF was the only organisation to be cut by almost 2,000 personnel during the boom years and still required to carry the workload, which has since increased.

So, before someone goes on a tirade, castigating serving members with the usual anti-PS rhetoric, think about the cuts they have undergone already and will face in the near future as the easy target.

irish_bob

Rob67 wrote: »

Depends on your rank, which you have to earn through bloody hard work on specific courses and must have pre-qualifying criteria completed before you can apply to undergo them. All promotional courses have pass/fail requirements and there is no guarantee you will pass, even if you complete the course, there are high standards. Added to this, you are not guaranteed to be promoted either if you've successfully completed said course. Competition for higher rank vacancies is strong and determined. There are increments but only for the first four years in which you occupy that rank, after that it stops.
As regards pay rates: http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/eb9a86f46ada6f4280256c61003e1c58/eced65584861ba7680256c7e00421c7e/$FILE/ATTGAC4O/A.pdf

To maintain context, in the allowances section not every member gets all those allowances! You have to be certified to be entitled to a particular allowance and you cannot be in receipt of more than one allowance at a time. The only exception is Aid to the Civil Power (which is paid in very specific and limited circumstances) and Security Duty Allowance (same rules apply).

I expect that there will be those who believe that DF personnel are paid too much, in some cases I would agree. But it must be understood that the personnel who serve are very professional and have proven themselves beyond worth in overseas missions to other nations. At home they are the only organisation that can be counted upon to do their duty when others are not available. Traditionally the DF are the last ones to be thought of and the first ones to be cut out, The DF was the only organisation to be cut by almost 2,000 personnel during the boom years and still required to carry the workload, which has since increased.

So, before someone goes on a tirade, castigating serving members with the usual anti-PS rhetoric, think about the cuts they have undergone already and will face in the near future as the easy target.

our armed forces are but a segment of our public sector , just because i believe guards and nurses and teachers are over paid doesnt mean i believe soliders are

cyclopath2001

Amhran Nua wrote: »

You mean the more banks will lend people regardless of their pay, the more they will bid against each other.

Or the more people think they can pay back based on their pay, the more they'll decide to borrow.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Fianna Fail gets its name from the national anthem, Amhran na BhFiann, so Amhran Nua is the natural counterpoint to that. Above and beyond that however I make no apologies whatsoever for the choice of language in the name.

No need to apologise for using your chosen language, it's up to you what kind of voter you want to attract.

Rob67

irish_bob wrote: »

our armed forces are but a segment of our public sector , just because i believe guards and nurses and teachers are over paid doesnt mean i believe soliders are

I wasn't having a go at you personally, believe me! Sorry, if that's the way it came over. It's just that a certain amount of me, even though I've left the DF, still feels a part of it and therefore very defensive as a result of recent attacks from certain quarters as the DF is, by default, part of the larger PS. So, to a certain extent I felt beholden to try and redress any misconceptions about the DF before myth becomes 'fact'.

irish_bob

Rob67 wrote: »

I wasn't having a go at you personally, believe me! Sorry, if that's the way it came over. It's just that a certain amount of me, even though I've left the DF, still feels a part of it and therefore very defensive as a result of recent attacks from certain quarters as the DF is, by default, part of the larger PS. So, to a certain extent I felt beholden to try and redress any misconceptions about the DF before myth becomes 'fact'.

i didnt point to soliders pay for cutting as i have no clue what they earn , i believe nurses and guards earn too much as i believe over a grand a week on average is too much for those with such modest ability , that and the fact that we cant afford it and they wouldnt get within an asses roar of such wages in the private sector ( including during the boom ) or overseas

Amhran Nua

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Or the more people think they can pay back based on their pay, the more they'll decide to borrow.

They didn't need to pay it back, they had positive equity and double digit annual price rises to take care of that.

Godge

Diarmuid wrote: »

I don't think we need to retred over the same ground again. It's just an answer to the union talking point that they didn't compare like with like. Well now they did.

When you read the full report you realise that they still haven't compared like with like. There are several flaws in the methodology.

Firstly, as I have pointed out in previous numerous threads, the private sector consists of employees and self-employed while the public sector has employees only. You need to include the earnings of the self-employed in the private sector in the comparison. This is particularly so when you are looking over a period of time. The structure of the private sector has changed, particularly in the construction sector where the proportion of self-employed is far greater than 20 years ago.

Secondly, the occupation categories used by the study for the private sector are not directly comparable with the public sector. This is particularly true for the education sector comparison where the greatest disparity lies.

I could go on about not taking the pension levy into account and bald statements that most public servants leaving their jobs will statistically work in smaller companies (even though there is no empirical evidence to support this) I could go into further details on other aspects of the report's flaws but I am sure some of the contributers to this thread have already fallen asleep reading the above.

westtip

gerry28 wrote: »

I agree, this does not take the pension levy into consideration. So its pretty even then with the private sector.

You are joking mate. Public sector workers on permanent contracts in particularachers haven't got a clue what its like in the real world - a primary teacher in Ireland with about 20 years experience and maybe a couple of posts of responsibility will be on over 60K a year - its a joke - in the UK the salaries are literally half of this amount we massively overpay teachers - they are living in cloud cuckoo land...I know there will be a load of abuse for saying this but teachers in Ireland are the most overpaid in Europe - we cannot afford it and their salaries need to be cut by about 40%.

ardmacha

Secondly, the occupation categories used by the study for the private sector are not directly comparable with the public sector. This is particularly true for the education sector comparison where the greatest disparity lies.

It may be possible to compare manual local authority workers with equivalent employees of contractors etc. But there are no private universities and the private third level is a pretty low end activity with different objectives.

daithicarr

Not only do people in the public sector have better pay and pensions but most importantly they have excellent job security, the risk of losing your job is nil.

job security is a huge benefit, despite working my ass off and coming in doing free over time i lost my job, if i worked in the public sector as did feck all work, i could still go home comfortable in the knowledge my job was totaly secure.

nobody want job or pay cuts, but im sick of hearing from civil servants how they have it bad and are being picked on. Given the current economic conditions they have an extremely envious position , even without the economic down turn they do much better tha their private sector equivalants

If the private sector which pays their bills is making considerably less money than it was, then surely common sense indicates cuts are needed in the public sector as well

murphaph

daithicarr wrote: »

If the private sector which pays their bills is making considerably less money than it was, then surely common sense indicates cuts are needed in the public sector as well

Not in cloud union land mate.

daithicarr

Im only annoyed because they stopped recruiting, I wouldnt mind a job in the public service, I wonder would I start banging on about how unfairly and unjustly we are being treated

jimmmy

daithicarr wrote: »

I wouldnt mind a job in the public service

The best career choice of all. More security, better pay, flexitime, less working hours, more holidays, less stress, better pension.

gerry28

westtip wrote: »

You are joking mate. Public sector workers on permanent contracts in particularachers haven't got a clue what its like in the real world - a primary teacher in Ireland with about 20 years experience and maybe a couple of posts of responsibility will be on over 60K a year - its a joke - in the UK the salaries are literally half of this amount we massively overpay teachers - they are living in cloud cuckoo land...I know there will be a load of abuse for saying this but teachers in Ireland are the most overpaid in Europe - we cannot afford it and their salaries need to be cut by about 40%.

Westtip i said this in reference to the civil service and local authority staff being 9% to 12% higher (before the pension levy). I never mentioned teachers... they are indeed very well paid.

In relation to your statement about public servants not having a clue about the real world - i don't agree,
I worked for years in the private sector and i know well what it is like. Furthermore i was on a 3 monthly contract for 3 and a half years when I started in the public service. I had a mortgage and commitments. I know very well the stresses of being in that situation.

lmimmfn

gerry28 wrote: »

Westtip i said this in reference to the civil service and local authority staff being 9% to 12% higher (before the pension levy). I never mentioned teachers... they are indeed very well paid.

In relation to your statement about public servants not having a clue about the real world - i don't agree,
I worked for years in the private sector and i know well what it is like. Furthermore i was on a 3 monthly contract for 3 and a half years when I started in the public service. I had a mortgage and commitments. I know very well the stresses of being in that situation.

I do agree completely, well if your pay gets cut by 20% you're completely welcome to rejoin us in the private sector!
Hows about work stress on top of private life stress!!!!!!!!!!!